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Old 08-20-2012   #81
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
Blowing zone coverage is not exactly triple covering someone. It called bad defense and a blown assignment. We could've had any receiver out there and chances are they still would've blown the coverage. To try to use that play as a example that teams game plan for Walter or that he scares defenses is rediculous and disingenuous.

Speaking of that play.. it was the same play that Walter scored on against the Bengals.. and the coverage was blown on that play as well. Which speaks to the play itself and how well it's designed.
It doesn't matter.

The fact remains that the defense call was designed to at least double-team the receicer that runs the post route.

And as I had stated in the game day thread, Walter was also double-teamed on the play where OD was called for false start when Schaub was about to go long to AJ on the right side line.

I don't have time to really key in on Walter on every play yet.
But more or less it's about the same as usual, just another blue-collar day for KDub.
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Old 08-20-2012   #82
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Yeah, I'm not really guessing one way or the other on it, but it is highly unusual for a player to take an outright paycut. I can't think of anyone in the NFL who has done that in the last few years.

I think Walter has his place on this team and that he belongs, but I'm not kidding myself into thinking we can't upgrade him with some younger talent. I'm already liking Kmart more than I ever liked Walter, but we shall see how they pan out this season. There's plenty of room for all 5 WRs to be on this team.
Obviously, sooner or later, KW will retire.

How short or long the phasing-out period is will depend on how quickly the young guys progress.

It's inevitable!
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Old 08-20-2012   #83
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Keshawn Martin is something entirely new to us.

He's not a big tall AJ'ish receiver.

He's not a lanky possession receiver.

He's not tiny.

We're staring right at the next big thing, IMO, and it's in a shape/form that hasn't existed here yet.

The guy is electric. He's got glue hands. He's looking like a seasoned veteran. When that guy catches the ball, he's already going or cutting or setting up a move on some defender.

He's got the killer instincts of AJ, the burst of Holliday, the hands of Owen Daniels, and the route running of Kevin Walter. We're staring at #82 becoming the heir to AJ.

Jean is good. Keshawn is a whole 'nuther level of good.

He's the type of guy who goes all Reggie Wayne on a defense and just takes over games on his own.

Kubiak and Schaub are going to use Martin like their own personal Terminator. Minus the nude opening scene.
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Old 08-20-2012   #84
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Kubiak and Schaub are going to use Martin like their own personal Terminator. Minus the nude opening scene.
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Old 08-20-2012   #85
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
AJ, Walter, and JJ all played every different positions.

Most receivers in the NFL do, after a period of time.

They have to line up as the X, Z, in the slot, or in the common bunch (diamond) formation.

Different system/different coaches use their players differently.
Yep and as soon as these young bucks learn their roles, Walter will get a new role as well. If he was even half as good as you're trying to make him out to be the guy would've been a LOT more productive when Andre went down last season.
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Old 08-20-2012   #86
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
It doesn't matter.

The fact remains that the defense call was designed to at least double-team the receicer that runs the post route.

And as I had stated in the game day thread, Walter was also double-teamed on the play where OD was called for false start when Schaub was about to go long to AJ on the right side line.

I don't have time to really key in on Walter on every play yet.
But more or less it's about the same as usual, just another blue-collar day for KDub.
The play is designed to exploit zone coverage.. the receiver who plays that position sucks up the coverage leaving a hole for the other receiver who's running underneath.. I know this because the same damn thing happened against the Bengals.. the only difference was Walter was the one who ran LeStar Jean's route and he was the one who came open. That illustrates the quality of the play and not necessarily the receivers running it.
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Old 08-20-2012   #87
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
Yep and as soon as these young bucks learn their roles, Walter will get a new role as well. If he was even have as good as you're trying to make him out to be the guy would've been a LOT more productive when Andre went down last season.
I've already started to take note on a game we played without AJ last year.

I will make a thread before the PS ends (I hope), and the title will be "a day in the life of Kevin Walter".

You will see how he was used in the game vs the Tacks in week 7 last year.

I'm halfway through the second quarter.
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Old 08-20-2012   #88
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
The play is designed to exploit zone coverage.. the receiver who plays that position sucks up the coverage leaving a hole for the other receiver who's running underneath.. I know this because the same damn thing happened against the Bengals.. the only difference was Walter was the one who ran LeStar Jean's route and he was the one who came open. That illustrates the quality of the play and not necessarily the receivers running it.
I'm not saying anything about the quality of the receiver here.

All I'm saying is that Walter was covered by 3 guys.
And when that happens, the QB would never throw the ball to you.

I'm not saying that it happens all the time either.

But there are several factors combined to explain why his production was reduced.

It was not because he can no longer get open.
It was not because he dropped too many balls.

There's no diminishing in his level of play is the point I'm making.
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Old 08-20-2012   #89
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I've already started to take note on a game we played without AJ last year.

I will make a thread before the PS ends (I hope), and the title will be "a day in the life of Kevin Walter".

You will see how he was used in the game vs the Tacks in week 7 last year.

I'm halfway through the second quarter.
So we have a entire thread of excuse making to look forward to..

Look you can psychoanalye all the game tape you want, but it's not going to change my opinion. I only care about one thing.. production. 39 catches for 474 yards when your all world receiver is standing on the sideline in street clothes during 9 games is not good enough. And stop acting like the reason why he doesn't produce more is because how we use him.. the guy had back to back 800 yard seasons in '07 and '08. (899 yds) His production has nose dived since... hence why he was asked to take a pay cut.
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Old 08-20-2012   #90
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
So we have a entire thread of excuse making to look forward to..

