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Old 08-27-2012   #241
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Another thing I don't understand about this whole "he's doing what's expected of him" argument..

I'll go ahead and assume he's doing that.. However how does that prove that the Texans wouldn't like more from that position? Chuck Hayes was one of my favorite Rockets and he also did everything that was expected of him, because like Walter he was also limited. They certainly didn't expect him to lead the team in paint points or blocks.. but that doesn't mean they were content or weren't looking for a upgrade. Walter is the same way. He's doing everything they expect out of him most likely, because that's all they think he can do. He's being put in a role that he can contribute in, because if they tried to give him a bigger role he most likely wouldn't succeed.
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Old 08-27-2012   #242
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
Another thing I don't understand about this whole "he's doing what's expected of him" argument..

I'll go ahead and assume he's doing that.. However how does that prove that the Texans wouldn't like more from that position? Chuck Hayes was one of my favorite Rockets and he also did everything that was expected of him, because like Walter he was also limited. They certainly didn't expect him to lead the team in paint points or blocks.. but that doesn't mean they were content or weren't looking for a upgrade. Walter is the same way. He's doing everything they expect out of him most likely, because that's all they think he can do.
That's possible. Hell, I'll even go with probable. But that doesn't answer the two questions I keep asking:

1.) If he's been open, as has been reported by 76Texan, why are they not targeting him more often?

2.) If this is the role they envision for the #2 WR, even to a somewhat lesser degree, do we see Jean and/or Martin doing those sorts of things?

See, you've basically decided, based on nothing. I'm still trying to understand, based on what used to be nothing, but now is actual game tape. That's really our only divide. The results may temper my expectations, or they may bolster my suspicion that Walter is just not getting the job done.
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Old 08-27-2012   #243
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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
That's possible. Hell, I'll even go with probable. But that doesn't answer the two questions I keep asking:

1.) If he's been open, as has been reported by 76Texan, why are they not targeting him more often?

2.) If this is the role they envision for the #2 WR, even to a somewhat lesser degree, do we see Jean and/or Martin doing those sorts of things?

See, you've basically decided, based on nothing. I'm still trying to understand, based on what used to be nothing, but now is actual game tape. That's really our only divide. The results may temper my expectations, or they may bolster my suspicion that Walter is just not getting the job done.
The "this is what the texans want from a number two" thing is a fallacy. It's a fairytale made up to justify Kevin Walter's diminishing returns in this offense.

Kevin Walter used to catch a lot of passes for a lot of yards. Did their philosophy change or has Kevin Walter just not been as good as he had been?

When kubiak first got here he went out and got Eric moulds for the number two role. Was he supposed to be the "blocking wr"?

If you are going to start Kevin Walter and not expect or even want him to catch passed when he is "consistently getting open", why are you drafting two young wr's to pair up with a promising young player in Jean?

Why would you ask a player to take a pay cut that is doing everything you want them to?

I've heard all kind if stories to explain this, but what I find most likely is that he has not been as good as he used to be and therefore they reduced his salary.


Geez...you guys make Walter sound like one if the best wr's in the game...great hands, runs great routes, "mid 4.4 speed", gets open all the time AND draws triple teams to get other guys open....plus he blocks like a TE an knows exactly what to do and where to be....

Are we talking about kw or someone I created on madden?? Screw Kevin. From now on he is Super Walter. Super Walter to the rescue.

He does all that and yet his salary was reduced.

I can see it now: "hey super...we know you are doing everything we want you do do, you're one of the hardest workers we have, you are filling your role EXACTLY how we envisioned......but we're going to have to dock your pay. We realize there are other guys that don't work as hard and aren't filling their roles like you, but since we know you aren't spiteful and envious we will dock your pay instead of theirs....deal?"

So on top of bring fast, strong, fundamentally sound, hard working, able to get open a bunch and draw double and Tripple teams hes also enough of a team player to take a pay cut so some other not as deserving player can keep their salary.

Super Walter to the f'n rescue.
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Old 08-27-2012   #244
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Geez...you guys make Walter sound like one if the best wr's in the game...great hands, runs great routes, "mid 4.4 speed", gets open all the time AND draws triple teams to get other guys open....plus he blocks like a TE an knows exactly what to do and where to be....

Are we talking about kw or someone I created on madden??
I think I've made it clear that I don't think that.

