Connor Barwin: better than mario? Yes!

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by Dishman

Fair enough. Then the FO should look to workout a deal with him that's commensurate with his position.

Charles Johnson got a deal this off-season for 6yrs and $72 million. I would imagine Mario would look for that, at minimum.

[Texecutioner]

Originally Posted by Dishman

Are you kidding me with this pointing out who said what about Mario?? If you re-read my post you'd realize I said, "All I'm saying is Mario isn't a negative or a zero", referring to myself, though he certainly has his detractors. You'd also realize I am basically in agreement with you; however, I disagree with this assertion that the D-line is beasting as a result of Mario's absence. Do you really discount a new D-coordinator who knows how to scheme a respectable defense or the addition of Jonathan Joseph, who has been touted around these parts as the best FA signing in Texans history, vastly improving the play of the secondary (which in turn improves the D-line play).

I'm not saying that it's because Mario is gone if that's what you felt I was stating. No I"m not saying that because Mario did start off the season looking like he was going to have the best season of his career. He got hurt pretty early though, so we can't really say either way. My thing is that we're having the best pass rush we've ever had by far whether he's in there or not, so Mario is not "a need" here anymore. That much has been proven as the Texans are one of the best pass rushing teams in the entire NFL. Paying Mario ridiculous money simply isn't a financial investment we should take on when we can severely upgrade at DT somehow, upgrade at WR, or get another stud in the secondary. We can still find some GEMS for our pass rush in the draft as well, but I no longer want to pay Mario Williams all this cash when it isn't warranted and we can upgrade in other areas. Right now our pass rush is amongst the top of the league without Mario. Lets fix other positions now and get something for him or let him walk.

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by Texan_Bill

I'm actually with you in this regard. Barwin and Reed are a waaaaay better value. Personally, at the end of the day, I think we've seen Mario's last game as a Texan. That said, I like Mario a lot but the question is (as you pointed out) should the Texans hamstring their "cap" for Mario??? I think, NO!

If the 3-4 defense didn't look that good or if Mario was playing DE in a 3-4, then I would be more apt to re-sign him. However, the 3-4 looks great and he's not going to start at DE in the 3-4. Therefore, he simply doesn't have the value for us that he will for some 4-3 teams with a struggling pass rush.

[beerlover]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

charles johnson got a deal this off-season for 6yrs and $72 million. I would imagine mario would look for that, at minimum.

+ 20

[Dishman]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

I'm not saying that it's because Mario is gone if that's what you felt I was stating. No I"m not saying that because Mario did start off the season looking like he was going to have the best season of his career. He got hurt pretty early though, so we can't really say either way. My thing is that we're having the best pass rush we've ever had by far whether he's in there or not, so Mario is not "a need" here anymore. That much has been proven as the Texans are one of the best pass rushing teams in the entire NFL. Paying Mario ridiculous money simply isn't a financial investment we should take on when we can severely upgrade at DT somehow, upgrade at WR, or get another stud in the secondary. We can still find some GEMS for our pass rush in the draft as well, but I no longer want to pay Mario Williams all this cash when it isn't warranted and we can upgrade in other areas. Right now our pass rush is amongst the top of the league without Mario. Lets fix other positions now and get something for him or let him walk.

Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I know we've spent numerous consecutive high draft picks on the D and we need to focus on other areas. I'm hoping we see some high picks on WR or take a stab at something to shore up our QB position. I think we need to get something in return for Mario eventually. I don't pretend to know the particulars of the NFL CBA, but I hate to see this team let Mario walk for nothing in return. I think the guy can make a big impact on this team still and hopefully at the right price. We have some nice young talent, but they aren't exactly proven.

[Texecutioner]

Originally Posted by Dishman

Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I know we've spent numerous consecutive high draft picks on the D and we need to focus on other areas. I'm hoping we see some high picks on WR or take a stab at something to shore up our QB position. I think we need to get something in return for Mario eventually. I don't pretend to know the particulars of the NFL CBA, but I hate to see this team let Mario walk for nothing in return. I think the guy can make a big impact on this team still and hopefully at the right price. We have some nice young talent, but they aren't exactly proven.

Dale is putting it about right when he mentions what Charles Johnson got last off season, and that will certainly be what Mario wants at minimum. I wouldn't want to pay Mario even that honestly. Mario still has a big name and there will be a team that will pay him a lot, and I don't want to make that mistake again. I agree that we should try to somehow lock him up to be able to trade him and get something though. I'm right with ya there man.

As much as I'd like to continue to build this team all around, I want to use at least one more draft and focus mainly on defense. I love having a lights out defense like this and we can still keep getting better. I want to have the best defensive team in the league.

