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Old 03-13-2010   #41
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Originally Posted by awtysst View Post
I saw this on a mock recently and I want to hear yall's opinion:
What if Joe Haden, Earl Thomas, and Kyle Wilson are all there at 20. Probably would never happen, but who would you take?
Thomas
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Old 03-13-2010   #42
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
Lance had Daniel Jeremiah, of "Move The Sticks" on The Draft Show last week & how is this for nightmare scenero -



there could be a run on CB's just before the Texans select, both Earl Thomas & Ryan Matthews are off the board -



http://www.movethesticks.com/

who would you select now?

could Trent Williams still be available? & if so how tempting?
I take 1A.T.Williams or 1B.Weatherspoon and dont look back.
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Old 03-13-2010   #43
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan View Post
What don't have an offer to trade down? What pick do you make?
I figured I would get this question. If I absolutely had to make a pick and could not trade down, I go Pouncey. He would start immediately over Myers and would allow Wade to slide into the OG spot. Remember Wade is a lighter OG so having a big strong Center like Pouncey would help him out. With Brown and Winston locked into the 2 tackle spots and Wade and Caldwell seemingly as the two OGs, Pouncey would make the most sense here. Its a bit of a reach, but he is the highest rated player I have left on the board in a position of need.
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Old 03-13-2010   #44
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
just look @ what DeMarcus Ware, TROY or Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie TENNESSEE STATE have accomplished.
Troy isn't in a BCS conference. But, they're Division 1 or FBS or what they're calling it today. Tennessee State is 1-AA or FCS.

The Texans have put themselves into a spot where they need 3 contributors, if not starters, from this draft. A RB, a CB, and a DT. A Center or a FS would be nice. But, not at the risk of not finding players at the need positions. So a rookie CB will need to step in and play a lot. Possibly start. So taking a Division II player with a high selection (top 3 rounds) is a luxury pick. Teams that are still building or teams that don't need immidiate help can make a pick like that on potential. The Texans did just that in the 2008 draft with Antwaun Molden.

I'm not going to criticize Smithiak for the Molden pick. They were looking down the road a couple of years, when Dunta Robinson would no longer be around. Had things went swell with Molden, the Texans wouldn't have to find immidiate help in this draft. But, Molden didn't develop and here they are. Without Robinson. Without a vet FA CB. With a big hole at CB. They just can't afford to spend a pick on a developmental player. If they expect to contend for the playoffs. Make that "get into the playoffs". It's the wrong time and the wrong place to be drafting on potential. The time is now.
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Old 03-13-2010   #45
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Originally Posted by awtysst View Post

I really disagree with this statement. Lets take a look at the Texans DBs:

Quinn: 6'0, 203lbs
McCain: 5'9, 179lbs
Reeves: 5'11, 188lbs
Parson: 5'10, 192lbs
Bennet:6'1, 200lbs
Moulden:6'1, 202lbs

Haden: 5'11, 193lbs

Haden is bigger than McCain and Parsons. He is the same height and is a few lbs heavier than Reeves. He is 1 inch shorter and 10lbs lighter than Quinn. He is 2 inches shorter and 7 and 9 lbs lighter than Bennett and Moulden respectively.

Haden really is not significantly shorter than the Texans CBs. He is basically the same size. 1 or 2 inches is not a huge difference, especially when he has shown he can cover a 6'4 receiver. As you said Haden's game film shows his football speed is fine and he has the speed tackling ability etc to shine in the NFL.
Now let's go back and take a look at where each of those CBs were drafted. Dunta Robinson was a first round pick and he ran well. If Haden runs better, he will move up in the draft, but teams aren't just racing to add 5'10 CBs with average speed.
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Old 03-13-2010   #46
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

I'm not saying Joe Haden isn't a good player, but what is it that has made everyone believe that he is one of the best players in the draft and that it is crazy to think that he could drop? Is it just because we all get conditioned to believe a player has a certain ranking because McShay/Kiper put their ratings out so early?

