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Old 08-11-2005   #41
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We dissagree a bit...but I understand your side. I can agree with you on the fact that winning is indeed fragile. There are franchises like Detroit that has never seen a Super Bowl. Come to think of it, in the 30 or so years of pro football here...we haven't either.

On Buffalo, I think that one of the big failings in the Buffalo game was the fact that we kept stopping the clock with incompletions and interceptions because we didn't have any other offense to get into except a passing offense. If you can run the ball and keep the clock running you won't give up that many points on defense...the other team doesn't have the time. I'll buy your point that some of our failings had nothing to do with the offense, but I think this scheme has some major holes in it and it just doesn't hold up well. Every team in the NFL uses some variance of it....so I don't think the scheme is all bad...I just don't think you can build a team around it and play winning football when the weather gets bad and when you get into the playoffs and only face top defenses for the most part.

good stuff.
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Old 08-11-2005   #42
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Bring back:

Earl Campbell
Kenny Burroughs 00
Dave Casper

And we're set!

Now that I think about it...just bring back Earl.
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Old 08-11-2005   #43
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the basic advantage of the run and shoot was to make the defense think you were going to pass all the time, and thereby get some easy yards running occasionally. Also, a lot of motion was used to help identify the defense. As I recall, some of the routes were determined after the ball was snapped, determined by the positioning of the defense.

eventually the oilers run and shoot suffered as teams learned to give a little more cushion on the line to the recievers and not worry about a few short completed passes. Let them complete the short stuff and just punish them with a big hit. After a few hits, receivers started dropping balls, or were carried off the field.

the oilers recievers were just too fragile to take the pounding that was ultimately unleashed upon them.
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Old 08-11-2005   #44
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I liked jefferies, but i didnt think he was all that amazing. From what I remember seeing, he was much like Tory Holt or Isaac Bruce in that he seemed to be afraid of contact and I always remember him going down rather easy and never going over the middle.
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Old 08-12-2005   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markbeth
alright here is why they lost the 3 most meaningfull games they had.

against denver haywood droped a first down pass with a little over two minutes remaining. in buffalo the defense gave up 35 points in the second half. and against kc by the end of the game there were 10 starters not in the game due to injury. 3 of them were on the offensive line.

in my opinion these were things that the offense could not control.

i dont think people realize who fragile winning is. a droped ball here or a missed block there. could be the difference. i believe if those games were each played 10 times the "titians" win the majority of those games. and people would have a totally diff opinion of that offense.

history is writen by the victors.

at least you changed my opinion a little about givins.
You stated it perfectly "Winning is fragile". It takes events like the "immaculate reception" to win a championship sometimes. Plus in football unlike basketball and baseball, you have one game. You either win that game or your season is over. That means if a player gets sick, is sore, or any of a thousand things the outcome might change depending on the day.

The Denver game.....Elways drive....4th and long....it was the Oiler defense that failed us not the RnS. And if Jeffries doesn't drop that ball 1st down.

The "made me cry, Buffalo come back" game. The officiating was horrible. There were several huge blown calls that would have given the Oilers the game. (I may sound like a poor loser but even NFL FILMs special on that comeback points out how the Officials made a few bad calls that changed the outcome of the game.)

For those 4 years or so the RnS offense was very very successful.
Keep in mind it is even a BETTER offensive system if Average players can execute it with great success. (even thought I firmly believe those guys were far far from average.)

Keep in mind there are a TON of teams that have never won championships playing traditional offenses.
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Old 08-12-2005   #46
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You guys hit on some good points, however that offense was VERY exciting! I loved watching every minute they were on the field. They had that certain something. If we could have only played the Cowgirls in the Superbowl, rather that the Bills that year, I know we would have won. I just bought a bunch of Oilers footage (about the last 30 years of highlights) and that was totally exciting football. I think we forget how great it was after the sour taste left in our mouths after Bud's BS. The funny thing is that KS "Bud" Adams stillhas luv ya blue and Oilers Carpet in his private elevatorat his Oil and Gas Company. All I am hearing is about the offense, which was so much more exciting than what we have seen from the Texans so far. I have been a season ticket holder since 02 and will be as long as I live in Houston, but Dom Capers and Palmer's Offense puts me to sleep. In my honest opinion, that offense will never get us to the promise land. I wouldn't normally say that, but I live, breath and sleep Houston Sports and I am a realist. What we forget to mention about those glory years with the Oilers was the defense. Remember the hard hitting corners and safteys we had. I loved to see Donaldson and Dishman crack someones melon after they got a pass over the middle and Big Ray sacking the QB and switching position and still kicking *****. We had a hell of a D, but they were on the field too much to make a constant stand. Like many have said, there were many varibles that held us out of the Superbowl. There is not a doubt in my mind that that we didn't have the team capable....because we did. So we didn't get to the promise land....so what! That is the kind of stuff that makes us TRUE FANS! There are so many fair weather fans in this town. I have been amazed at all the support the Texans have had. I only hope that continues. Sorry, I went and watched the Astros win and was told to sit down with a 3/2 pitch in the 7th...not a good move by anyone. I don't care what the lead is. Ok, my soapbox is over. Kick *** this season Texans and make us Proud!
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Old 08-12-2005   #47
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Just some random thoughts about all of this:

1) No tight end and they still had WAY fewer sacks.

