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Old 08-11-2011   #301
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.











You can see that Davis was getting to react to an outside move.
You can also see that Allen was nowhere close to the crosser.
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Old 08-11-2011   #302
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.







Here you can see that the receiver is about to break Davis' cushion.

You can also see that the safety and the LB were converging on the crosser.
The QB would never throw there!

Allen needed to get back to the post pronto to help on the deep route.
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Old 08-11-2011   #303
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.







The receiver Jennings broke Davis' cushion.
Allen waited until the QB step up in his throw before getting back deep.
That's too late!
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Old 08-11-2011   #304
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.











Not only Davis was very far off the receiver, he let the receiver scoot free down the side line, way outside the numbers (far from help.)
The rest was history!

Allen was in position to help, but didn't play it correctly.
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Old 08-11-2011   #305
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

76 It looks to me that Allen expected more help as the reciever crossed the middle from the SS or possibly a LB.

When that didnt happen the FS moved up and you are right that Allen didnt get deep early enough. Should have done that as soon as the FS moved up instead he continued laterally.

A mistake by one player is again compounded by the mistakes of another ..... Its a snowball effect. Shit rolls downhill.
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Old 08-11-2011   #306
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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76 It looks to me that Allen expected more help as the reciever crossed the middle from the SS or possibly a LB.

When that didnt happen the FS moved up and you are right that Allen didnt get deep early enough. Should have done that as soon as the FS moved up instead he continued laterally.

A mistake by one player is again compounded by the mistakes of another ..... Its a snowball effect. Shit rolls downhill.
Yessir, that is pretty much how I saw it as well.
The only thing I would disagree with slightly is that with 3 guys on the back end, you should be able to defend this 2-man route.

Refer to the earlier post about cover 3 by Matt Bowen (this guy has some good reads):

" The corners must maintain outside leverage and use the free safety to their advantage. If they get beat to their outside, they have no help to rely on. That is why they use zone technique (back to the sideline) and widen with any vertical release to protect the sideline.

The free safety is the top of the defense. He must honor his responsibilities and not chase any intermediate routes. Offenses will run a deep dig (15-yard square in) to entice the free safety to jump the route — while running a post from the opposite side of the field, leaving the corner naked and playing from outside in with zero help. A classic Cover 3-beater."

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...k-Cover-3.html
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Old 08-11-2011   #307
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Yessir, that is pretty much how I saw it as well.
The only thing I would disagree with slightly is that with 3 guys on the back end, you should be able to defend this 2-man route.

Refer to the earlier post about cover 3 by Matt Bowen (this guy has some good reads):

" The corners must maintain outside leverage and use the free safety to their advantage. If they get beat to their outside, they have no help to rely on. That is why they use zone technique (back to the sideline) and widen with any vertical release to protect the sideline.

The free safety is the top of the defense. He must honor his responsibilities and not chase any intermediate routes. Offenses will run a deep dig (15-yard square in) to entice the free safety to jump the route — while running a post from the opposite side of the field, leaving the corner naked and playing from outside in with zero help. A classic Cover 3-beater."

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...k-Cover-3.html

Right - The SS or LB didnt get middle coverage - the FS bit on the middle route , the other corner is left naked and Allen didnt recover in time to help with the deep ball ..... fail all around.
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Old 08-11-2011   #308
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

In a 2 man route and the suppposed cover 3, the safety and mike were suppose to "rob" route. That display had basically zero to do with allen. The deep third safety should never let anyone get deeper than him. If that was a cover 3, divide the backend into 1/3. Davis and allen are suppose to carry their guys . Looking at that again, it was more of a combo coverage off a press.
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Old 08-11-2011   #309
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
In a 2 man route and the suppposed cover 3, the safety and mike were suppose to "rob" route. That display had basically zero to do with allen. The deep third safety should never let anyone get deeper than him. If that was a cover 3, divide the backend into 1/3. Davis and allen are suppose to carry their guys . Looking at that again, it was more of a combo coverage off a press.
I thought it was more of a pattern matching zone .... even if it was played horribly by the whole secondary and the ILB who had the short middle zone.
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Old 08-12-2011   #310
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
In a 2 man route and the suppposed cover 3, the safety and mike were suppose to "rob" route. That display had basically zero to do with allen. The deep third safety should never let anyone get deeper than him. If that was a cover 3, divide the backend into 1/3. Davis and allen are suppose to carry their guys . Looking at that again, it was more of a combo coverage off a press.
I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean.
Basically, you're saying that the deep safety should always stay back, right?
(Just as the quote from an article I had given.)