Malcolm Jenkins fell to 14, despite having a much higher grade at CB, because he ran in the mid 4.5 range. He was 2 inches taller than Hayden and 10 pounds heavier. He also had to cover more man-to-man than Haden. There are a bunch of CBs who have fallen after running poorly in the 40:

DJ Moore, Vandy
Reggie Smith, Oklahoma
Brandon Browner - Oregon State
Brandon Flowers - V.Tech
AJ Davis - NC State
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Old 03-13-2010   #47
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Troy isn't in a BCS conference. But, they're Division 1 or FBS or what they're calling it today. Tennessee State is 1-AA or FCS.

The Texans have put themselves into a spot where they need 3 contributors, if not starters, from this draft. A RB, a CB, and a DT. A Center or a FS would be nice. But, not at the risk of not finding players at the need positions. So a rookie CB will need to step in and play a lot. Possibly start. So taking a Division II player with a high selection (top 3 rounds) is a luxury pick. Teams that are still building or teams that don't need immidiate help can make a pick like that on potential. The Texans did just that in the 2008 draft with Antwaun Molden.

I'm not going to criticize Smithiak for the Molden pick. They were looking down the road a couple of years, when Dunta Robinson would no longer be around. Had things went swell with Molden, the Texans wouldn't have to find immidiate help in this draft. But, Molden didn't develop and here they are. Without Robinson. Without a vet FA CB. With a big hole at CB. They just can't afford to spend a pick on a developmental player. If they expect to contend for the playoffs. Make that "get into the playoffs". It's the wrong time and the wrong place to be drafting on potential. The time is now.
The Molden thing is frustrating because it is not even a bust because he just didn't work out, we literally don't know because he has not stayed healthy. The texans might not need a corner, but who knows?

As to your overall comment, I am not sure that I want my team consistently passing on better long-term talent. If there are two guys and one is thought to be an B plus player and the other a B minus player, but the B minus can get to that level this year then for now it sounds great. But a couple years out when we are ok at that position, but passed on the B plus guy, who is now clearly better, are we going to remember why?

My other thought is that we really don't know how any of these rookies will really react. For the fuss people made over Barwin as a project, was there a rookie DE who rushed the passer better than he did? On the other side of the coin, given his conference and playing time was there anyone more ready to step in than Caldwell, yet he could not clearly bet out an undersized journeyman.
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Old 03-13-2010   #48
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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As to your overall comment, I am not sure that I want my team consistently passing on better long-term talent. If there are two guys and one is thought to be an B plus player and the other a B minus player, but the B minus can get to that level this year then for now it sounds great. But a couple years out when we are ok at that position, but passed on the B plus guy, who is now clearly better, are we going to remember why?
I want to throw in my take on this. Winning answers all. If the Texans are winners, then no one will care that the passed on a guy, if the player actually drafted is a solid contributor.
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Old 03-13-2010   #49
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Originally Posted by LZ View Post
Now let's go back and take a look at where each of those CBs were drafted. Dunta Robinson was a first round pick and he ran well. If Haden runs better, he will move up in the draft, but teams aren't just racing to add 5'10 CBs with average speed.
LZ,
My point to the board is simply do not judge the man on his height. He is not a "short" CB and the Texans have taken players at his height and weight before. I mean, we are not talking about a 5'5 CB, we are talking about a guy that is 5'11. Height wise he is fine.

If people want to talk about his skill level, fine. If people want to talk about his lack of ability, that's a worthwhile discussion. I just wanted to set the record straight that he is just fine in terms of size.
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Old 03-13-2010   #50
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Originally Posted by awtysst View Post
I saw this on a mock recently and I want to hear yall's opinion:
What if Joe Haden, Earl Thomas, and Kyle Wilson are all there at 20. Probably would never happen, but who would you take?
OK after consideration I think you would have to take Thomas in this scenario. The gap between Thomas and the next safety is huge while there would be plenty of CB in the 2nd. McCourty, Jackson, Robinson...

Here is another question. What if when the Texans pick came up Thomas, Dan Williams, Wilson, Matthews, and Brian Price were available, who do you pick?
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Old 03-13-2010   #51
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Originally Posted by rmartin65 View Post
I want to throw in my take on this. Winning answers all. If the Texans are winners, then no one will care that the passed on a guy, if the player actually drafted is a solid contributor.
But that's always the "answer." the texans can draft 8 busts this year, but win and no one will care. T

the question is whether continually thinking short term and taking a lesser guy because of so-called needs is a better strategy than taking the guy who is a better long-term talent.
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Old 03-13-2010   #52
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Originally Posted by JB View Post
OK after consideration I think you would have to take Thomas in this scenario. The gap between Thomas and the next safety is huge while there would be plenty of CB in the 2nd. McCourty, Jackson, Robinson...

