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Old 02-29-2012   #21
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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Originally Posted by otisbean View Post
I've been a strength coach for over 16 years, I hate the 225 test. There's a story about a bodybuilder and powerlifter having a squat contest. The PL squatted over 900lbs while the BB put up 800 (for the record the PL was the first man to squat over 1,000 in competition so 900 wan't a max). Then they put on 625 to see who could perform the most reps, the PL hit 12-15 and the BB hit 25. If you just look at their 625 numbers you would think the BB was the stronger of the 2, but in reality the PL is WAAAY stronger. It's the same thing with the 225 test. The theory is the stronger guy will bench 225 more times, but you need to factor in limb length and the athlete's genetic make up (fast twitch vs slow twitch ect..). Truth is you can't serve two masters. You can be good at reps or you can be good at a max output, but not both, they're too dissimilar.

There are so many cool aspects of the combine, but there are a bunch of things that I would love to see changed - a fully electronically timed 40, a better upper body strength/power evaluation, more position specific drills ect..
I hear bigger guys say this but I think it's bunk. A 6'5'' 300 pound OL probably has longer arms than a 5'11'' 190 pound CB, right? But a 300 pound guy isn't pressing MORE than his own body weight, in fact it's much less % wise than what the CB is faced with: pressing MORE than his own weight. Any perceived disadvantage in arm length is hilarious when you've got bigger, stronger muscles to lift with. They ask 190 lb. guys to lift 225 but they don't ask 300 lb. guys to lift 350.
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Old 02-29-2012   #22
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

1. Kendall Wright, WR
2. Shea McClellin, OLB
3. Juron Criner, WR
4. Derek Wolfe, DE
5. Levy Adcock, OG/OT
6. Omar Bolden, CB/SS
6. Cliff Harris, CB/Returner


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Old 02-29-2012   #23
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
1. Kendall Wright, WR
2. Shea McClellin, OLB
3. Juron Criner, WR
4. Derek Wolfe, DE
5. Levy Adcock, OG/OT
6. Omar Bolden, CB/SS
6. Cliff Harris, CB/Returner


BL
I would love this draft, BL. I'm high on Bolden and I think we would have to take him in the 4th if we want him.

Do you think Wolfe would still be there in the 5th? Or Adcock in the 6th?
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Old 02-29-2012   #24
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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Originally Posted by otisbean View Post
I've been a strength coach for over 16 years, I hate the 225 test. There's a story about a bodybuilder and powerlifter having a squat contest. The PL squatted over 900lbs while the BB put up 800 (for the record the PL was the first man to squat over 1,000 in competition so 900 wan't a max). Then they put on 625 to see who could perform the most reps, the PL hit 12-15 and the BB hit 25. If you just look at their 625 numbers you would think the BB was the stronger of the 2, but in reality the PL is WAAAY stronger. It's the same thing with the 225 test. The theory is the stronger guy will bench 225 more times, but you need to factor in limb length and the athlete's genetic make up (fast twitch vs slow twitch ect..). Truth is you can't serve two masters. You can be good at reps or you can be good at a max output, but not both, they're too dissimilar.

There are so many cool aspects of the combine, but there are a bunch of things that I would love to see changed - a fully electronically timed 40, a better upper body strength/power evaluation, more position specific drills ect..
I'm a strength coach too (not nearly for 16 years though) and I agree with everything you said right there. And honestly, there aren't too many CSCS guys who will disagree. I can't think of one that I know off the top of my head actually.

The 225 test is pretty. It gives you a number to look at. Everybody loves to watch bench press. There is a very low risk of injury. But it has absolutely zip to do with testing strength or power.
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Old 02-29-2012   #25
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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I know a lot of people buy into that but I don't. Now, if we're talking about a guy that does significantly less reps than the other players at his position then I agree we have a problem. But moving guys down your board because they did 5 or so less reps than someone else? That's crazy.

Once you start getting to 15+ reps you are not even testing muscular strength anymore anyway, you are testing muscular endurance.