Answer question #1 from the post above, please.
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Old 08-27-2012   #245
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

76 or Dutch ... can you post the wide view of Martin's TD catch against the Aints ?
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Old 08-27-2012   #246
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I think I've made it clear that I don't think that.

Answer question #1 from the post above, please.
How about he's not getting open as much as 76 has led you to believe????

Seriously?

We have a guy that is consistently getting open and we make a conscious decision not to throw him the ball?

How about, no.


That makes absolutely no sense.

First, it was he's not getting open because that's not his role.

Now, he actually does get open a bunch but schaub and kubiak don't care. They are not going to throw the ball to him and instead settle for punts, field goals and whatever else they can scrounge up.
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Old 08-27-2012   #247
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rey View Post
How about he's not getting open as much as 76 has led you to believe????
OK, so you think 76Texan is not telling the truth. Fair enough. I want to see someone like you, who holds that belief, post some evidence from the All-22. That's pretty much what I've been saying for a while now.

Quote:
First, it was he's not getting open because that's not his role.

And that was, as I have made abundantly clear, speculation and conjecture based on basically nothing. NOW THAT WE HAVE SOMEONE POSTING FEEDBACK FROM THE ALL-22, it seems that the evidence has changed. Unlike some of the posters here, my opinions change with evidence. All I'm really asking for is some evidence to support your assertion so that I can continue to shape my opinion.

Sheesh, you wouldn't think getting your point across would be this difficult. As I said earlier, I plan on getting the All-22 soon, so I'll be going through some games as well.
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Old 08-27-2012   #248
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rey View Post
How about he's not getting open as much as 76 has led you to believe????

Seriously?

We have a guy that is consistently getting open and we make a conscious decision not to throw him the ball?

How about, no.


That makes absolutely no sense.

First, it was he's not getting open because that's not his role.

Now, he actually does get open a bunch but schaub and kubiak don't care. They are not going to throw the ball to him and instead settle for punts, field goals and whatever else they can scrounge up.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/footb...ers/56671564/1

"If you ask anyone in our locker room who's the most underrated player, the most important player or the unsung hero of our team, it's Kevin," Texans quarterback Matt Schaub said. "Every time, hands down. No question."


While the statistics might ebb in one direction or the other, to Schaub they represent balance.
"We have a ton of weapons, and I don't think people really see that," he said. "They see a passing game, not an offense. They don't see the total package.
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Old 08-27-2012   #249
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Quote:
Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
OK, so you think 76Texan is not telling the truth.
No, I didn't say that.


This is almost like someone telling me they saw a flying pig...they say that they actually saw it...with their own two eyes

Maybe you really think you saw a pig flying...But I don't have to see what you saw to conclude that a pig didn't fly.
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Old 08-27-2012   #250
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
76 or Dutch ... can you post the wide view of Martin's TD catch against the Aints ?
Maybe Dutch can do it.

Walter was in the right slot and Martin was wide right.

Martin ran a quick slant in.

Walter ran a quick out and pick-off the LCB.
This springs KMart free to make the catch.

Why not the role reversal?
You will have to ask Kubiak.

Personally, I'm thinking, anybody - even a rookie - can run a quick slant and catch the easy pass when he's wide open.

It takes an experience WR to run the pick as not to be called Offensive PI.
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Old 08-27-2012   #251
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
As a draft guy, I must note that I don't "believe" in all the combine or pro day numbers (especially the pro days).

The tracks are not always the same.
The wind factor, the gears, etc.

The main idea is that you have to look at how fast the guy run a certain route on the actual playing field.

Walter is neither fast nor slow.
But he's fast enough to burn a DB (who may have some cushion on him) due to his good route running.

That two-man route example I had in screen shots was a good example.
I don't know if it's still there at photobucket; I haven't post anything there for a long time.
Having another KJ moment?
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Old 08-27-2012   #252
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Quote:
Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
OK, so you think 76Texan is not telling the truth. Fair enough. I want to see someone like you, who holds that belief, post some evidence from the All-22. That's pretty much what I've been saying for a while now.

But 76Texans hasn't posted any "proof" other than saying what he "saw" on the All 22.

I'm not calling 76 a liar, I respect his opinions & the work he puts in to back them up.

But this time it's just not adding up. Our most sure handed WR gets open all the time, but he's so far down on the progression that he rarely gets thrown to.... Jacoby gets targeted more when Andre is out....

I'm just finding it all hard to believe.
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Old 08-27-2012   #253
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Maybe Dutch can do it.

