Wade IS More Valuable Than Kubiak

[Nitrofish]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Again, there is nothing wrong with raising he bar. I never said that. It's raising the bar to make Gary look like a failure.

"Oh, you took a team that has never had a winning season to 8-8 in two years? Nice, but they should have been 10-6"

"Oh, you went 9-7 two years later for your first winning season ever? Big deal, you should have improved your team to 9-7 from 9-7 like Rex did to get his team into the play-offs after inheriting a top 10 defense & rushing attack."

"Oh, you finally won your division after 6 years? Well, you should have finished 13-3"

Heck, people are already wanting to fire him for losing our first play-off game & the season isn't done yet. This from the people who (16 weeks ago) said they would be happy if we make the play-offs as a Wild-Card.

Below is a perfect example of what you are talking about. No question no matter what they do someone is always raising the bar when it suits them.

Originally Posted by TexansFanatic

In 2011, with Wade Phillips, a cheesecake schedule and Peyton Manning in a wheelchair, we have 10 wins and our first division championship.

But we just lost to the worst team in the league, so there is nobody realistically expecting anything in the playoffs.

Is this raising the bar?

Nobody has raised the bar to unrealistic expectations.

In 2011 we're finally getting what we should have gotten in 2007 or 2008 or 2009 or 2010.

[steelbtexan]

Originally Posted by Nitrofish

Below is a perfect example of what you are talking about. No question no matter what they do someone is always raising the bar when it suits them.

Ummm, no

I've always set the bar high. In fact I started calling for Garys firing after the 2009 9-7 season against a cream puff schedule that was championed as some sort of breakthrough season.

Without Manning the Texans should've made the playoffs this yr with or without Wade. Although if the past 2 games are any evidence they probably wouldn't have made them.

See the difference between guys like guys like us are, I'm a win at all cost guy and you aren't. Making the playoffs and having a great game day experience is enough for some. For some it's not.

There's nothing wrong with either way of thinking. Mediocrity is fine for some and I didn't reset the bar. Or expect the Texans to win a SB this yr even with Schaub.

What I do expect is for Gary to run an offense that doesn't resemble a bad high school offense even with Yates at QB. I really thought Gary had made progress this yr. But without Wade the Gary led Texans appear to be SOS. Leopards cant seem to change their stripes. It probably will always be this way under Gary. (Conservative to a fault)

Oh well it looks like atleast three more yrs of conservative football. I can wait Gary out (Health and the good lord willing) because there will surely be more fail in Garys future if Wade gets a HC gig, which will probably happen sometime in the next 3 yrs.

Even you have to admit that after almost 6 yrs Gary isn't very good at his job as HC (Not OC) of the Texans. Either that or you've been blinded by blatant homerism.

[badboy]

I think most of our starters (some of them 3rd stringers) are banged up and wore out. Many are playing on emotion and even that can wear thin. This is when mistakes and "stupid" plays become glaring to the fans. I have caught criticism for saying sports is not always about the win but how we play. Even with Wade in the booth, I expect to be 10 point underdogs Sunday. If we lose or if we win against Titans, I predict a playoff win.

[Texecutioner]

It's not even an argument over who is more valuable as a coach. This season's dramatic turn around from a defense being the worst in the league to being the best in the league is something that Kubiak couldn't even dream of doing with an offense. The Texans have never been the best offense in the league and it took like 3 to 4 years just to be amongst the best scoring wise. Wade did it in one off season where there was a lockout and when this team had way less time to learn the new system with a ton of new players that had to gel together and get acclimated with one another on top of that.

ANd besides as a HC, Wade's easily been better than Kubiak. He just had 2 winning seasons out of 4 with Dallas and had the best record in the NFC in one of those seasons.

It took WADE COMING HERE FOR THE TEXANS TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS AND FINALLY CROSS OVER THAT HUMP.

So to the posters that are literally trying to argue against this are just in la la land. Wade's value is easily greater than Kubiak's by far and it's not even close.

[Texecutioner]

Originally Posted by Nitrofish

Below is a perfect example of what you are talking about. No question no matter what they do someone is always raising the bar when it suits them.

I don't think you have any idea what people would be saying or doing around this site as far as discussion goes. You've been in here for what 3 weeks now if that?? Certain aspects of this team are being evaluated and criticized by some, and you're just not liking the fact that it's happening and you're lowering the bar when it "suits you."

[gary]

The Kool Aid must taste absolutley delicious to some of you.

