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Old 07-26-2011   #141
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
This free agent market is flooded, particularly at the CB position. I'm not sure which players will be the best bargains, only that the principles of supply and demand will ensure that some will be. We have never seen a market this loaded with young talent in the salary cap era. Here are some names for you:

Johnathan Joseph
Brent Grimes
Antonio Cromartie
Brandon Carr
Josh Wilson
Chris Carr
Richard Marshall
Kelly Jennings
Chris Houston
Eric Wright
Fabian Washington


and that list excludes the 30 and 31 year old FAs that will also be in market:

Drayton Florence
Carlos Rogers
Ike Taylor
Phillip Buchanan

I'm not saying that all those guys are great players. But, some are/will be very good and smart teams will have the opportunity to assess which ones will have the best value as the NFL moves through this truncated free agent process.


I realize this was a FA list, but I would have left him off the list on general principle......
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Old 07-26-2011   #142
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
Don't you ever get sick of watching the Texans sift through the bargain bin looking for "the best bargain" and trying to show the world how smart they are? After ten years of this haven't you figured out that the Texans aren't exactly good at this (Arian Foster's presence on the team notwithstanding)

Don't you understand the uniqueness of this free agent market? This is the best free agent market, by far, in over a decade. There are a dozen CBs in free agency that would improve most NFL secondaries, certainly ours. Furthermore, beyond the CB market, there are many good to great NFL players just entering into their prime that could be major assets to our football team.

In free agency, last year's 2nd best CB was Leigh Bodden. This year the 10th best FA CB is clearly better than Bodden and will likely be signed for less money than Bodden was last year.
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Old 07-26-2011   #143
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
This free agent market is flooded, particularly at the CB position. I'm not sure which players will be the best bargains, only that the principles of supply and demand will ensure that some will be. We have never seen a market this loaded with young talent in the salary cap era. Here are some names for you:

Johnathan Joseph: A clear number 2 and very good player. He will likel;y head back to Cincy though.
Brent Grimes: pretty good player, but not on the level of Aso
Antonio Cromartie: overrated.
Brandon Carr: solid, but unspectacular
Josh Wilson: more upside than Carr but not on the level of JJ or Aso
Chris Carr: pass
Richard Marshall: eh, is he really better than Allen?
Kelly Jennings: See Marshall
Chris Houston: see Marshall
Eric Wright: overated.
Fabian Washington: VERY overated


and that list excludes the 30 and 31 year old FAs that will also be in market:

Drayton Florence: bad for our system
Carlos Rogers: see Marshall
Ike Taylor: bad for our system
Phillip Buchanan: NO THANKS


I'm not saying that all those guys are great players. But, some are/will be very good and smart teams will have the opportunity to assess which ones will have the best value as the NFL moves through this truncated free agent process.
Strongly disagree. There are maybe 3 CBs who would be definitive upgrades. The rest are basically on the same level as Jason Allen and the others don't fit our scheme.
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Old 07-26-2011   #144
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
So a QB is worth breaking the bank for but the ability to take half the field away from that same QB is not worth it?

What if your secondary is absolutely terrible and you could go from the 30th secondary in the league to instantly an average secondary? This is the one player that you can probably add 3-5 wins to your total instantly. Seriously. Without any other changes to our defense last year, add Nnamdi and you are talking about a team that wins 9-11 games.

Mike
There's a reason why your secondary is absolutely terrible, and it ain't because you didn't have Aso in the backfield. You would swear from some of the reactions here that this guy is the sole reason why Oakland has been to the playoffs for the past eight years straight.



I'm not going to deny Aso's ability, but I've always been worried about buying into the hype of any player, especially at defensive back which is arguably the hardest position in football. Does he really shut down the field as well as people thinks he does? He's great, don't get me wrong, but there's a reason why nobody throws on the Raiders, and it's more to do with the fact that their run defense, in the words of Bart Scott, "can't stop a nosebleed."

A legitimate question for the Aso must-signers out there: How much do you think he's worth a year? And don't give me that "he's worth whatever it takes the win" bullplop. Man up and produce a number.
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Old 07-26-2011   #145
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

Richard Marshall is actually not a bad CB at all, it's just that the Panthers were terrible last year so people have a low opinion of him. But there is no way he is only asking for half. The only way we are getting a player who wants half of what Nnamdi wants is if we sign somebody that isn't in the same galaxy as him in terms of talent.
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Old 07-26-2011   #146
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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Originally Posted by Doppelganger View Post
Strongly disagree. There are maybe 3 CBs who would be definitive upgrades. The rest are basically on the same level as Jason Allen and the others don't fit our scheme.
a few things:

1. The CBs that "don't fit our scheme" still flood the market and drive down the price of the ones that "do fit".

2. Clearly, you have a high opinion of Jason Allen. However, you do realize that teams often have 3 or 4 CBs on the field at the same time? So, even if these guys are on his level, why wouldn't we want them as well?

