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Old 08-03-2012   #81
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
not true. lots of "swing" players on this team backing up multiple positions.
Not sure how your statement negates my point? I did not say one playing cannot back up more than one position. IMO, we do not have a backup for WR1 of any significance.
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Old 08-03-2012   #82
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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
quick...

who was the WR2 for Kubiak in his Bronco SB run?

For you youngsters...Rod Smith was the go-to guy (wr1). Shannon Sharpe was his Owen Daniels middle of the field target and Kevin Walter, er...I mean Easy Ed McCaffrey was his WR2.

Same kind of offense, same kind of WR2...big lanky guy who could block and run persistent routes.


Ed McCaffrey

He was a better receiver than kw.

The first superbowl year he only had about 600 yards, but he had 8 td's. Also Shannon sharpe had over 1,000 yards receiving. Od has never had that many yards although he "was on pace" for that one year until he got hurt.

The next year and the years after Ed had over 1000 yards receiving and scored 10, 7 and 9 touchdowns. He even had one year in there where he had 1300 yards receiving. Even in his down years yardage wise, he still put up good td numbers.

He was a fully capable receiving threat. If rod goes down there is no bringing someone of the bench to be your pass catching wr. Mccafrey was that guy.

Mccafrey was a better wr than kw and it's not really close at this point.

If Walter had mccafreys ability I don't think were having this conversation right now.
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Old 08-03-2012   #83
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If this is true, why does every position have a backup except for AJ?
More important, if blocking wr is such a vital role why is kw the only one we've ever had? Where is kw's back up?

And Walter didn't become a blocking wr until he's numbers fell of some.

I think the guy can have a big year this year, but he's going to have to start getting open more.
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Old 08-03-2012   #84
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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If this is true, why does every position have a backup except for AJ?
In 2007, Andre Davis had 33 catches for 583 yards, a 17.7 YPC clip. AJ missed 7 games. KW started 15 games. When AJ went down, they didn't move KW to AD's spot. They put Davis, who rarely saw the field most of the rest of his Texans career, into that spot. JJ has been AJ's backup for the past few seasons. This year, they'll come up with someone else.
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Old 08-03-2012   #85
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Yep. People can dismiss the fact that KW has a different role all they want, but KW is on this team as a starter doing what he does on purpose. Kubiak pretty well went out and got KW to do exactly what he's been doing.
No he didn't.

Kevin walter became the starter after Eric moulds flamed out.

His first two years as a starter he had around 800 yards receiving. That's a good healthy number that he should strive for on a consistent basis.

I seriously doubt kubiak decided to scale that back and make him more of a blocker than a pass catcher.

More than likely he hasn't been able to achieve that level of success that he initially had and that's why he was asked to take a pay cut. That's also why his blocking skills are overly emphasized.... because well, we have to have some kind of justification as to why he is still getting so many snaps.
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Old 08-03-2012   #86
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
More important, if blocking wr is such a vital role why is kw the only one we've ever had? Where is kw's back up?

And Walter didn't become a blocking wr until he's numbers fell of some.

I think the guy can have a big year this year, but he's going to have to start getting open more.
For years, KW's backup was David Anderson. Last year, I think it might have been Bryant Johnson.

KWs job from the beginning was being able to block.

BUT... Blocking isn't just KW's job. It's AJ's job. It was JJ's job. It was DA's job. And it's going to be the job of any WR that makes this team. That is a requirement for a WR in a Kubiak offense.
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Old 08-03-2012   #87
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
If you want to call it hating than fine, I'm hating, but that sounds lazy. That word itself really needs to be abolished, because people misuse it to frequently. Someone criticizes a player they like, and they just come back saying "you're hating". I find that to be lazy.
I'm not a big fan of the word "coddling". It's an underhanded insult to the player and coaching staff to make such a statement. Saying that your hating on the guy is a direct result of your statement: "Enough with the BS and the coddling of Walter."

Where is PROOF that this coaching staff is coddling Walter? Coddling is defined as "Treat in an indulgent or overprotective way". I'm not seeing it, so such baseless insinuations just sounds like hate to me. I'm not lazy in making that statement. You are being lazy by not proving or supporting your coddling statement.
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Old 08-03-2012   #88
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
For years, KW's backup was David Anderson. Last year, I think it might have been Bryant Johnson.

KWs job from the beginning was being able to block.

BUT... Blocking isn't just KW's job. It's AJ's job. It was JJ's job. It was DA's job. And it's going to be the job of any WR that makes this team. That is a requirement for a WR in a Kubiak offense.
The problem I have with the Kevin Walter is good at the little things and a very good blocker is not that's unimportant, but some posters act like that should supercede his primary job, getting open and catching the ball. He is still a WR, an being average at best(at doing classic WR stuff) in the overall scheme of things is not good enough.
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Old 08-03-2012   #89
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post

Where is PROOF that this coaching staff is coddling Walter? Coddling is defined as "Treat in an indulgent or overprotective way". I'm not seeing it, so such baseless insinuations just sounds like hate to me. I'm not lazy in making that statement. You are being lazy by not proving or supporting your coddling statement.
I don't think he's accusing the coaches of coddling Walter, I think he's talking about the fans. KW has not been a good #2 for us, his performance has been on par with JJones who was insulted & ridiculed for producing the same results..... I know he also took a lot because of his bumbling punt receptions as well, but he's gotten plenty of slack for not stepping it up & replacing Andre Johnson on the field.