[Playoffs]

Oh, c'mon now. Let's not confuse the issue with facts!

So, what you're saying here is a #3 Seed or lower has a 64% chance of playing in and a 45% chance of winning the Super Bowl???

Originally Posted by Nitrofish

2010-11 (XLV)
Packers (#6 NFC Seed) **SB Winner
Steelers (#2 AFC Seed)

2009-10 (XLIV)
Colts (#1 AFC Seed)
Saints (#1 NFC Seed) **SB WInner

2008-09 (XLIII)
Steelers (#2 Seed) **SB Winner
Cardinals (#4 Seed)

2007-08 (XLII)
Patriots (#1 AFC Seed)
Giants (#5 NFC Seed) **SB Winner

2006-07 (XLI)
Colts (#3 AFC Seed) **SB Winner
Bears (#1 NFC Seed)

2005-06 (XL)
Seattle (#1 NFC Seed)
Steelers (#6 AFC Team) **SB Winner

2004-05 (XXXIX)
Patriots (#2 AFC Seed) **SB Winner
Eagles (#1 NFC Seed)

2003-04 (XXXVIII)
Panthers (#3 NFC Seed)
Patriots (#1 AFC Seed) **SB Winner

2002 (XXXVII)
Raiders (#1 AFC Seed)
Buccaneers (#2 NFC Seed) **SB Winner

2001 (XXXVI)
Rams (#1 NFC Seed)
Patriots (#1 AFC Seed) **SB Winner

2000 (XXXV)
Ravens (#4 AFC Seed) **SB Winner
Giants (#1 NFC Seed)

[TexansFanatic]

Originally Posted by Nitrofish

Below is a perfect example of what you are talking about. No question no matter what they do someone is always raising the bar when it suits them.

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

I don't think you have any idea what people would be saying or doing around this site as far as discussion goes. You've been in here for what 3 weeks now if that?? Certain aspects of this team are being evaluated and criticized by some, and you're just not liking the fact that it's happening and you're lowering the bar when it "suits you."

[Nitrofish]

Originally Posted by steelbtexan

Ummm, no

I've always set the bar high. In fact I started calling for Garys firing after the 2009 9-7 season against a cream puff schedule that was championed as some sort of breakthrough season.

Without Manning the Texans should've made the playoffs this yr with or without Wade. Although if the past 2 games are any evidence they probably wouldn't have made them.

See the difference between guys like guys like us are, I'm a win at all cost guy and you aren't. Making the playoffs and having a great game day experience is enough for some. For some it's not.

There's nothing wrong with either way of thinking. Mediocrity is fine for some and I didn't reset the bar. Or expect the Texans to win a SB this yr even with Schaub.

What I do expect is for Gary to run an offense that doesn't resemble a bad high school offense even with Yates at QB. I really thought Gary had made progress this yr. But without Wade the Gary led Texans appear to be SOS. Leopards cant seem to change their stripes. It probably will always be this way under Gary. (Conservative to a fault)

Oh well it looks like atleast three more yrs of conservative football. I can wait Gary out (Health and the good lord willing) because there will surely be more fail in Garys future if Wade gets a HC gig, which will probably happen sometime in the next 3 yrs.

Even you have to admit that after almost 6 yrs Gary isn't very good at his job as HC (Not OC) of the Texans. Either that or you've been blinded by blatant homerism.

I think saying the Texans look like a bad HS football team destroys your credibility and does little to further your agenda to influence others into feeling like you do.

I wonder though if you feel the Texans players and front office echo your sentiments, or if it is only you and like minded fans who feel that way? Obviously current team members might not say anything to keep their jobs, but I do not recall released players moaning about the same things the
"Fire Kubiak" crowd do.

I am sure that by now a disgruntled player would have said something... When Mason was on "No Huddle" he had nothing but nice things to say about the Texans. Did not complain that Kubiak was too conservative. Said they would be fine with TJ. I don't think Mason is trying to keep from burning bridges either since he will likely not play again in the NFL.

It's just my opinion that the "Fire Kubiak" crowd are the minority, and that if the players had no confidence in him, or thought he was too conservative he surely would already be gone by now.

[Nitrofish]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

I don't think you have any idea what people would be saying or doing around this site as far as discussion goes. You've been in here for what 3 weeks now if that?? Certain aspects of this team are being evaluated and criticized by some, and you're just not liking the fact that it's happening and you're lowering the bar when it "suits you."