Walter was in the right slot and Martin was wide right.

Martin ran a quick slant in.

Walter ran a quick out and pick-off the LCB.
This springs KMart free to make the catch.

Why not the role reversal?
You will have to ask Kubiak.

Personally, I'm thinking, anybody - even a rookie - can run a quick slant and catch the easy pass when he's wide open.

It takes an experience WR to run the pick as not to be called Offensive PI.

Thats an accurate description of the play .... Because of the route Walter ran , busting the coverage , the DB's looked like keystone cops , Martin had a gimmie TD.

Seems to me we can point to a couple situations like this involving Walter every game.
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Old 08-27-2012   #254
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

I was watching the Tennesse game in week 7.


Here are some of the observations.

RUSHING ATT YDS AVG LG TD
A.Foster 25 115 4.6 17 2
B.Tate 15 104 6.9 24 0
Total 47 222 4.7 24 2

PASSING ATT CMP YDS SK/YD TD LG IN RT
M.Schaub 23 18 296 0/0 2 78 0 147.7

PASS RECEIVING TAR REC YDS AVG LG TD
A.Foster 5 5 119 23.8 78 1
O.Daniels 5 4 71 17.8 34 0
K.Walter 4 3 35 11.7 20
J.Dreessen 2 2 31 15.5 21 1
J.Jones 4 2 27 13.5 20 0
D.Mason 1 1 7 7.0 7 0
B.Johnson 1 1 6 6.0 6 0

Zero sack, 2 QB Hurries, No PD agaisnt Schaub

.
First Quarter

1-10-HST 20 (15:00) A.Foster right tackle to HST 21 for 1 yard (C.Finnegan).
12 personnel.
Lined up outside OD
Down block on his man.

2-9-HST 21 (14:22) A.Foster right guard to HST 28 for 7 yards (S.Smith; J.McCourty).
21 personnel
Lined up in left slot block downfield

3-2-HST 28 (13:43) A.Foster left tackle to HST 27 for -1 yards (S.Smith).
NILU = Not in line-up

4-3-HST 27 (13:17) (Punt formation) B.Hartmann punts 57 yards to TEN 16, Center-J.Weeks. M.Mariani pushed ob at TEN 34 for 18 yards (J.Dreessen).

.
Houston Texans at 10:42

1-10-HST 20 (10:42) A.Foster left end to HST 36 for 16 yards (M.Griffin). R1
21 personnel
Lined up on as weakside TE
Down block on WDE to allow LT Brown to pull.

1-10-HST 36 (10:09) M.Schaub pass incomplete deep right to K.Walter.
21 personnel
Lined up wide right
Double move, had half a step on LCB.
Pass was out of bound.
May or may not be able to pull in the catch (if Schaub had thrown a good pass);
CB may or may not be able to make a play.
Not quite open; but a good pass and a great catch can make thing happen here.

2-10-HST 36 (10:02) M.Schaub pass incomplete deep right to J.Jones [J.Jones]
12 personnel
Lined up outside left.
Run deep out route (off side not in play).
Was open, but Schaub had intended to roll to the other side from the start.

3-10-HST 36 (9:55) (Shotgun) M.Schaub pass incomplete deep left to J.Jones.
11 personnel.
Lined up wide right.
Ran a deep in;
Great separation; wide open.
Too bad, Schaub went to JJ all the way.
He was open, too (not as much as Walter) but quite open.
Pass was high (slight pressure).

(9:49) (Punt formation) B.Hartmann punts
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Old 08-27-2012   #255
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Houston Texans at 8:43

1-10-HST 8 (8:43) A.Foster right tackle to HST 12 for 4 yards (J.Babineaux).
21 Personnel
Right slot.
Need to do a better job blocking his man downfield.

2-6-HST 12 (8:07) M.Schaub pass short left to J.Jones ran ob at HST 19 for 7 yards. P2
21 P (P=personnel)
Left slot
Ran a Sluggo, took away the single deep safety (double coverage).

Schaub went with JJ on the side line (same side); RCB gave too much cushion to JJ.


1-10-HST 19 (7:44) M.Schaub pass short middle to A.Foster to HST 25 for 6 yards (W.Witherspoon).
NILU

2-4-HST 25 (7:05) J.Jones left end pushed ob at HST 21 for -4 yards (C.Finnegan).
NILU


3-8-HST 21 (6:29) (Shotgun) M.Schaub pass short left to A.Foster to HST 47 for 26 yards (B.Ruud). P3
20 P
Right slot
Slow developing comebacker. Looks like he was open late (not his fault).
Schaub went to Foster on the open check down.