3. Who cares if they are "over-rated"? If they are solid players that make the team better and the market determines that they can be signed for a discounted rate, I'm hardly concerned whether they are as good as ESPN analysts believe they are.
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Old 07-26-2011   #147
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
There's a difference. Offensively, the Texans can scheme in a way that ensures Andre will be involved in the game and have an opportunity to make a lot of plays.

An opposing team, on a passing down, will often have 5 eligible receivers running routes. Nnambi will only be covering one of those five. Good offenses can scheme and work an offense in a way that minimizes the impact Nnambi will make. After all, consider how bad the Raiders defense has been the past four years while Nnambi has been, dominant, healthy, and in his prime.
Actually the raider defense has been pretty damn awesome. Especially the secondary. The problem has been their front 7's ability to stop the run. Aso is worth every $$ they threw at him. I'm not saying we get him, but I fully support making a legit run at him.
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Old 07-26-2011   #148
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

BUT! McClain says there is pretty much no way in hell we sign Nnamdi...so there is a chance.
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Old 07-26-2011   #149
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
a few things:

1. The CBs that "don't fit our scheme" still flood the market and drive down the price of the ones that "do fit".
I doubt that the price is going to get driven down just because there are a lot of CB's on the market this year. Especially not driven down enough where we are getting a Richard Marshall (insert name of wanted CB here) for less than 5 or 6 million a year.
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Old 07-26-2011   #150
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
a few things:

1. The CBs that "don't fit our scheme" still flood the market and drive down the price of the ones that "do fit".

2. Clearly, you have a high opinion of Jason Allen. However, you do realize that teams often have 3 or 4 CBs on the field at the same time? So, even if these guys are on his level, why wouldn't we want them as well?

3. Who cares if they are "over-rated"? If they are solid players that make the team better and the market determines that they can be signed for a discounted rate, I'm hardly concerned whether they are as good as ESPN analysts believe they are.

1. CBs that don't fit the scheme are not ones we can actually use. So, while there may be 11 FA CBs , maybe only 6 are usable.

2. The CBs were pretty bad last year, but the main issue is that if you get a Aso or a Joseph, you cut off half the field. Now, the Safteys can cheat and help the other CB, help each other, and patrol the middle of the field. With Allen type players, they are not good enough to solo, so you need to keep a safety nearby, which opens up additional passing areas. One elite CB can significantly upgrade your D.

3. If they are overrated and basically on the level of Allen, why bring them in? Jackson was horrible, but got dramatically better as the season wore on. Allen was Allen. We have Brandon Harris as well. If the players we bring in are on the level of Allen, we may as well stick with our Allen and Jackson. At least Jackson has potentially more upside than some of the names you mentioned.
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Old 07-26-2011   #151
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
I doubt that the price is going to get driven down just because there are a lot of CB's on the market this year. Especially not driven down enough where we are getting a Richard Marshall (insert name of wanted CB here) for less than 5 or 6 million a year.
What makes you think we can get Nnamdi for $10-12 mil? He just walked away from $17 mil after making $15 mil for two years. $8-10 mil should get a quality CB with $5-7 mil getting a quality safety. Fact is none of us knows what Nnamdi wants, whether he knows he will need to take a pay cut or whether he expects a pay raise. In my book $17 mil is too much even for the best CB in the league.
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Old 07-26-2011   #152
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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What makes you think we can get Nnamdi for $10-12 mil? He just walked away from $17 mil after making $15 mil for two years. $8-10 mil should get a quality CB with $5-7 mil getting a quality safety.
Didn't Revis signed a 4-year $46m dollar deal with an $18m bonus somewhere? While Nnamdi did walk away from a $17m contract, it was also walking away from being a Raider which it looks like he's wanted to do for the last 2 or 3 years.
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Old 07-26-2011   #153
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Don't you understand the uniqueness of this free agent market? This is the best free agent market, by far, in over a decade. There are a dozen CBs in free agency that would improve most NFL secondaries, certainly ours. Furthermore, beyond the CB market, there are many good to great NFL players just entering into their prime that could be major assets to our football team.

In free agency, last year's 2nd best CB was Leigh Bodden. This year the 10th best FA CB is clearly better than Bodden and will likely be signed for less money than Bodden was last year.
Sure I understand it. I also understand that you have a wildly optimistic view of this group of free agent CB's. This is in keeping with your traditionally overly optimistic outlook on things like this. The 10th best CB this year isn't better than Bodden (it's embarrassing for you to even suggest it) and will be signed for less money because he's worth less money. Don't let reality get in the way of a good tale though. Trot out your list of better values and be happy with that if you like. I can't agree with you though.