Well that just shows how short sighted you are. Just because my join date says I am new does not mean I am new. Just means I recently joined as a member. On top of that I can read messages without being a member, and I can surely read what others have posted so I think think you trying to say I could not possibly know anything shows your ignorance with all due respect.

Show one post where I lowered the bar? I thought you said I have not been here long enough to know what is going on so how could you have seen me lower the bar?

Certain aspects are NOT being evaluated.. What is happening is that now the Texans have lost two games to inferior teams the "Fire Kubiak" crowd is ramping back up their rhetoric and are not even going to wait for the season to end. They have already spouted off that the Texans are 1 and done, so do not try to say it is simple evaluation. This "Fire Kubiak" obsession has been going on for years now and borders on a sport.

The "Fire Kubiak" contingent has had all of their hatred bottled up over a 7 game win streak and now that a few games have been dropped they feel justified in starting up again instead of getting behind the team and waiting until the results are in, or the season is over to make an "Evaluation"

[Nitrofish]

Originally Posted by asleep

Oh, c'mon now. Let's not confuse the issue with facts!

So, what you're saying here is a #3 Seed or lower has a 64% chance of playing in and a 45% chance of winning the Super Bowl???

LOL, yeah sorry about that bro... But I am sure there is some kind of mathematical formula that needs to be applied first since Kubiak is our coach to the get the actual statistical chances.

Funny how their memory is so short they cannot even remember that the #6 seed won it last year. And yeah before you guys start ranting.. I am aware we are not the Packers and our HC is not Mike McCarthy, our QB is not Rodgers, blaa, blaa, blaa.

[gary]

Keep on sipping that drink.

[Double Barrel]

Originally Posted by ThaShark316

Helps when the GM went out and got 2 studs in free agency. Or was Wade Phillips in charge of that, too?

Danieal Manning was quoted in the last two weeks that he specifically wanted to play in Houston after Wade was hired as DC.

This draft and FA has Wade's fingerprints all over it. The GM's job is to acquire the talent that the coaches evaluate, not sign guys and force them to fit in a coach's system.

Originally Posted by Nitrofish

These last games did not matter... We were going to be #3 seed no matter what

Regardless of your rather weak straw man argument to distract from your original point (above), what you said was incorrect.

The last two games did matter in playoff positioning.

It is a completely different subject about the significance of playoff positions and homefield advantage based on recent NFL history, but that was not the point that you made.

Originally Posted by ObsiWan

It's not Kubiak alone that brought success. It's the combo of Wade and Kubiak. And if I could keep the combo together "forever" (or for at least another 4-5 years) I would.

Another key piece of the puzzle that's being totally ignored in this discussion is the gathering of the right personnel. Show me any team that you think turned around in one year, or even two, and I'll show you where they either already had a decent talent pool (the Steelers when Cowher took over) or had sucked so long they'd been drafting in the top ten for years (Detroit, San Francisco, Tom Landry's early Cowboys).

You cannot turn a sow's ear into a silk purse until you gather up a lotta damn silk.

Some coaches are good at acquiring talent. Other coaches excel at doing something meaningful with that talent. The great ones are good at both aspects.

So far, Kubiak has shown to be a good OC and offensive talent evaluator. As a HC, his history has clearly been mediocre, and by the grace of Wade, above average this season.

As far as the Landry angle, I think comparing modern head coaches to pre-Super Bowl coaches is misguided and ultimately intellectually vacant. It's a different league today.

Plus, Landry was a football genius. Let's just leave him up high where he belongs and keep him out of the comparisons with mere mortals like Gary Kubiak.

Originally Posted by Nitrofish

The "Fire Kubiak" contingent has had all of their hatred bottled up over a 7 game win streak and now that a few games have been dropped they feel justified in starting up again instead of getting behind the team and waiting until the results are in, or the season is over to make an "Evaluation"

It is silly to act like someone is not a Texans fan if they dislike the head coach. I guess you've got the biggest pom pom of them all?

Fans can root for the team with all their hearts while their heads continue to analyze various aspects of the franchise. Not everyone lives in a black and white world.

[imatexan]

A thread going 6+ pages where all of the content is in the title?



I don't know if this is a good or bad thing lol.

[Texecutioner]

Originally Posted by Nitrofish

Well that just shows how short sighted you are. Just because my join date says I am new does not mean I am new. Just means I recently joined as a member. On top of that I can read messages without being a member, and I can surely read what others have posted so I think think you trying to say I could not possibly know anything shows your ignorance with all due respect.