2) Moon saw every receiver. (Had more time too for one thing.)

3) No Superbowl is true, but how many NFL teams have ever tried to run the RnS long enough to win a Superbowl? To my knowledge, the Oilers were it. Maybe it hasn't been tried enough.

4) 46 Defense. LOVED IT! Wound up hating the DC, though. Who hits a fellow coach in front of thousands and cameras.

5) 46 Defense. Dunta. Buchannon? Nah, not ready for that...
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Old 08-12-2005   #48
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OK, lol, was it called a 46? 52? 46 sounds like 10 men in the box and a lone safety, lol. Wasn't the 3-4 or the 4-3 and it sure wasn't a nickel or dime package.

By the way, the way I remember it, they got away from it in the second half of that Buffalo game and that's part of why they blew that huge lead. The prevent D strikes again! I remember reading or hearing somewhere that players were on the sidelines begging that DC to go back to the aggressive D, but he wouldn't do it. I don't know if "super moron", or anything else I can come up, with defines it.

Random dumb question: How does your team practice when it has an RnS offense and a 46? defense? Maybe that's why they didn't make it all the way.

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Old 08-12-2005   #49
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Haywood Jeffries was a poor man's Keyshawn. He had size and pretty good hands but really no breakaway speed.
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Old 08-12-2005   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HJam72
3) No Superbowl is true, but how many NFL teams have ever tried to run the RnS long enough to win a Superbowl? To my knowledge, the Oilers were it. Maybe it hasn't been tried enough.
Detroit tried to run it for a little while. I could be wrong but I believe Atlanta also tried their hand at it.

In college as most of us know...the University of Houston destroyed teams with it.
1988 averaged 39.5 points per game
1989 averaged 53.5 points per game
1990 averaged 46.4 points per game

But alas....eventually defenses learned to scheme against it and it became less effective. But it was hardly a Gimmicky offense. It was just a nontraditional pass centric offense.

Bottomline:
- The Oilers won a lot of games with the Run N Shoot.
- They made the playoffs pretty much every year, so we had a shot at the title.
- It was exciting to watch.

What more could a fan ask for?
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Old 08-12-2005   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHarley
You guys hit on some good points, however that offense was VERY exciting! I loved watching every minute they were on the field. They had that certain something. If we could have only played the Cowgirls in the Superbowl, rather that the Bills that year, I know we would have won. I just bought a bunch of Oilers footage (about the last 30 years of highlights) and that was totally exciting football. I think we forget how great it was after the sour taste left in our mouths after Bud's BS. The funny thing is that KS "Bud" Adams stillhas luv ya blue and Oilers Carpet in his private elevatorat his Oil and Gas Company. All I am hearing is about the offense, which was so much more exciting than what we have seen from the Texans so far. I have been a season ticket holder since 02 and will be as long as I live in Houston, but Dom Capers and Palmer's Offense puts me to sleep. In my honest opinion, that offense will never get us to the promise land. I wouldn't normally say that, but I live, breath and sleep Houston Sports and I am a realist. What we forget to mention about those glory years with the Oilers was the defense. Remember the hard hitting corners and safteys we had. I loved to see Donaldson and Dishman crack someones melon after they got a pass over the middle and Big Ray sacking the QB and switching position and still kicking *****. We had a hell of a D, but they were on the field too much to make a constant stand. Like many have said, there were many varibles that held us out of the Superbowl. There is not a doubt in my mind that that we didn't have the team capable....because we did. So we didn't get to the promise land....so what! That is the kind of stuff that makes us TRUE FANS! There are so many fair weather fans in this town. I have been amazed at all the support the Texans have had. I only hope that continues. Sorry, I went and watched the Astros win and was told to sit down with a 3/2 pitch in the 7th...not a good move by anyone. I don't care what the lead is. Ok, my soapbox is over. Kick *** this season Texans and make us Proud!
Where did you buy old Oilers footage??
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Old 08-12-2005   #52
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Haywood Jeffires was great. That whole crew was great. I'd take those guys over the Texans current group.
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Old 08-14-2005   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear
Two names:

Mike Munchak
Bruce Mathews
Until injuries took their toll, Dean Steinkuhler was considered - talent wise - right their with M & M. The Oilers certainly invested valuable draft picks in their OL.
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