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Old 04-03-2012   #21
Rey
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
Kubiak views the TE position as one that can be developed easier than most with deep pool to draw from, similar case with FB. not going to pay them big bucks, Daniels deal was very generous (Rick Smith standards) exception to the rule.
I have never heard Kubiak say that.

I think that Kubiak has worked with the resources he's had available, but if he has the opprotunity to grab a Gronkowski, Hernandez, Jimmy Grahm, Shannon Sharpe, Tony Gonzalez, Antonio Gates type TE he will do so in a heartbeat...

The problem that you run into with marginal players and coaching them up to be good in your system is that you end up over valuing them and ultimately over spending on them...

I'd rather pay an elite player top money than to pay a good player that you have made look great.
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Old 04-03-2012   #22
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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I have never heard Kubiak say that.

I think that Kubiak has worked with the resources he's had available, but if he has the opprotunity to grab a Gronkowski, Hernandez, Jimmy Grahm, Shannon Sharpe, Tony Gonzalez, Antonio Gates type TE he will do so in a heartbeat...

The problem that you run into with marginal players and coaching them up to be good in your system is that you end up over valuing them and ultimately over spending on them...

I'd rather pay an elite player top money than to pay a good player that you have made look great.
Kubiaks not going to say this but his actions speak for themselves.
  • Owen Daniels, 4th rd. 2006
  • Anthony Hill, 4th rd. 2009
  • James Casey, 5th rd. 2009
  • Garrett Graham, 4th rd. 2010
  • Dorian Dickerson, 7th rd. 2010
  • Joel Dreessen, 6th rd. (Jets) 2005 acquired by Texans 2006 as a FA

This notion Texans cannot replace Joel a good teammate & person, well, is laughable
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Old 04-03-2012   #23
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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[*]Anthony Dickerson, 7th rd. 2010
Think you mean Dorian Dickerson but your point stands strong nonetheless. No argument here.

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
This notion Texans cannot replace Joel a good teammate & person, well, is laughable
According to mussop we're shortsighted if we dont believe the Texans have to use a first round pick to replace him.
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Old 04-03-2012   #24
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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Think you mean Dorian Dickerson but your point stands strong nonetheless. No argument here.



According to mussop we're shortsighted if we dont believe the Texans have to use a first round pick to replace him.
Learn how to read! Until then it's a waste of time responding to you.

Beerlover show me anyone that has said Dreeson can't be replaced.
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Old 04-03-2012   #25
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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Learn how to read! Until then it's a waste of time responding to you.
If you dont want an opinion dont post a mock draft. I expressed my reasons why Tight end in the first would be a waste. I dont see the practicality in it when we have far more pressing needs. Those needs are at more important positions with less depth.

Your infatuated with a player. It happens to everyone every draft.
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Old 04-03-2012   #26
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
Kubiaks not going to say this but his actions speak for themselves.
  • Owen Daniels, 4th rd. 2006
  • Anthony Hill, 4th rd. 2009
  • James Casey, 5th rd. 2009
  • Garrett Graham, 4th rd. 2010
  • Dorian Dickerson, 7th rd. 2010
  • Joel Dreessen, 6th rd. (Jets) 2005 acquired by Texans 2006 as a FA

This notion Texans cannot replace Joel a good teammate & person, well, is laughable
I never said that the Texans can't replace Joel.

Dorin Dickerson was drafted as a WR.


That out of the way, OD was the first TE Kubiak drafted. He worked out, so there really hasn't been a need to draft a guy high. Dreesen came a long and played well and the need to draft a TE high lessened even more.

Kubiak has been on the job for less than a decade. I don't think you can say that he's against drafting TE's high based on the other needs we've had/OD and Dreesen being pretty good...

We've never taken a WR in the first round either...We've never taken a guard in the first round...We'd never taken a RB anywhere close to the 2nd round...We'd never taken an O-lineman anywhere near the first round until we took Duane...

We've never spent a high draft pick on a QB in the draft...

Kubiak had never hired a proven d-coordinator like Wade...

What does all that mean?

Nothing.

There is a first time for everything.

My point is that if a player is more talented than everyone on the board and/or you feel you can utilize that player to be a supreme differnce maker in your system then you have to consider drafting them.
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Old 04-03-2012   #27
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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If you dont want an opinion dont post a mock draft. I expressed my reasons why Tight end in the first would be a waste. I dont see the practicality in it when we have far more pressing needs. Those needs are at more important positions with less depth.

