Mussops mock

[powda]

Originally Posted by mussop

we run a lot of 2 TE sets

We run even more 2 WR sets

Originally Posted by mussop

Dreeson TE #2 led the team last year in TD receptions

Joel Dreessen: 28 receptions 353 yards and a whopping 6 td's

I guess that kinda production just can be replaced without using a first round pick? But lets not overlook the production of our recievers...

Kevin Walter 39 receptions 474 yards 3 td's
Jacoby Jones 31 receptions 512 yards 2 td's

I was an appologist for a long time with Walter and always hoped for the best with Jones. But it is what it is and its time to upgrade. Peculiar how you chose to pimp Dreessen's stats without mentioning how bad the recievers played.

Originally Posted by mussop

I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks we are locked into any one position as our first round pick. It's flat out silly!!!!

I never suggested any such thing. I'd be happy with us drafting multiple other positions in the first.

Originally Posted by mussop

I think the problem here is not that I am infatuated with a player but that you're infatuated with drafting a WR.

See above. If anything i'm infatuated with improving the team as fast as possible. Our draft picks are more valuable then ever now given our cap situation. Im infatuated with not squandering our resources on players we dont need. We have other more pressing needs. Hope your not to "short sighted" to see that.

Originally Posted by mussop

YOUR REASONING

I'm sorry but explain this to me again????

Try scrolling in this thread. I dont need to rehash this for you.

Originally Posted by mussop

there is no reason to continue this conversaition.

You dont handle criticizm very well do you? It's just a mock. You dont have to threaten it...just dont reply

[mussop]

Originally Posted by powda

We run even more 2 WR sets

Not in the red zone.

Originally Posted by powda

Joel Dreessen: 28 receptions 353 yards and a whopping 6 td's

And OD our starting TE 54 receptions 677 yards and a whopping 3 td's[/quote] And on top of that will be 30 this year, has a huge contract and has missed 13 games in the last 3 years. Thats 3 games shy of an entire season. But hey getting a top flight TE that can be a huge weapon immediately and take over for OD either when he goes down with an injury this year or when we cut him next year is stupid when we can reach for a WR in the first round instead just because you hate J Jones for dropping a punt right!

Originally Posted by powda

I guess that kinda production just can be replaced without using a first round pick? But lets not overlook the production of our recievers...

Sure it can. For the last time I have never said different. This is you putting words in my mouth because either because you are too lazy to read the whole thread or you have a reading problem.

Originally Posted by powda

Kevin Walter 39 receptions 474 yards 3 td's
Jacoby Jones 31 receptions 512 yards 2 td's

Matt Schaub was on pace to throw for over 4000 yards with the same WR's you think HAVE TO BE REPLACED!

Originally Posted by powda

I was an appologist for a long time with Walter and always hoped for the best with Jones. But it is what it is and its time to upgrade. Peculiar how you chose to pimp Dreessen's stats without mentioning how bad the recievers played.

The only stat of Dreesons I brought up was that he led the team in TD receptions to show that the backup TE is an important piece in our red zone offense.

Originally Posted by powda

I never suggested any such thing. I'd be happy with us drafting multiple other positions in the first.

Are you sure? because your entire argument seems to be centered around the WR position. In fact I haven't seen you specifically mention a single other position period other than WR in this thread.

Originally Posted by powda

See above. If anything i'm infatuated with improving the team as fast as possible. Our draft picks are more valuable then ever now given our cap situation. Im infatuated with not squandering our resources on players we dont need. We have other more pressing needs. Hope your not to "short sighted" to see that.

No you are not! You hate Jones because of one play and have your heart set on drafting his replacement with our first round pick. Admit it! YOu see it sucks when someone puts words in your mouth doesn't it?

As I have said repeatedly in this thread, we have many holes on this team and and several positions that have depleted depth. Several that are in worse shape than WR. I don't care what position we draft in the first round or any round for that matter. I just want good value for the pick. I did this mock to spur some new discussion other than drafting a WR in the first round. If you don't want to hear or talk about another position besides WR in the first round feel free to look at 99.9% of the other mocks out there.

There are 4 players that I would be ecstatic with with our first round pick. And it has nothing to do with what position they play. Fleener, Worthy, Decastro and Floyd. Thats four different positions. Thats 4 players that will IMO improve the team and be great value at 26. Other than those 4 I would prefer to trade down.

Your problem is you can't look past a players position and see what he is capable of bringing to the team. I call this Maddenidus! And you have a severe case of it my friend.

Originally Posted by powda

You dont handle criticizm very well do you? It's just a mock. You dont have to threaten it...just dont reply

I think it is you that has the problem with criticism. Obviously you took the "short sighted " comment to heart. Let me explain once AGAIN that I don't think you are short sighted because you don't want a TE in the first round. I think it would be short sighted to get UPSET if we did draft a TE when it is obviously a need. I'll debate with you how big a need TE is but whether or not its a need is not open for debate.

