Penn State Child Molestation Case

[Wolf6151]

Penn St. raised 200 mil. from alumni last year alone, during the scandal. A 60 mil. penalty is nothing.


They should have gotten the death penalty.

[Double Barrel]

Originally Posted by Heath Shuler

They should have just turned the statue around, so Paterno was facing the other way. That would have been a pefect symbol of him.

[steelbtexan]

Originally Posted by 2012Champs

Im not sure the issues at Penn St and SMU can be compared at all. Even more so when you talk about NCAA rule violations and what not. While Im not against punishment in the Penn case the NCAA certainly changed the rules it opperates by in order to do anything in this case and lets not forget its better for the NCAA for Penn not to get wipped off the map for 20+ years

It's not about what's right for Penn St or the NCAA.

It's about a football legend letting little boys being raped and instead of doing the right thing and turning Sandusky into the police, he allows no telling how many more children to be molested.

Lack of institutional control.

If I were SMU I would start putting players back on the payroll starting next yr. If you aren't even going to lose TV time for letting little boys get raped.

The NCAA is a hypocritical joke. I'm not normally one to want congress to look into sports orgs. But in this case Cogress should not only look into the NCAA as a sanctoining body. It should also do away with the NCAA's rights to be judge and jury over its member institutions.

What do you think would've happened to an institution like UH in a situation like this? You can bet that it would've been far worse for UH.

The NCAA is a joke. But atleast one of the untouchables (Penn St) got a little bit of what should've been coming to them along time ago.

[Hagar]

Death penelty. Only acceptable punishment.

I was watching one of the sports channels at lunch. The channel focused on a group of students as the penelties were announced. Each student had a look of horror and shook his/her head in disbelief during the announcements. One young lady even cried. I find this attitude hard to accept. These folks need to get thier priorities straight.

[MojoMan]

Bobby Bowden takes the lead as the most winning NCAA football coach. Joe Paterno falls back to #12.

Paterno loses 111 wins, cedes title to Bowden

John Swofford gave his state of the ACC address on Sunday morning at the ACC Kickoff in Greensboro, NC. “Currently, the winningest active FBS coach—Frank Beamer—and basketball coach—Mike Krzyzewski—reside in the ACC.”

Monday morning, NCAA president Mark Emmert announced penalties against Penn State, and former coach Joe Paterno, that strengthen Swofford's statement.

The NCAA vacated all of Penn State's wins from 1998 to 2011. The program will lose 112 victories. Joe Paterno's record got hit hard, too. He will lose 111 victories as a coach, going from 409 career wins to 298, and dropping from first to 12th on the all-time wins list. Former Florida State coach Bobby Bowden is now the all-time leader in FBS coaching wins. Coupled with Duke's Krzyzewski, who passed Bob Knight on the basketball wins list last November, the winningest all-time football and basketball coaches spent much of their careers competing in the ACC.

Bowden coached the Seminoles from 1976 to 2009, following six seasons at the helm of West Virginia. He won 389 games at the FBS level, 377 of which are recognized by the NCAA. He leads the ACC in all-time victories, conference wins, winning percentage, and won twice as many ACC titles as any other coach.

....

[2012Champs]

Originally Posted by steelbtexan

It's not about what's right for Penn St or the NCAA.

It's about a football legend letting little boys being raped and instead of doing the right thing and turning Sandusky into the police, he allows no telling how many more children to be molested.

Lack of institutional control.

If I were SMU I would start putting players back on the payroll starting next yr. If you aren't even going to lose TV time for letting little boys get raped.

The NCAA is a hypocritical joke. I'm not normally one to want congress to look into sports orgs. But in this case Cogress should not only look into the NCAA as a sanctoining body. It should also do away with the NCAA's rights to be judge and jury over its member institutions.

What do you think would've happened to an institution like UH in a situation like this? You can bet that it would've been far worse for UH.

The NCAA is a joke. But atleast one of the untouchables (Penn St) got a little bit of what should've been coming to them along time ago.

Did you attend SMU or have some ties to the school? What happend at SMU was something that was a direct violation of the rules that the NCAA had. What happend at Penn St really has nothing to do with the football program or certainly not the football program as it stands today. Sandusky is in jail, Joe is dead and I think the other two officials should have charges being filed if they havent already. What happend at Penn St is criminal and is being delt with as such, however the NCAA changing its rules and power to level punishment in this case is purely because of public outcry. I have no dog in the fight and couldnt care less if Penn never held another football game but its clear this topic is beyond the emotional boundry to talk about the situation in a rational manner.


I totally missed your rant that the govt should get involved. The govt has no business in the matter you are speaking about.

