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Old 01-21-2012   #21
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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Originally Posted by nero THE zero View Post
I agree with this.

We have 2 options:

1. Stick with the status quo of the roster. Adding a mid-level pick would be redundant and unnecessary. A mid-level talent isn't likely to beat out any of what we have, and will clog the roster.

2. Add a high-level talent either through a first round pick or through free agency. This player would immediately come in as the CB2 (the second biggest need behind WR2, IMO).

I would go the route of #2. That would give you:
CB1: Joseph
CB2: FA/1st rd pick
Nickel: McCain
Jackson/Harris/McMannis/Williams/Carmichael to fight for the last 2 or 3 spots
Sounds great but i honestly see us going WR with our first pick. Maybe moving up in the 1st round to get one of the better WRs in the draft.
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Old 01-21-2012   #22
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Default Re: Jason Allen

Hmmm. Well, he's definitely got the job as the lead in the Al Jolson story if it doesn't work out here. Maaaammmmiiiieee. Lose the celebration. It's not good for your look.
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Old 01-21-2012   #23
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Default Re: Jason Allen

I would really like to see what our whole CB line up looks like after a whole offseason under Vance/Wade.

It is common for players to make their biggest jump from year 1 to 2 but given the historically bad coaching staff of Gibbs/Bush we might see a big jump next year.

I don't know that Allen got adequate coaching in Miami and know he didn't get it here last year.

Several of these guys might play up to their potential next year.
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Old 01-21-2012   #24
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Default Re: Jason Allen

I disagree with the notion that it's not a good idea to take a mid round pick at the cb position.

You want to add competition everywhere.

There are a lot of small school guys that will probably go late or in the mid rounds that have the ability of some of the tier one players. But the thing holding them back is the competition they played against.

Just because you take a guy in the fourth round doesn't mean you expect him to only be a dime corner for you. You can take a guy there and think they have the ability to develop into a starter at some point.

I'm not caught up in the rounds in which a player is taken. I'm more interested in whether or not the team takes guys that are talented. You can find a starter or a solid player in rounds 1-UDFA.
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Old 01-21-2012   #25
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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... You can find a starter or a solid player in rounds 1-UDFA.
Do you mean like that Arian Foster guy?
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Old 01-21-2012   #26
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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IF this franchise wants to go into next season and have a chance to win a superbowl then you need to stick with what works. And Allen/Jackson worked, Allen will be cheap to keep here. And i just dont think that the FO trust KJ to take the full load of the #2 CB position. Allen will be back.
If we want a chance to repeat, or do better, we need to get better.

Sticking with what works is why teams with promising futures become irrelevant.

If we finished with the #3 pass defense, we need do whatever it takes to become the #1 pass defense. If we finished with the #2 overall defense, the goal should be #1.

But I know what you meant.
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Old 01-21-2012   #27
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
If we want a chance to repeat, or do better, we need to get better.

Sticking with what works is why teams with promising futures become irrelevant.

If we finished with the #3 pass defense, we need do whatever it takes to become the #1 pass defense. If we finished with the #2 overall defense, the goal should be #1.

But I know what you meant.
OK.... i dont think the FO is ready to give the full load to KJ, so what do you propose they do, cause i would not fill to confident about next season if they told us today that KJ would no longer split time but he would be the man.
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Old 01-21-2012   #28
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Default Re: Jason Allen

What is done with Allen will probably depend on what the coaching staff really thinks of Harris. Does anyone have a clue what that might be? It's like he fell off the earth once the season began.
I don't see us being a big player in FA, other than maybe at WR. We have too many of our own to try and resign and we're already pushing the cap.
If Allen will resign on the cheap, by all means, keeps him. This season should've illustrated, very clearly, how important quality depth is in this league.
I wouldn't be shocked at all if we drafted a DB in any round. My preferred approach this draft is BPA in every round, regardless of position. We don't need to reach at any position, so why not draft BPA?
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Old 01-21-2012   #29
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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Originally Posted by EllisUnit View Post
OK.... i dont think the FO is ready to give the full load to KJ, so what do you propose they do, cause i would not fill to confident about next season if they told us today that KJ would no longer split time but he would be the man.
I think the FO is ready to let Kj take a full load.

If not, then it's time to part ways.

