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Old 03-04-2012   #121
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

OK, I will try one more game, if I can only finish it, because it's a little bit long.

I will try to counter the blogger SpredAloha, each of our take is obviously our own narrative. You can add them to your own or disregard both to form an opinion.

http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/2/...9/stephen-hill

Week 4 vs. NC

To defend Ga Tech triple option, UNC sometimes brought the CB up to line, leaving the safety to defend any deep route from the receiver.
If the safety also bought the run, the receiver would run right past him.

1st Qtr

Example One: 0:07 Seconds (based on the blogger's video)

(3rd and 15) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 12 yards to the NC23 (Brown, C).

I'm going to go long with this one, even though it doesn't matter all that much at the end of the day.
I just want to say that I try to study both the offense and the defense; how they go at it on the particular play (if I was to study the QB, it would take even longer.)

The defense showed a cover 2 shell (2 deep safeties); however, with the LCB playing some 9 yards off the LOS, the D could end up playing 1/4 on play side.

The offense ran a cover-2 beater (that is also effective vs. cover 3 or cover 4).
Ga Tech flooded the outside zone with a Hi-Lo concept at work where the wide-out ran a deep route on an outside release requiring the LCB to sink deep or the safety coming over the top.

Tech then inserted Hill (from the slot) underneath near the side line with either an out route or a curl of some sort.

The mot inside receiver (lining up in the TE Y posiion) ran a crossing route to further distract the play side safety.

As all 3 LBs looked to play the run first (even on third and very long), when the 3 players on play side released, none of them followed , denoting some form of a zone coverage.

When a receiver saw zone coverage, they are (supposedly) taught to find the open space in the zone.


The first problem here was the wde-out who lined up on the line (2 yards ahead of Hill). He didn't burst off the line hard enough; notice that he was barely deeper than Hill 5 yards past the LOS and even seems to slow down as Hill made the cut.

He failed to induce the LCB to declare his coverage earlier (whether he would turn and run with the wide out in quarter coverage) or reacted back toward the flat/curl (if they were in cover 2, 5-under).


Secondly, the QB didn't do a great job either.
He could try to sell the underneath out-route to force the LCB to come back so that he (the QB) can fire the ball over the top to the wide-out, or he could get the ball to Hill sooner so his receiver can make a move in an attempt to beat the LCB in space for a first down.

As it was, the ball was late; Hill had to wait and wait for it to get there.
He reached out with both hands extending to catch the ball (good).
But since the ball was late, the CB had time to come back and made a good ankle tackle, preventing much YAC (about 2-3).


What might have happened if Hill had run hard 10 yards and made a sharp cut as the square out route requires?
Nothing differently, I don't think.

Due to the same execution by the wide-out and the QB, the CB would arrive to make the play just the same.

Rounding off the route a couple of yards early allowed Hill to get the open space in the zone early.
If the QB had gotten the ball to him right away, he would have a much better opportunity to make his move before the CB reacted and before the MLB had the chance to drop back into coverage.

I'm not sure whether Hill was required to run the route precisely at 10 yd or he was taught to adjust to coverage the way he did.
All I know is that by going with the latter, he had a chance to gain the first down (if the QB had delivered the ball a little sooner.)

Squaring up the route helps to push the safety back, but since the safety never attempted to play up close, it served no real purpose; the way I see it.
It made no difference to the CB who was the one who made the tackle.


For all we know, Hill might have been running a speed out and not a deep-out.

I've seen a triple-option playbook from Ga. Southern that calls for a speed-out up to 6 yards past the LOS (speed-out doesn't require a square cut.)

With Hill lining up 2 yards behind the LOS and being a tall receiver with long strides, his 5 steps took him to 7 yards, which is not much of a stretch.

The reason it looks like he was "shuffling" was because he wanted to settle in the zone; running further toward the side line would only bring him closer to the LCB.

I disagree with the blogger on the principle "if it's man coverage, you continue with the route, if it's zone, you find a place to sit in the soft spot".
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Old 03-04-2012   #122
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

Example Two: 0:15

(3rd and 5) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 13 yards to the NC20, 1ST DOWN GT (Boston, T).

This was the one-handed grab that Lucky showed in one of those vids earlier in the thread.
Replays from different angles showed a fantastic catch (Megatron and AJ Green-type).