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by 2012Champs

Did you attend SMU or have some ties to the school? What happend at SMU was something that was a direct violation of the rules that the NCAA had. What happend at Penn St really has nothing to do with the football program or certainly not the football program as it stands today. Sandusky is in jail, Joe is dead and I think the other two officials should have charges being filed if they havent already. What happend at Penn St is criminal and is being delt with as such, however the NCAA changing its rules and power to level punishment in this case is purely because of public outcry. I have no dog in the fight and couldnt care less if Penn never held another football game but its clear this topic is beyond the emotional boundry to talk about the situation in a rational manner.


I totally missed your rant that the govt should get involved. The govt has no business in the matter you are speaking about.

What? Programs get hit all the time for stupid stuff regarding this:

PRINCIPLES OF INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL
AS PREPARED BY THE NCAA COMMITTEE ON INFRACTIONS

A. "CONTROL" IS DEFINED IN COMMON-SENSE TERMS.

In determining whether there has been a lack of institutional control when a violation of NCAA
rules has been found it is necessary to ascertain what formal institutional policies and procedures
were in place at the time the violation of NCAA rules occurred and whether those policies and
procedures, if adequate, were being monitored and enforced. It is important that policies and
procedures be established so as to deter violations and not merely to discover their existence
after they have taken place. In a case where proper procedures exist and are appropriately
enforced, especially when they result in the prompt detection, investigation and reporting of the
violations in question, there may be no lack of institutional control although the individual or
individuals directly involved may be held responsible.

In a situation in which adequate institutional procedures exist, at least on paper, a practical,
common-sense approach is appropriate in determining whether they are adequately monitored
and enforced by a person in "control." Obviously, general institutional control is exercised by the
chief executive officer of a member institution. However, it is rare that the chief executive officer
will make decisions specifically affecting the operations of the institution's athletics program.
Instead, the day-to-day duties of operation, including compliance with NCAA rules, will have been
delegated to subordinates either by specific action or by the creation of appropriate job
descriptions. Moreover, it is usually left to senior subordinates, such as the director of athletics,
further to delegate various duties regarding compliance with NCAA rules.

...

http://compliance.pac-12.org/thetools/instctl.pdf

And yes, reporting known criminal matters to the police is a policy within all universities.

[2012Champs]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

What? Programs get hit all the time for stupid stuff regarding this:




http://compliance.pac-12.org/thetools/instctl.pdf

And yes, reporting known criminal matters to the police is a policy within all universities.

Lack of instl control is widely worded but the first link is an article I read that talked about the move Mark made that were certainly not what the NCAA does. The NCAA's actions here are not precedented. I will post two paragraphs those for those whom have a hard time with the SMU/Penn comparison



http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--...-spanier-.html


The decision came almost solely from Emmert, sources say. He used the significance of the scandal to allow the NCAA Board of Directors to provide him with powers not seen since the iron-fisted Walter Byers ran the organization from 1951-1988.

"Unprecedented," said one NCAA source. "This is just unprecedented."

[Related: Charles Robinson: Staggering penalties likely for Penn State]

Rather than allowing the tedious infractions process to churn on for years, there was no NCAA investigation, no hearings, no letter of inquiry, no reports, no chance for formal response, no nothing. Rather than wait for criminal cases and every last bit of evidence to trickle in, this was Emmert reading the school's own Freeh Commission report and deciding enough was enough







Current NCAA rules limit the penalty to colleges already on probation that commit another major violation. But NCAA leaders have indicated in recent months they are willing to use harsher penalties for the worst offenses. That includes postseason and TV bans, which haven't been used extensively since the 1980s.




""This is completely different than an impermissible benefits scandal like (what) happened at SMU, or anything else we've dealt with. This is as systemic a cultural problem as it is a football problem. There have been people that said this wasn't a football scandal," Emmert told PBS. "Well, it was more than a football scandal, much more than a football scandal. It was that but much more. And we'll have to figure out exactly what the right penalties are. I don't know that past precedent makes particularly good sense in this case, because it's really an unprecedented problem."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1692814.html

[Dutchrudder]

^ yeah, I don't know where you are going with all that. Anyways, the NCAA decree on the Ped State ruling can be found here: http://a.espncdn.com/pdf/2012/0723/p...onclusions.pdf

...

1. A failure to value and uphold institutional integrity demonstrated by inadequate,
and in some instances non-existent, controls and oversight surrounding the
athletics program of the University, such as those controls prescribed by Articles
2.1, 6.01.1, and 6.4 of the NCAA Constitution.