That would be just the same as what the Chargers did when they gave up 17 yards to JJ on on play and 33 yards to James Casey on another play.

And that was what I contended if the Defens stayed in Cover 3...

However, Wilson, for example, in the same game (Chargers) stepped down on the crossing route just as the deep safety did in the Packers game.
(There were other examples in this thread, maybe you didn't have time to read through the whole thing? It's the main thing I wanted to discuss in this thread.)

That's how the defense would play it if they have a "drop-kick" call on.
When the safety step down on the crosser, the off-side CB takes the post.
(In that case, it has everything to do with Allen.)
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Old 08-12-2011   #311
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

The common theme in these 2-man pattern is that the play-side CB played it the same way (pretty much.)

They played to guard the sideline (the corner route, the back shoulder fade, the come-backer) ...

... every single one of them, from Aso to Rashean Mathis (Jags) to Hayden (Colts), to Newman (Cowboys), to V. Davis (Dolphins) to Jackson (Texans), among the plays I can remember.

And the result was a constant big play for the offense when the safety step down on the crossing route and the off-side CB doesn't take over the post.

When the off-side CB takes over the post, the situation reverses itself.
Jenkins (Cowboys), for example, had an INT.

For the Texans, Quin almost had a TD when he took over the post against Collins (Titans.)
Unfortunately, Nolan also read the play well and came off the crossing route trying to get back to help.
It was a good effort play by Nolan; however, he got into Quin's way and deflected the ball that the receiver ended up with.
It was just the Texans' luck.

I'll try to show that play soon!
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Old 08-12-2011   #312
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

Here's the play against Collins that I had promised for a while.

Side view:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/...T/Side%20view/

Front view:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/.../Front%20view/
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Old 10-14-2011   #313
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Default Rookie CB a quick comparison - KJ vs Patrick Peterson and others

Alright, now that I have had time to watch all the early actions of the Cardinals (Patrick Peterson - the first CB drafted this year, and a highly-touted prospect as the second coming of Deion Sanders by many of the "pros" as well as many of the TT board members), let me recap what I observed.


So far, Peterson had given up 3 passing TDs, including Cam Newton's first as a pro.
He also gave up two rushing TDs (directly).

Peterson was thrown into the fire similarly as Kareem Jackson; however, the safeties have yet to fail him (Peterson). Everything he got, it's on him.


He had one INT at the end of the first half against the Seahawks.

Before that, his QB (Kolb) had thrown an INT with no time left on the clock.
On the run back, the Cards committed a penalty, however.

The ref awarded the Seahawks with one play near midfield.

QB Tavaris Jackson was chased around as he heaved a hail-mary into a crowd of three defenders; one of them tipped the ball away, right toward the fourth defender (Peterson, who had nobody on him.)


Peterson registered 3 PDs.

One of them was in the Seahawks game (I believe they counted the INT as a PD because I don't see anything else in the gamebook that corresponds with a seperate play.)
I didn't see him defend any pass when I watched the game.

The other two were against the Giants.

On one of them, the pass was thrown behind the receiver on a slant and Peterson broke it off (he was trailing the play as most CBs defending the slant.) A good pass would haven been a completion.
It was still a nice play by Peterson though.

The other one was on a fade route in which Peterson overplayed the fade and made a good break up.

However, when he tried to overplayed the fade again later on, the receiver continued on the go route and beat him for a TD.
(A setup).


Peterson registered 22 solos.
Most of these tackles were after a catch.


The 3 TDs he gave up was against the Panthers, the Skins, and the Giants.

Against the Vikings, McNabb only attempted 21 passes, one of them resulted in a 36yd PI on Peterson.
On the same drive, the other Peterson (Adrian) ran over Patrick on a 14yd TD run.
On another TD run to the edge, AP juked PP out of his sock and left him in the dirt.


In fact, the other CB, AJ Jefferson, an UDFA in 2010, played much better for the Cards than Patrick Peterson.

He had 8 PDs and was good in run support.
Quite a few of his 23 solos were in this mode.
Out of college, one of my concern about him is the angle he took on some tackles. That seems to be corrected.

This guy, AJ Jefferson, was the dark horse that I mentioned before the 2010draft.
I gave him a 5th round grade (only because he played for a smaller school - Fresno St.) and thought the Texans should draft him.
(He was good at the combine on a few drills, I can't remember which ones though.)

He played as a reserve in 2 games last year, but earned the starting nod this year.

...

I wonder why we didn't hear the "pros" singing about Patrick Peterson!?!