Plus, we've got Brandon Harris. I think the only reason he didn't see the field, is because with Allen & Kj splitting time, we already had one too many CBs on the 53.
========================================

If they find some way to remove Kj from our team, then we can move McCain over to the #2, Get Brandon Harris on the field. If McMannis is not going to be a CB, we part ways with him, activate Charmichael, & let him Harris, & McCain split time at #2 & Nickel.
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Old 01-21-2012   #30
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I think the FO is ready to let Kj take a full load.

If not, then it's time to part ways.

Plus, we've got Brandon Harris. I think the only reason he didn't see the field, is because with Allen & Kj splitting time, we already had one too many CBs on the 53.
========================================

If they find some way to remove Kj from our team, then we can move McCain over to the #2, Get Brandon Harris on the field. If McMannis is not going to be a CB, we part ways with him, activate Charmichael, & let him Harris, & McCain split time at #2 & Nickel.

I'm with Ellis on this one...

I like how Kareem has progressed, but at this very moment I wouldnt feel comfortable with having him being the full time starter, letting Allen walk and only having McCain, Harris, Carmichael ect behind him...

Now, by the end of training camp next season I may feel different. And this isn't all based on my perception of Kjax...it has a lot to do with the depth behind him.

McCain is excellent in the slot on those crossing routes and trying to stick with guys making multiple moves to get open, but I still think he lacks the physicality and size to go up against some of the bigger receivers he'd see on the outside on an every down basis.

They drafted Harris for a reason. They then went out and signed Joseph for a reason. It was to improve the crop of talent back there.

If they had faith that Kareem and McCain could get it done then I don't think they bring in Carmichael(4th), Harris (traded for in the 2nd), Joseph (big FA signing)...

Maybe their perceptions have changed as these players have evolved under the new system though.

It will definitely be one of the things I am interested in watching this off-season. Corner back depth and talent is very important. Especially in todays NFL.
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Old 01-21-2012   #31
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
If they had faith that Kareem and McCain could get it done then I don't think they bring in Carmichael(4th), Harris (traded for in the 2nd), Joseph (big FA signing)...

Maybe their perceptions have changed as these players have evolved under the new system though.
Totally agree here. It's obvious they didn't feel good with Kj, McCain, & Quin... we drafted/signed FA that changed our secondary completely.

But once Wade got deeper into the film, he started raving about McCain & continued after he saw him in training camp.

I also doubt they expected to bring Allen back, until there was more film study & training camp. Remember our biggest gripe about the 2011 offseason is that we didn't land a veteran CB to help our 1st round pick learned the game.

We brought Allen in halfway through the season & he proved not to be a good enough "veteran"

Jjo is our vet, we don't have reason for Allen. If he stays & I think he did stay in 2011, because they thought they could do something with him.

The 2011 season, in my mind says that McCain, Kj, & Allen have proved to be as good as they thought they would be & CB is much lower on their list of needs for 2012, because they over compensated in 2011. Why draft a high to mid round CB when we've got one on the roster (Harris). Why draft a mid to late round flyer when we've got one on the roster (Carmichael).... if like the 2011 season our starters played like crap & those guys couldn't get on the field as CBs.... like McMannis & Molden then I can see acquiring CBs this offseason.

But we've got bigger questions, bigger needs this offseason, that CB is & should be a low, low priority.
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Old 01-21-2012   #32
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I think the FO is ready to let Kj take a full load.

If not, then it's time to part ways.

Plus, we've got Brandon Harris. I think the only reason he didn't see the field, is because with Allen & Kj splitting time, we already had one too many CBs on the 53.
========================================

If they find some way to remove Kj from our team, then we can move McCain over to the #2, Get Brandon Harris on the field. If McMannis is not going to be a CB, we part ways with him, activate Charmichael, & let him Harris, & McCain split time at #2 & Nickel.
I dont see how you can think the FO office is ready to let KJ take over. Allen played more snaps in the game against Baltimore than KJ did. That has to say a little something about what they think about the 2.
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Old 01-21-2012   #33
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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I dont see how you can think the FO office is ready to let KJ take over. Allen played more snaps in the game against Baltimore than KJ did. That has to say a little something about what they think about the 2.
I didn't actually count, but do agree the split was closer than it had been before. However, I saw Kareem sub for Allen during a series & I saw Allen come in for Jackson during a series... judging the weight of the game they played this one different. I don't think they were counting snaps.... going by situation.

Kj still is a good young prospect & if he's been grading out like they've said he's been grading out through 16 games...... there's no reason to not start him.

I know, many guys think a CB should never allow a pass or a TD, but I bet Cromartie will start next season & if he were a FA he'd be a top CB free agent.

