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Old 06-03-2012   #81
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

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Originally Posted by G27RR View Post
I assume you're posting that to say that you don't have problems with it. If so, great and I'm glad it works for you. I said "some adults" can have problems and that's why people were wondering what some of the other reasons were that people may take it.

I also didn't say I didn't believe Brett. He should have followed the rules though and reported it, then none of us would even be having this discussion.
I was just giving a point of reference. Ritalin works for me. Adderal didn't do anything.

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Old 06-03-2012   #82
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

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Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
I guess Hartmann picked the wrong treatment drug



Brown suspension was overturned, Hartmanns reduced

I wonder why they didn't wipe out both suspensions ?(being Brown didn't get permission either)
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...s-been-lifted/
Because selig called in a favor.

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Old 06-03-2012   #83
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Maybe there's more to the story than JUST taking meds for ADHD, or ADD. I KNOW I read somewhere that Hartmann got caught with elevated levels for mj. Maybe they're just trying to be NICE and cover up that part. I have NO reference to that at all, just remember reading it somewhere when he first got suspended. Maybe someone was just spectulating at the time! Just a thought. LOTS of crap being covered up in the NFL these days.
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Old 06-03-2012   #84
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

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Originally Posted by SheTexan View Post
Maybe there's more to the story than JUST taking meds for ADHD, or ADD. I KNOW I read somewhere that Hartmann got caught with elevated levels for mj. Maybe they're just trying to be NICE and cover up that part. I have NO reference to that at all, just remember reading it somewhere when he first got suspended. Maybe someone was just spectulating at the time! Just a thought. LOTS of crap being covered up in the NFL these days.
NFL>>>>>>selective memory, selective pursuit, selective justice.......
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Old 06-03-2012   #85
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

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Originally Posted by SheTexan View Post
Maybe there's more to the story than JUST taking meds for ADHD, or ADD. I KNOW I read somewhere that Hartmann got caught with elevated levels for mj. Maybe they're just trying to be NICE and cover up that part. I have NO reference to that at all, just remember reading it somewhere when he first got suspended. Maybe someone was just spectulating at the time! Just a thought. LOTS of crap being covered up in the NFL these days.
The marijuana was postulated on many sites prior to the revelation of Ritalin. Apparently no validity.
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Old 06-03-2012   #86
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

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I wish we had a former college or pro kicker or punter on the MB who could explain why one person can't learn to do both. It's always seemed odd to me.
This like asking me why some professional writers are great essayists and others great novelists or other superior poets since its all writing or why a great presecutor rarely depends anyone (or vise versa) since it all looks like lawyering to me.

There are different skills and techniques involved, place kicking is different than punting. Yeah a good kicker probably does the other better than anyone else on the roster, but that does not make him one of the 32 best in the world at a job function. So, like all writers don't write everything equally, all lawyers don't lawyer everything equally, all kickers don't kick evetything equally.
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Old 06-03-2012   #87
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

While I don't normally support the hecklers of Goodell, the subjective/selective punishment system is really galling. To fans, to players, to teams, etc.

Look, it shouldn't matter one freaking bit of Brown did A, B, and C and didn't do X, Y, and Z...and then Hartmann did X, Y, and Z, but did not do A, B, and C. If a guy did a drug on the list, then the guy gets punished. And you don't exonerate one guy completely and then merely reduce the other guys's suspension by one measly game (from the original 4-game suspension down to Hartmann's current 3-game suspension).

McNair should make a personal visit to Goodell like he did back with the Cushing incident. The meeting should be about the level of inconsistency in the handling of the two or three cases with the ADHD drugs.

Goodell is perhaps also over-reaching a bit in the suspensions against the Bounty Gate offenders. He's got a ledger as "evidence" but how the hell can it be proven that the ledger was signed off on (or kept) by players??? For all we know, it was one of Williams' sycophant assistants who kept a ledger and the players never wrote anything nor even initialed it each week!

One thing is for sure, tyrants always keep morbid ledgers of their injustices...I mean, why is it always that the evil people of this world feel compelled to keep a written record of their travesties?!?!? Duh, it's going to one day be used against you! Shaking my muther effing head over that sort of stuff. The complete idiocy of these people to think written records help them more than hurt them. "You know what will really be of great use? If we kept detailed records of every person we hurt. I mean, all the great tyrants do it. Let's start keeping a physical record of our bounties. Plus, we need to also make sure cameras are in the room when we preach to our players about purposefully targeting opponents who have injury histories already. I think this is really going to put our team over the top. Enough of the small potatoes. Let's go FULL BORE."

