Connor Barwin: better than mario? Yes!

[Dishman]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

I'll slide on in here and take Dale Murphy's back for a change on this one.

I"m not sure if Barwin is simply better than Mario, but we're getting a ton of more pressure from that side than we've ever gotten with Mario there by himself. Barwin is definitely more explosive in my eyes. I"ve never seen Mario be as effective as Barwin was yesterday. Bottom line, this team has been way better at getting to the passer without Mario on the field this season. The Texans have never had a good pass rush since their inception until this season and coincidentally it's when Mario isn't playing. I think we've got plenty of guys that can rush the passer now to where we don't need to resign Mario, and can use that money on other positions to make this football team overall a better team.

To Mario's defense though, he did start off the season looking great and he didn't exactly get his full season to show how well he'd look in this new defense for a full season.

There is absolutely no correlation between Mario's absence and the high-level of play by the defense, particularly the LB spot. As you suggest it is coincidence only. The spectacular defense we see is due to the combination of talent, a real D-coordinator on Phillips, and a respectable secondary courtesy of J-Jo. To suggest otherwise is dishonest, in my opinion.

I think the D gets along fine without him, as has already been proven, but I'd certainly love to have him back at the right price for his position. I think the prudent thing for the Texan's FO to do is to franchise Mario next year which provides them a full season to see how he works out or if he is again injured for a significant portion of the season. If he stays healthy and the performance isn't there then a trade scenario should be visited.

[Texecutioner]

Originally Posted by Dishman

There is absolutely no correlation between Mario's absence and the high-level of play by the defense, particularly the LB spot. As you suggest it is coincidence only. The spectacular defense we see is due to the combination of talent, a real D-coordinator on Phillips, and a respectable secondary courtesy of J-Jo. To suggest otherwise is dishonest, in my opinion.

I think the D gets along fine without him, as has already been proven, but I'd certainly love to have him back at the right price for his position. I think the prudent thing for the Texan's FO to do is to franchise Mario next year which provides them a full season to see how he works out or if he is again injured for a significant portion of the season. If he stays healthy and the performance isn't there then a trade scenario should be visited.

None of that really matters when I've been able to see Mario for like 5+ years at his position and disappear in games. He's been inconsistent a lot and I don't care what anyone says, HE TAKES PLAYS OFF!!! He did in college and that was the biggest knock on him coming into the league by all scouts. I've seen the exact type of player in the NFL on the Texans where he looks very dominant at times, but then goes away for long stretches of games where I watch him and I don't see a "non stop motor" player in the game. Mario has never been that dominant pass rusher that effects opposing team's QB's all game long to where they're just out of their zone. He has spurts where he plays great and looks like a monster, but he has never been that guy consistently. I don't care what kind of defensive systems we've had in the past either.

Another thing to add is that I've never heard anyone talk about Mario having one of the greatest work ethics on the team on and off the practice field. He's never been that guy that you hear about when people say "follow what Mario does" or watch how he works day in and day out as a professional and you'll learn what it's like to be in this league. I've heard that about guys like AJ, Demeco, and even Cushing at times. Never heard that about Mario before, and this was a long winded conversation on the radio one day, and I completely agreed with it.

Bottom line is that our pass rush is better than it's ever been in Texans history when Mario isn't here and we're 8-3 with a ton of other injuries. It's quite obvious to me that this team doesn't "NEED" Mario Williams to be a great team and the money that they pay him can go to some other very good players that they may need to go to that next level.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Dishman

I think the D gets along fine without him, as has already been proven, but I'd certainly love to have him back at the right price for his position. I think the prudent thing for the Texan's FO to do is to franchise Mario next year which provides them a full season to see how he works out or if he is again injured for a significant portion of the season. If he stays healthy and the performance isn't there then a trade scenario should be visited.

I agree with the Haters on this one.

If you're not sure what you've got in Mario after 6 years, it's time to say goodbye. Especially if other teams still see value in him.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

None of that really matters when I've been able to see Mario for like 5+ years at his position and disappear in games. He's been inconsistent a lot and I don't care what anyone says, HE TAKES PLAYS OFF!!!

I don't believe this. Just saying, & I really don't understand how others can believe it either. I'm watching the same games (I think) & I'm just not seeing it.