[steelbtexan]

My top 4 players value wise for the Texans are

1. Hill
2. Gilmore
3. McClellin
4. Fleener

Earlier this yr I had Randle as my #1. But after doing a little more studying I would be more comfortable taking Randle in the 2nd rd. He's a big WR with good not great speed and a below avg vertical. (I put alot more stock in the vertical than the 40 if both are close. Because the vertical shows explosion and is very valuable in the red zone.)

[mussop]

Originally Posted by steelbtexan

My top 4 players value wise for the Texans are

1. Hill
2. Gilmore
3. McClellin
4. Fleener

Earlier this yr I had Randle as my #1. But after doing a little more studying I would be more comfortable taking Randle in the 2nd rd. He's a big WR with good not great speed and a below avg vertical. (I put alot more stock in the vertical than the 40 if both are close. Because the vertical shows explosion and is very valuable in the red zone.)

Just too much risk involved with Hill for me but won't hate the pick if we get him.

Gilmore I haven't really payed much attention to the CB's to be honest. Just don't see us taking one high and they are so hard (for me) to evaluate. I'll take your word for it if you think he is good enough.

McClellin I love this guy. He was formed from a Texans mold. Would love it. Thought about adding him to my top four. Still considering it.

Fleener Just ask Powda how I feel about Fleener.

[powda]

Originally Posted by mussop

Not in the red zone.

Link?

Maybe if we had better recievers we wouldnt be forced to rely on a second tier tight end anywhere on the field.

Originally Posted by mussop

And OD our starting TE 54 receptions 677 yards and a whopping 3 td's And on top of that will be 30 this year, has a huge contract and has missed 13 games in the last 3 years.Thats 3 games shy of an entire season.

Andre Johnson has missed 12 games in the last 2 years, has a huge contract, and will 31 this year.

Originally Posted by mussop

we can reach for a WR in the first round instead just because you hate J Jones for dropping a punt right!

I did not suggest reaching for any position or mention Jacoby's facemask punt returning skills. If im interupreting you correctly now your arrguing:

A. we should draft a tightend in the first round
B. Jacoby Jones / Kevin Walter are good

Thats just fruity.

Originally Posted by mussop

Matt Schaub was on pace to throw for over 4000 yards with the same WR's you think HAVE TO BE REPLACED!

Schaub was on pace to throw for 3966 yard which would be his lowest career total with the Texans since 2008. Thats 400 yards less then 2010 and 800 yards less then 2009. So is Schaub on the decline or our recieving core? Its cheaper to replace a couple of recievers then a quarterback.

Originally Posted by mussop

The only stat of Dreesons I brought up was that he led the team in TD receptions to show that the backup TE is an important piece in our red zone offense.

So your arrgument here is that a back up tightend who's not on the field as much as a starting reciever scored more Td's then that reciever...hence...he's more important then the recievers and we should ignore their lack of playmaking?

Originally Posted by mussop

Are you sure? because your entire argument seems to be centered around the WR position. In fact I haven't seen you specifically mention a single other position period other than WR in this thread.

If were going to draft an offensive weapon in the first round it should be a reciever who actually threatens the safetys. If we draft a linebacker, cornerback, or linemen I see the merit of the selection assuming they are the best player available. Your focus has been an offensive weapon which I can agree with. I dont agree that it should be a tight end.

Originally Posted by mussop

I just want good value for the pick.

So do I which is why i'm opposed to your opinion. I dont think Fleener will be the best player on the board and you have made no mention of Casey whom I think will get some time on occasion at the second TE spot.

Originally Posted by mussop

I call this Maddenidus! And you have a severe case of it my friend.

So should I get antibiotics?

Originally Posted by mussop

whether or not its a need is not open for debate.

No debate here.

[rmartin65]

I love the idea of drafting Fleener. Let me post my thoughts here.

At 6'6" and almost 250 lbs, Fleener has natural TE size, so it is not like he is a WR/TE hybrid. You can split him out wide, or line him up as a traditional TE. While he is not a strong blocker, it is not a weakness. Just because he is known for his play in the pass game does not mean he is a liability in the run game.

Where Fleener makes his money is with the ball in his hands. He runs a 4.5 40- that is WR speed. He has good explosion numbers as well, better than many receiver prospects. At most importantly, he has soft hands. I do not remember seeing a lot of drops from Fleener. He is good at getting open, and good at catching the ball. And that is what you want to see.

There are still 3 weeks to go until draft day, but I think Fleener is my choice for the first round pick, unless a top talent falls.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by rmartin65

I love the idea of drafting Fleener. Let me post my thoughts here.

