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Old 08-21-2012   #141
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Why? Did he royally screw up during the preseason game VS the 49ers? I haven't watched them play yet but, I think Walter has secured the #2 spot considering he has stepped up during critical moments.
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Old 08-21-2012   #142
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Why? Did he royally screw up during the preseason game VS the 49ers? I haven't watched them play yet but, I think Walter has secured the #2 spot considering he has stepped up during critical moments.
By stepped up in critical moments you mean ran a slant route uncovered caught a pass that I could have caught and dove backwards in the end zone,
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Old 08-21-2012   #143
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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The fact that Walter is the best guy that he have ever had behind AJ is just illustrates how poorly of a job we've done at developing talent behind him during his career and that's not even a knock on Walter.
I think I agree with this, and the reason why: AJ is so freaking amazing...a head coach is going to roll with that and utilize guys like Walter behind AJ. Plus, the TE options increase/enhance AJ's production value.

I give props to Kubiak for going after two WRs in this past draft, and I think he nailed the Keshawn Martin pick. He's going to be the next big thing here, IMO.
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Old 08-21-2012   #144
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

I like Kevin Walter...he's a very hard working guy, seems to run the right routes, blocks well til the whistle and is usually an automatic catch if thrown to... I know he does the things Kubiak likes and all, but the guy averaged 41 yds per game last year with AJ out and Schaub in... Jacoby averaged 47 yds per game with AJ out and Schaub in, finished with more total yards than Walter and was released after fumbling a punt for the first time in a couple of years...

Now, I don't think that he "can go sit on the bench", but I think he can for sure be weeded out this season...
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Old 08-21-2012   #145
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by drunkcookie View Post
I like Kevin Walter...he's a very hard working guy, seems to run the right routes, blocks well til the whistle and is usually an automatic catch if thrown to... I know he does the things Kubiak likes and all, but the guy averaged 41 yds per game last year with AJ out and Schaub in... Jacoby averaged 47 yds per game with AJ out and Schaub in, finished with more total yards than Walter and was released after fumbling a punt for the first time in a couple of years...

Now, I don't think that he "can go sit on the bench", but I think he can for sure be weeded out this season...
Something funny about this post... when I was looking up the stats for Walter and Jacoby I was using my phone to do so... looked up Walter's stats and jotted 'em down...even looked at AJ's stats (105 yds per game average first three games last year, BTW)... got to Jacoby's stats and my service "dropped"...
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Old 08-21-2012   #146
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
talk about manipulating stats... Did I ever say anything about McCaffery's age compared to Walter's? Nope. What I was doing was debunking the myth that Kubiak's system makes it impossible to have a "batman and robin" type duo at the WR position.

For three straight seasons (1998-2000) which covered the span of two championships the broncos had two 1,000 yard receivers. Here are the type of #s Smith and McCaffrey were able to have under Kubiak.

Rod Smith
1998- 1,222 rec yards
1999- 1,020 rec yards
2000- 1,602 rec yards

Ed McCaffrey
1998- 1,053 rec yards
1999- 1,018 rec yards
2000- 1,317 rec yards

That's three straight seasons that two WRs have had seasons unlike any season Walter has been able to have... and they did it on the same field.

P.S.

Will people stop the "Madden and fantasy football" crap. It has nothing to do with my opinion.

1. I don't play Madden... really don't play video games.
2. I have only played three seasons of FF and haven't played this last 2 seasons.

My opinion is strictly based on what I see other teams trotting out at #2. They actually have talent that eventually can grow to be their #1. Just look inside our own division. The Colts went from Harrison to Wayne and to Garcon. Look at the steelers, Chargers, Packers, and so on.

The fact that Walter is the best guy that we have ever had behind AJ just illustrates how poorly of a job we've done at developing talent behind him during his career and that's not even a knock on Walter.
CB, please re-read my posts carefully.

What I really like for you to do is to go to profootball reference and check out those 3 years from 1998 to 2000.

See how many attempts the Broncos QBs had in those years.
Check to see how many passes their #3 and #4 caught, how many their major threats out of the backfield caught.

Then you will see that the make-up of the Broncos teams in those years were very different from that of the Texans of late.

Their #3' best season in those years were like 4 catches;
their RB' best season was like 23 catches.

With more pass attempts (than the Texans had last year) and very little contriubution from those other positions, you can be sure that more passes were thrown McCaffrey's way.