Football is a fast twitch sport, and benching for reps recruits your slow twitch muscle fibers. So I would say it has very little to do with anything, unless like I mentioned, if a guy is significantly behind his peers.
So, if a 300+ lbs player is lifting less than some players who weigh 50 lbs less, what does that tell you? Or, a better example, if he's lifting less than his peers, who should weigh similarly, what does that tell you about his endurance? Like I said, it's just another tool for the coaches to evaluate what kind of player they are looking at. Does he fit their system? Is 18 reps a red flag for them? Maybe, maybe not. It's not the be all end all test for a player. Just one of many.
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Old 02-29-2012   #26
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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Originally Posted by TimeKiller View Post
I hear bigger guys say this but I think it's bunk. A 6'5'' 300 pound OL probably has longer arms than a 5'11'' 190 pound CB, right? But a 300 pound guy isn't pressing MORE than his own body weight, in fact it's much less % wise than what the CB is faced with: pressing MORE than his own weight. Any perceived disadvantage in arm length is hilarious when you've got bigger, stronger muscles to lift with. They ask 190 lb. guys to lift 225 but they don't ask 300 lb. guys to lift 350.
I think NFL coaches are less concerned with the differences between CB and OL in terms of bench numbers LOL. Limb length is an issue. There's a reason when you look at half the guys lifting in your local gym you'll see them pressing or squatting impressive weight, but only performing half reps. Shorter ranges of motion are easier to do. The more stretch you put on a muscle the less force it can develop, long arms will put a tremendous stretch on the chest and shoulders making these muscle work harder to lift the same weight. On the field long arms are a clear bonus, but in terms or weight lifting long limbs are a hinderance.

If you compare 2 OL, and one has 32" arms and puts up 30 reps and another guy puts 25 reps with 37" arms you would assume the first guy was stronger, BUT if you measured the actual range of motion you would see the first guy is pushing through a shorter range of motion thus making the exercise easier. For example, if you measure the distance from chest to lockout on OL 1 you might find he only has to push the bar 14" whereas OL 2 might have to push 20" - thus making the exercise harder from him. I would bet considerable money that if you had OL 2 put a 6" block on his chest to equalize range of motion his number of reps would undoubtedly go up.

My main issue that you have these athletes training for muscular endurance before the combine and its a waste of time as force output is more important for an OL. Id love to see a test where they hook a force plate up to a blocking sled and have an OL fire out and pop the sled to measure their force output, now that would be interesting.

I also agree with you, having a CB or WR lift the same weight as a DL or OL is ridiculous as well.
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Old 02-29-2012   #27
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
I'm a strength coach too (not nearly for 16 years though) and I agree with everything you said right there. And honestly, there aren't too many CSCS guys who will disagree. I can't think of one that I know off the top of my head actually.

The 225 test is pretty. It gives you a number to look at. Everybody loves to watch bench press. There is a very low risk of injury. But it has absolutely zip to do with testing strength or power.
Yep. Im pretty sure NFL coaches take things like long arms into account when comparing athletes. It just seems to me there are better options available. Talking about testing strength and power, I seem to remember study stating that the VJ and Broad jump were the best predictor of on field success, and what do they test - power output.
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Old 02-29-2012   #28
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
1. Kendall Wright, WR
2. Shea McClellin, OLB
3. Juron Criner, WR
4. Derek Wolfe, DE
5. Levy Adcock, OG/OT
6. Omar Bolden, CB/SS
6. Cliff Harris, CB/Returner


BL
Very Solid! Do you like KW more than Floyd?
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Old 02-29-2012   #29
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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Very Solid! Do you like KW more than Floyd?
Floyd is competing hard to overtake Blackmon as the #1 WR in 2012 class. Wright is solidly planted #3
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Old 02-29-2012   #30
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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I hear bigger guys say this but I think it's bunk. A 6'5'' 300 pound OL probably has longer arms than a 5'11'' 190 pound CB, right? But a 300 pound guy isn't pressing MORE than his own body weight, in fact it's much less % wise than what the CB is faced with: pressing MORE than his own weight. Any perceived disadvantage in arm length is hilarious when you've got bigger, stronger muscles to lift with. They ask 190 lb. guys to lift 225 but they don't ask 300 lb. guys to lift 350.
Why are you comparing a small corner to a lineman?

Limb liength doesn't come into the equation like how you are describing it...

It comes into factor when you have two guys of similar body size...Like if you have two big guys, one with long arms and the other built with a more stocky build...

Guys with that bull dog build tend to be able to lift more because they are just more compressed and don't have to move the weight as far...
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Old 02-29-2012   #31
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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I would love this draft, BL. I'm high on Bolden and I think we would have to take him in the 4th if we want him.

