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Old 03-28-2012   #21
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Originally Posted by BigBull17 View Post
The idea of any linemen being the "most important" is a phallacy. Left tackles are important, but if you have the best LT in the world and the rest is substandard you are gonna be in for a hurting. That's why our line works so well, as it was 5 guys that were good with no weak link.
We're talking specifically about the run game.

And I still believe guards and centers play a more important role. Their jobs are never easy. As a tackle there are certain things you can do to make your job a hell of a lot easier.

Conversely the tackles normally have the tougher job in pass protection.

I never said one position is more important overall.
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Old 03-29-2012   #22
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I don't think you can say either is more important in this scheme.. but if you are to argue importance, you need to throw the guards in with the center and the TEs in with the tackles and make it the whole interior line vs. tackles and TEs... The FB is always floating around somewhere... He could block in or could go to the corner (most of the time inside)..

On a lot of the Texans running plays, the guards and center may give you a good push, but if the tackle and/or TE clear out the backside well enough, your RB can be in the secondary...

So on 2nd and 10 the center and guards themselves may give you 3-4 yards, but if the backside was cleared you're at 1st and 10 instead of 3rd and long... But does a good clear by the tackle/TE matter if the LG, C and RG don't get a decent push?

One is no more important than the other...
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Old 03-29-2012   #23
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Default Re: Zone blocking is guard>tackle?

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I don't think you can say either is more important in this scheme.. but if you are to argue importance, you need to throw the guards in with the center and the TEs in with the tackles and make it the whole interior line vs. tackles and TEs... The FB is always floating around somewhere... He could block in or could go to the corner (most of the time inside)..

On a lot of the Texans running plays, the guards and center may give you a good push, but if the tackle and/or TE clear out the backside well enough, your RB can be in the secondary...

So on 2nd and 10 the center and guards themselves may give you 3-4 yards, but if the backside was cleared you're at 1st and 10 instead of 3rd and long... But does a good clear by the tackle/TE matter if the LG, C and RG don't get a decent push?

One is no more important than the other...
yeah, with 22 guys on the field everyone has a role and its like a chain. Weak links tend to ruin the entire chain no matter how strong your 'strongest' link is.

Goes without saying that if you want short yardage/goal line success you would really like to have superior guys Guard to Guard...If you want to run outside on the edge you need Tackles that can get leverage and block in space (something not that easy to do for tall lanky men vs shorter more compact guys) to destroy 5 techniques setting the edge.

I think in College you can hide guys with elite backs or skill players, but in the pros you can minimize weak players but you just can't hide them for they will be game planned and exposed.
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Old 03-29-2012   #24
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Default Re: Zone blocking is guard>tackle?

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yeah, with 22 guys on the field everyone has a role and its like a chain. Weak links tend to ruin the entire chain no matter how strong your 'strongest' link is.

Goes without saying that if you want short yardage/goal line success you would really like to have superior guys Guard to Guard...If you want to run outside on the edge you need Tackles that can get leverage and block in space (something not that easy to do for tall lanky men vs shorter more compact guys) to destroy 5 techniques setting the edge.

I think in College you can hide guys with elite backs or skill players, but in the pros you can minimize weak players but you just can't hide them for they will be game planned and exposed.
This also speaks to the way guys who get thrown in to the starting line-up tend to have early success. They aren't gameplanned against, but you know their weaknesses and will gameplan to mask them.

Thats true of all positions though, the cliche your only as strong as your weakest link isn't quite true, as you can game plan around them, but you will be limited by having a weak link.

This is why I don't think its essential to get day 1 starters on OL in this draft, but I do think its essential to get guys who are going to battle and push Caldwell and Butler.
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Old 03-29-2012   #25
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Default Re: Zone blocking is guard>tackle?

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Originally Posted by drunkcookie View Post
I don't think you can say either is more important in this scheme.. but if you are to argue importance, you need to throw the guards in with the center and the TEs in with the tackles and make it the whole interior line vs. tackles and TEs... The FB is always floating around somewhere... He could block in or could go to the corner (most of the time inside)..

On a lot of the Texans running plays, the guards and center may give you a good push, but if the tackle and/or TE clear out the backside well enough, your RB can be in the secondary...

So on 2nd and 10 the center and guards themselves may give you 3-4 yards, but if the backside was cleared you're at 1st and 10 instead of 3rd and long... But does a good clear by the tackle/TE matter if the LG, C and RG don't get a decent push?

One is no more important than the other...
Not to mention their "assignment" is based on the defensive alignment more than any "preconceived" notion of who is doing what. The TEs job may be to hold up a DE, waiting for help from the guard as the Tackle pulls around the end.