Hill ran a wheel route from the left slot, and caught the ball in a fade out position along the side line.

The left wide-out ran a skinny post to sink the RCB deep in cover 3.

Hill stretched his frame to the utmost to reel the ball in, absorbed the hit and kept both feet inbound.

This is the type of catch that shows his potential as an NFL-caliber receiver.
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Old 03-04-2012   #123
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

The blogger left out this TD catch.

2nd Qtr

http://espn.go.com/ncf/video?gameId=312670059

(1st and 10) GEORGIA TECH drive start at 08:05.

(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 59 yards to the NC0, 1ST DOWN GT, TOUCHDOWN, clock 07:57.

As I've mentioned, to defend Ga Tech triple option, teams sometimes brought the CB up to line, leaving the safety to defend any deep route from the receiver.
If the safety also bought the run, the receiver would run right past him.
This is the case where UNC brought the CB up to the line.

Hill was wide open on a simple go route along the side line.
The pass was behind where Hill had to slow down and turned his body back 90 degree (such that his shoulders were parallel to the side line) to catch the ball with both hands at chest level and pulled it in.

This one went for a TD, but he will drop a similar ball in the 4th qtr.

This was only a 29-yd pass and the QB was already short with the throw, just to make a note.
Wide-open receiver, no pressure.
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Old 03-04-2012   #124
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

Example Three: 1:02

(1st and 10) Timeout Georgia Tech, clock 01:38.
(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 34 yards to the NC5, 1ST DOWN GT, out-of-bounds (Boston, T).


Hill lined up on the left, just inside the number.

He had enough room to run this fade route without having to stem inside, but he did anyway within his first 5 steps.
He pushed the RCB inside, giving him plenty of room along the side line on this deep fade route.

Hill also did a very good job fighting off the hold off the CB (they let 'em play on this one), turned around and caught the ball that was thrown to the outside (as a fade is supposed to be thrown, however slightly underthrown as the blogger mentioned).

Excellent effort by Hill on this one as it required concentration and ball skill (he didn't have time to catch the ball cleanly, but managed to pull it in.)

He never had the chance to adjust to the ball as the CB pulled him back by the jersey above the chest close to his left shoulder pad in an effort to make it difficult for him to turn around.

This is another NFL-caliber big time catch, the way I see it.
In the NFL, a PI would have been called.

The blogger criticized the catch here because he didn't see the hold by the CB (but he did note in example four that Hill didn't have time to extend his arms in this play, which is example 3.)
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Old 03-04-2012   #125
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

You can teach a player how to catch a ball better, if they are willing to learn...

You can't teach a player to be 6'4 and run a 4.3....

Put this kid under Andre Johnson, he will be a Pro Bowl player by his 5th season...

Book it....
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Old 03-05-2012   #126
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000...content_stream
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Old 03-05-2012   #127
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

Quote:
Originally Posted by BullNation4Life View Post
You can teach a player how to catch a ball better, if they are willing to learn...

You can't teach a player to be 6'4 and run a 4.3....

Put this kid under Andre Johnson, he will be a Pro Bowl player by his 5th season...

Book it....
Like Braylon Edwards or Corey Bradford or Jacoby Jones? I could go on for days naming guys who had everything but good hands & failed in the NFL b/c of that. So as you have probably garnered by now, i disagree completely. ..you either have good hands or you dont.

Catching isn't a skill that is honed easily like that...the level of skill needed to be a good hands WR in the NFL where db's are all over you takes alot longer than 5 years and whomever waits for that guy that long to develop into a pro bowl WR is either a moron or they've got GB depth a WR. If we select him, then you already know the answer to that question. Dude will be expected to produce in 2. He should be expected to produce in that time frame anyway if he goes in the 1st. But if this guy can't even handle catching in traffic amongst college cb's, whomever takes him is going to be in for a rude awakening when he gets to the pros.

You never hear of a guy who came into the league with marginal hands, they work hard on catching for a few years & they become a good to great WR let alone 1 who was selected in the 1st round like this guy is projected.

Stay away from this guy Rick PLEASE!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-05-2012   #128
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
That's not the case, as it will become a little more clear as I continue with the film study.

There are times that the D sent the CB in to defend the triple option and the safety bombed.