As I stated in a PM, you are new here and I highly doubt that you know what all these posters have been saying for years and what they would say or do. It's always annoying when new members show up in here and start talking down to others as if they're the "ultimate fan" when no one has any clue of their track record of any sort.

Originally Posted by Nitrofish

Show one post where I lowered the bar? I thought you said I have not been here long enough to know what is going on so how could you have seen me lower the bar?

That was an example to show you how inaccurate your statement was about others that you don't know and how they're trying to raise the bar. They weren't raising the bar by expecting the Texans to beat the Colts who were lead by Dan Orvlosky.

Originally Posted by Nitrofish

Certain aspects are NOT being evaluated.. What is happening is that now the Texans have lost two games to inferior teams the "Fire Kubiak" crowd is ramping back up their rhetoric and are not even going to wait for the season to end.

YOu want to show me where someone suggested that Kubiak needs to be fired after this game?? I don't know anyone on this site that expects Kubiak to be fired after this season. Just about everyone expects him to be back either way. But if you're surprised that folks would question how he coached in two losses against the Colts and the Panthers who are two of the worst teams in football when we're headed into the playoffs, then you're not living in a world of reality here. Fans of every team in the league would be unhappy to lose to the Colts right now especially when they're wanting to approach the post season with momentum. Folks have seen 5 years of failure out of Kubiak and finally this year we saw something different with this team when Wade became the DC and turned the first kubiak coached team into a great team with Wade's great defense leading the way. It's somewhat coincidental that the Texans drop two losses against two of the worst teams in the league when Wade isn't around to coach the defense in those games and more mistakes are made. Maybe it's a fluke and maybe it isn't, but it is fact that two of our worst losses of the season seemed to come along in games when Wade wasn't around.

Originally Posted by Nitrofish

They have already spouted off that the Texans are 1 and done, so do not try to say it is simple evaluation. This "Fire Kubiak" obsession has been going on for years now and borders on a sport.

So what for crying out loud. People are predicting what they think we'll do from an objective standpoint. Why is that such a problem or hard to understand?? We've got a 5th round rookie starting right now with all types of other injuries on this team and we've played really poorly the last two games to where it looks like we can't score 20 points to save our lives. Is it really that crazy to expect us to be one and done in the playoffs considering those conditions?? Every fan I've heard from wants their team to play the Texans right now because of those conditions and believes the same thing. Nothing wrong with feeling confident that we can go further, but to denounce fans that don't feel that way is a little silly especially when this team and this coach have never been to the playoffs every in history.

Originally Posted by Nitrofish

The "Fire Kubiak" contingent has had all of their hatred bottled up over a 7 game win streak and now that a few games have been dropped they feel justified in starting up again instead of getting behind the team and waiting until the results are in, or the season is over to make an "Evaluation"

You want to show me any posts from regulars in here or even newbs in here that have stated they aren't behind the team?? Show me where that was stated.

[ObsiWan]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

Some coaches are good at acquiring talent. Other coaches excel at doing something meaningful with that talent. The great ones are good at both aspects.

So far, Kubiak has shown to be a good OC and offensive talent evaluator. As a HC, his history has clearly been mediocre, and by the grace of Wade, above average this season.

That's why I said the combo is what's working.

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

As far as the Landry angle, I think comparing modern head coaches to pre-Super Bowl coaches is misguided and ultimately intellectually vacant. It's a different league today.

Plus, Landry was a football genius. Let's just leave him up high where he belongs and keep him out of the comparisons with mere mortals like Gary Kubiak.

You just made the same comparison when you said...

Landry = football genius
Kubiak = mere mortal

I happen to agree that Landry was a "football genius"; albeit moreso defensively than offensively. My point was that it took even he a while to assemble a winning team.

And just because a point doesn't support your side of the discussion doesn't make it "misguided and ultimately intellectually vacant". Without any supporting points that explain why you believe that to be the case that statement is no more than a weak brush off.

Nice avatar, by the way. Rep for the HHGttG reference.
"Don't Panic".... Very appropriate.

[gary]

[steelbtexan]

Originally Posted by Nitrofish

I think saying the Texans look like a bad HS football team destroys your credibility and does little to further your agenda to influence others into feeling like you do.