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by Dishman

Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I know we've spent numerous consecutive high draft picks on the D and we need to focus on other areas. I'm hoping we see some high picks on WR or take a stab at something to shore up our QB position. I think we need to get something in return for Mario eventually. I don't pretend to know the particulars of the NFL CBA, but I hate to see this team let Mario walk for nothing in return. I think the guy can make a big impact on this team still and hopefully at the right price. We have some nice young talent, but they aren't exactly proven.

A couple things:

1. Free Agents- The money not spent on Mario will likely be allocated to other free agents.

2. Depending on how many FAs we sign relative to how many we lose, Mario loss could net us a 3rd round compensatory pick.

[DocBar]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

I'll slide on in here and take Dale Murphy's back for a change on this one.

I"m not sure if Barwin is simply better than Mario, but we're getting a ton of more pressure from that side than we've ever gotten with Mario there by himself. Barwin is definitely more explosive in my eyes. I"ve never seen Mario be as effective as Barwin was yesterday. Bottom line, this team has been way better at getting to the passer without Mario on the field this season. The Texans have never had a good pass rush since their inception until this season and coincidentally it's when Mario isn't playing. I think we've got plenty of guys that can rush the passer now to where we don't need to resign Mario, and can use that money on other positions to make this football team overall a better team.

To Mario's defense though, he did start off the season looking great and he didn't exactly get his full season to show how well he'd look in this new defense for a full season.

The big difference between MW and CB would be in run defense. So far, it's been a wash, but we've been playing with a lead and haven't faced a host of good running teams. How will Barwin do in a close game where he has to honor the run? That's where MW shined. Teams shied away from running at MW. Do they do the same with Barwin? We'll soon find out.

[badboy]

Neither player has to be better than the other. I want the best team I can get. Barwin is doing great. Brooks is doing very good. We should offer Mario to Patriots for a first and second. We use those picks + our 2013 first to trade up for QB Barkley or Robert Griffin 3. We use $5m of the cap savings to sign OG Carl Nicks. $9 million goes to Foster, Dreesen, Maynard + 2011 salaries.

Our 1st round: Dontari Poe NT, 2nd: Dwight Jones WR 3rd Kevin Riddick ILB

[DocBar]

Originally Posted by badboy

Neither player has to be better than the other. I want the best team I can get. Barwin is doing great. Brooks is doing very good. We should offer Mario to Patriots for a first and second. We use those picks + our 2013 first to trade up for QB Barkley or Robert Griffin 3. We use $5m of the cap savings to sign OG Carl Nicks. $9 million goes to Foster, Dreesen, Maynard + 2011 salaries.

Our 1st round: Dontari Poe NT, 2nd: Dwight Jones WR 3rd Kevin Riddick ILB

MW is a free agent at the end of the season. The trade deadline passed a few weeks ago. There is no offering MW to anyone. We're in the same boat as the rest of the league and can only hope that teams are skeptical of his injury recovery. Or we can franchise him, I think. Either way, a buttload of money is going MW's way. I just hope he goes out of conference if/whem he leaves.

[steelbtexan]

Dale and Tex sittin in a tree bustin Marios balls for all to see.

1. Trade Mario for a 1st rd pick.
2. Use the $$$$ saved on MW in FA to sign Soliai and Meachem.
3. Use the 1st gained from trading MW, the Texans 1st/3rd and a 2013 1st to trade up in the draft and take either Barkley or RG3.
4. Extend Foster, If healthy extend Schaub for 2 yrs with team option on 2nd yr.


This would equal my dream offseason. This is the price to pay for a future franchise QB.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Dishman

I think for the most part you know what you have in Mario the man, Mario the 4-3 DE, just not Mario the 3-4 LB'er. Are you saying in 4 games we've seen all he has to offer from that position? I am aware Mario isn't bulletproof, the he's a human being bound to make mistakes or not live up to someone's lofty expectations. All I'm saying is the guy isn't a zero or a negative to this team. He is a definite plus and to cast him out as useless is unwise.

We know what we're going to get with Mario. If you want that on your team, make him an offer & see if he takes.

Mario is a football player. A complete DE & looked like he was going to be a special OLB.

Imagine Mario, Barwin, & Reed in a defensive rotation, the offense would never get a break. Then on particular situations... If you want a 5 man front, you can put Mario at the 5 with Watt at the nose, Smith at the 3, with Reed & Barwin on the outside.