I applaud what the commish is doing on reducing head injuries/trauma. He's genuinely trying to save the game IMO. It sucks that the NFL "we are accustomed to" is changing, but overall it's a move with the future in mind.

However, Goodell's handling of suspensions is nightmarish at best. It seems to be subjective or selective, and the two or three cases with the ADHD drugs is really cementing that perception people have of Goodell. Throw in the muck and mire of the Bounty Gate player suspensions and Goodell is making a bit of a mess for himself right now.

I think the players stand a good chance of getting reductions or all-out dismissals if it somehow gets to a system beyond the NFL's judiciary system which is anything but judicious. But IIRC, the NFLPA waived certain aspects of arbitration...just not sure if it covers player suspensions too or just revenue sharing stuff.
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Old 06-03-2012   #88
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

I don't get it; all players are told not to take any supplement or medication without approval and he just forgot? That's costly to the team.
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Old 06-03-2012   #89
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

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This like asking me why some professional writers are great essayists and others great novelists or other superior poets since its all writing or why a great presecutor rarely depends anyone (or vise versa) since it all looks like lawyering to me.




on a serious note, I know what it was a typo
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Old 06-03-2012   #90
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

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Originally Posted by Wolf View Post




on a serious note, I know what it was a typo
I make plenty of typos and type plenty of depends type material.
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Old 06-03-2012   #91
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
While I don't normally support the hecklers of Goodell, the subjective/selective punishment system is really galling. To fans, to players, to teams, etc.

Look, it shouldn't matter one freaking bit of Brown did A, B, and C and didn't do X, Y, and Z...and then Hartmann did X, Y, and Z, but did not do A, B, and C. If a guy did a drug on the list, then the guy gets punished. And you don't exonerate one guy completely and then merely reduce the other guys's suspension by one measly game (from the original 4-game suspension down to Hartmann's current 3-game suspension).

McNair should make a personal visit to Goodell like he did back with the Cushing incident. The meeting should be about the level of inconsistency in the handling of the two or three cases with the ADHD drugs.

Goodell is perhaps also over-reaching a bit in the suspensions against the Bounty Gate offenders. He's got a ledger as "evidence" but how the hell can it be proven that the ledger was signed off on (or kept) by players??? For all we know, it was one of Williams' sycophant assistants who kept a ledger and the players never wrote anything nor even initialed it each week!

One thing is for sure, tyrants always keep morbid ledgers of their injustices...I mean, why is it always that the evil people of this world feel compelled to keep a written record of their travesties?!?!? Duh, it's going to one day be used against you! Shaking my muther effing head over that sort of stuff. The complete idiocy of these people to think written records help them more than hurt them. "You know what will really be of great use? If we kept detailed records of every person we hurt. I mean, all the great tyrants do it. Let's start keeping a physical record of our bounties. Plus, we need to also make sure cameras are in the room when we preach to our players about purposefully targeting opponents who have injury histories already. I think this is really going to put our team over the top. Enough of the small potatoes. Let's go FULL BORE."

I applaud what the commish is doing on reducing head injuries/trauma. He's genuinely trying to save the game IMO. It sucks that the NFL "we are accustomed to" is changing, but overall it's a move with the future in mind.

However, Goodell's handling of suspensions is nightmarish at best. It seems to be subjective or selective, and the two or three cases with the ADHD drugs is really cementing that perception people have of Goodell. Throw in the muck and mire of the Bounty Gate player suspensions and Goodell is making a bit of a mess for himself right now.

I think the players stand a good chance of getting reductions or all-out dismissals if it somehow gets to a system beyond the NFL's judiciary system which is anything but judicious. But IIRC, the NFLPA waived certain aspects of arbitration...just not sure if it covers player suspensions too or just revenue sharing stuff.
This is the best, most inclusive, understandable legal analysis of the issues involved in this "conflict" that I've ever come across. It comes from THE LEGALBLITZ.COM, a sports law site. It answers your question.......and many more.

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How Roger Goodell Got Appeals Power, and Can Suspended Players Sue?
Posted on May 9, 2012 by Ben

No one can accuse NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell of leniency in his response to the New Orleans Saints bounty scandal. Four players were suspended a total of 31 regular-season games, including Jonathan Vilma who will miss the entire 2012 season. All four players, with the support of the NFL Players Association have appealed their suspensions. Many analysts have predicted that the appeals process could eventually lead to a lawsuit in Federal Court. The Legal Blitz spoke with attorney Adam B. Marks about the NFL’s appeals process and the potential for ensuing federal lawsuits. Marks is a lawyer for Updike, Kelly & Spellacy, P.C. in Connecticut. He is also the author of Personnel Foul on the National Football League Players Association: How Union Executive Director Gene Upshaw Failed the Union’s Members by not Fighting the Enactment of the Personal Conduct Policy, 40 Conn. L. Rev. 1581 (2008). Marks discusses with the Legal Blitz the NFL’s appeals process, how the latest collective bargaining agreement does (or does not) govern the process, and what the players will need to prove to prevail in federal court.