And like I said, you can only look at what Walter does up to 2011 (when he was 30) and compare it to McCaffrey up to the same age (1998).
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Old 08-21-2012   #147
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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I think I agree with this, and the reason why: AJ is so freaking amazing...a head coach is going to roll with that and utilize guys like Walter behind AJ. Plus, the TE options increase/enhance AJ's production value.

I give props to Kubiak for going after two WRs in this past draft, and I think he nailed the Keshawn Martin pick. He's going to be the next big thing here, IMO.
I just have a hard time giving Gary "props" on going after WRs this draft. It's just like the lack of production for years at safety that was killing this defense. He doesn't make a change until it is glaringly evident something has to be done to shore up the position(s). Difference is AJ (at least when healthy) has covered for the lack of anything beyond the spot and the offense has been varied enough to cover up for the lack of production at the position.

Posey is starting to look like JJ 2.0; another project who we all have to hope will work out and will have a fairly high round draft pick investment to keep him around.

However, as I criticize, I do have to give Kubiak/Smith credit for Martin and picking Jean as an UDFA. Both looks like gamers in PS at least.
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Old 08-21-2012   #148
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Originally Posted by Goldensilence View Post

Posey is starting to look like JJ 2.0; another project who we all have to hope will work out and will have a fairly high round draft pick investment to keep him around
Way too early for all of that...u don't draft a guy in the 3rd round and "expect" him to come in and take #2/#3 reps off the bat in preseason...

Looks like they did very well on Martin, though...love it... Hope that holds up...
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Old 08-21-2012   #149
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by drunkcookie View Post
I like Kevin Walter...he's a very hard working guy, seems to run the right routes, blocks well til the whistle and is usually an automatic catch if thrown to... I know he does the things Kubiak likes and all, but the guy averaged 41 yds per game last year with AJ out and Schaub in... Jacoby averaged 47 yds per game with AJ out and Schaub in, finished with more total yards than Walter and was released after fumbling a punt for the first time in a couple of years...

Now, I don't think that he "can go sit on the bench", but I think he can for sure be weeded out this season...
Okay.. I admit, I should've went with another title.. I got a little excited after watching Martin and Jean. Who look like the top prospects we've had at the position since Andre... and unlike Jacoby, they actually look like WRs and not just a athlete trying to play the position.

There's still a place for Walter, but as a #2 I think it's time to reach back and pass the baton off.
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Old 08-21-2012   #150
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
Okay.. I admit, I should've went with another title.. I got a little excited after watching Martin and Jean. Who look like the top prospects we've had at the position since Andre... and unlike Jacoby, they actually look like WRs and not just a athlete trying to play the position.

There's still a place for Walter, but as a #2 I think it's time to reach back and pass the baton off.
I think we'll see Walter lose snaps over the course of the year and will be Billy Miller'd after this season if the others progress like it looks like they might.
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Old 08-21-2012   #151
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by Goldensilence View Post
I just have a hard time giving Gary "props" on going after WRs this draft. It's just like the lack of production for years at safety that was killing this defense. He doesn't make a change until it is glaringly evident something has to be done to shore up the position(s). Difference is AJ (at least when healthy) has covered for the lack of anything beyond the spot and the offense has been varied enough to cover up for the lack of production at the position.

Posey is starting to look like JJ 2.0; another project who we all have to hope will work out and will have a fairly high round draft pick investment to keep him around.

However, as I criticize, I do have to give Kubiak/Smith credit for Martin and picking Jean as an UDFA. Both looks like gamers in PS at least.
I think Posey is dealing with making the jump into NFL-caliber ball. Brandon Brooks, IMO, is having that same sort of issue. To me, those two guys look (or by the reports I have heard thus far) as if they're still that college ball player who is sort of not progressing into NFL readiness as fast as Keshawn Martin has.

Two guys that I think embody the not-so-ready-for-the-NFL are: Kareem Jackson and Trindon Holliday. Both of them have taken a couple of years to grow into an NFL-readiness that we can see developing, finally, in the preseason thus far. Attitude, a sense of belonging, confidence, it's taken awhile for those two guys to really sync with what this team requires of them.

