Kareem Jackson's plight.

[76Texan]

[Lucky]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

Based on this formation and also the fact that the announcer said "Troy Nolan beaten on the play".
We can tell that Nolan bit the run fake and vacated his two-deep zone.
That can be the only reason for the announcer to say so.

Another reason for the announcer to say that would be that Nolan was the closest Texan to Gaffney on the play. He's an announcer. Not the defensive coordinator. Nolan could have had man coverage on the TE, but dropped back when the TE stayed in to block. You nor I really know. Jackson was never playing underneath, but tried to run with Gaffney the entire play.

Your constant defense of Jackson is absurd. Kubiak, Smith, and Phillips have mentioned Kareem specifically as a player who must improve. He'll get another chance. If Jackson becomes a corner on a par with Revis and Asomugha (as you've alluded to), then great. No one is holding their breath while waiting for that to happen, however. And the Texans should bring in a top veteran CB, just in case Jackson "falls down" once again.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Lucky

Another reason for the announcer to say that would be that Nolan was the closest Texan to Gaffney on the play. He's an announcer. Not the defensive coordinator. Nolan could have had man coverage on the TE, but dropped back when the TE stayed in to block. You nor I really know. Jackson was never playing underneath, but tried to run with Gaffney the entire play.

I agree with this. Even if Nolan screwed up, it doesn't take a genius to see Nolan isn't on top... Kareem tried to run with Gaffney & didn't.

I understand the root cause of the failure may be that Nolan bit on the run fake. But with Kareem there & Gaffney running right by him... he waved his hand knowing that Jackson couldn't run with him. He was even with Kareem & knew he had him beat.

Originally Posted by Lucky

Your constant defense of Jackson is absurd. Kubiak, Smith, and Phillips have mentioned Kareem specifically as a player who must improve. He'll get another chance. If Jackson becomes a corner on a par with Revis and Asomugha (as you've alluded to), then great. No one is holding their breath while waiting for that to happen, however. And the Texans should bring in a top veteran CB, just in case Jackson "falls down" once again.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's absurd.

Just like Mario's first year, you had several people picking Mario's game apart, because sacks were few & far between. But if you watched Mario play, you knew he was everything we were told he was supposed to be. Just because he wasn't getting sacks had 0 to do with his talent & ability. He needed to learn a little bit more to play at this level & he needed some help.

I agree this play is not a good play to break down & say, "see the safety was out of position."

& just because the coaches are calling Kareem out is no different than them calling Mario out.

Kareem wasn't sold to us as a shut-down cover corner. That's not what he is, & may never be. Doesn't mean he won't be a very good corner in this league.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I agree with this. Even if Nolan screwed up, it doesn't take a genius to see Nolan isn't on top... Kareem tried to run with Gaffney & didn't.

I understand the root cause of the failure may be that Nolan bit on the run fake. But with Kareem there & Gaffney running right by him... he waved his hand knowing that Jackson couldn't run with him. He was even with Kareem & knew he had him beat.


I wouldn't necessarily say it's absurd.


I agree this play is not a good play to break down & say, "see the safety was out of position."

Coming out of a cover 2 shell and a 5-underneath look against a WR and a TE on that side, I definitely don't see man coverage from Nolan when he stayed that far away from the LOS.

Either the Texans stay with cover 2 or they can go with cover 4 on that side,
If the latter is the case, Jackson had the outside, Nolan had the inside.
It still remained Nolan's responsibility.

Notice that the bottom of the video, they also charged it to Nolan.
The video is by the NFL network, most likely from their weekly Replay format.

In the regular brodcast, the announcer didn't assign any responsibility to anybody. The commentator was ex-QB Steve Berluein, and he didn't have a specific comment either.

In the NFL Network Replay, those NFL guys had time to go through the game to do their analysis before they show the replay a few days after the actual game.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Lucky

Another reason for the announcer to say that would be that Nolan was the closest Texan to Gaffney on the play. He's an announcer. Not the defensive coordinator. Nolan could have had man coverage on the TE, but dropped back when the TE stayed in to block. You nor I really know. Jackson was never playing underneath, but tried to run with Gaffney the entire play.