Your infatuated with a player. It happens to everyone every draft.
He could wind up being the next Jimmy Graham. That doesn't intrigue you at all? Him and OD on the field together would be scary. We do have more pressing needs but TE could use a boost and why limit the first round pick to a dire need anyway, all you do is wind up with an inferior player who starts early. Picking at 26 in the draft with a talented team already in place gives us the opportunity to really go BPA. I won't cry if we pass on him but Fleener is definitely on my short list.
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Old 04-03-2012   #28
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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Originally Posted by powda View Post
I expressed my reasons why Tight end in the first would be a waste. I dont see the practicality in it when we have far more pressing needs. Those needs are at more important positions with less depth.

Your infatuated with a player. It happens to everyone every draft.
If we can find a TE that can split out and/or play in the slot it's just as good as getting a WR in the first round. Maybe even better.

It's not like he'd struggle to get on the field.
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Old 04-03-2012   #29
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Default Re: Mussops mock

1. Fleener, although I think Fleener will be an excellent player in the NFL and I agree with the notion of taking a player 1 yr. ahead of when they're needed so they can learn before they replace the expensive FA, I just don't think TE is our biggest need or the position that should be chosen at this time. Also taking Fleener in the 1st is the same as saying we screwed up picking Graham 2 yrs. ago. I hate to admit this, God forgive me, but I'm actually warming up to the idea of Fleener in the 1st round as long as he makes OD expendable this year not next.
2. Schwartz, I'd prefer Bobby Massie in the 2nd round but he'll probably be gone by our late 2nd round pick and I think Schwartz is a good 2nd choice. Good pick.
3. Martin, I have reservations about Martin, not sure why just a feeling. I'd swap Martin and Childs and these picks would make more sense.
4a. Childs, I like Childs but think he goes in the 3rd, swap Martin and Childs picks and they make more sense.
4b. Wolfe, I really like the player, a poor mans JJ Watt, but don't think he'll be available this late probably goes in the 3rd.
5. Cole, again I really like the player and think he'd be excellent on the Texans roster but I think he goes earlier, probably in the late 3rd or early 4th.
6. Rodriguez, I don't know anything about the player but I think we can fill FB with an UDFA.
7. Sweezy, I really like the player but I see him as a 3-4 DE for us and the Martin pick frees up Mitchell to move to DE along with the Wolfe pick and now Sweezy, that's to many 3-4 DE's in one draft. I also think Sweezy goes earlier, probably in the 5th or 6th.

If our draft were to fall like this, I'd be very happy. I just think you have to many players going at least 1 round late and to many DE's.

The more I look at the 2012 draft the more I think we need to do everything possible to get as many 2nd round picks as we can, that's where the value in this draft is.
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Old 04-03-2012   #30
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Default Re: Mussops mock

Can't believe i'm doing this................


YOU SAID

Quote:
Originally Posted by powda View Post
I'd be on a rampage if we drafted a TE in the first round. Hate that pick.
THEN I SAID

That would be short sighted for reasons I stated above.


THEN YOU SAID

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Originally Posted by powda View Post
According to mussop we're shortsighted if we dont believe the Texans have to use a first round pick to replace him.
I DID NOT SAY

It would be short sighted not to draft a TE in the first round.


The reasons I stated above were. It plays into Schaubs strengths, OD is a likely cap casualty next year, He has an injury history, we run a lot of 2 TE sets, Dreeson TE #2 led the team last year in TD receptions and the only backup currently on the roster has had one catch the last two years. Those are legitamate reasons why it should not be a reason to freak out if we were to draft a TE in the first round. Specifically Fleener who as I stated is as close as you can get to a can't miss prospect IMO.


Like it or not thats your prerogative. I don't have a problem with your opinion. If you don't agree with a TE in the first more power to you! I just think it's short sighted to get UPSET if we were to draft one in the first round.

How ever having said all that, I also said

The panicky WR responses that are rampant around here is why I did this mock. Just wanted to hit it from another angle than gotta have a WR and an OLB with the first two picks approach that you see here so much.

I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks we are locked into any one position as our first round pick. It's flat out silly!!!!


NOW WE ARE HERE!


Quote:
Originally Posted by powda View Post
If you dont want an opinion dont post a mock draft. I expressed my reasons why Tight end in the first would be a waste. I dont see the practicality in it when we have far more pressing needs. Those needs are at more important positions with less depth.

Your infatuated with a player. It happens to everyone every draft.

I think the problem here is not that I am infatuated with a player but that you're infatuated with drafting a WR.


YOUR REASONING

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Originally Posted by powda View Post
I dont doubt for a second we will draft a TE ,but to suggest its a priority need with all the other holes on this roster is short sighted. We have plenty of people whom can attack the defense horizontially on short crossing routes etc. What we dont have is anyone other then AJ who threatens deep (be it by speed or after the catch ability.)

I stand by my statement. If we draft a TE in the first i'll go ballistic.
I'm sorry but explain this to me again???? Are you saying we shouldn't draft a TE in the first because we have to draft a WR thats a deep threat? I'm sorry but if that is your reasoning then there is no reason to continue this conversaition.
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Old 04-03-2012   #31
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
Can't believe i'm doing this................