To say that DB doesn't pay attention to Hill is just nonsense.

How do you purposedly allow a receiver with deep speed to run past you.
Hell, if he drops 3 passes (which wasn't the case to begin with) and catches one, it would still be a long TD.

If the number of times that he gets open due to a mishap in a D that makes me all riled up about Hill, I would be a fool.

...

For some reason, it's hard for me to distinguish between badboy and beerlover at times, LOL - you guys are working so much in tune (martin is a bit different; probably because he diverts quite a bit of attention to small school prospects).

But at any rate, one of you mentioned that as scouts, one can find value in a case like this... where the QB is not all that good, and the system doesn't showcase the true talent of a receiver (even if it gives him wide-open chance at times).
We can say the same about the Stanford TE as many of his catches were also wide-open due to the scheme/mishap by the D.

I scratch out most of those plays.
But I do note how they run their route on those plays.
Like I said, if you don't pay attention to the details (their body's movement - whether they telegraph the play as a run rather than a pass; all sort of things) then you're more likely to miss out on a prospect (off-the-field problem is a different thing.)
I have often mentioned in PMs during college seasons to Beerlover how much we think alike and how we evaluate players. However, we often disagree. He is all over Hill while Rmartin65 & I are a bit more reluctant. We break down the same way on LSU's Randle btw.

ALso note that ny comment was I've read defenses often disregarded Hill. I have not seen that myself as I did not watch him. I do appreciate the work you put in on film work.
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Old 03-05-2012   #129
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
You never hear of a guy who came into the league with marginal hands, they work hard on catching for a few years & they become a good to great WR let alone 1 who was selected in the 1st round like this guy is projected.
I'm not comparing Hill (or anyone else) to Andre Johnson. But AJ came into the league as a body catcher with questionable hands. He got better every year. All I'm saying is, never say "never" (whoops, I broke my own rule).
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Old 03-05-2012   #130
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

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I'm not comparing Hill (or anyone else) to Andre Johnson. But AJ came into the league as a body catcher with questionable hands. He got better every year. All I'm saying is, never say "never" (whoops, I broke my own rule).
That was just a case where scouts were trying to find something.....anything to knock him on..that's pretty much how the scouting process spins out of control at times. here's a few #1 overall picks "knocks"..some real, some imagined.

in 98' the knock on Peyton coming out was that "he couldn't win the big one" & that he'd peaked.
in 01' the knock on Vick was that he wasn't a polished enough passer; runs too much..
in 06' the "knock" on Mario was his motor...

you get my drift. The point i'm trying to make is that I don't think anyone gave serious credence to what you're saying regarding AJ. That was just a case where some dumb ass scout was overthinking during the scouting process..After that NC game he had, i think overall people knew what they were getting when AJ entered the draft...a beast...Stephen Hill.....................not so much & people weren't even thinking about this kid until he showed up in Indy.
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Old 03-05-2012   #131
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
I have often mentioned in PMs during college seasons to Beerlover how much we think alike and how we evaluate players. However, we often disagree. He is all over Hill while Rmartin65 & I are a bit more reluctant. We break down the same way on LSU's Randle btw.

ALso note that ny comment was I've read defenses often disregarded Hill. I have not seen that myself as I did not watch him. I do appreciate the work you put in on film work.
Hill is a long, athletic, thoroughbred WR with good sized soft hands who left GT with 25.47 yards per reception, which would have easily broken the school record, but fell one reception short of qualifying for the record book (minimum 50 receptions) all that following in the footsteps of Calvin Johnson & Demaryius Thomas. Unlike those other two big receivers his specialty is his long speed. But Hill is much more than than just a deep threat, he can block, run route tree & is a team player, not a diva, very rare quality. In this offense paired with Andre Johnson he should continue to haul in big receptions, maybe not that many, but enough to probably led the league in yards per reception. Hard to define a value on that but think the results might just justify the risk.
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Old 03-05-2012   #132
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

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Got him

I really appreciate all of the info 76 provides. It must be alot of time/work.
Thanks, back at ya.
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Old 03-06-2012   #133
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
That was just a case where scouts were trying to find something.....anything to knock him on..that's pretty much how the scouting process spins out of control at times. here's a few #1 overall picks "knocks"..some real, some imagined.