I wonder though if you feel the Texans players and front office echo your sentiments, or if it is only you and like minded fans who feel that way? Obviously current team members might not say anything to keep their jobs, but I do not recall released players moaning about the same things the
"Fire Kubiak" crowd do.

I am sure that by now a disgruntled player would have said something... When Mason was on "No Huddle" he had nothing but nice things to say about the Texans. Did not complain that Kubiak was too conservative. Said they would be fine with TJ. I don't think Mason is trying to keep from burning bridges either since he will likely not play again in the NFL.

It's just my opinion that the "Fire Kubiak" crowd are the minority, and that if the players had no confidence in him, or thought he was too conservative he surely would already be gone by now.

I'm not in the fire Gary crowd this yr. He's done a good job.

Go to almost any non wishbone high school football game and you will see more than 16 passes thrown in a game. (Sorry about the facts)

It doesn't matter what the players/media/fans think about firing Gary.

Gary is BoBBy's boy and as a Texans fan I've come to accept that. If Gary didn't get fired after the abortion that was last season, I dont think BoBBy ever fire him.

BTW, I dont think Gary should be fired after this season. Even though he's not a good HC.

After reading your post again, I said, BAD HIGH SCHOOL OFFENSE, did the Texans offense not look like a bad HS offense? Either you were being disingenious, have a reading comprehention problem or had too much to drink tonight. (All of which I've had a problem with in the past. LOL)

Anyway, if you cant admit the offensive gameplan looked like something Emory Bellard (Aggie reference) drew up. There's no point in further discussing this topic. We will have to agree to disagree.

[Nitrofish]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

It is silly to act like someone is not a Texans fan if they dislike the head coach. I guess you've got the biggest pom pom of them all?

Fans can root for the team with all their hearts while their heads continue to analyze various aspects of the franchise. Not everyone lives in a black and white world.

Seems like you guys are a bit sensitive, because I do not see where I am saying they are not Texans fans. I also do not see where I am saying I am their biggest fan. You are reading that into my words because it is you who want to say if we do not admit that Kubiak has been mediocre and should be replaced than we are just living in a fantasy land.

Of course everyone chooses to support their team in their own manner and I for one am glad they do, because this would be a pretty boring place if everyone thought the same thing.

The fact is you "Doom and Gloom" crew are the one's trying your hardest to push your agenda, not us "Sunshine Pumpers" as you call us. It is you that create most of these threads and when we disagree and post our thoughts, it is us who are called kool-aid sippers, or any number of names and labels you choose to put on us in an effort to belittle us just because we choose to look on the positive side and not dwell on the negative.

You all act as if we do not see any negative which is of course silly. We do see things that are less than perfect, but if perfection is your goal, good luck achieving that.

Don't worry guys... one day McNair and everyone else will catch up to your advanced thinking and then you will finally be able to say "See I told you so"

[Nitrofish]

Originally Posted by steelbtexan

I'm not in the fire Gary crowd this yr. He's done a good job.

Go to almost any non wishbone high school football game and you will see more than 16 passes thrown in a game. (Sorry about the facts)

It doesn't matter what the players/media/fans think about firing Gary.

Gary is BoBBy's boy and as a Texans fan I've come to accept that. If Gary didn't get fired after the abortion that was last season, I dont think BoBBy ever fire him.

BTW, I dont think Gary should be fired after this season. Even though he's not a good HC.

After reading your post again, I said, BAD HIGH SCHOOL OFFENSE, did the Texans offense not look like a bad HS offense? Either you were being disingenious, have a reading comprehention problem or had too much to drink tonight. (All of which I've had a problem with in the past. LOL)

Anyway, if you cant admit the offensive gameplan looked like something Emory Bellard (Aggie reference) drew up. There's no point in further discussing this topic. We will have to agree to disagree.

The offense in that game was what it was.. It was good enough to be winning in the last few minutes of the game. It is the same game plan that hundreds of NFL coaches have used in thousands of games. It may not have been executed as well as we would have liked, but it was certainly enough to win without opening the throttle all the way and exposing key players to injury before our all important playoff run.

I do not believe Kubiak was concerned if we lost... I am sure he would have liked a win, but a loss would not have changed a single thing in the playoff picture and coming out with no injuries to key players was more important than a meaningless win against the Colts.

I am just so tired of hearing this same old mantra about Kubiak. Face it... after this seasons success (make no mistake it is successful) he will not be going anywhere anytime soon so please stow it for now.

Let go of the last two losses, get behind the team and let's beat the Titans and then take care of business in the post season.