That's the way the game goes. At no time did I see a game in which QBs & WRs were as prolific against our team as they were against the Vikings, Eagles, Ravens, Giants, or Bengals...... those are the teams that finished the regular season with more sacks than us.

So they get as much, & probably more pressure on the QB as we do, yet some of the same teams had big passing days against them, where they didn't against us.
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Old 01-21-2012   #34
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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I didn't actually count, but do agree the split was closer than it had been before. However, I saw Kareem sub for Allen during a series & I saw Allen come in for Jackson during a series... judging the weight of the game they played this one different. I don't think they were counting snaps.... going by situation.

Kj still is a good young prospect & if he's been grading out like they've said he's been grading out through 16 games...... there's no reason to not start him.

I know, many guys think a CB should never allow a pass or a TD, but I bet Cromartie will start next season & if he were a FA he'd be a top CB free agent.

That's the way the game goes. At no time did I see a game in which QBs & WRs were as prolific against our team as they were against the Vikings, Eagles, Ravens, Giants, or Bengals...... those are the teams that finished the regular season with more sacks than us.

So they get as much, & probably more pressure on the QB as we do, yet some of the same teams had big passing days against them, where they didn't against us.
I understand BUT my whole point is that you think the FO office is ready to turn the job over to KJ full time. If that was the case then why wouldnt he have gotten 2/4 or 3/4 of the plays in the most important game we have ever played. Instead Allen got more reps and was in the game when it was crunch time.
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Old 01-21-2012   #35
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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I understand BUT my whole point is that you think the FO office is ready to turn the job over to KJ full time. If that was the case then why wouldnt he have gotten 2/4 or 3/4 of the plays in the most important game we have ever played. Instead Allen got more reps and was in the game when it was crunch time.
I'm saying I don't know if that is true or not. I didn't watch the game counting snaps.

If it's true, I still don't know what that means, but your assertion would definitely be on track.

For me, I'm looking at the whole season. & if the two grade close, even if Kj is slightly behind, his youth & potential makes him the easy choice. After 2 years in the league I still expect a player to improve dramatically over the next 4 years or so. After 6 years in the league, not so much. If they grade even or close my expectation is that Kj would be a much better player next year & the years following.

If however they feel that the game is too big for Kj, that he'll never get it, or that his progress over the next 4 years is going to be slow.... then he's gone.

If they feel he is not good enough to play that position 100% of the time, then he needs to go.... same holds true for Allen.

I'm not saying Kj or Allen would play the #2 position exclusively next season. If they feel good about Harris, he'll probably split time with one of them next year. If he's splitting time with McCain, that tells us where they think he is. If he can't get on the field in 2012, then we flat out missed on that pick.

In short, I don't think Kj split time with Allen because they thought he wasn't good enough. I don't think Allen split time with Kj because they thought he wasn't good enough. I feel & have always felt (& I've said as much) they both earned playing time at that position, so we did something that is very unconventional.

I think the Texans thought they had 3 starting corners + a nickel & they played all four of them. Both Allen & Kj did an excellent job on Bolden, the Ravens #1 WR...

If it were me, I'd keep Allen & trade McCain. Jjo, Kj, & Allen would be my starting CBs. If any one of the three get hurt, then I'd still feel good about bringing McCain or Harris off the bench. The Next Man up thing will continue.

If the Texans find a way to trade Kj... I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Some other team is going to get a nice CB, but I think Kj can & will be elite or on the next tier down. So I'd be asking for a lot in return.
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Old 01-21-2012   #36
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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I dont see how you can think the FO office is ready to let KJ take over. Allen played more snaps in the game against Baltimore than KJ did. That has to say a little something about what they think about the 2.
Don't start hallucinating now, ya' hear? LOL!

KJ play 7 more snaps than Allen (33 to 26).
The distribution comes to about 56% to 44% as I had mentioned roughly for the entire year.

Use your own logic and come to the same conclusion (except it's the total opposite of your claim.)

And BTW, the Texans still send more support/help over to Allen's side.
The TD that he gave up was one of those occasions.
Allen had the safety (Quin) helping on any inside route, yet he still gave up the outside route easily to Boldin.
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Old 01-22-2012   #37
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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Don't start hallucinating now, ya' hear? LOL!

KJ play 7 more snaps than Allen (33 to 26).
The distribution comes to about 56% to 44% as I had mentioned roughly for the entire year.