Do you think Wolfe would still be there in the 5th? Or Adcock in the 6th?
This is supposed to be a dream mock?
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Old 02-29-2012   #32
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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This is supposed to be a dream mock?
Just wondering if you think those guys would still be around at those spots, BL.
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Old 02-29-2012   #33
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

Guess im not good enough for my own thread, i will post it here




Here is my first mock on this site


Round 1. Fletcher Cox. A good sized NT with a great burst and solid hands. He can attack the gaps and apply pressure up the gut and is stout enough to hold the POA. He fits the size bill Wade tends to lean on at the NT spot. He has great character and 0 red flags, which our staff likes. He would fit in well with our defense.

Round 2. Marvin Jones. I LOVE this kid. Comes from a pro style offense with similar routes and motions. He runs crisp routes and uses his body (though not the biggest guy) to shield the ball and catches almost everything. Great speed and great hands with ok size. IMO the best wide out from this class.....I just have an eye for this thing...

Round 3. Philip Blake. A solid interior line men, best as C. We need depth along the line and a guy who is versatile like Blake is most practical for our scheme. His great combine made him a late 3rd, great value here.

Round 4. Leonard Johnson. A good sized corner who is good at everything, but not spectacular. Will be another guy (similar to Harris from last season) who will come in and sit and gain skills to be a better pro. He could turn into a great number 2 or a great nickel corner. Smith is fascinated by mid round corners, so I doubt the trend stops.

Round 5. Greg Child, a good sized wr. Was a top prospect entering college, but never hit his stride, then tore his ACL. He performed great at the combine and is a risk/reward guy. Great explosion and good speed for his size. Well worth the risk in the 5th.

Round 6. Brandon Bolden. A good rb who always split carries. Never averaged LESS than 4.8 ypc and a good receiver out of the backfield. His measurements do not jump out at you but he is EXTREMELY great at the 3 cone, which is essential for the ZBS imo....Great size and seems to be nifty at his size. Looks like another Foster, but not quite as good. Could be a GREAT 3rd rb on our team.

Round 7. Another late round wr. We need all the competition we can get here.
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Old 02-29-2012   #34
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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Just wondering if you think those guys would still be around at those spots, BL.

1. Kendall Wright, WR Possible
2. Shea McClellin, OLB Possible
3. Juron Criner, WR Possible
4. Derek Wolfe, DE Improbable
5. Levy Adcock, OG/OT Improbable
6. Omar Bolden, CB/SS Improbable
7. Cliff Harris, CB/Returner Possible


See you just mocked McClellin. This is if Texans cannot resign Mario. Otherwise probably go CB early, like the Hosely kid. Otherwise the picks increase in value to point of not being available. Harris being exception, his slower than expected 40 along with his mutliple traffic infractions, maybe he's just trying to keep within the speed limit?
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Old 03-01-2012   #35
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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Originally Posted by otisbean View Post
If you compare 2 OL, and one has 32" arms and puts up 30 reps and another guy puts 25 reps with 37" arms you would assume the first guy was stronger, BUT if you measured the actual range of motion you would see the first guy is pushing through a shorter range of motion thus making the exercise easier. For example, if you measure the distance from chest to lockout on OL 1 you might find he only has to push the bar 14" whereas OL 2 might have to push 20" - thus making the exercise harder from him. I would bet considerable money that if you had OL 2 put a 6" block on his chest to equalize range of motion his number of reps would undoubtedly go up.
If it's distance, according to your example short arm guy moved the same weight a farther total distance. I'm not saying it has no effect whatsoever...I just personally believe it's not THAT big of a deal. I think overall body mass DOES have a lot to do with it, finding two guys of the same height and weight with appreciably different length of arms is kind of...not really common at all. If it does matter, then they need to come up with some sort of calculation to run each guy's test to make them more comparable. Something that takes into account body mass, arm length and such and comes up with a specific weight for them to press, it should be something like 90% of their weight +/- a % for limb length. At least we can agree that everyone pressing 225 is kind of dumb.
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My main issue that you have these athletes training for muscular endurance before the combine and its a waste of time as force output is more important for an OL. Id love to see a test where they hook a force plate up to a blocking sled and have an OL fire out and pop the sled to measure their force output, now that would be interesting.

I also agree with you, having a CB or WR lift the same weight as a DL or OL is ridiculous as well.
Hell yeah, Sports Science should be all over this.
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Old 03-01-2012   #36
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Default Re: The Dream Mock thread

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Floyd is competing hard to overtake Blackmon as the #1 WR in 2012 class. Wright is solidly planted #3
I agree & would take Floyd over Blackmon IF his drinking issue have been controlled. ALso like you mock this thread.
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