Now, I'm not saying he will be a bust, because he's not.
I do think, however, that touting him as the next Deion Sanders is probably over the top.
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Old 10-14-2011   #314
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Default Re: Rookie CB a quick comparison - KJ vs Patrick Peterson and others

The next one is McCourty, whom a few of the TT board members brought up (in hindsight) when they "declared" that the Texans picked the wrong guy.

I had talked of McCourty and his limited role in the Pats D last year as a cover 2 corner.
Due to his limited role, and the protection they gave him, McCourty "looked" good in quite a few instances (which prompted the "love").

This year, they don't babysitting him hardly anymore, and he struggled mightily.
So far, at least 4 TD passes can be attributed directly to McCourty this year.
I'm not quite sure about the coverage on another one so I won't mention it.

He has 3 PDS and 29 solos (ie., got thrown on a lot.)

Here's something about him from nfl.com
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...sponsibilities

"Scouts look at Nnamdi Asomugha's deployment in Philly, and scratch their heads. Up I-95, changes in the assignments of another corner, second-year Patriot Devin McCourty, have led to serious growing pains.

As a result, both players have taken steps back -- Asomugha because he's playing more zone and more often off receivers, and McCourty because Bill Belichick and Co. are varying his responsibilities and leaning harder on him with less help to his side."
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Old 10-14-2011   #315
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Default Re: Rookie CB a quick comparison - KJ vs Patrick Peterson and others

When I talked about McCourty during the off-season, I wasn't pulling things out of thin air.
I had watched all the Pats game last year.

When I talked about Asomugha as being a little overrarted by some, I did so by study his games as well.
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Old 10-14-2011   #316
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Default Re: Rookie CB a quick comparison - KJ vs Patrick Peterson and others

Great analysis!
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Old 10-14-2011   #317
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Default Re: Rookie CB a quick comparison - KJ vs Patrick Peterson and others

76, I admire your tenacity.

But when the crowd is quiet about KJax for 2 weeks, then they come out, mob like & attack the man because Drew Brees punked him on the same play, 3 times then burn him for a touchdown..

& we don't hear that same outrage when the same thing happens to a 7 year veteran, (with Jason Campbell at QB)... it's not worth arguing anymore. There's nothing you can do. Factor in that all 3, repetitive plays he allowed the WR to get out of bounds to stop the clock with less than 2 minutes in the half....... sheesh.......
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Old 10-14-2011   #318
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Default Re: Rookie CB a quick comparison - KJ vs Patrick Peterson and others

This thread is analyzing Peterson & McCourty, so it belongs in the NFL forum.
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Old 10-14-2011   #319
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76, I admire your tenacity.

But when the crowd is quite about KJax for 2 weeks, then they come out, mob like & attack the man because Drew Brees punked him on the same play, 3 times then burn him for a touchdown..

& we don't hear that same outrage when the same thing happens to a 7 year veteran, (with Jason Campbell at QB)... it's not worth arguing anymore. There's nothing you can do. Factor in that all 3, repetitive plays he allowed the WR to get out of bounds to stop the clock with less than 2 minutes in the half....... sheesh.......
Kjax was our first round pick. Allen was a street FA.

Both suck and that has been said plenty of times.

Kjax hasn't made the amount of big plays since hes been here that Allen has made in the past 5 quarters.

Allen atleast gets his hands on balls and causes turnovers in between getting abused. Kjax doesn't.

I think it is just your perception that Allen doesn't receive criticism because it is everywhere.
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Old 10-14-2011   #320
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Default Re: Rookie CB a quick comparison - KJ vs Patrick Peterson and others

Quote:
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Kjax was our first round pick. Allen was a street FA.
When we're arguing who is doing better, who has "earned" playing time, it doesn't matter.
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Both suck and that has been said plenty of times.
True.....
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Kjax hasn't made the amount of big plays since hes been here that Allen has made in the past 5 quarters.
Allen has had what 2 INTs in that time? KJac has had a forced fumble and 2 INTs since he's been here.
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Allen atleast gets his hands on balls and causes turnovers in between getting abused. Kjax doesn't.
That 4 yard tackle for a loss by Allen.... that was rare imo, you'd get a lot more of those with KJax on the field. That missed tackle that burned Allen for the touchdown, KJ would have played it the exact same way & it wouldn't have been a TD. We win the game... (actually it would have been the same, since KJ wouldn't have got the INT that led to the Dressen TD)......
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I think it is just your perception that Allen doesn't receive criticism because it is everywhere.
I know he receives criticism... I'm the one criticizing him. He doesn't get the level of criticism KJax gets. Not on this board, not on the Radio, & he should get worse... he's not going to get any better, you know that. There is no reason to believe KJ won't.
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