In response to the 6 year $72Million contract, that could be $6 million against the cap for the first 2 years, $9 million for the 3rd, $12 million for the 4th with the remaining $39 million to be accrued in the last 2 years of the contract. But.... if your GM is smart, & the players agent, you'll renegotiate that contract before year 5 or you cut/trade him.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by DocBar

MW is a free agent at the end of the season. The trade deadline passed a few weeks ago. There is no offering MW to anyone. We're in the same boat as the rest of the league and can only hope that teams are skeptical of his injury recovery. Or we can franchise him, I think. Either way, a buttload of money is going MW's way. I just hope he goes out of conference if/whem he leaves.

I thought it was clear I was talking about the off season? Have to allow another team to know he will probably be healthy. My error.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by steelbtexan

Dale and Tex sittin in a tree bustin Marios balls for all to see.

1. Trade Mario for a 1st rd pick.
2. Use the $$$$ saved on MW in FA to sign Soliai and Meachem.
3. Use the 1st gained from trading MW, the Texans 1st/3rd and a 2013 1st to trade up in the draft and take either Barkley or RG3.
4. Extend Foster, If healthy extend Schaub for 2 yrs with team option on 2nd yr.


This would equal my dream offseason. This is the price to pay for a future franchise QB.

For some reason I really like this post.

[jtexas]

Originally Posted by steelbtexan

Dale and Tex sittin in a tree bustin Marios balls for all to see.

1. Trade Mario for a 1st rd pick.
2. Use the $$$$ saved on MW in FA to sign Soliai and Meachem.
3. Use the 1st gained from trading MW, the Texans 1st/3rd and a 2013 1st to trade up in the draft and take either Barkley or RG3.
4. Extend Foster, If healthy extend Schaub for 2 yrs with team option on 2nd yr.


This would equal my dream offseason. This is the price to pay for a future franchise QB.

By the time RG3 hits draft day he will be a top 5 pick.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

We know what we're going to get with Mario. If you want that on your team, make him an offer & see if he takes.

Mario is a football player. A complete DE & looked like he was going to be a special OLB.

Imagine Mario, Barwin, & Reed in a defensive rotation, the offense would never get a break. Then on particular situations... If you want a 5 man front, you can put Mario at the 5 with Watt at the nose, Smith at the 3, with Reed & Barwin on the outside.


In response to the 6 year $72Million contract, that could be $6 million against the cap for the first 2 years, $9 million for the 3rd, $12 million for the 4th with the remaining $39 million to be accrued in the last 2 years of the contract. But.... if your GM is smart, & the players agent, you'll renegotiate that contract before year 5 or you cut/trade him.

Why would Mario sign that? You offer no bonus? Up total and bring a $25m upfront bonus & you might get him to agree.

[DocBar]

Originally Posted by badboy

I thought it was clear I was talking about the off season? Have to allow another team to know he will probably be healthy. My error.

Healthy or not, MW has no obligation to sign anything at all with the Texans, short of a franchise tag. Did I misunderstand you and you're talking about this year's preseason/pre trade deadline?

[steelbtexan]

Originally Posted by badboy

Neither player has to be better than the other. I want the best team I can get. Barwin is doing great. Brooks is doing very good. We should offer Mario to Patriots for a first and second. We use those picks + our 2013 first to trade up for QB Barkley or Robert Griffin 3. We use $5m of the cap savings to sign OG Carl Nicks. $9 million goes to Foster, Dreesen, Maynard + 2011 salaries.

Our 1st round: Dontari Poe NT, 2nd: Dwight Jones WR 3rd Kevin Riddick ILB

Or this

LOL

[badboy]

Originally Posted by jtexas

By the time RG3 hits draft day he will be a top 5 pick.

Not necessarily as it would depend on what teams are top 5. Colts have Luck, Dolphins could take Barkley then three other temas draft that don't need QBs......

Also I want to see RG3 play against Texas after that concussion that took him out of SMU game.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

A couple things:

1. Free Agents- The money not spent on Mario will likely be allocated to other free agents.

Whatever we pay Mario is not the end-all be-all about what Free agents we can sign. It's more about his cap hit, which is more like funny money. I'm sure there are some guidelines, but a creative capologist can make Mario's cap number very Texans friendly if Mario & his agent agrees.

As an agent/player, I'm more worried about my bonus, the guaranteed money, & the yearly break down. I'll sign a ten year contract to get the Cap number down, as long as the pay-out guarantees a big payday in four years or force a renegotiation.

Like Mario's six year deal. If it weren't for the lock-out, they probably would have redone Mario's contract in the off season. They did "however" renegotiate Schaub's to fit Jjo & Manning under the cap, so it's possible that the Texans aren't sure they want to keep Mario.

So who knows?