in 98' the knock on Peyton coming out was that "he couldn't win the big one" & that he'd peaked.
in 01' the knock on Vick was that he wasn't a polished enough passer; runs too much..
in 06' the "knock" on Mario was his motor...

you get my drift. The point i'm trying to make is that I don't think anyone gave serious credence to what you're saying regarding AJ. That was just a case where some dumb ass scout was overthinking during the scouting process..After that NC game he had, i think overall people knew what they were getting when AJ entered the draft...a beast...Stephen Hill.....................not so much & people weren't even thinking about this kid until he showed up in Indy.
Amateur draftniks like us don't have time to follow every team in the country.
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Old 03-06-2012   #134
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
Hill is a long, athletic, thoroughbred WR with good sized soft hands who left GT with 25.47 yards per reception, which would have easily broken the school record, but fell one reception short of qualifying for the record book (minimum 50 receptions) all that following in the footsteps of Calvin Johnson & Demaryius Thomas. Unlike those other two big receivers his specialty is his long speed. But Hill is much more than than just a deep threat, he can block, run route tree & is a team player, not a diva, very rare quality. In this offense paired with Andre Johnson he should continue to haul in big receptions, maybe not that many, but enough to probably led the league in yards per reception. Hard to define a value on that but think the results might just justify the risk.
I find it's odd that Waldman (from the Q&A thread with TC in the main forum) thinks that Hill is seriously lacking at blocking. He even says that Ga Tech didn't run much toward Hill's side. Not what I saw.
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Old 03-06-2012   #135
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
Like Braylon Edwards or Corey Bradford or Jacoby Jones? I could go on for days naming guys who had everything but good hands & failed in the NFL b/c of that. So as you have probably garnered by now, i disagree completely. ..you either have good hands or you dont.

Catching isn't a skill that is honed easily like that...the level of skill needed to be a good hands WR in the NFL where db's are all over you takes alot longer than 5 years and whomever waits for that guy that long to develop into a pro bowl WR is either a moron or they've got GB depth a WR. If we select him, then you already know the answer to that question. Dude will be expected to produce in 2. He should be expected to produce in that time frame anyway if he goes in the 1st. But if this guy can't even handle catching in traffic amongst college cb's, whomever takes him is going to be in for a rude awakening when he gets to the pros.

You never hear of a guy who came into the league with marginal hands, they work hard on catching for a few years & they become a good to great WR let alone 1 who was selected in the 1st round like this guy is projected.

Stay away from this guy Rick PLEASE!!!!!!!!
1. Did you see marginal hands from Hill at the combine or in several plays last season?

2. Catching the ball in traffic is one thing; you can't expect a receiver who had to catch the ball with a defender coming straight at him to be able to hold on to the ball every time (due to a late throw by the QB; ie. Andrew Luck's style.)
And when did you notice that Hill didn't do a good job at catching the ball "in traffic"; can you bring up a few examples - there must be several to make you feel so uncomfortable about the guy.
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Old 03-06-2012   #136
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-falcons...a_falcons_blog

Mayock short video interview of Hill linked above -- get a bit of a sense of who he is.

Georgia Tech's Pro Day was today.

Last edited by Playoffs; 03-06-2012 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 03-06-2012   #137
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
1. Did you see marginal hands from Hill at the combine or in several plays last season?

2. Catching the ball in traffic is one thing; you can't expect a receiver who had to catch the ball with a defender coming straight at him to be able to hold on to the ball every time (due to a late throw by the QB; ie. Andrew Luck's style.)
And when did you notice that Hill didn't do a good job at catching the ball "in traffic"; can you bring up a few examples - there must be several to make you feel so uncomfortable about the guy.
Here's what i see with this guy:


1..if you call dropping passes when you're wiiiidddeee open then yes i did see marginal hands b/c I hardly saw any "hands" catches at all....not even on hitch routes. i saw nothing from a hands perspective that wowed me & made me think this guy is worthy of a 1st round pick. You can contrast this with almost every WR thought to be going in the 1st 2 rounds & it's not even close honestly. I could care less about the combine b/c you're not playing against anyone out there.