What is the process for appealing these suspensions, and is there any chance that the players will get a reduction?

The NFLPA has filed two grievances on behalf of the suspended Saints’ players. In the first grievance, the union has claimed that NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is prohibited from suspending players for behavior that occurred before the latest collective bargaining agreement took effect on August 4, 2011. This argument is based on a section of the new CBA that prohibits Goodell from suspending players for their conduct before that date. The NFLPA is arguing for a broad interpretation of that clause, seeking for it to reach beyond the issues the NFL claims the clause was intended to cover, namely Personal Conduct Policy violations during the labor dispute and lockout. The NFLPA is arguing that the clause is essentially an immunity clause that encompasses any player behavior taking place prior to the effective date of the new CBA, including the behavior underlying these suspensions.

The NFLPA has also filed a second grievance asking an arbitrator to determine that the conduct at issue is not punishable pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy, but rather that the suspensions are for non-disclosed payments to players, which is a violation of the collective bargaining agreement and would have to be dealt with under the terms of the CBA. If that were the case, then Goodell would not be permitted to levy these suspensions against the Saints’ players. Instead, the discipline would have to be handed down by arbitrator Stephen Burbank of the University of Pennsylvania Law School, who, pursuant to the terms of the CBA, handles discipline related to salary-cap violations.

Additionally, the four suspended players have each filed appeals pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy. These appeals were filed with Commissioner Goodell, who originally imposed the suspensions. From what I understand, the players are arguing that they have not seen any proof of their guilt and they should not be suspended until they have had an opportunity to review and rebut the evidence against them. This direct appeal to Goodell has the lowest likelihood of success.

It is difficult to determine the likelihood of these suspensions being reduced until it is determined who will be reviewing the suspensions. If the appeals are handled by Goodell pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy, it is unlikely the suspensions will be reduced. If the suspensions are instead reviewed by another party, whether it is an independent arbitrator or Ted Cottrell and Art Shell, who review on-the-field conduct suspensions for the NFL, then there is a better chance that the suspensions may be reduced.

Talk about why it’s important that the league categorized this as an off-the-field incident. Can this determination be challenged?

The NFLPA has already challenged the determination of this behavior as an off-the-field incident. This is important because it determines who will review the suspensions. Any suspension pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy for off-the-field conduct is appealed back to Roger Goodell, who imposes the suspensions being appealed. This is akin to a judge sentencing a defendant to prison, and the defendant’s only right of appeal is to the same judge.

If a suspension were characterized as being given for on-the-field conduct, then the suspension is reviewed by Ted Cottrell and Art Shell pursuant to the terms of the collective bargaining agreement. Obviously if the appeal is heard by someone other than the person who levied the suspension in the first place then it is more likely the suspension may be reduced.

Didn’t the players union essentially waive the right to a meaningful appeal under the current CBA?

The right to a meaningful appeal was waived long before the current CBA was agreed to. The right was waived when Gene Upshaw allowed Roger Goodell to put the Personal Conduct Policy in place without requiring it to be collectively bargained. Once the policy was put in place, if the NFLPA wanted to bargain to have Commissioner Goodell give up his right to hear appeals stemming from suspensions pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy, it would have to give something to the owners at the bargaining table. Upshaw gave the league and the owners all the leverage regarding the Personal Conduct Policy.

You have to remember that during the most recent lockout the players had bigger issues they needed resolved than discipline pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy, which affects only a few players each season. They were fighting against a longer schedule, for improved safety, retirement benefits, and, of course, revenue sharing between the players and owners—matters that affect all union members. Appeal pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy was certainly discussed during bargaining, in fact, it was one of the final issues to be agreed upon, but no change to the appeal process was included in the CBA as it was ratified. In fact, the Personal Conduct Policy is still not a part of the CBA at all. When it came down to the eleventh hour of negotiations, the NFLPA backed off its stance that Goodell’s retention of the appeal process was a deal breaker, and instead agreed to the terms of the CBA. The Personal Conduct Policy remains a league policy, and not a policy included in the CBA.

Adam Shefter predicted “a massive legal battle on many fronts” from the suspension fallout. Is he right?