2. A failure to maintain minimal standards of appropriate and responsible conduct.
The NCAA seeks to foster an environment and culture of honesty, as exemplified
by NCAA Bylaws 10.01.1 and 11.1.1, and by Bylaw 10.1 on ethical conduct.
Indeed, NCAA Bylaw I 0.1 enumerates a non-exhaustive list of examples of
inappropriate conduct. In addition, Article 2.4 of the NCAA Constitution requires
athletic programs to adhere to fundamental values of respect, faimess, civility,
honesty and responsibility.

3. A lack of adherence to fundamental notions of individual integrity. An
institution's head coach should promote an atmosphere for compliance and
monitor the activities of all assistant coaches and other administrators involved
with the program who report directly or indirectly to the coach. Further, NCAA
Bylaw 19.01.2, consistent with Article 2.4 of the NCAA Constitution, demands
the employees associated with intercollegiate athletics to serve as positive moral
models for students in order "for intercollegiate athletics to promote the character
development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to
promote civility in society."

...

[2012Champs]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

^ yeah, I don't know where you are going with all that. Anyways, the NCAA decree on the Ped State ruling can be found here: http://a.espncdn.com/pdf/2012/0723/p...onclusions.pdf

Show me what the results of the NCAA investigation were not the decree

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by 2012Champs

Show me what the results of the NCAA investigation were not the decree

What are you talking about? They didn't do their own investigation, they used the Freeh investigation as their source of information for determining the punishment. Freeh was hired by Penn State to do the investigation and obviously wasn't doing the university any favors given his results, so I don't see an issue with it. That document I linked has signatures from the president of the NCAA and the president of PSU. They accepted that punishment as a semi-plea deal, because it could have been much worse.

[2012Champs]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

What are you talking about? They didn't do their own investigation, they used the Freeh investigation as their source of information for determining the punishment. Freeh was hired by Penn State to do the investigation and obviously wasn't doing the university any favors given his results, so I don't see an issue with it. That document I linked has signatures from the president of the NCAA and the president of PSU. They accepted that punishment as a semi-plea deal, because it could have been much worse.

What am I talking about? Thats exactly my point they didnt do any investigation. Tell me the last time the NCAA handed down punishment in any larger fashion without doing an investigation, without doing much work at all and having a single person decide what was going to happen? You cant because this isnt something that happend even with the SMU issues. PSU accepted the deal because any fight would be prolonged and continue the issue and thats what would have been worse not the punishment.

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by 2012Champs

What am I talking about? Thats exactly my point they didnt do any investigation. Tell me the last time the NCAA handed down punishment in any larger fashion without doing an investigation, without doing much work at all and having a single person decide what was going to happen? You cant because this isnt something that happend even with the SMU issues. PSU accepted the deal because any fight would be prolonged and continue the issue and thats what would have been worse not the punishment.

Is it really necessary to spend the money and resources to conduct the same investigation that is already being done by an independent firm, the FBI and other government organizations? I really don't think so in this case. It's pretty well known, and they did wait for the court to rule on the charges against Sandusky himself before instituting these penalties.

[2012Champs]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

Is it really necessary to spend the money and resources to conduct the same investigation that is already being done by an independent firm, the FBI and other government organizations? I really don't think so in this case. It's pretty well known, and they did wait for the court to rule on the charges against Sandusky himself before instituting these penalties.

Like I said the NCAA acted in a manner that it had not before. No investigation(which for them typically takes forever) and a single person deciding how the punishment should go. You said programs get hit for stupid stuff like this all the time but no they dont. There usually is a process for the NCAA and its punishment.

[Goldensilence]

Originally Posted by 2012Champs

Like I said the NCAA acted in a manner that it had not before. No investigation(which for them typically takes forever) and a single person deciding how the punishment should go. You said programs get hit for stupid stuff like this all the time but no they dont. There usually is a process for the NCAA and its punishment.

I think Dutch's and the NCCA's point is.....why commit more resources, man power, and time into another report when the Freeh is already independent of both Penn State and the NCAA? Do you think an NCAA investigation would've come up with anything substantially different?

In the case of Penn State...I think they got off better using the Freeh Report and the subsequent punishment handed out better than another full blown investigation by the NCAA. Which might have come up with even worse results now that the lid was blown off and people might be more willing to come forward with any additional knowledge. It might have also given even more time for an even larger growing public backlash. I think "plea bargain" with the Freeh Report is accurate.

I am curious as to what the Big 10 conference itself decides to do.

[2012Champs]

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

I think Dutch's and the NCCA's point is.....why commit more resources, man power, and time into another report when the Freeh is already independent of both Penn State and the NCAA? Do you think an NCAA investigation would've come up with anything substantially different?