Look you can psychoanalye all the game tape you want, but it's not going to change my opinion. I only care about one thing.. production. 39 catches for 474 yards when your all world receiver is standing on the sideline in street clothes during 9 games is not good enough. And stop acting like the reason why he doesn't produce more is because how we use him.. the guy had back to back 800 yard seasons in '07 and '08. His production has nose dived since... hence why he was asked to take a pay cut.
Never mind then.

All I know is that my excuses eventually turned into undeniable reality:
Duane Brown, Barwin, Mario, Myers, Hill (the one who got cut), Reeves, Wilson, Pollard, Jamison, and on and on.

My record of excuses is really really good.
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Old 08-20-2012   #91
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..



Here's the play slowed down so it's easy to follow the coverage. Looks like the DBs are in zone and just follow the first Texan to get to their area. Big fail on the safety's part. Props to the o-line and their protection, they looked much better this game.
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Old 08-20-2012   #92
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by Norg View Post
i see it like this

#1 AJ

#2 Posey/KW

#3 SLot Martin

#4 Jean

#6 Kick returner Holiday


has u can see we have to many good WR's kinda a good problem but

has i see it right now and even tho it sucks If it was me i would have to Cut KW and Holiday

Posey as #2. What have u seen so far from him to come up with that ?
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Old 08-20-2012   #93
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post


Here's the play slowed down so it's easy to follow the coverage. Looks like the DBs are in zone and just follow the first Texan to get to their area. Big fail on the safety's part. Props to the o-line and their protection, they looked much better this game.
Excellent!

I hope one day we have the capability to play this in freeze frames so that our eyes can see what the QB was doing at the same instance as each receiver and each defender.

Then we can see that the extra safety (#36 Thomas) extended both arms to bump and redirect KMart (before taking on OD in the left flat), giving the CB #26 Brock time to check on both Martin's route while watching the QB's eyes at the same time.

These two guys were the ones attempting to tackle Jean.

With freeze frame, you can clearly see that #26 was always in front of KMart.
He was in position to jump the route.

There was no way Schaub can throw the ball to KMart with Jean that wide-open.

What do you think, Dutch?
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Old 08-20-2012   #94
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

He could have tried to squeeze it into Martin, but it probably wouldn't have been a completion. I doubt it would have been an INT, but it would have been a contested catch for sure. That safety was on him and watching Schaub the whole play, just waiting to pounce on the ball. On 3rd and 7 with only 4 rushers, it's tough to find an open man, but Schaub made the right call by waiting for someone to get open. A clean pocket made this happen.
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Old 08-20-2012   #95
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
He could have tried to squeeze it into Martin, but it probably wouldn't have been a completion. I doubt it would have been an INT, but it would have been a contested catch for sure. That safety was on him and watching Schaub the whole play, just waiting to pounce on the ball. On 3rd and 7 with only 4 rushers, it's tough to find an open man, but Schaub made the right call by waiting for someone to get open. A clean pocket made this happen.
Exactly what I saw after combining several different view.

Just a technical correction.
The "safety" you mentioned was the CB Brock #26.
The extra (third) safety was the one who bumped KMart before going out to the flat to cover OD.
The other two safeties, together with the SAM, formed a triangle around Walter in the middle.
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Old 08-20-2012   #96
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

The more I look at this, the more I think it's just excellent play design. Playing that kind of zone against that particular play is destined to fail, I think.
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Old 08-20-2012   #97
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Walter was tripple-covered on the TD to Jean.
The LB 54 and the both safeties formed a triangle around him.
Look again , he also has a LBer #54 playing underneath him #26 is headed in his direction originally but turns tail to Matrin and recovers .... 4 dudes covering Walter.


It was that LBers lack of zone integrity that uncovered Jean.
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Old 08-20-2012   #98
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Exactly what I saw after combining several different view.

Just a technical correction.
The "safety" you mentioned was the CB Brock #26.
The extra (third) safety was the one who bumped KMart before going out to the flat to cover OD.
The other two safeties, together with the SAM, formed a triangle around Walter in the middle.
I'll defer to your knowledge of the 49ers second team defense

I have to clean up my previous question about Walter's contract restructuring. The restructure was to reduce his 2012 salary from 3.5 million to 2 million. It appears that his 2012-2014 salaries are not guaranteed, so he is likely going to be cut or restructured next year given his 3.5 million pricetag. Given how cash-strapped the Texans are, I doubt we pay him that much next year.
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Old 08-20-2012   #99
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Default Re: Kevin Walter can go sit on the bench..

After reading the thread a few times I have come to believe it's just an overreaction from preseason games. If anything, the OP and just about anybody who's followed the Texans while Kubiak is in charge knows deep down in their hearts that any change like what is being discussed is going to happen gradually over a season and not after 2 or 4 preseason games.
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Old 08-20-2012   #100
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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
The play is designed to exploit zone coverage.. the receiver who plays that position sucks up the coverage leaving a hole for the other receiver who's running underneath.. I know this because the same damn thing happened against the Bengals.. the only difference was Walter was the one who ran LeStar Jean's route and he was the one who came open. That illustrates the quality of the play and not necessarily the receivers running it.
Yep, it's zone coverage.

Show me the man to man coverage where they dedicate multiple defenders strictly to stopping Walter.

This argument is ridiculous. No one goes into game day designing triple coverages for Kevin Walter. That kind of stuff is reserved for Aj.

Show me all these plays in man to man coverage where kw is being bracketed by multiple defenders.

You telling me out of all the receivers we'll have kw is going to be the one drawing the double and triple teams? With Andre, OD, aria , Casey and Lestar/Martin on the field WALTER is going to be the one teams pay extra attention to in coverage?

Well we should be un-f'n droppable then because all the rest of those guys should eat single or no coverage alive then.
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