Now what eriadoc said is true, as far as the position goes. Andre is the X & KDub is the Z (or something like that) & that doesn't change when Andre is out. Jacoby becomes the X & KDub remains the Z

Still, when Andre is not in the game, we should be looking at Walter to have hundred yard games & a couple of TDs, not Jacoby.
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Old 08-03-2012   #90
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

Ed McCaffrey was a beast. I watched him play closely and the guy was the total package. Rod Smith often joked that if he were black he'd be one of the highest-paid wideouts in the league. As much as I like Kevin Walter, he isn't anywhere close to Ed McCaffrey's level. That being said I admire Walter for what he brings to the table.
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Old 08-03-2012   #91
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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I don't think anyone NEEDS to come out and say it. When your boss asks you to take a pay cut...what's the underlying implication?
.

That I'm a valued employee but finances are down and drastic cost-cutting measures are in order.

If he/she thought I sucked or could be readily replaced, I'd simply be told to hit the road.
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Old 08-03-2012   #92
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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Originally Posted by Bulls on Parade View Post
Ed McCaffrey was a beast. I watched him play closely and the guy was the total package. Rod Smith often joked that if he were black he'd be one of the highest-paid wideouts in the league. As much as I like Kevin Walter, he isn't anywhere close to Ed McCaffrey's level. That being said I admire Walter for what he brings to the table.
Right, KDub is more like Ricky Proehl, or Keith Poole. Tough as nails, no non-sense, clutch. But not a 1 or a 2.
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Old 08-03-2012   #93
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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Originally Posted by BCRich View Post
I don't think he's accusing the coaches of coddling Walter, I think he's talking about the fans. KW has not been a good #2 for us, his performance has been on par with JJones who was insulted & ridiculed for producing the same results..... I know he also took a lot because of his bumbling punt receptions as well, but he's gotten plenty of slack for not stepping it up & replacing Andre Johnson on the field.

Now what eriadoc said is true, as far as the position goes. Andre is the X & KDub is the Z (or something like that) & that doesn't change when Andre is out. Jacoby becomes the X & KDub remains the Z

Still, when Andre is not in the game, we should be looking at Walter to have hundred yard games & a couple of TDs, not Jacoby.
I don't see fans coddling him, either. Maybe I'm conditioned by the treatment that David Carr received for so many years when fans were truly overprotective of him in spite of blatant evidence proving otherwise.

I think most fans would like to see an improvement at the no. 2 spot, but we also realize this team has had many needs and the staff has chosen not to address it, yet.

Besides, Walter was NEVER A.J.'s replacement. I do not understand the confusion about numbers when our offensive system is what it is and has not changed. Just because he's no. 2 on the depth chart does not automatically mean it's like a shark's mouth, where a tooth goes missing and there's a no. 2 that takes it's place. Walter is fulfilling a specific role in Kubiak's offense, like Vinny pointed out, and he has never been considered to be 1b except for those that do not like him and always bring it up.

This is why I stopped talking about Walter a long time ago and just let him do his thing. There is a lack of objectivity about some players by some fans, and Walter is one of those kinds of players.
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Old 08-03-2012   #94
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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Mccafrey was a better wr than kw and it's not really close at this point.

If Walter had mccafreys ability I don't think were having this conversation right now.
And that is just it. KW isn't as good as Mccaffrey was. Walter has gradually gotten worse on this team over the years as well. When the only real attributes that fans can bring up for your #2 WR are blocking and a great attitude, than you know there is a problem with that scenario.
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Old 08-03-2012   #95
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
And that is just it. KW isn't as good as Mccaffrey was. Walter has gradually gotten worse on this team over the years as well. When the only real attributes that fans can bring up for your #2 WR are blocking and a great attitude, than you know there is a problem with that scenario.
Or maybe this team/offense (being run-first and all ) values those attributes more than being a "diva" who makes the occasional highlight reel catch.

Hey, if he sucks as much as you allude, then one of these younger, faster "kids" should be able to take his spot don't you think? There's certainly enough of them.
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Old 08-04-2012   #96
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
That I'm a valued employee but finances are down and drastic cost-cutting measures are in order.

If he/she thought I sucked or could be readily replaced, I'd simply be told to hit the road.
What if its not a matter of you totally sucking... just not producing when you should. When it comes down to it, you just don't close things out.