Or the Guard & the Tackle may double team a DT on the play side, then depending on how the DT plays, the Tackle may be the one to sneak up into the second level, or the Guard may get free.

In a Zone blocking system, no one has a "set" job. It depends on what they see before the snap, then changes still, depending on what happens after the snap. Which is why it is so important for the RB to be able to read what is happening & decide on the best course of action.
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Old 03-29-2012   #26
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In a Zone blocking system, no one has a "set" job. It depends on what they see before the snap, then changes still, depending on what happens after the snap.
I agree with that for the most part. Still doesnt change the fact that guards have more responsibility/reads in the run game. Alignment doesn't affect tackles as much as guards.

Tackles are normally reading only two players in a given run play. A down lineman and a lb. Guards are generally reading/have to react to two down linemen and a lb.

A 34 would be more difficult for the tackles and center though. Tackles would then have the extra defender to account for.

Of course that changes from play to play, but for the most part guards have the more difficult jobs when it comes to running the ball while tackles generally draw the harder assignments against the pass.

And the blocking is actually pretty set in a zone blocking scheme. The major thing though, is that you don't chase. You let your steps set up your block. If a downlinenan stunts you don't chase him because another defender is likely going to take their place.

But I'd say more often than not the oline knows who they will block unless a defense does something they've never seen before. Its more predictable than lining up and reading on the go.
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Old 03-29-2012   #27
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yeah, with 22 guys on the field everyone has a role and its like a chain. Weak links tend to ruin the entire chain no matter how strong your 'strongest' link is.
That sounds nice and it's definitely something you want all 22 to buy into, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

On quite a few plays, all 22 guys will not have equal importance in the success of a play.

I'm not saying that a wr outside the numbers on the backside of a toss doesn't or can't have an impact on a play. I'm just saying that in that particular instance his job isn't as important as the rb or the linemen that pull out ahead of him to block on the playside.
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Old 03-30-2012   #28
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Default Re: Zone blocking is guard>tackle?

that's really not what I'm saying...not implying everyone has equal importance on a given play. Weakness just gets exploited in this league.
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Old 03-30-2012   #29
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Default Re: Zone blocking is guard>tackle?

Kinda like asking if a WR is more important than a RB. Both have their role to play and any weakness will be exposed. You have to have balance and performance from all or fail.
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Old 03-30-2012   #30
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Default Re: Zone blocking is guard>tackle?

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Old 03-30-2012   #31
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Default Re: Zone blocking is guard>tackle?

All I am going to point out is when Wade Smith got added to OL it took off as a unit. Myers is no longer getting pushed back into the qb like prior and Brisiel looked much better.

Not saying Wade is an all pro or anything, but prior to him coming here we had really deficient guard play in general. I think guard play has to be a bigger emphasis here considering we have an undersized C in Myers.

I hold out hope that either Shelly Smith, who seemed much more physical at Co State, steps up or that we look for a replacement for Caldwell via FA.
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Old 03-30-2012   #32
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Default Re: Zone blocking is guard>tackle?

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All I am going to point out is when Wade Smith got added to OL it took off as a unit. Myers is no longer getting pushed back into the qb like prior and Brisiel looked much better.

Not saying Wade is an all pro or anything, but prior to him coming here we had really deficient guard play in general. I think guard play has to be a bigger emphasis here considering we have an undersized C in Myers.

I hold out hope that either Shelly Smith, who seemed much more physical at Co State, steps up or that we look for a replacement for Caldwell via FA.
Our system took off when we had Arian Foster as the RB1. So which one is it? Also, Caldwell is going to get his chance as a starter and we probably are not looking for his replacement in FA, probably a back-up player.
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Old 03-30-2012   #33
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Default Re: Zone blocking is guard>tackle?

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Our system took off when we had Arian Foster as the RB1. So which one is it? Also, Caldwell is going to get his chance as a starter and we probably are not looking for his replacement in FA, probably a back-up player.
Well, the fact that Myers isn't getting Kris Jenkins'd once a game tells me quite a bit. The line since getting Smith has consistently gotten a much better push and tends to win the LOS battle more often than prior.

Also when Tate or Ward has stepped in the game, the drop off has not been terrible like in the past.

I think Caldwell will get his chance, but I am hoping for a short leash or that they will either bring someone else in to push him or that Smith steps up his game knowing he's got a chance to start. I'd also keep in mind Caldwell was drafted originally as an All-American C, not a G. We've been fortunate that Myers has grown into a top tier C.

Love Foster, I think he's probably the most complete back i nthe league right now and deserved to get paid like it. It really was key to keep him. Though, I think both the RBs and OL have really benefited from each other the past few yeas.
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