YOU SAID



THEN I SAID

That would be short sighted for reasons I stated above.


THEN YOU SAID



I DID NOT SAY

It would be short sighted not to draft a TE in the first round.


The reasons I stated above were. It plays into Schaubs strengths, OD is a likely cap casualty next year, He has an injury history, we run a lot of 2 TE sets, Dreeson TE #2 led the team last year in TD receptions and the only backup currently on the roster has had one catch the last two years. Those are legitamate reasons why it should not be a reason to freak out if we were to draft a TE in the first round. Specifically Fleener who as I stated is as close as you can get to a can't miss prospect IMO.


Like it or not thats your prerogative. I don't have a problem with your opinion. If you don't agree with a TE in the first more power to you! I just think it's short sighted to get UPSET if we were to draft one in the first round.

How ever having said all that, I also said

The panicky WR responses that are rampant around here is why I did this mock. Just wanted to hit it from another angle than gotta have a WR and an OLB with the first two picks approach that you see here so much.

I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks we are locked into any one position as our first round pick. It's flat out silly!!!!


NOW WE ARE HERE!





I think the problem here is not that I am infatuated with a player but that you're infatuated with drafting a WR.


YOUR REASONING



I'm sorry but explain this to me again???? Are you saying we shouldn't draft a TE in the first because we have to draft a WR thats a deep threat? I'm sorry but if that is your reasoning then there is no reason to continue this conversaition.

I don't think we'll draft a TE in the first round, but your reasoning is solid. If we did draft a TE in the first round though I would not be upset because that would mean they expect him to be a playmaker from day 1.
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Old 04-03-2012   #32
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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Originally Posted by Wolf6151 View Post
1. Fleener, although I think Fleener will be an excellent player in the NFL and I agree with the notion of taking a player 1 yr. ahead of when they're needed so they can learn before they replace the expensive FA, I just don't think TE is our biggest need or the position that should be chosen at this time. Also taking Fleener in the 1st is the same as saying we screwed up picking Graham 2 yrs. ago. I hate to admit this, God forgive me, but I'm actually warming up to the idea of Fleener in the 1st round as long as he makes OD expendable this year not next.

Graham was a fourth round pick. It happens! The guy hardly seen the field in two years. One catch! TE may not be our biggest need but it is a need. You can't go into the draft saying position a is our biggest need so we have to spend our first round pick on it. You have to take the combination BPA that fills a need and generally you want your first two picks to start. You want your 3rd round pick to start year two and your expectations should lessen by round after that.

Again I'M NOT SAYING WE SHOULD DRAFT FLEENER!!!!! Just saying TE is a need and if he is the best player available then there is nothing wrong with it.


2. Schwartz, I'd prefer Bobby Massie in the 2nd round but he'll probably be gone by our late 2nd round pick and I think Schwartz is a good 2nd choice. Good pick.

I was about to start watching some Massie tape. Haven't had the chance yet. I love what I have seen from Schwartz. I think he could come in and start inside for us pretty quick.


3. Martin, I have reservations about Martin, not sure why just a feeling. I'd swap Martin and Childs and these picks would make more sense.
4a. Childs, I like Childs but think he goes in the 3rd, swap Martin and Childs picks and they make more sense.

I considered this too.

4b. Wolfe, I really like the player, a poor mans JJ Watt, but don't think he'll be available this late probably goes in the 3rd.

very possible!

5. Cole, again I really like the player and think he'd be excellent on the Texans roster but I think he goes earlier, probably in the late 3rd or early 4th.

I like Cole too but just don't see him going before the 5th round for some reason.

6. Rodriguez, I don't know anything about the player but I think we can fill FB with an UDFA.

Read up on him and try and watch some highlights or film of him if you have it. I think you will be surprised how much like Casey his game is. Just not the athlete!


7. Sweezy, I really like the player but I see him as a 3-4 DE for us and the Martin pick frees up Mitchell to move to DE along with the Wolfe pick and now Sweezy, that's to many 3-4 DE's in one draft. I also think Sweezy goes earlier, probably in the 5th or 6th.

Remember Smith is 30 and has a big contract. I would like to see us have a rotation of front 3 guys that would allow Watt and Smith to stay fresh for the Superbowl run. It has worked for the Giants.

If our draft were to fall like this, I'd be very happy. I just think you have to many players going at least 1 round late and to many DE's.



The more I look at the 2012 draft the more I think we need to do everything possible to get as many 2nd round picks as we can, that's where the value in this draft is.
I agree with this 100 percent. As long as my top four favorites are gone.