Financially, the paycut was a good move for both sides, I think its unlikely he gets #2 money for #3 production.
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Old 08-04-2012   #97
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
Or maybe this team/offense (being run-first and all ) values those attributes more than being a "diva" who makes the occasional highlight reel catch.
Not really fair comparison if you're going to act like the only other option would be some diva who can only make highlight reels. Your entire attitude comes off like it's Walter or doom and gloom. I'm sure there are receivers out there that can beat out 474 yards and 3 TD's.

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Hey, if he sucks as much as you allude, then one of these younger, faster "kids" should be able to take his spot don't you think? There's certainly enough of them.
I don't recall saying that Walter sucked. Whether these young guys can be better than Walter or not isn't what this is about really. He is a great guy and a hard worker, but he is our second option at WR, and at this point, he is easily replaceable for an upgrade. The Texans should have their ears wide open for any WR's that hit the trading block throughout the season.
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Old 08-07-2012   #98
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

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Mostly agree with this post.

When do you think would be a good time to replace Walter as WR2?
Been rewatching some games (4 so far) concentrating on Walter.
I'll let you know my take after a few more games.

Initial "re-observations":

- A receiver can be open but if the QB doesn't look his way, it never has the chance to show up on the stat sheet. And Walter was open a fair amount of time considering the number of times he actually runs a route.

- It's not gonna be easy to find a receiver in the NFL today that is used to block for both the running game and the passing game as much.

- Walter is a mid 4.4 guy; he's not a burner, but he has decent speed (on top of his ability to run routes) to keep the defense honest (you leave him in single coverage often enough and he will have better than his percentage.) He did run a good number of deep routes to free AJ (or somebody else) underneath.

...

Now, I'm going to ramble a little bit here, kind of thinking aloud as I go through some numbers.

The number of catches Walter had last year (39) comprises some 8.35% of the number of pass attempts by the Texans QBs (467).
I think he had 2 or 3 "so-called" drops this year (at least one I don't think is a drop, but nervermind that.)
3 drops plus 39 catches; that's 42 passes "catchable passes" thrown his way.
So he was targeted about 9% of the time.

In 2010, he caught 51; we attempted 574.
In 2009, he caught 53; we attempted 592.

Basically, we know that Walter is one of the most sure-handed receiver in the league (since he became a Texan).
Over the past 3 seasons, Walter ranked #3 in this category (3.38%).

Roughly, the number of catchable passes thrown his way remains about 9% of the number of pass attempts; ie. the Texans QBs are targeting him roughly the same number of times in the last 3 years.

And AJ played all 16 games on 09.

It looks like Walter's role never changed whether AJ was healthy or not, which is what I always suspect.

...

BTW, I'm learning to get use to this new Season Plus Rewind package ($70) from NFL.com

They give us two views:

1. We can see all 22 players on the field for the most part (the important parts)

2. One end zone view that is constant through the game (ie. this camera is in one particular end zone; you don't see the camera that was place in the other end zone).
(The regular broadcast do offer us with these views on a few "selected" plays in a certain game.)

That's it; you don't have the overhead camera or anything else.

And there's no audio.

You have to combine this with the regular broadcast (and perhaps best, with the gamebook in hand on a different computer.)
I watch games with 2 computers (and or with a TV) often so it's not too hard for me to adjust.
They also have a condensed version of the game (nothing but the actual plays).
I have also watched games in this fashion, so it's also easy for me to toggle between versions.

I can also complement this with a replay version (which I occasionally get) in which there's actual commentary from the HCs (on a few particular plays).

....

You need to have a pretty good internet connection and computer set-up to really enjoy this.

I hook up one computer with my 55" TV via an HDMI cable (the quality is still not as good as what you normally see with Hi-Def - at least for me.)

I have my laptop in which I store the regular broadcast in Hi-Def and the game book (once in a blue moon, I can have 3 computers working at the same time, but I don't need to - not anymore.)

Personally, I think they're making it hard for a normal fan to learn the game.
Maybe they don't want it to be too transparent.
Maybe they have a reason.

But it's all good.
They offer me a couple of better views (consistently) to confirm the things I need to be confirmed.

I wouldn't reccommend it for the casual fans, but for those who love to study the game hard, any extra view is a definite plus... and I am in heaven, LOL!
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Old 08-07-2012   #99
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Default Re: USA Today: Kevin Walter is not a second-rate No. 2 receiver

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Mostly agree with this post.

When do you think would be a good time to replace Walter as WR2?
When they aquire someone who can take his job ....



Part of the issue here isnt Walter but what he is asked to do in this scheme that often doesnt show up on the stat sheet .... all the clearing routes he runs that get other guy's open. Gary's route combinations are downright brilliant and Walter plays a significant role in the execution on the field that lead to Schaub throwing for 4500+ in back to back seasons and on pace to repeat that success last season until the injury.

Much of this is difficult to see unless you have access to the view of the game teams have in video. We as fans see bits and pieces of plays , they have the benifit of multiple views and top down video.
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