At 6'6" and almost 250 lbs, Fleener has natural TE size, so it is not like he is a WR/TE hybrid. You can split him out wide, or line him up as a traditional TE. While he is not a strong blocker, it is not a weakness. Just because he is known for his play in the pass game does not mean he is a liability in the run game.

Where Fleener makes his money is with the ball in his hands. He runs a 4.5 40- that is WR speed. He has good explosion numbers as well, better than many receiver prospects. At most importantly, he has soft hands. I do not remember seeing a lot of drops from Fleener. He is good at getting open, and good at catching the ball. And that is what you want to see.

There are still 3 weeks to go until draft day, but I think Fleener is my choice for the first round pick, unless a top talent falls.

Wow...

You sold me...

I haven't watched him a lot, but I think I'm going to go look at some clips now..

[otisbean]

Originally Posted by rmartin65

I love the idea of drafting Fleener. Let me post my thoughts here.

At 6'6" and almost 250 lbs, Fleener has natural TE size, so it is not like he is a WR/TE hybrid. You can split him out wide, or line him up as a traditional TE. While he is not a strong blocker, it is not a weakness. Just because he is known for his play in the pass game does not mean he is a liability in the run game.

Where Fleener makes his money is with the ball in his hands. He runs a 4.5 40- that is WR speed. He has good explosion numbers as well, better than many receiver prospects. At most importantly, he has soft hands. I do not remember seeing a lot of drops from Fleener. He is good at getting open, and good at catching the ball. And that is what you want to see.

There are still 3 weeks to go until draft day, but I think Fleener is my choice for the first round pick, unless a top talent falls.

Would love to add Fleener. I view him as a weapon, plain and simple regardless of his position. His speed makes him a tough match up for LBs and his size makes him tough for DBs. He could absolutely spilt out wide as well. So many possibilities. There are other players I like as well, but at this point I favor Fleener over Hill or Randle.

[ObsiWan]

Originally Posted by powda

Why do I feel like someone's trying to sale me snake oil? If you want to shake it up to get a response to your mock thats cool. If you genuinely believe we need a tight end in the first your short sighted. I dont doubt for a second we will draft a TE ,but to suggest its a priority need with all the other holes on this roster is short sighted. We have plenty of people whom can attack the defense horizontially on short crossing routes etc. What we dont have is anyone other then AJ who threatens deep (be it by speed or after the catch ability.)

I stand by my statement. If we draft a TE in the first i'll go ballistic.



We sign players at all positions. They liked Vickers so much he's in Dallas now. Kubiak has never drafted a full back (don't chime in with Casey who was a hybrid do all in college).

That's rather absolute without knowing the circumstances don't you think?

Here's a perfectly plausible scenario where TE is the best pick @ #26:
If the top 4-5 WRs are already taken, the top couple of OL and OLBs are also gone - most mocks I've seen indicate that there aren't more than 2 or 3 guys at each of those positions worthy of a 1st round pick. So that says that the remaining guys at our positions of need (WR, OLB, or OL) have 2nd round grades. So unless we can find a trade partner we take the BPA. And if that guy happens to be Fleener then why not take him?

[powda]

Trade back.

[beerlover]

Originally Posted by powda

Trade back.

I've heard Seattle (#12) is interested in Fleener, they would like to trade back & then draft him somewhere before Cleveland (#22) who also is interested. But if he does make it to the Texans #26 the Giants would be willing to trade their 3rd to get him. This would give Texans two picks in the 3rd rd. & 4th rd. that's 9 selections in all

[aussie_texan]

Originally Posted by beerlover

I've heard Seattle (#12) is interested in Fleener, they would like to trade back & then draft him somewhere before Cleveland (#22) who also is interested. But if he does make it to the Texans #26 the Giants would be willing to trade their 3rd to get him. This would give Texans two picks in the 3rd rd. & 4th rd. that's 9 selections in all

Trading with the giants would be a dream scenario because we get the extra pick but still many prospects we value should be around

[SW H-TOWN]

Good mock, you just need a Kicker and somebody who can rush the QB.

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by SW H-TOWN

Good mock, you just need a Kicker and somebody who can rush the QB.

I agree. Drafting a FB is kind of a waste of a pick, especially with Casey on the roster and drafting a TE high. Swap out the 6th for a kicker and I think this would be a pretty good mock. I'm not too thrilled with the Fleener pick, but I can see the value in it. OD probably won't be here after this year, so we need a good pass catcher to replace him. Just need to teach him how to block well and he could be the #1 TE next year.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

I agree. Drafting a FB is kind of a waste of a pick, especially with Casey on the roster and drafting a TE high. Swap out the 6th for a kicker and I think this would be a pretty good mock. I'm not too thrilled with the Fleener pick, but I can see the value in it. OD probably won't be here after this year, so we need a good pass catcher to replace him. Just need to teach him how to block well and he could be the #1 TE next year.