[4x4tx]

I agree, save his salary and sign a stud wr and another CB. Mario at 4-5 mill a year ok maybe, for 12 -20 a year, no way. I like what we have right now, we arent missing him one bit. Lots of hungry guys with high motors vs one overpaid low motor guy. See ya Mario

[Dishman]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I agree with the Haters on this one.

If you're not sure what you've got in Mario after 6 years, it's time to say goodbye. Especially if other teams still see value in him.

I think for the most part you know what you have in Mario the man, Mario the 4-3 DE, just not Mario the 3-4 LB'er. Are you saying in 4 games we've seen all he has to offer from that position? I am aware Mario isn't bulletproof, the he's a human being bound to make mistakes or not live up to someone's lofty expectations. All I'm saying is the guy isn't a zero or a negative to this team. He is a definite plus and to cast him out as useless is unwise.

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by Dishman

I think for the most part you know what you have in Mario the man, Mario the 4-3 DE, just not Mario the 3-4 LB'er. Are you saying in 4 games we've seen all he has to offer from that position? I am aware Mario isn't bulletproof, the he's a human being bound to make mistakes or not live up to someone's lofty expectations. All I'm saying is the guy isn't a zero or a negative to this team. He is a definite plus and to cast him out as useless is unwise.

Don't pay inconsistent players who can't stay healthy and have a questionable motor a lot of money. I'm not sure why this is so upsetting to so many people. Mario is a bit of an underachiever given his athletic ability. Enjoying the under-appreciated player succeed at a high level is something I would think people would embrace. Charles Johnson received a 6 year $72 million contract this year. Would you really give that to Mario? Why? We don't need the guy. Barwin and Reed are clearly good enough to be impact players on an elite defense. Barwin's going to have double digit sacks this season. He's likely to finish with more sacks than Mario ever has, with the exception of 2007. Hmm... who would've predicted Barwin would make this kind of impact? Oh, yeah, ME!

[Texecutioner]

Originally Posted by Dishman

I think for the most part you know what you have in Mario the man, Mario the 4-3 DE, just not Mario the 3-4 LB'er. Are you saying in 4 games we've seen all he has to offer from that position? I am aware Mario isn't bulletproof, the he's a human being bound to make mistakes or not live up to someone's lofty expectations. All I'm saying is the guy isn't a zero or a negative to this team. He is a definite plus and to cast him out as useless is unwise.

Would you like to point out where anyone called him a negative or a zero?? I haven't seen anyone say anything close to that. The only thing being stated is that he isn't worth the money he'll demand, and quite frankly he damn sure hasn't been worth the money he has been paid for years here, because over all our pass rush has been pathetic until this season where he isn't playing. I think that's pretty telling when we're having our best season as far as a pass rush goes when Mario isn't out there. And a new system doesn't change things when Mario's main role has been to simply rush the passer over the years.

Whether you believe Mario is a great player or not, doesn't change the fact that we have a great pass rush without him in there and right now the guys that are in there all have non stop motors from what I can see so far. These guys go all out on every play and that is something that simply isn't in Mario for 4 quarters. These guys aren't being paid anywhere near what Mario is or will be paid and they're extremely motivated to become big time players for more money as oppose to a guy that is already bloated rich and will be looking to get more rich on his next contract. No thanks.

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

Would you like to point out where anyone called him a negative or a zero?? I haven't seen anyone say anything close to that. The only thing being stated is that he isn't worth the money he'll demand, and quite frankly he damn sure hasn't been worth the money he has been paid for years here, because over all our pass rush has been pathetic until this season where he isn't playing. I think that's pretty telling when we're having our best season as far as a pass rush goes when Mario isn't out there. And a new system doesn't change things when Mario's main role has been to simply rush the passer over the years.

Whether you believe Mario is a great player or not, doesn't change the fact that we have a great pass rush without him in there and right now the guys that are in there all have non stop motors from what I can see so far. These guys go all out on every play and that is something that simply isn't in Mario for 4 quarters. These guys aren't being paid anywhere near what Mario is or will be paid and they're extremely motivated to become big time players for more money as oppose to a guy that is already bloated rich and will be looking to get more rich on his next contract. No thanks.

Proverbial: Nail on Head, Tex!

[Texan_Bill]

Mario is obviously a better overall talent, but it's actually hard to argue against the OP. Barwin not only had the 4 sacks, but also had 10 overall tackles... Thats a pretty dadgum day.