Use your own logic and come to the same conclusion (except it's the total opposite of your claim.)

And BTW, the Texans still send more support/help over to Allen's side.
The TD that he gave up was one of those occasions.
Allen had the safety (Quin) helping on any inside route, yet he still gave up the outside route easily to Boldin.
oh lord dont start with allen gets more help than KJ, can i get some of your so called "proof" on this. Cause i watch the same games you do and i dont see it. And They were alternating every series, so if u are correct and i did mis count then its cause the D gave up more 1st downs when KJ was in there than allen. To me allen played Bolden much better than KJ did, i saw KJ give up more than a few big plays on the day.

And please tell me why Allen and KJ split time, if allen is So bad and KJ is so good, especially playing in the biggest game in the franchises history.
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Old 01-22-2012   #38
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Default Re: Jason Allen

i have 1 question for you that blows my mind.

Last season the safties had a hatred for KJ according to you and they always sucked while trying to help KJ, while on the other hand they didnt suck when helping Quin. That was your excuse for KJ giving up so many big plays and TDs.

Now all of the sudden KJ is so bad ass haha that he needs no safety help over the top, while allen on the other hand is always getting safety help over the top ?

Another thing, whenever they give JoJo a breather, you know who takes his spot ? It is Allen, they dont move KJ over there to defend the other teams best WR they let allen do it, now why is that, dont you think if jojo goes out and allen comes in they would put KJ on the teams best WR instead of Allen ? But they dont, now explain that to me ? I'm sure you have a wonderful explanation for that.
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Old 01-22-2012   #39
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I'm saying I don't know if that is true or not. I didn't watch the game counting snaps.
For the game, the Texans followed the normal pattern they often (but not always) use for the year.

On "short yardage or expected running situation" they usually bring in a 5th LB and use only one CB (JJo).
For this game, that happenend in two series:
- The Ravens second offensive series where they got the ball on our 2 and scored the TD in 3 plays.
- The next to last series where they tried to run out the clock unsuccesfully (also 3 plays.)

In the first half, Jackson played the 1st and 3rd series (3 and 6 plays respectively.)
The Ravens were aided by the 21yd catch by Boldin where he didn't have both feet in bound (but it was ruled a catch) to kick a FG.

Allen played the 4th and 5th series (3 and 5 plays); the 5th series ended with the TD allowed by Allen.

Jackson played the last 2 series of the half (11 plays and 2 Punts.)

Allen then played the first 2 series of the second half (6 plays and 2 punts.)

Jackson played the next 2 (8 plays/over on downs then 3 and outs).

Allen played the 5th series (3 and out) and most of the 6th series (9 plays and a FG).
He got away with PI on one play and got into a spirited "fight" with Boldin on the next. The Texans wanted to cool him down a little and took him out for one play.

JJo was the lone CB in the next series (Ravens expected to try to run out the clock or taking as much time off the clock as possible.)

Jackson came in for the last snap of the game where the Ravens knelt down to end the game.

Last edited by 76Texan; 01-22-2012 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 01-22-2012   #40
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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Originally Posted by EllisUnit View Post
i have 1 question for you that blows my mind.

Last season the safties had a hatred for KJ according to you and they always sucked while trying to help KJ, while on the other hand they didnt suck when helping Quin. That was your excuse for KJ giving up so many big plays and TDs.

Now all of the sudden KJ is so bad ass haha that he needs no safety help over the top, while allen on the other hand is always getting safety help over the top ?

Another thing, whenever they give JoJo a breather, you know who takes his spot ? It is Allen, they dont move KJ over there to defend the other teams best WR they let allen do it, now why is that, dont you think if jojo goes out and allen comes in they would put KJ on the teams best WR instead of Allen ? But they dont, now explain that to me ? I'm sure you have a wonderful explanation for that.
You are hopeless with all of your incorrect assumptions.

1. You really need to put down the hater glasses and read more carefully.
I said the Texans gave Allen more help than they did Jackson; I never said that they don't ever give safety help to Jackson.
They also gave help to JJo at times (but they don't give Jackson more help than JJo).

2. The times when the CB had safety's help, Jackson was failed the most.

3. I just showed you one play where they gave Allen help.
I will continue to show that Allen get more help as soon as you can start showing a play where Jackson get help.

4. In fact, I won't bother taking anything you say into account until you can show something; I'm tired of playing the kiddie game with you.
I don't dislike you at all, but you have to have some kind of proof before I can have a discussion with you, that is all.
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