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Old 07-07-2012   #41
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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
We rush 52.20% of the time. Which is pretty close to balanced.

BUT. Only 1 team rushed for a higher percentage of the time than we did: The Denver Broncos @ 53.69% of the time.

The Niners rushed 50.15% of the time.

The "average" was rushing 42.91% of the time.

The Detroit Lions rushed the least at 33.65% of the time.
In today's NFL we are considered a running team.

The end.

Overall, we are balanced. But comparatively speaking we like to run the ball a lot.

Not really sure why folks can't admit that.

Oh wait, yeah I do...
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Old 07-07-2012   #42
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

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Originally Posted by powda View Post
I think someone's going to have to define what makes a running team before much more progress can be made in this thread. Some terms are to loosely tossed about and have subjective meanings.
I agree. Does an offense have to run the wildcat or have a passing attack that would be considered putrid in 1972 to be considered "run oriented"?

The Texans offense revolves around the zone blocking scheme. Not only the running game, but much of the passing game. That's the foundation. And it has been that way with Kubiak's offenses for years. As Denver's O.C., the Broncos finished in the top 10 in rushing attempts in 9 of his 11 seasons. Top 2 in 5 seasons. But the passing game didn't suffer, as they were top 10 in yards/attempt in 7 seasons.

2011 was closest to what Kubiak wants to see with the Texans offense. He was able to achieve that balance because his defense was no longer a sieve. I see more of the same in 2012. Control the clock, keep your defense fresh, make big plays in play action with your healthy QB and #1 WR. It hasn't always worked out as hoped, but that's always been the plan.
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Old 07-07-2012   #43
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

We were a lose first team.

Now, we are a win first team.

That is all.
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Old 07-07-2012   #44
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
We rush 52.20% of the time. Which is pretty close to balanced.

BUT. Only 1 team rushed for a higher percentage of the time than we did: The Denver Broncos @ 53.69% of the time.

The Niners rushed 50.15% of the time.

The "average" was rushing 42.91% of the time.

The Detroit Lions rushed the least at 33.65% of the time.
As I understand, it looks like TPN used stats for 16 regular season games and counted the entire game.
This also held out in the play-offs.

There were 546 rushing attempts on record out of 1,056 total plays.
And he didn't account for situations like a sack (which is actually a pasing play, but was recorded as a rushing attempt.)
There are other circumstances which I can bring up later - like a busted play, where the QB scrambled and gain a yard or two; these were also passing plays but ended up being running plays.

By "my defintion", one needs to look at the first half stats (and/or the "so-called" 25 scripted plays the Texans ran to determine whether they were a RUN-FIRST team or not.

So far by my count, the distribution in the first eight games of the season resulted in 21 more pass plays in the first half of these games.

The second half of the season saw a plus five count in favor of the passing game despite a multitude of players at QB.

In the play-offs, we were even against the Bengals and passed 4 more times in the Ravens game.

All this despite the in-and-out of QBs throughout the season and your #1 receiver on the shelf for 9 games (while rounding into shape in the first couple of games back and playing a few games less than 100% due to the injury.)

Last edited by 76Texan; 07-07-2012 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 07-07-2012   #45
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
As I understand, it looks like TPN used stats for 16 regular season games and counted the entire game.
This also held out in the play-offs.

There were 546 rushing attempts on record out of 1,056 total plays.
And he didn't account for situations like a sack (which is actually a pasing play, but was recorded as a rushing attempt.)
There are other circumstances which I can bring up later - like a busted play, where the QB scrambled and gain a yard or two; these were also passing plays but ended up being running plays.

By "my defintion", one needs to look at the first half stats (and/or the "so-called" 25 scripted plays the Texans ran to determine whether they were a RUN-FIRST team or not.

So far by my count, the distribution in the first eight games of the season resulted in 21 more pass plays in the second half.

The second half of the season saw a plus five count in favor of the passing game despite a multitude of players at QB.

In the play-offs, we were even against the Bengals and passed 4 more times in the Ravens game.

All this despite the in-and-out of QBs throughout the season and your #1 receiver on the shelf for 9 games (while rounding into shape in the first couple of games back and playing a few games less than 100% due to the injury.)
This is all true EXCEPT that according to Pro Football Reference sacks were NOT included in the rushing attempts. In those numbers, there is the total number of plays, the total number of pass attempts (where the ball was actually thrown), and the total number of rush attempts (which excludes sacks.) If you add rush attempts to pass attempts, it does not add up to the number plays. So I based my percentages entirely off of rush attempts which numerically lumps the sacks in with the pass attempts.

Almost sacks that turn into rushes are counted as rushing attempts but numerically, I think that's small enough to be inconsequential except for a few QBs. (And that would tend to raise the rushing percentage, not decrease it.)

But the reason I put those numbers up there is because you're looking at the Texans out of context of the rest of the league. Looking at anything only in terms of how many of these plays the Texans ran vs. the number of these plays the Texans ran without comparing that to all the other teams in the league doesn't tell you anything significant. A team that runs 50% of the time is balanced in terms of their play selection but they are unbalanced in terms of the type of team they are.