Just trying to look at the draft from a different prospective from the one thats been beaten to death for the last two months. Drafting a TE while maybe not an immediate huge need, could pay off big next year if cap problems continue like they have. And Fleener is good enough that he would make significant contributions this year IMO and could possibly be a major player for us in the near future. Add to that that this is a late first the risk is worth the potential reward.

Rodriquez isn't your typical FB. He is more a Casey clone. Those types aren't as easy to find in FA. I don't care for having a thumper at FB. Having two really good TE's and two receiving threats out of the backfield will loosen defenses up enough for us in short yardage situations and it will keep Foster from having to take a beating in those situations.


As far as adding another pass rusher goes. I have a plan! Trade next years first and a late pick (say our 4th) with New England for one of their first this year and draft either Branch or McClellin.

[beerlover]

Exactly how inferior prospect is Egnew to Fleener? Late 1st vs early 3rd.

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by mussop

Just trying to look at the draft from a different prospective from the one thats been beaten to death for the last two months. Drafting a TE while maybe not an immediate huge need, could pay off big next year if cap problems continue like they have. And Fleener is good enough that he would make significant contributions this year IMO and could possibly be a major player for us in the near future. Add to that that this is a late first the risk is worth the potential reward.

No problem with that at all. I always like seeing mocks, the good, bad and the weird

Rodriquez isn't your typical FB. He is more a Casey clone. Those types aren't as easy to find in FA. I don't care for having a thumper at FB. Having two really good TE's and two receiving threats out of the backfield will loosen defenses up enough for us in short yardage situations and it will keep Foster from having to take a beating in those situations.

Well, why do we need a Casey clone if we have Casey? We have Casey on the roster now, and he won't command much money as a free agent next year. I'm sure we can re-sign him, he's a Houston guy, went to Rice, has a family here. I think the Texans will have him as long as they want.

As far as adding another pass rusher goes. I have a plan! Trade next years first and a late pick (say our 4th) with New England for one of their first this year and draft either Branch or McClellin.

No need to trade the 4th, the Pats would be happy with just a future first. They won't expect the Texans to make it too deep into the playoffs next year, so it will likely be considered a 20-28th pick. Could get #27 or 31 this year from them, like the Saints did when they traded their 2012 first for the 28th pick in the draft last year.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by beerlover

I've heard Seattle (#12) is interested in Fleener, they would like to trade back & then draft him somewhere before Cleveland (#22) who also is interested. But if he does make it to the Texans #26 the Giants would be willing to trade their 3rd to get him. This would give Texans two picks in the 3rd rd. & 4th rd. that's 9 selections in all

Trade our first for the Giants first and third? I would do that. I would even trade down again if I could. There is a lot of talent at positions of need for us in the second round of this draft.

I think we are going to see alot more trades this year than we usually do. Teams will be willing to part way with later picks to move up since the money won't be so high. Wonder how this will affect the value chart?

[mussop]

Originally Posted by beerlover

Exactly how inferior prospect is Egnew to Fleener? Late 1st vs early 3rd.

I like Egnew. He is my second favorite TE. I have him rated a late 3rd or fourth round pick. He's on my new mock. I have said many times that Egnew reminds me alot of OD.

[rarazz00]

Originally Posted by mussop

1st Coby Fleener TE Stanford Sr 6-6 247

With all the 2 TE sets we run and the pending cap problems/huge contract OD has going into next year, getting a top flight TE should be important. Fleener is the best TE in this draft period and is as close as you get to can't miss.

2nd Mitchell Schwartz OT California Sr 6-5 318

We have no real depth at OT and Schwartz is a perfect fit for our system. He can also play OG.


3rd Mike Martin DT Michigan Sr 6-1 306

Adding another active player to our front seven rotation is going to pay huge dividends down the dtretch.

4th a Greg Childs WR Arkansas Sr 6-3 219

Do I need to explain this pick?

4th b Derek Wolfe DE Cincinnati Sr 6-5 295

AGAIN = Adding another active player to our front seven rotation is going to pay huge dividends down the stretch.


5th Audie Cole ILB NC State rSr 6-4 246

Competition for Sharpton. Have to have more quality depth here.

6th Evan Rodriguez FB Temple Sr 6-1 239

Backs up Casey and don't have to change anything when he is in.

7th J.R. Sweezy DT NC State rSr 6-5 298

AGAIN = Adding another active player to our front seven rotation is going to pay huge dividends down the stretch.

Not too excited about Coby Fleener, but I can roll with it as well
Love the 2nd pick (Schwartz)
wont argue too much on the 3rd(Martin) but I will say Derek Wolf is listed as DE/DL and would he not make for a better DL here as he will be gone by the end of the 3rd?
we both love Childs
I got Tank Carder and you got Cole..Tank is 2" smaller and 10lbs lighter than your guy, though my guy is faster..both have done well in college
Don't know of the 6th or 7th pick, so I cant respond to the players..