David DeCastro OG Stanford Jr 6-5 316 1
Michael Floyd WR Notre Dame Sr 6-3 220 1
Coby Fleener TE Stanford Sr 6-6 247 1
Jerel Worthy DE/DT Michigan St Jr 6-2 308 1

I would consider staying for any of these guys but could be talked out it for the right price.

Dont'a Hightower ILB Alabama Jr 6-2 265 1
Kendall Wright WR Baylor Sr 5-10 196 1
Kevin Zeitler OG Wisconsin Sr 6-4 314 2
Shea McClellin OLB Boise State Sr 6-3 260 2
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Old 04-03-2012   #33
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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I don't think we'll draft a TE in the first round, but your reasoning is solid. If we did draft a TE in the first round though I would not be upset because that would mean they expect him to be a playmaker from day 1.
And it fills a need. I'm just so tired of hearing on ESPN, NFL network, every sports talk radio show and in most every conversation I hear about our draft that WR is no doubt going to be taken with our first round pick.

I'm not against drafting a WR with our first but its not the only need and it would be STUPID to reach for one if a better prospect were available.
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Old 04-03-2012   #34
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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Originally Posted by Wolf6151 View Post
1. Fleener, although I think Fleener will be an excellent player in the NFL and I agree with the notion of taking a player 1 yr. ahead of when they're needed so they can learn before they replace the expensive FA, I just don't think TE is our biggest need or the position that should be chosen at this time. Also taking Fleener in the 1st is the same as saying we screwed up picking Graham 2 yrs. ago. I hate to admit this, God forgive me, but I'm actually warming up to the idea of Fleener in the 1st round as long as he makes OD expendable this year not next.
A big time playmaker at the TE position is just as valuable (maybe even more at times) than a WR.

Re: Grahm....

He is likely the third TE at best. If we don't draft a TE I think Casey would probably get the second TE reps.
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Old 04-03-2012   #35
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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A big time playmaker at the TE position is just as valuable (maybe even more at times) than a WR.

Re: Grahm....

He is likely the third TE at best. If we don't draft a TE I think Casey would probably get the second TE reps.
Especially when your QB doesn't have a rocket arm and isn't a good deep ball thrower. Just because we don't draft a WR in the first round doesn't mean we won't get one thats just as good a prospect later. Anyone that has been paying attention to this draft class knows their is two top tier guys, one border line top tier guy, one super potential type and about 15 others that are bunched together so close that no one is sure where any of them will go.
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Old 04-04-2012   #36
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Default Re: Mussops mock

Has anyone given any thought to Ladarius Green-TE? He's got great height, good speed, long arms and big hands. He might be a little light weight but adding a few pounds when your 6'06" shouldn't be hard to do. We could probably get him in the 3rd or early 4th round.
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Old 04-04-2012   #37
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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Originally Posted by Wolf6151 View Post
Has anyone given any thought to Ladarius Green-TE? He's got great height, good speed, long arms and big hands. He might be a little light weight but adding a few pounds when your 6'06" shouldn't be hard to do. We could probably get him in the 3rd or early 4th round.
from all reports his not a good blocker.

for WR and TE i think one of the main priorities is if the lad can block.
We are a run first team and must always look to solidify this.

If the coaching staff believe he can be taught to block well then by all means go after him because his got a lot of up side
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Old 04-04-2012   #38
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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Originally Posted by aussie_texan View Post
from all reports his not a good blocker.

for WR and TE i think one of the main priorities is if the lad can block.
We are a run first team and must always look to solidify this.

If the coaching staff believe he can be taught to block well then by all means go after him because his got a lot of up side
I read the same thing, he lacked the strength and size to be a good blocker. I'm not to worried about something like that though. Once these guys get on an NFL level strength and conditioning program he'll add strength and bulk for blocking. Also with a 6'06 frame the addition of a little extra weight shouldn't slow him any.
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Old 04-04-2012   #39
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Default Re: Mussops mock

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Originally Posted by Wolf6151 View Post
I read the same thing, he lacked the strength and size to be a good blocker. I'm not to worried about something like that though. Once these guys get on an NFL level strength and conditioning program he'll add strength and bulk for blocking. Also with a 6'06 frame the addition of a little extra weight shouldn't slow him any.
i think the main this is if is a "willing" blocker. that can't be taught
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Old 04-04-2012   #40
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Default Re: Mussops mock

A weapon on offense is valuable whether it be a WR or TE. The Patriots have shown the value of having multiple quality TEs on the roster. Their number 1 WR is Welker who is basically a really good slot receiver. OD is terrific, but let's be honest, he hasn't been the picture of health. The Denver/Houston offense has always relied on quality TE play. I think Fleener would be terrific and wouldn't be upset at all if we took him. I'd much rather grab him then reach for a WR if the top guys are gone. If you look at on the field production, Fleener is more of a sure thing at the point then Hill.
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