Here is another question. What if when the Texans pick came up Thomas, Dan Williams, Wilson, Matthews, and Brian Price were available, who do you pick?
I agree with your take on my situation. We could grab Brandon Ghee in the second and pair him with Thomas. If we took a CB, we would have to look at a safety like Reshad Jones or Morgan Burnett in the second or Major Wright in the 3rd or fourth. I think Thomas-Ghee is a better duo.

To answer your scenario I go with the BPA and in my mind that is still Thomas. I think there are better values at DT and Price and Williams do not wow me. I am usually against a 1st round RB becuase of the risk level. So again we come down to CB vs S and I use the previous logic to grab the awesome FS over the very good CB.
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Old 03-13-2010   #53
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

Very good response and I agree with your reasoning. I am not sure if the Texans are needing a true NT or a solid penetrating 1 gap DT. I am thinking that Kollar would like to fine a DT that will disrupt an OL with a high motor more than a 2 gap run stopper.

Best value would seem to me to be Thomas again.
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Old 03-13-2010   #54
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

When I saw Ryan Matthews on youtube and he jumped over the pile from the 3 yard line, I quickly recalled the Jville and AZ. game. So I'm considering it. To be honest though, when I saw the clips I got this LT feeling about him. I'm not sold on him but there's some good stuff there.
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Old 03-14-2010   #55
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Originally Posted by Hoth-Boy View Post
Passing on Haden to take Matthews...no thanks.
I'm would take Mathews over Haden. IMO Haden is over rated by the draft gurus. And a RB will have a bigger impact on our team. IMO there is a group of solid CBs available in the 2nd and 3rd
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Old 03-15-2010   #56
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Everyone looks good on a youtube video. The guy looks like a man among boys. What would he look like versus SEC or Big 12 competition? That's what's so difficult to ascertain.

The Texans took a smaller college prospect a couple of drafts ago. I'd hope they would go with a more proven player that has competed against the best college has to offer. This guy is likely a long term project and the Texans need to see results now.
Who's to say they don't draft a more proven CB is the first two round and take this guy in the 3rd or 4th to groom as a FS behind Wilson?
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Old 03-15-2010   #57
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Who's to say they don't draft a more proven CB is the first two round and take this guy in the 3rd or 4th to groom as a FS behind Wilson?
I could see this happening.

There will be come combination of DT,CB,RB and S in the 1st 4 rds. IMHO

Hopefully it will be Rd.1 Thomas Rd.2 Hardesty Rd.3 Best CB Spievey
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Old 03-18-2010   #58
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan View Post
Joe Haden Joe Haden Joe Haden!!!!

Would you pass on Darrelle Revis because of his size? Now if they don't think Haden could be successful in this system, them I'm fine with not drafting him. I just value a potential shutdown CB higher than a RB in this system. But his size is fine. Same as Revis, Bigger than Dunta, same as Reeves, same height as Quin but 11 lbs lighter (based on nfl.com / cbs draft info), roughly the same size as Champ Bailey. I mean he's what, 5'11 and 194 lbs?

Take Haden and then reach for Ben Tate in the 2nd and we be good. Matthews may be THE running back (Chris Johnson for illustrative purposes) of this years draft.... but I take Jonathan Stewart in the 2nd as a consolation prize when I draft Darrelle Revis in the 1st!!
Just me, but with Cushing and Ryans and Pollard, I don't think that having your corner hold the edge is as important as it use to be with this club. Our linebackers have the speed to chase down anyone in the league.
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Old 03-18-2010   #59
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

I don't care if our CB hold the edge, I want a corner who will break up passes and get some turnovers.

After all is that not their job?
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Old 03-18-2010   #60
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Default Re: Lance Zierlein - Mock Draft Version 3

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Who's to say they don't draft a more proven CB is the first two round and take this guy in the 3rd or 4th to groom as a FS behind Wilson?
That wasn't the conversation we were having.

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
Take a physical freak like Akwasi Owusu-Ansah in 2nd...
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