Your constant defense of Jackson is absurd. Kubiak, Smith, and Phillips have mentioned Kareem specifically as a player who must improve. He'll get another chance. If Jackson becomes a corner on a par with Revis and Asomugha (as you've alluded to), then great. No one is holding their breath while waiting for that to happen, however. And the Texans should bring in a top veteran CB, just in case Jackson "falls down" once again.

Every rookie must improve. I never heard of any coaches saying otherwise.
It's absurd for anybody to think that a guy should stay the same as his rookie year.

I never hint to Jackson's becoming a great CB; I only repeat what his coach said and what Rex Ryan said.
My opinion has alwyas remained the same.
I see Jackson as a solid, all-around CB.
I don't know how far he can take his game to; I never make any prediction for Jackson so please stop with that non-sense, thank you!

[Rey]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

What are you talking about.
The guy running with Gage was Wilson.
Dunta was standing around near the down marker.
He was at most 9 yards from the LOS.

Looking at this stuff on my phone.

But I don't see how that helps you. Doesnt even look like he was supposed to be in that play. Looks like be had some kind of shallow zone.

You are making huge assumptions about these plays and I think your narration has been for the most part wrong.

You think you know where players are supposed to be and what they are supposed to be doing, but defensive coaches call all kinds of combinations of plays.

Defense involves a lot of guessing. You want to anticipate what the offense is going to do and you may leave yourself vulnerable in one area to try and make yourself stronger somewhere else.

So even if you are looking at the coverage and it doesn't make sense to you, we dont know what the coordinator was thinking right there. Like if there is only short yardage to go (which appears to be the case on the dunta play) you might play your corners in the flats to take passes to that area away. You are gambling that the offense is going to take a short throw.

It's lime you seem to think that anytime a ball is thrown there should be a safety and a corner both in position on the wr. Safeties have other things to do besides back up corners. A corners job is tough because they are asked to be out on an island by themselves so often. That's why good corners are so valuable.

You still have failed to address the simple point that I have mentioned: even if there is supposed to be safety help, too often Kareem is not even within playmaking distance of his man.

So that means that even if the safety is in position to help him it's still a one on one opportunity for the receiver. Kareem got left behind too often.

What exactly did Kareem do to make the safeties better and make it harder for passes to be completed?

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Rey

Looking at this stuff on my phone.

But I don't see how that helps you. Doesnt even look like he was supposed to be in that play. Looks like be had some kind of shallow zone.

You are making huge assumptions about these plays and I think your narration has been for the most part wrong.

You think you know where players are supposed to be and what they are supposed to be doing, but defensive coaches call all kinds of combinations of plays.

Defense involves a lot of guessing. You want to anticipate what the offense is going to do and you may leave yourself vulnerable in one area to try and make yourself stronger somewhere else.

So even if you are looking at the coverage and it doesn't make sense to you, we dont know what the coordinator was thinking right there. Like if there is only short yardage to go (which appears to be the case on the dunta play) you might play your corners in the flats to take passes to that area away. You are gambling that the offense is going to take a short throw.

It's lime you seem to think that anytime a ball is thrown there should be a safety and a corner both in position on the wr. Safeties have other things to do besides back up corners. A corners job is tough because they are asked to be out on an island by themselves so often. That's why good corners are so valuable.

You still have failed to address the simple point that I have mentioned: even if there is supposed to be safety help, too often Kareem is not even within playmaking distance of his man.

So that means that even if the safety is in position to help him it's still a one on one opportunity for the receiver. Kareem got left behind too often.

What exactly did Kareem do to make the safeties better and make it harder for passes to be completed

I really do appreciate your detailed response.

I understand and can see where you're coming from.

All we can do is to take a look of each seperate play and try to guess as to what the defense was trying to do. (But that goes for both you and I, and everybody else.)

At the end of the day, everything lies on the shoulder of CB.

I will find time respond to the bolded part, on a play by play basis soon as I can.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Rey

What exactly did Kareem do to make the safeties better and make it harder for passes to be completed?

Actually, I had provided many of those answers, but it seems that you missed them.