Many good to great players will be available. That means of course that the Texans will have an almost unobstructed shot at getting as many ordinary-to-good players as they want! Doesn't the thought just make your skin tingle all over!
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Old 07-26-2011   #154
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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Actually the raider defense has been pretty damn awesome. Especially the secondary. The problem has been their front 7's ability to stop the run. Aso is worth every $$ they threw at him. I'm not saying we get him, but I fully support making a legit run at him.
That's clearly not true. Which, is my point. At some point, the money given to Asomugha would be too costly. It could mean Mario is not re-signed. It could mean that the team is not able to sign Abrayo Franklin and Eric Weddle. It could mean the team lets Foster walk in two years. This romanticism of a single free agent at the expense of all logic and reason baffles me.

How did the Haynesworth deal work out? How many of you were begging the Texans to spend money on him?

How about the 8 year 80 million given to Nate Clements... good player but that hasn't worked out too well for SF.

Even with the Patriots got into the elite FA market, it didn't go so well: Adalius Thomas flamed out after the Pats gave him $50 million over 7 years.

This is the NFL, not the NBA. One player doesn't make the difference (other than QB) between winners and losers. Almost all of the great FA signings the past 10 years have been bargain-hunting signings.

Charles Woodson- teams had soured on him after a few mediocre years in Oakland and GB got him at a discount.

Drew Brees- had a bad shoulder and the Saints got him at a discount

Mike Vick- Eagles got him at a major discount after his jail time.


I'm really struggling to think of any elite FA bidding war where the team that ended up with the player got value from him. Anyone? Surely, there is one or two examples but I honestly can't think of any.
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Old 07-26-2011   #155
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

This better not happen...

because if it does, I'll be getting neg rep for years...I'll probably get banned from cussing everyone who said it wouldn't happen out.
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Old 07-26-2011   #156
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
Didn't Revis signed a 4-year $46m dollar deal with an $18m bonus somewhere? While Nnamdi did walk away from a $17m contract, it was also walking away from being a Raider which it looks like he's wanted to do for the last 2 or 3 years.
I am not predicting Nnamdi will not take a Revis type deal. It is just an unknown. This is going to be his last contract most likely. Is he willing to take a pay cut to just over Revis money at about $12 mil per year for a longer term or will he want a pay raise and take a shorter contract? We just don't know.

And while AJ is a really nice guy and might be happy pulling in almost $10 mil per year if Nnamdi was making $12 I kind of doubt he would like being the best WR in the NFL and getting just over half if signing Nnamdi required $18 mil.
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Old 07-26-2011   #157
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
That's clearly not true. Which, is my point. At some point, the money given to Asomugha would be too costly. It could mean Mario is not re-signed. It could mean that the team is not able to sign Abrayo Franklin and Eric Weddle. It could mean the team lets Foster walk in two years. This romanticism of a single free agent at the expense of all logic and reason baffles me.

How did the Haynesworth deal work out? How many of you were begging the Texans to spend money on him?

How about the 8 year 80 million given to Nate Clements... good player but that hasn't worked out too well for SF.

Even with the Patriots got into the elite FA market, it didn't go so well: Adalius Thomas flamed out after the Pats gave him $50 million over 7 years.

This is the NFL, not the NBA. One player doesn't make the difference (other than QB) between winners and losers. Almost all of the great FA signings the past 10 years have been bargain-hunting signings.

Charles Woodson- teams had soured on him after a few mediocre years in Oakland and GB got him at a discount.

Drew Brees- had a bad shoulder and the Saints got him at a discount

Mike Vick- Eagles got him at a major discount after his jail time.


I'm really struggling to think of any elite FA bidding war where the team that ended up with the player got value from him. Anyone? Surely, there is one or two examples but I honestly can't think of any.
How did Peppers work out for Chicago? What about Samuel to the Eagles? Antonio Smith has been pretty good here (not on the same level as the previous two but it does hit close to home).

Not every big FA signing is a huge failure you goon and you know this dale.

C'mon man.
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Old 07-26-2011   #158
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

If we are going to spend FA money on a CB it needs to be Aso. The other FA CB's arent half as good, and will cost more than half as much.
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Old 07-26-2011   #159
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
I do not want them to outbid everyone for Nnambi! No way. We should avoid these sweepstakes and get a CB for half the money, that is 2 or 3 years younger, and not already preparing for his life after football!
and 2/3 his ability and health history. No thanks.
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Old 07-26-2011   #160
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Default Re: Nnambi and Houston

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
What makes you think we can get Nnamdi for $10-12 mil? He just walked away from $17 mil after making $15 mil for two years. $8-10 mil should get a quality CB with $5-7 mil getting a quality safety. Fact is none of us knows what Nnamdi wants, whether he knows he will need to take a pay cut or whether he expects a pay raise. In my book $17 mil is too much even for the best CB in the league.
Exactly!

All these people that say "we absolutely must sign NambDi" will be the very first ones out of the block that will say we overpaid him if we did.

I hope they do sign him. I want to hear the uproar from everyone when they hear what it would take to do it.
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