So maybe it breaks down like this: Mario is a better athlete, but maybe Barwin is a better "football player"..

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by Texan_Bill

Mario is obviously a better overall talent, but it's actually hard to argue against the OP. Barwin not only had the 4 sacks, but also had 10 overall tackles... Thats a pretty dadgum day.

So maybe it breaks down like this: Mario is a better athlete, but maybe Barwin is a better "football player"..

I wouldn't even go that far... yet. But, Barwin is better for our system, I think. If you go back and review the game, those 4 sacks came in a limited number of rushes, because Barwin also dropped in coverage quite a bit... and was effective in doing so. It is that last element that separates him in my opinion... not to mention the fact that he counts $13 million less against the cap this year than Mario does.

[buddyboy]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

Would you like to point out where anyone called him a negative or a zero?? I haven't seen anyone say anything close to that. The only thing being stated is that he isn't worth the money he'll demand, and quite frankly he damn sure hasn't been worth the money he has been paid for years here, because over all our pass rush has been pathetic until this season where he isn't playing. I think that's pretty telling when we're having our best season as far as a pass rush goes when Mario isn't out there. And a new system doesn't change things when Mario's main role has been to simply rush the passer over the years.

Whether you believe Mario is a great player or not, doesn't change the fact that we have a great pass rush without him in there and right now the guys that are in there all have non stop motors from what I can see so far. These guys go all out on every play and that is something that simply isn't in Mario for 4 quarters. These guys aren't being paid anywhere near what Mario is or will be paid and they're extremely motivated to become big time players for more money as oppose to a guy that is already bloated rich and will be looking to get more rich on his next contract. No thanks.

The argument presented in the original post was that Connor Barwin is better than Mario due to the face that Barwin has had a 4 sack game and Mario has not and that Mario can't do some things Barwin can. He didn't mention a thing about money, simply that Barwin: better than mario? Yes! Because he's had a 4 sack game and can do things Mario can't.

Since you've backed up dale this far, are you willing to say that Barwin is better than Mario?

[LikeMike]

No way Barwin is better than Mario - he just does, what he does extremely well. On at least one of his sacks against Jax he wasn`t blocked at all - he isn`t getting the same kind of attention from the other teams that Mario got (yeah, he also got some of his sacks against TEs...). But that`s ok - with him and Reeds on the outside and Watt and Smith on the inside, we are having a great pass rush. So don`t we need Mario?

I just wanna say this: you don`t let a talent that is in so high regards in this league just walk away. Yeah he is inconsistent and injury prone, but he is still a physical monster that gets a ton of attention. For me there is no question: extend his contract (of course within reason).

We don`t have to keep him for the whole contract - I am pretty sure some teams would love to have him and would throw in some nice assets to get their hands on a premier pass rusher.

But in the end - I´d like to see Mario, Barwin and Reed as a three headed monster with one year of experience in a 3-4 next year. I´m pretty sure, that the pass rush is fixed for the foreseeable future.

[Dishman]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

Don't pay inconsistent players who can't stay healthy and have a questionable motor a lot of money. I'm not sure why this is so upsetting to so many people. Mario is a bit of an underachiever given his athletic ability. Enjoying the under-appreciated player succeed at a high level is something I would think people would embrace. Charles Johnson received a 6 year $72 million contract this year. Would you really give that to Mario? Why? We don't need the guy. Barwin and Reed are clearly good enough to be impact players on an elite defense. Barwin's going to have double digit sacks this season. He's likely to finish with more sacks than Mario ever has, with the exception of 2007. Hmm... who would've predicted Barwin would make this kind of impact? Oh, yeah, ME!

Good of you to pat yourself on the back and all. I don't plan to sway your opinion as you've made it abundantly (annoyingly?) clear where you stand on Mario. I'm not some myopic fan thinking we need to break the bank on him. I said franchise him and go from there. Trade him if it makes sense, but don't just cut him loose for zilch. The guy has talent and may find Wade Phillips is a great motivator for him.

[GlassHalfFull]

To Quote Thorn from another thread

will you people please quit posting in this goddamned thread so it will fall off the bottom of the forum page????