A few are as followed:

1. On the Steve Smith play, it was an outside release, so basically, the CB is on his own.
Kareem jammed the receiver and turned to run with him.
Smith put a hand on Jackson's helmet to push him away (we both know that it was offensive PI.)
Kareem continued to follow the receiver and made the tackle.
What else do you think he can do?

2. On the Galloway's play, the ball was caught on the hashmarks.
If there was a safety in the middle, that play can never happen (but the Texans played with 10 men onthe field.)
Galloway knew that if he ran straight for the ball, Jackson would be right there to put a hit on him so he ran a little bit to the inside and leaped up to the outside and make the catch over his outsie shoulder.
Kareem was in striking distance to the receiver.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Rey

What exactly did Kareem do to make the safeties better and make it harder for passes to be completed?

The R. Williams play was an illegal forward pass as the Center crossed the LOS to block Diles before the pass was thrown.

Kareem jammed Williams on an inside release (that's help to the safety).
He lost the battle due to an illegal maneuver by Williams.
Sure, he needs to learn to overcome all these nasty tactics by receivers, but it wasn't like he didn't try.
Due to his own tactics, Williams had to slow down a tad and needed to reach back to make the catch (that ought to buy the safety some more time.)
Jackson stumbled due to Williams' tactics but he never gave up on the play.

On a one-receiver route like this, Wilson has got to be able to come over to somehow at least slow down the receiver a little.
If he was able to do that, Jackson would have been able to come back and help make the play.

That pass should have gone for at most a 20-yd gain.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

Actually, I had provided many of those answers, but it seems that you missed them.

A few are as followed:

1. On the Steve Smith play, it was an outside release, so basically, the CB is on his own.
Kareem jammed the receiver and turned to run with him.
Smith put a hand on Jackson's helmet to push him away (we both know that it was offensive PI.)
Kareem continued to follow the receiver and made the tackle.
What else do you think he can do?

2. On the Galloway's play, the ball was caught on the hashmarks.
If there was a safety in the middle, that play can never happen (but the Texans played with 10 men onthe field.)
Galloway knew that if he ran straight for the ball, Jackson would be right there to put a hit on him so he ran a little bit to the inside and leaped up to the outside and make the catch over his outsie shoulder.
Kareem was in striking distance to the receiver.

Receivers and db's tussle and hand fight all the time. Again, Kareem is going to have to start winning more of those battles.

Hopefully he will learn how to combat some of that stuff with more experience.

And I'm not saying Kareem was never in play making distance. What I'm saying is that too often he wasn't.

Kareem gave up a lot of big plays.

I think when you are defending Kareem you are going against peoples views of what they expect from a first round corner.

You don't expect them to look as bad as often as Kareem did. Pointing out that others made mistakes around him doesnt change that fact.

Even if we concede that some of the plays where he looked bad were primarily someone else's fault, he still has a lot of other bad plays.

[76Texan]

On the Gaffney's catch, again, the pass was caught on the hashmarks.

Kubiak said that they were in quarter (cover 4); I just remember having it in my notes from his presser.
A pass on the hashmarks is the responsibility of the inside man (Nolan).
That's right through the heart of his zone.

[Rey]

Even the Galloway play shows some of his limitations. He was not fast enough. Ok you say we were shorthanded, but does that mean we can never blitz a safety? Can he never be in one on one coverage?

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Rey

Even if we concede that some of the plays where he looked bad were primarily someone else's fault, he still has a lot of other bad plays.

That is exactly why I want to go over them on a play by play basis.
I haven't gotten through all of them yet.

I never said he didn't have bad moments.
In fact, I did say that!

And even some time ago, when another poster (before Lucky) brought up the other TD to Arijotutu (a 28-yarder, I believe), I admitted right away that it was all Jackson's.

On the 55-yarder, I did say that Jackson wasn't able to squeeze the route because he had to make a baseball turn from the shuffle. It was still on him despite the fact that he wasn't helped by the technique.
If Wade doesn't change how he wants his CBs to play, we will never see the shuffle again.

[The Pencil Neck]

Originally Posted by Rey

Even the Galloway play shows some of his limitations. He was fast enough. Ok you say we were shorthanded, but does that mean we can never blitz a safety? Can he never be in one on one coverage?