I mean, as much as people in the media want to gush about how NFL-ready Andrew Luck is at this point....those same people need to watch tape of K-Mart and how Schaub has been connecting with K-Mart as if they've played together for years already. It's spooky crazy how good K-Mart is playing. He just appears into the windows he needs to and BAM! quick strike catch and crazy YAC. Even the end-around play two games ago was really nice looking, much more productive and technically-sound than Jacoby's ever was.

For this, I grant Kubiak some grace...because he picked up Posey and Martin in the draft and he has immediately hit on K-Mart and jury is definitely out on Posey. I think Posey is a guy who comes back next year and everything just clicks. Some guys just develop into NFL-readiness slower than others, IMO.

But when you're the HC and you've got AJ at WR1, you probably don't tend to think it's a big deal if you don't nail the WR picks or even the FA acquisitions. I'd wager to say that AJ's prolonged absence last year has driven Kubiak to take it more seriously, though, from here onward. K-Mart is going to be HUGE.
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Old 08-21-2012   #152
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Calling Devier JJ 2.0 at this stage is WAY too early. He's already shown a much better work ethic than JJ, I think. It took JJ a few years to become a hard worker from what I remember. And at this point, JJ was frankly tearing it up on special teams.

Drafting WRs is a hit-or-miss proposition at best and they did take a risk with Posey. He could bomb out.

BUT... if they hit with Martin, then Posey is irrelevant. If Jean develops, then Posey is just gravy.

If Posey does develop (and at this stage, he might still end up being the best of the bunch) and those other guys turn out to be good, too, then we're going to have one of the best receiving corps in the league.

But there are a lot of ifs there and we've only played 2 preseason games. We've got a long way to go before we know about Posey.
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Old 08-21-2012   #153
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Way too early for all of that...u don't draft a guy in the 3rd round and "expect" him to come in and take #2/#3 reps off the bat in preseason...

Looks like they did very well on Martin, though...love it... Hope that holds up...
I didn't get a good feeling on draft day nabbing a guy who had a lower draft grade and missed 10 games last year due to suspension whether I agreed with it or not.

I guess I just don't think that this team, which wasn't able to really address a lot of spots via FA and had to lean heavily on this draft for improvement to take a project like this in the third. Not to mention coming into this season there was going to be at least 3 spots at WR up for grab as they turn around the position.

Thankfully, it's looking like Jean and Martin are picking up the slack.
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Old 08-21-2012   #154
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Calling Devier JJ 2.0 at this stage is WAY too early. He's already shown a much better work ethic than JJ, I think. It took JJ a few years to become a hard worker from what I remember. And at this point, JJ was frankly tearing it up on special teams.

Drafting WRs is a hit-or-miss proposition at best and they did take a risk with Posey. He could bomb out.

BUT... if they hit with Martin, then Posey is irrelevant. If Jean develops, then Posey is just gravy.

If Posey does develop (and at this stage, he might still end up being the best of the bunch) and those other guys turn out to be good, too, then we're going to have one of the best receiving corps in the league.

But there are a lot of ifs there and we've only played 2 preseason games. We've got a long way to go before we know about Posey.
I think your post dove-tails nicely with mine.

K-Mart has consumed all of the oxygen in the room so far. How the hell does a guy like Posey, who missed most of the NCAA season last year (probably dealing with the residue off of that, IMO), look at what K-Mart has been doing--how quickly K-Mart has exploded out of the starting block--and try to compete with that?!? LOL, he can't. K-Mart is dominating. K-Mart, and I know this is still very early, but still...the dude is phenomenal from what I have seen and he hasn't even been playing full snaps and ****. It's really, really promising for K-Mart.

I think Posey needs a year. He needs to sit and soak up the Texans system. But I bet once he clicks, the day when he jumps up and decides it's time for him to pour it on...he's going to do well. I think K-Mart and Jean and Posey will slowly become this team's WR crew. And maybe a new guy here and there, also.
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Old 08-21-2012   #155
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

I was really hard on the Posey pick back when the draft happened.

The guy is going to need a year, I'm really sure of it. He seems like he's that Kareem Jackson or Trindon Holliday type of player who has the skills, has the heart, etc., but for many reasons just gonna' develop a bit slower than others. I have been a KJ hater, too, and his play in the preseason right now (which I think started in the playoff game vs. baltimore last season!) shows me that some guys just need t-i-m-e. I didn't think KJ had it in him. I thought he was a busted pick.