So there are apples and there are oranges. Are we a rushing-oriented team? Yes. We run for a higher percentage of our plays than any team except for the Broncos last year and the Broncos were an anomaly.

And whether a team was a rushing oriented team had zilch to do with whether they were running to close out games. The teams with the highest percentage of rushes were, in order: The Broncos, Us, The Niners, the Jaguars, the Chiefs, the Dolphins, the Bears, the Raiders, the Bengals, and the Panthers (which is a team where the QB scrambling would significantly reduce their actual rush percentage.) There's not a lot of winners in that list.

Are we a team that strives for balance? Yes. We try to balance out our play-calling so teams don't know whether to defend the pass or the rush. We try to disguise our plays so they look as similar from situation to situation as we can. And we try to pass when people expect the run and run when people expect the pass.

These are, for the most part, two different and unrelated things.
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Old 07-07-2012   #46
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
This is all true EXCEPT that according to Pro Football Reference sacks were NOT included in the rushing attempts. In those numbers, there is the total number of plays, the total number of pass attempts (where the ball was actually thrown), and the total number of rush attempts (which excludes sacks.) If you add rush attempts to pass attempts, it does not add up to the number plays. So I based my percentages entirely off of rush attempts which numerically lumps the sacks in with the pass attempts.

Almost sacks that turn into rushes are counted as rushing attempts but numerically, I think that's small enough to be inconsequential except for a few QBs.
OK, so my bad.
We can clarify that sacks are not rushing attempts.

What I wanted to point out was that many of these were really a product of a pass play.

Another thing is when the QB ran with the ball, some were by designs but with the Texans, mostly they were results of a passing play gone awry.
These were recorded as runs while in actually, they were desgined to be pass plays.
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Old 07-07-2012   #47
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
But the reason I put those numbers up there is because you're looking at the Texans out of context of the rest of the league. Looking at anything only in terms of how many of these plays the Texans ran vs. the number of these plays the Texans ran without comparing that to all the other teams in the league doesn't tell you anything significant. A team that runs 50% of the time is balanced in terms of their play selection but they are unbalanced in terms of the type of team they are.

So there are apples and there are oranges. Are we a rushing-oriented team? Yes. We run for a higher percentage of our plays than any team except for the Broncos last year and the Broncos were an anomaly.
Like I said, you need to look at these numbers (the real ones after adjusting all the different situations) for all the teams in the first half to see whether they are RUN-first team or PASS-first team, or somewhere in between.

Other situations may include:
A run called back due to a some sort of penalties like holding.
A pass called back due to defensive holding or PI or some sort of other penalties.
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Old 07-07-2012   #48
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

I'm getting back to Schaub here.

So far by my count, the distribution in the first eight games of the season resulted in 21 more pass plays in the first half of games.


In week 9 vs the Browns, in the first half, Schaub passed 15 times, our RBs rushed 14 times.

Schaub also had a QB run near the goal line for a TD. It looks like a design run.
So we call it a run which even up the pass/run count at 15 apiece.

With a 24-3 lead at the half and the defense holding the Browns in check, there was little wonder why the Texans passed only 8 times and ran 25 times in the second half.

The Browns were out of time outs by the 2-min warning (due to 3 run plays called by the Texans.) Three more run plays ensued (including 2 kneel-downs by Schaub) ran out the last 2 minutes of the game.

These six plays should in no way get counted to say that the Texans were a run-heavy team.
Rather, it was an example how/why the rushing attempts adds up for the Texans in the second half of some games.

I'm not interested in the later numbers (what happended in sesond halves of games), but I put them out there for considerations when looking at the run/pass ratio of teams.

One reason they ran the ball more was because they had big leads in the second half of some games.
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Old 07-07-2012   #49
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

In week 10 vs the Bucs, the Texans came out of the gate with an 80-yd TD to JJ.
They never looked back as the defense was equally dominating.

Schaub was 9 of 12 in the first half while the Texans ran the ball 15 times.

This included 3 runs near the end of the half when the Texans were pinned deep near their own goal line.
From their 3, Foster lost 3 to move the ball back to the one.
Schaub sneaked for 1 to give the Texans a little breathing room (this is the play where Haynie rolled on Schaub's leg.)
Foster rushed one more time before the Texans punt.

If the Texans were to have better field position, they might not have ran the ball 3 straight times.

In the first half, Schaub was sacked once while attempting to execute a pass play. This should count as a pass play such that the run/pass count at the half was 15/13, two (2) plays in favor of the run, leading all the way through.
...


With Schaub hobbling on one leg and no AJ, the Texans only passed 3 times in the second half while recording 29 running plays.

Thanks to 3 Ints a a fumble, the defense limited the Bucs to 65 yard net gain (on 27 plays in the second half) as compared to 166 yards on 30 plays in the first half.

Again, this is another example why the Texans rushing attempts continued to mount up in the second half. It wasn't because they were a RUN-FIRST team.

On the other hand, several other teams find themselves in a big hole early and had to start to open up their passing game.

The Bucs, for example, called 2 running plays and 13 passing plays from the midway point in the second quarter to the end of the first half - after the Texans jumped out to a 16-0 lead.