If you blitz a safety, the coverage is different and hopefully you get some pressure on the QB.

On that particular play, we were playing with 10 men on the field. KJ was expecting the safety to be in the right place but there wasn't a safety at all. He did his assignment and then got blamed for something totally out of his control.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Rey

Even the Galloway play shows some of his limitations. He was not fast enough. Ok you say we were shorthanded, but does that mean we can never blitz a safety? Can he never be in one on one coverage?

He was simply fooled by a veteran receiver who knows exactly where the ball was going; Jackson still wanted to make the play.
If he wanted to go for the PI like Hayden over Walter, he could have done that easily.

No, he didn't make the play, but again, it wasn't like he wasn't there and wasn't trying.

A CB gets beat by a good throw and good catch quite often, wouldn't you say?

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck

If you blitz a safety, the coverage is different and hopefully you get some pressure on the QB.

On that particular play, we were playing with 10 men on the field. KJ was expecting the safety to be in the right place but there wasn't a safety at all. He did his assignment and then got blamed for something totally out of his control.

I agree.
With a safety blitz, more often than not, we can see the CB work to turn the receiver toward the side line.
The coverage most likely will be different.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck

If you blitz a safety, the coverage is different and hopefully you get some pressure on the QB.

On that particular play, we were playing with 10 men on the field. KJ was expecting the safety to be in the right place but there wasn't a safety at all. He did his assignment and then got blamed for something totally out of his control.

None of that matters.

He was in one one on one coverage and he got beat.

The safety doesn't have to be blitzing he could be doubling up on someone else. No extra pressure but you're still expecting Jackson to be able to man up on his assignment.

Look people around you are going to screw up. That's not a reason for you to get beat.

Either a reciever is beating multiple people, one person, or he was left wide open. Jackson was the only one holding the receiver he got beat. He didnt have help for one reason or another. And be got beat.

If I'm to believe 76 that Jackson can see where his safeties are during the play then I fully expect for him to know whether or not the safety that is supposed to be giving help is on the field pre-snap.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Rey

None of that matters.

He was in one one on one coverage and he got beat.

The safety doesn't have to be blitzing he could be doubling up on someone else. No extra pressure but you're still expecting Jackson to be able to man up on his assignment.

Look people around you are going to screw up. That's not a reason for you to get beat.

Either a reciever is beating multiple people, one person, or he was left wide open. Jackson was the only one holding the receiver he got beat. He didnt have help for one reason or another. And be got beat.

If I'm to believe 76 that Jackson can see where his safeties are during the play then I fully expect for him to know whether or not the safety that is supposed to be giving help is on the field pre-snap.

It was another one-receiver route.
If there was a safety, he can only be doubling up with Jackson.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

He was simply fooled by a veteran receiver who knows exactly where the ball was going; Jackson still wanted to make the play.
If he wanted to go for the PI like Hayden over Walter, he could have done that easily.

No, he didn't make the play, but again, it wasn't like he wasn't there and wasn't trying.

A CB gets beat by a good throw and good catch quite often, wouldn't you say?

Yes I agree. Which is why I can give him the leeway of having been a rookie corner.

But even for a rookie corner he looked bad overall. of course he did some good things. Of course he wasnt helped by the overall lack of talent in the secondary and on the defense period.

But there are quite a few instances where you can flat out see him getting beat, outrun, or getting bullied by bigger receivers.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Rey

You are making huge assumptions about these plays and I think your narration has been for the most part wrong.

You think you know where players are supposed to be and what they are supposed to be doing, but defensive coaches call all kinds of combinations of plays.

Defense involves a lot of guessing. You want to anticipate what the offense is going to do and you may leave yourself vulnerable in one area to try and make yourself stronger somewhere else.

So even if you are looking at the coverage and it doesn't make sense to you, we dont know what the coordinator was thinking right there. Like if there is only short yardage to go (which appears to be the case on the dunta play) you might play your corners in the flats to take passes to that area away. You are gambling that the offense is going to take a short throw.

This goes both ways. You're saying it looks like Dunta was supposed to be in a short zone & that makes sense.

At the same time, 76 tells us what he thinks the Corner & the safety is supposed to be doing.

His takes are just as viable.