I admit, the catching in traffic thing was more of an educated guess by me considering that the bulk of his catches are made when he's running/sitting wide open. That will be a rarity in the NFL & he'll likely have guys draped all over him. That statement was made more with the thought of him not reacting favorably to this having been wide open all the damn time. When he was covered, more often than not, you hardly ever saw him displaying that obvious superior athleticism to win....if the ball wasn't out in front of him.

Other things i noticed: he doesn't appear to have good awareness with his feet on sideline throws. Even on plays where he got both feet in...he made it look more close than it probably should've been. He also doesn't appear to play as fast as his combine 40 time indicates imo. And all in all, there's just not enough production there to say that GT's offense & qb play was the main thing holding him back. Calvin Johnson played in the same offense if im correct & he was a monster for 2 years.

He reminds me a ton of Roy Williams out of UT. Dude was dubbed a "genetic phenomenon" by scouts & homers alike....got in the pros & well, you know the rest.
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Old 03-06-2012   #138
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

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More Mayock on #GeorgiaTech WR Stephen Hill: "I don't think this kid gets out of the 1st round. I think he's a late 1, worst case early 2."

More Mayock on Stephen Hill: "His hands are great. Hands snatcher, catches ball very easily. Drops were about lack of discipline, maturity."

Mayock on Stephen Hill's Pro Day: "Trust me folks, he helped himself. ... For 6'4/215, he's got great feet. Great job in & out of breaks."
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Old 03-06-2012   #139
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

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Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
More Mayock on #GeorgiaTech WR Stephen Hill: "I don't think this kid gets out of the 1st round. I think he's a late 1, worst case early 2."

More Mayock on Stephen Hill: "His hands are great. Hands snatcher, catches ball very easily. Drops were about lack of discipline, maturity."

Mayock on Stephen Hill's Pro Day: "Trust me folks, he helped himself. ... For 6'4/215, he's got great feet. Great job in & out of breaks."
Mayock saw him pretty much the same as I do; I'm at week 8 right now, but there's still 5 more games to observe. The rating I had on Hill still stands.
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Old 03-06-2012   #140
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Default Re: Stephen Hill

More film study on Hill.

(Continuation of the UNC game).

3rd Qtr

(3rd and 5) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 25 yards to the GT49, 1ST DOWN GT (Merletti, M;Boston, T).

Hill lined up in the left slot (there was a wide-out on his outside) and ran a curl route.
Hill did a good job finding the soft spot in the 3-deep zone, turned to the inside, but reached back somewhat to catch the ball to the outside.

This was supposed to be a inside curl route, but Hill ended up catching the ball to the outside (hence adjustment) due to the fact that the sinking LB did a good job tipping the ball barely off his fingertips.
I couldn't tell for sure from the freeze frames whether the LB actually touched the ball, but at the least, he was very close to it.
And the trajectory of the ball seemed to be a little off line.

Instead of giving Hill credit for his concentration, the blogger "lamented" that Hill "body-caught" the ball. I think that's over-scrutinizing.
...

The next play was around the 6:10 mark in the third quarter;
it was in the blogger's video, but he didn't mention it.

(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass complete to Hill, S. for 8 yards to the GT39 (Smith, J;Lipford, D).

Hill lined up wide to the right and caught a simple swing pass.
He did a good job making 2 guys missed, but the third guy came (and one of the guys who missed also came back.)

This play showed Hill's hip flexibility as he made the cuts and turns.
That was a pretty wicked cut he put on the LCB there.
He made the last 5-6 yards on his own, dragging defenders with him.

That is as strong as I've seen from any receiver in this draft class.

Also, on the replay, notice the double move he put on at the beginning of the route. He induced the CB to open up his hip and take a couple of steps back. That was enough to hold off the CB away from the LOS for Hill to catch the ball (seperation.)

There were a couple "NFL" moves in that one short play.

.......

The next play wasn't in the video' it was similar to the previous play.
It shows that Hill knows how to make it easier for him to catch the swing pass.

(1st and 10) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Hill, S..

Hill lined up just inside the numbers on the left, on the opposite side from the above-mentioned swing pass.

He took a long faked step forward then retreated to wait for the swing pass.
Again, he induced the CB to open up his hip and moving backward.

The QB threw the ball forward past the LOS, way too far for Hill to catch the ball.
The CB reacted back very well even after the good move by Hill.
This one was on the QB.

Hill can run routes better than he's giving credit for.
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