I personally think it would be the same outcome however that doesnt change my opinion of the process or how it went.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

In the case of Penn State...I think they got off better using the Freeh Report and the subsequent punishment handed out better than another full blown investigation by the NCAA. Which might have come up with even worse results now that the lid was blown off and people might be more willing to come forward with any additional knowledge. It might have also given even more time for an even larger growing public backlash. I think "plea bargain" with the Freeh Report is accurate.

I am curious as to what the Big 10 conference itself decides to do.

Im not sure I am confident in NCAA's ability to do anything with consistency so Im dont know how their investigation would go or what the outcome would be from a prolonged timeframe. I do know that PSU is probably better off accepting anything that came their way asap to start the road to putting this somewhat behind them.

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by 2012Champs

Like I said the NCAA acted in a manner that it had not before. No investigation(which for them typically takes forever) and a single person deciding how the punishment should go.

Ok, so do you want to argue that the football program of Penn State had nothing to do with the coverup of Jerry Sandusky's child molestation over the past 14 years? If not, then move on to something else, because you're wasting everyone's time in this thread.

You said programs get hit for stupid stuff like this all the time but no they dont. There usually is a process for the NCAA and its punishment.

Lack of institutional control is a common sanction from the NCAA, Ohio State was the most recent one to be hit with it. Usually it's with regard to recruiting players or improper benefits being given to players. USC was hit with it for the Reggie Bush stuff. It really is quite common if you pay attention to NCAA football news. It's usually for stupid little things that add up, this instance with Penn State is much more severe and warrants the harsh punishment.

[2012Champs]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

Ok, so do you want to argue that the football program of Penn State had nothing to do with the coverup of Jerry Sandusky's child molestation over the past 14 years? If not, then move on to something else, because you're wasting everyone's time in this thread.



Lack of institutional control is a common sanction from the NCAA, Ohio State was the most recent one to be hit with it. Usually it's with regard to recruiting players or improper benefits being given to players. USC was hit with it for the Reggie Bush stuff. It really is quite common if you pay attention to NCAA football news. It's usually for stupid little things that add up, this instance with Penn State is much more severe and warrants the harsh punishment.

My stance certainly isnt that the football program didnt have anything to do with it. Two of the coaches had something to do with the cover up. What they were covering up wasnt football related. Also of note no one in the program now was responsible for this mess, all four involved are now gone.


Again getting hit with punishment isnt the point its how they came to that resolution. I pay attention to football news and thats how I can tell you the NCAA doesnt hand out punishment without investigating and deciding as an organization how it will proceed.

[Playoffs]

Originally Posted by Hagar

Death penelty. Only acceptable punishment.

I agree.

This wasn't about buying student/athletes cars or shaving points, this was an intentional conspiracy to protect the money inflow ... whose direct and expected result was the continued sexual assault of more little boys.

Football monies > child molestation. No program has done worse.

NCAA should have killed the program and spread temporary scholarships around to cover the student-athletes caught in the middle of this.

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by 2012Champs

My stance certainly isnt that the football program didnt have anything to do with it. Two of the coaches had something to do with the cover up. What they were covering up wasnt football related. Also of note no one in the program now was responsible for this mess, all four involved are now gone.

Umm, yeah it was football related. They were covering up a former coach's transgressions and enabled him to continue to rape children. Personally, I hope the sanctions go well beyond just the stupid football program. But to argue that it has nothing to do with the football program, protecting JoePa's legacy, allowing him to keep pushing for the most wins in NCAA history, and whatnot is just foolish. The football program was the heart of it. The football program made Sandusky a local celebrity and enabled him to create a charity that essentially became a child escort service for this guy. They were enablers, and they deserve to have it all burnt to the ground.

That university has built a cult-like following where their people actually think that the school and its students are the real victims in this case. I would be just fine with it losing accreditation and allowing everyone to transfer away from that cesspool of morals. Get them into some normal schools and maybe that will break the spell of insanity.

Again getting hit with punishment isnt the point its how they came to that resolution. I pay attention to football news and thats how I can tell you the NCAA doesnt hand out punishment without investigating and deciding as an organization how it will proceed.

Well yeah, because in every other case there hasn't been a criminal investigation from the FBI and other enforcement agencies. In those cases, there weren't independent investigations being commissioned by the school, because NONE of them were anywhere near as bad as this! How is it that hard to understand? Nothing in the history of the NCAA has been this bad. Period. So when they rule in a way that is unprecedented in response to acts that are also unprecedented, don't be so surprised.