[Texecutioner]

Originally Posted by buddyboy

The argument presented in the original post was that Connor Barwin is better than Mario due to the face that Barwin has had a 4 sack game and Mario has not and that Mario can't do some things Barwin can. He didn't mention a thing about money, simply that Barwin: better than mario? Yes! Because he's had a 4 sack game and can do things Mario can't.

Since you've backed up dale this far, are you willing to say that Barwin is better than Mario?

I've been on Dale's side of this for a while and if people weren't so blinded with Mario's "first pick of the draft" status, and had Mario been some 2nd round pick of that draft a lot of people would agree possibly.

Is Barwin better than Mario?? I'm not sure about that, because Barwin has hardly been able to play. He hardly got to play as a rookie and than got hurt last season. I know that this year so far while he has had to be in rotation unlike what Mario has had to do for several years, Barwin is looking more explosive and like a better consistent pass rusher than Mario has ever been. Does Mario have more potential?? Probably so, but one thing I will say without any hesitation is that Barwin plays way harder than Mario does on a play after play basis. People can try to ignore the fact that Mario doesn't go all out 100% of the time, but I will not. The scouts warned people of this when he came out of college and that's who he is. I don't have to have that worry about Barwin or these other young guys who have a lot to prove right now. Mario doesn't have a lot to prove because he's been treated like a god in Houston since he was drafted.

I don't think I'd say that Barwin is better at this point, but I'll definitely say that I'd rather have Barwin going forward. He's very capable of being an impact player consistently, he goes all out on every play, and he'll play here for a smaller contract.

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by Dishman

Good of you to pat yourself on the back and all. I don't plan to sway your opinion as you've made it abundantly (annoyingly?) clear where you stand on Mario. I'm not some myopic fan thinking we need to break the bank on him. I said franchise him and go from there. Trade him if it makes sense, but don't just cut him loose for zilch. The guy has talent and may find Wade Phillips is a great motivator for him.

Mario would count $17 million against the cap if we franchised him. It would destroy our off-season and disable our ability to sign and extend Foster and/or Schaub. We will either have to sign him to another long term deal or we will have to let him walk.

[Dishman]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

Would you like to point out where anyone called him a negative or a zero?? I haven't seen anyone say anything close to that. The only thing being stated is that he isn't worth the money he'll demand, and quite frankly he damn sure hasn't been worth the money he has been paid for years here, because over all our pass rush has been pathetic until this season where he isn't playing. I think that's pretty telling when we're having our best season as far as a pass rush goes when Mario isn't out there. And a new system doesn't change things when Mario's main role has been to simply rush the passer over the years.

Whether you believe Mario is a great player or not, doesn't change the fact that we have a great pass rush without him in there and right now the guys that are in there all have non stop motors from what I can see so far. These guys go all out on every play and that is something that simply isn't in Mario for 4 quarters. These guys aren't being paid anywhere near what Mario is or will be paid and they're extremely motivated to become big time players for more money as oppose to a guy that is already bloated rich and will be looking to get more rich on his next contract. No thanks.

Are you kidding me with this pointing out who said what about Mario?? If you re-read my post you'd realize I said, "All I'm saying is Mario isn't a negative or a zero", referring to myself, though he certainly has his detractors. You'd also realize I am basically in agreement with you; however, I disagree with this assertion that the D-line is beasting as a result of Mario's absence. Do you really discount a new D-coordinator who knows how to scheme a respectable defense or the addition of Jonathan Joseph, who has been touted around these parts as the best FA signing in Texans history, vastly improving the play of the secondary (which in turn improves the D-line play).

[Dishman]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

Mario would count $17 million against the cap if we franchised him. It would destroy our off-season and disable our ability to sign and extend Foster and/or Schaub. We will either have to sign him to another long term deal or we will have to let him walk.

Fair enough. Then the FO should look to workout a deal with him that's commensurate with his position.

[Texan_Bill]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

Mario would count $17 million against the cap if we franchised him. It would destroy our off-season and disable our ability to sign and extend Foster and/or Schaub. We will either have to sign him to another long term deal or we will have to let him walk.

I'm actually with you in this regard. Barwin and Reed are a waaaaay better value. Personally, at the end of the day, I think we've seen Mario's last game as a Texan. That said, I like Mario a lot but the question is (as you pointed out) should the Texans hamstring their "cap" for Mario??? I think, NO!