The Bucs found themselves trailing big-time a lot and that was why their number of rushing attempts lagged so heavily throughout the season, which is the total reverse of the Texans.
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Old 07-07-2012   #50
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

For his tenure, the Texans run/pass count in the 10 games with Schaub was plus 19 in favor of the pass (in first halves of games.)

The rushing attempt numbers included runs to close out the half (to kill the clock and not to execute the true game plan.)
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Old 07-07-2012   #51
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

So one year when QB 1 & 2 go down along with WR 1 defines a team?

2010 - 19th in rushing attempts
2009 - 20th
2008 - 13th
2007 - 22nd

What was Kubiak's earliest big off-season move? 2 2nds and $50 mil for a QB.
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Old 07-07-2012   #52
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

Kubiak uses the pass to establish running game (clock management) shorten the game & keep defense fresh.
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Old 07-07-2012   #53
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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
For his tenure, the Texans run/pass count in the 10 games with Schaub was plus 19 in favor of the pass (in first halves of games.)

The rushing attempt numbers included runs to close out the half (to kill the clock and not to execute the true game plan.)
Why do you keep ignoring people acknowledging that we have passed the ball a lot in the past, but most people seem to think it was out of necessity rather than by design.

You can point to Yates being the cause of that all you want, but Yates threw the ball quite a bit. Not a whole lot less than schaub in his full game starts.

And that aside, schaubs passing attempts were down.
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Old 07-07-2012   #54
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

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Why do you keep ignoring people acknowledging that we have passed the ball a lot in the past, but most people seem to think it was out of necessity rather than by design.

You can point to Yates being the cause of that all you want, but Yates threw the ball quite a bit. Not a whole lot less than schaub in his full game starts.

And that aside, schaubs passing attempts were down.
I agreed with you on a few points.

I wasn't among those who "ignore" the things that make sense.

If I was to look at the games in 2010, for example, I would take into account the same things. In the past, the Texans were behind in several games and had to open the passing game. I never disagree with that.

But I'm not looking at the past.

I never said that the Texans had to resort to running the ball more with Yates either.
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Old 07-07-2012   #55
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

You have to be flexible. Healthy Andre/Foster = balanced attack but how many times have they been 100%? About the only thing stable is Defense since Wade became DC. So Kubiak must game plan accordingly, there is no right or wrong.
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Old 07-08-2012   #56
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

You can throw around numbers all you want, but it is obvious that the Texans' offensive game plan is to establish their running game first to get opposing defenses to bite on the play-action pass.
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Old 07-08-2012   #57
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
We rush 52.20% of the time. Which is pretty close to balanced.

BUT. Only 1 team rushed for a higher percentage of the time than we did: The Denver Broncos @ 53.69% of the time.

The Niners rushed 50.15% of the time.

The "average" was rushing 42.91% of the time.

The Detroit Lions rushed the least at 33.65% of the time.
This is where a definition is in order.
Strictly percentage wise - just over 50% - I'd say we're balanced.
However, compared to the rest of the league we're more run-oriented. Which is what TPN is pointing out.

I don't care what strategy we use as long as that strategy leads to mucho points.
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Old 07-08-2012   #58
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

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This is where a definition is in order.
Not really because there will never be an agreement on one. So you have been building a team for 6 years and have been at the top of the league in rushing attempts for one year even though you have been a top passing team for years - so now you are a rushing team, that was the design all along. No.

We are a WCO team (which is typically described as a passing offense). We try to make things look the same and then call plays as necessary to the down and distance and game situation. To me that is the definition of trying to build a balanced offense. We are not an air it out all the time team. We are also not a run it down your gut team We beat down TN in 2010 20 to nothing. Arian had 30 carries at 4.8 ypc. Schaub had 35 passing attempts. Schaub had 2 TD's that day, Arian none. We are balanced attack. It is the whole point of the WCO.

Let me do it another way. There are teams you look at and say it is 3rd and 2 they will pass and then other teams you say exactly the opposite. Those are the oriented teams in my book. Nobody knows if the Texans will run or pass in just about any situation.
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Old 07-09-2012   #59
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

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Kubiak uses the pass to establish running game (clock management) shorten the game & keep defense fresh.
I'm thrilled that this conversation is still going on. Gotta love the offseason.

But, I remember a time not too long ago, people on this board were begging Kubiak to throw the ball & stop relying on the likes of Ron Dayne & Achmandinajad (sp or whatever his name was).

I remember a home game vs Miami, Ron Dayne ran for 44 yards on 49 carries (I'm exagerating) but we won the game because Mario Williams tipped a pass to seal the win (& Miami sucked worse than we did).

I don't have a dog in this race, I don't think we use the pass to set up the run or the run to set up the pass. We're just bad motherF@#rs & the other team doesn't know what to expect.

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Old 07-12-2012   #60
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Default Re: The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

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Originally Posted by Mari-OWNED! View Post
You can throw around numbers all you want, but it is obvious that the Texans' offensive game plan is to establish their running game first to get opposing defenses to bite on the play-action pass.
I posted this in another thread but it fits just as well here.



The Texans pass 55% more often than they run when they don't have a two score lead.
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