1-10-HST 47 (5:47) B.Tate left end pushed ob at TEN 42 for 11 yards (M.Griffin). R4
PENALTY on TEN-W.Witherspoon, Unnecessary Roughness, 15 yards, enforced at TEN 42. X5

21 P
Slot right block downfield on safety

1-10-TEN 27 (5:25) B.Tate left tackle to TEN 24 for 3 yards (D.Ball).
Cut block on off side DE


2-7-TEN 24 (4:43) A.Foster right end to TEN 19 for 5 yards (B.Ruud).
12 P
Good downblock

3-2-TEN 19 (4:00) A.Foster up the middle to TEN 16 for 3 yards (B.Ruud). R6
NILU


1-10-TEN 16 (3:24) B.Tate right end to TEN 17 for -1 yards (J.Casey).

nilu

2-11-TEN 17 (2:40) M.Schaub pass short right to A.Foster to TEN 12 for 5 yards (J.McCourty; C.Finnegan).
PENALTY on HST-D.Brown, Illegal Use of Hands, 10 yards, enforced at TEN 17 - No Play.
nilu

2-21-TEN 27 (2:16) (Shotgun) M.Schaub pass incomplete short left to O.Daniels [W.Witherspoon].
nilu

3-21-TEN 27 (2:11) (Shotgun) A.Foster up the middle to TEN 14 for 13 yards (M.Griffin).
Block downfield

4-8-TEN 14 (1:29) (Field Goal formation) N.Rackers 32 yard field goal is GOOD,
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Old 08-27-2012   #256
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Second Quarter

Houston Texans at 10:53

1-10-HST 13 (10:53) M.Schaub pass deep left to O.Daniels pushed ob at HST 47 for 34 yards (J.Babineaux). P7
21 personnel
Cut block WDE to allow Schaub to roll out and complete the pass.
Nice block.

1-10-HST 47 (10:23) A.Foster left guard to TEN 46 for 7 yards (J.Babineaux).
Block DF (Downfield)

2-3-TEN 46 (9:47) A.Foster up the middle to TEN 36 for 10 yards (M.Griffin). R8
Block DF

1-10-TEN 36 (9:09) B.Tate right tackle to TEN 33 for 3 yards (B.Ruud).

nilu

2-7-TEN 33 (8:33) M.Schaub pass short middle to O.Daniels to TEN 23 for 10 yards (W.Witherspoon). P9
PENALTY on TEN-A.Ayers, Unnecessary Roughness, 11 yards, enforced at TEN 23. X10
nilu

1-10-TEN 12 (8:07) A.Foster right end to TEN 10 for 2 yards (J.McCourty).
Timeout #1 by HST at 07:29.

Down block

2-8-TEN 10 (7:29) M.Schaub pass short left to J.Dreessen for 10 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
12 P
Ran Clear out route to the deep left end zone.
Dreessen was left alone.
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Old 08-27-2012   #257
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
But 76Texans hasn't posted any "proof" other than saying what he "saw" on the All 22.
I never used the word proof. Whether I think, like Rey, that 76Texan has no clue what he's looking at or whether I think he's the best film analyst on the board, at least he's putting something out there with a little backing. No one else has.
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Old 08-27-2012   #258
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

You guys do know that NFL.com has highlights of every game, especially touchdown plays, right? Here's a link to the Texans/Saints highlights, I believe you can see the play you're talking about around the 20 second mark:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...nts-highlights

I'll post something awesome in the graphics and tech section in the near future this week. Just wait...

Edit: nevermind, here's the play by itself:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-presea...-Martin-for-TD
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Old 08-27-2012   #259
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

That's all I have for now.

Walter was clearly open 3 times without the ball going to him.
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Old 08-27-2012   #260
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
You guys do know that NFL.com has highlights of every game, especially touchdown plays, right? Here's a link to the Texans/Saints highlights, I believe you can see the play you're talking about around the 20 second mark:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...nts-highlights

I'll post something awesome in the graphics and tech section in the near future this week. Just wait...

Edit: nevermind, here's the play by itself:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-presea...-Martin-for-TD
lol.

THAT'S why KW is the #2. He's able to pick and not get called for it. He pretty much blew the defender right off KMart's back.
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