But because of KJ's slower development, it gives me hope for Posey.

How many rookies really, truly, shift into overdrive right from the start? You can have 5th round rookies who look like 1st rounders and 1st rounders who look like 5th rounders when camp and preseason begins...this is why I love football so much--The inability to always know what ya' got until what ya' got gets into camp and hits the field in preseason. And we'd heard K-Mart was doing well in practices, but man oh man sometimes you think a guy might just be a workout warrior. From the games I have seen, K-Mart is a machine.
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Old 08-21-2012   #156
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

Jacoby used to be a pre-season warrior too.

Like Vinny said, Walter will slowly be phased out as long as the newbs continue to prove their worth throughout the season.

That said, I'm really diggin this K-Mart kid. He seems to have great hands and apparently has a similar personality to that of AJ. AJ's mini-me
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Old 08-21-2012   #157
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Jacoby used to be a pre-season warrior too.

Like Vinny said, Walter will slowly be phased out as long as the newbs continue to prove their worth throughout the season.

That said, I'm really diggin this K-Mart kid. He seems to have great hands and apparently has a similar personality to that of AJ. AJ's mini-me
See, I don't think he's a mini-AJ. OK, maybe in substance, but not in style.

I struggle to know how to describe K-Mart. I want to say Derrick Mason in his prime...but yet it's not a fully reasonable comparison, right?

K-Mart appears to be a lot like Steve Smith (Panthers) to me...the guy who catches or weaves through traffic and once he touches the ball his athleticism is too much for defenses to handle. Jacoby was supposed to be that, but ya' know...well, anyways...

AJ, to me, is that large-framed guy who has deceptive stride...he's past the defenders and leaping for grabs that only he can make (climbing the ladder or going into traffic) and K-Mart is a knifing, slashing kind of guy. He's not really a true slot receiver and yet he's not really a wide out either. He's sort of like a mixture of both. A hybrid slot/wide out who, if anything, represents the flexibility of a guy like Owen Daniels...you can't begin to find him AND cover all the routes that he can perform.
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Old 08-21-2012   #158
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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See, I don't think he's a mini-AJ. OK, maybe in substance, but not in style.

I struggle to know how to describe K-Mart. I want to say Derrick Mason in his prime...but yet it's not a fully reasonable comparison, right?

K-Mart appears to be a lot like Steve Smith (Panthers) to me...the guy who catches or weaves through traffic and once he touches the ball his athleticism is too much for defenses to handle. Jacoby was supposed to be that, but ya' know...well, anyways...

AJ, to me, is that large-framed guy who has deceptive stride...he's past the defenders and leaping for grabs that only he can make (climbing the ladder or going into traffic) and K-Mart is a knifing, slashing kind of guy. He's not really a true slot receiver and yet he's not really a wide out either. He's sort of like a mixture of both. A hybrid slot/wide out who, if anything, represents the flexibility of a guy like Owen Daniels...you can't begin to find him AND cover all the routes that he can perform.
I most look forward to watching him take a 10 yard route to the house. YAC is not AJs strong suit.
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Old 08-21-2012   #159
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
CB, please re-read my posts carefully.

What I really like for you to do is to go to profootball reference and check out those 3 years from 1998 to 2000.

See how many attempts the Broncos QBs had in those years.
Check to see how many passes their #3 and #4 caught, how many their major threats out of the backfield caught.

Then you will see that the make-up of the Broncos teams in those years were very different from that of the Texans of late.

Their #3' best season in those years were like 4 catches;
their RB' best season was like 23 catches.

With more pass attempts (than the Texans had last year) and very little contriubution from those other positions, you can be sure that more passes were thrown McCaffrey's way.

And like I said, you can only look at what Walter does up to 2011 (when he was 30) and compare it to McCaffrey up to the same age (1998).

You realize that Schaub is usually at the top of the league in pass attempts per/gm....

KW is not anywhere near the receiver that McCaffrey was. It's not even close.
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Old 08-21-2012   #160
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
K-Mart appears to be a lot like Steve Smith (Panthers) to me...the guy who catches or weaves through traffic and once he touches the ball his athleticism is too much for defenses to handle.
Steve Smith is the guy I thought about, but he's going to have to show a mean streak to get compared to Steve Smith. FWIW though, Smith didn't get on the field outside of STs much his first couple years.
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