The NFLPA will certainly do everything it can to fight these suspensions. On Friday, the union filed a pair of grievances with two arbitrators regarding Roger Goodell’s authority to suspend the Saints’ players. All four players have filed appeals of their suspensions pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy. Depending on the success of those grievances and appeals, you could see the NFLPA or the individual players file suit against the NFL in district court. The caveat is that unless the NFLPA can prove that these suspensions in some way violated the terms of the CBA, or that the Personal Conduct Policy itself violates federal law, the players are unlikely to have a persuasive argument in court.

Discuss how the players could take this issue to federal court, and what the players would need to prove there.

These suspensions were imposed pursuant to the Personal Conduct Policy, which is not a part of the CBA. The Policy was not collectively bargained when it was adopted in 2007, and the new CBA does not incorporate the Policy into its terms. This means that unless the NFLPA is successful in one of its grievances, which nothing I have read indicates it will be, the terms of the CBA do not govern any legal action taken by the players with regard to these suspensions.

This means that the suspended players will have to challenge the legality of the Personal Conduct Policy. The players and union would have to argue that the Personal Conduct Policy violates federal labor law because it is a policy that affects union members’ wages that was not collectively bargained for. The National Labor Relations Act requires an employer to bargain with a union in good faith “with respect to wages, hours, and other terms and conditions of employment.” If the players are able to successfully convince a judge that the Personal Conduct Policy is a policy that directly affects player wages because the commissioner is entitled to impose unpaid suspensions, then it is possible the Policy would be declared a violation of federal law. For a more detailed discussion of this argument, as well as an argument that would permit suspended players to play in the Canadian Football League during the term of their suspensions, please refer your readers to my note, Personnel Foul on the National Football League Players Association: How Union Executive Director Gene Upshaw Failed the Union’s Members by not Fighting the Enactment of the Personal Conduct Policy, 40 Conn. L. Rev. 1581 (2008).

Do you think this incident will be a lesson learned for the NFLPA for their next CBA negotiations?

I would have thought that the NFLPA would not have agreed to a new CBA that allowed Goodell to retain his powers to levy suspensions and hear appeals under the Personal Conduct Policy. The new CBA does not address the Personal Conduct Policy, which instead remains a league policy not subject to collective bargaining. It is difficult to fault the NFLPA, which in almost all respects did a good job representing players’ interests during the negotiations of the new CBA, but until the union is willing to give up something valuable at the bargaining table during negotiations, the Personal Conduct Policy will remain beyond the terms of the CBA and Goodell will retain his unchecked power to suspend players and uphold those suspensions himself.

*Adam Marks is an attorney at Updike, Kelly & Spellacy, P.C. in Hartford, Connecticut and the author of Personnel Foul on the National Football League Players Association: How Union Executive Director Gene Upshaw Failed the Union’s Members by not Fighting the Enactment of the Personal Conduct Policy, 40 Conn. L. Rev. 1581 (2008). This interview is a general discussion of certain legal and related developments, does not create an attorney-client relationship between Mr. Marks and any of our readers, and should not be construed or relied upon as legal advice. Anyone whose own legal rights and obligations may be affected by the general legal principles discussed should seek the advice of an attorney with respect to the particular facts and circumstances of their case.
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Old 06-06-2012   #92
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

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I don't get it; all players are told not to take any supplement or medication without approval and he just forgot? That's costly to the team.
If they were not on the correct medication when...look a squirrel.
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Old 06-06-2012   #93
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

well, at least he got one game knocked off. Check out this from Rotoworld:


Mike Neal - DL - Packers
Suspended Packers DE Mike Neal says his positive test was triggered by the prescription drug Adderall.
Adderall is commonly used to treat attention deficit disorder, but is on the league's banned substances list. Players are allowed to take it so long as they provide full "medical information" to the league. Neal did not. "I didn’t do anything wrong. I just went and sought help that I thought I needed," Neal said. His four-game ban is unlikely to be overturned.
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Old 09-24-2012   #94
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

@caplannfl: Former #Texans P Brett Hartmann, who was already suspended 3 games by the NFL, has been suspended 8 more games, per source.
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Old 09-24-2012   #95
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

For what?
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Old 09-24-2012   #96
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Several of the 8 game suspensions that I remember being handed out are on the basis of lying to Goodell.
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Old 09-24-2012   #97
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

well dam...
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Old 09-24-2012   #98
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

wow. I was pulling for the kid
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Old 09-24-2012   #99
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Jones has been steady for us so I doubt we were going to bring him back, but I really do hope he gets an opportunity to play for someone either this year or next.
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Old 09-24-2012   #100
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Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Really?? And I'm not trying to be offensive here. Are we really concerned whether or not we'll get a punter back???
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