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Old 04-14-2009   #21
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Starts and completion %? I guess Football Outsiders would have been in love with Danny Wuerrful.

Stafford has started 32 games, gone 14-6 in the SEC as a starter, and was undefeated in bowl games. The only way Stafford drops to #15 in the actual draft is if he is filmed clubbing baby seals. Wait...the Raiders would still take Matt at #7 and deal Jamarcus Russell. Matt Stafford is the number 1 pick in this draft. Granted, it's a weak draft. But he is the #1 pick.
I think he has HUGE bust potential, but I agree with you. The lions are not known for making smart football moves. If they were smart they would have signed Jeff Garcia, draft Aaron Curry or one of the two top OTs with the first pick, then do the opposite with the second 1st rounder. From then on they could go BPA and really rebuild their team. Then next year when there are good QBs available (such as Colt McCoy, Sam Bradford, Zac Robinson, Jevan Snead, etc). This is not a good year for getting a QB. Both Stafford and Sanchez look like they have BUST written all over them.
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Old 04-14-2009   #22
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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Originally Posted by awtysst View Post
... Both Stafford and Sanchez look like they have BUST written all over them....
Well, that is something for our well-paid scouting staff and F.O. to decide. Since IMO Schaub does not have the "IT" factor of the Major QB's of the last 20 years, I doubt that he can get us to and win the Super Bowl. If our staff believes Stafford has the tools and the demeanor to make a last minute drive to win the game as in the most recent Super Bowl with the Steelers then they would be remiss in their duty to pass him up. Of course, if they don't believe that way then trade away or pick someone else.

Captain Obvious says some 1st round QB's work out and some don't. What makes the difference are intangibles.
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Old 04-14-2009   #23
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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Well, that is something for our well-paid scouting staff and F.O. to decide. Since IMO Schaub does not have the "IT" factor of the Major QB's of the last 20 years, I doubt that he can get us to and win the Super Bowl. If our staff believes Stafford has the tools and the demeanor to make a last minute drive to win the game as in the most recent Super Bowl with the Steelers then they would be remiss in their duty to pass him up. Of course, if they don't believe that way then trade away or pick someone else.

Captain Obvious says some 1st round QB's work out and some don't. What makes the difference are intangibles.
I disagree with your basic assumptions.

I disagree that it takes some special QB to get to the Super Bowl and I disagree that Matt Schaub isn't good enough to get us to the Super Bowl.

If Matt can stay healthy, he's one of the better QB's in the league right now and he's in an offense that will allow him to flourish.

A lot of non-great QB's have made it to the Super Bowl. At least one non-great QB is considered great because his team took him to multiple Super Bowl victories. QB's frequently get credit for victories that's undeserved. Football is a team sport and there's a lot to be said for being the right guy at the right time in the right place.
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Old 04-14-2009   #24
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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Originally Posted by krocket View Post
Well, that is something for our well-paid scouting staff and F.O. to decide. Since IMO Schaub does not have the "IT" factor of the Major QB's of the last 20 years, I doubt that he can get us to and win the Super Bowl. If our staff believes Stafford has the tools and the demeanor to make a last minute drive to win the game as in the most recent Super Bowl with the Steelers then they would be remiss in their duty to pass him up. Of course, if they don't believe that way then trade away or pick someone else.

Captain Obvious says some 1st round QB's work out and some don't. What makes the difference are intangibles.
Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl. He had the "IT" factor of the major QB's of the last 20 years?

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I disagree with your basic assumptions.

I disagree that it takes some special QB to get to the Super Bowl and I disagree that Matt Schaub isn't good enough to get us to the Super Bowl.

If Matt can stay healthy, he's one of the better QB's in the league right now and he's in an offense that will allow him to flourish.

A lot of non-great QB's have made it to the Super Bowl. At least one non-great QB is considered great because his team took him to multiple Super Bowl victories. QB's frequently get credit for victories that's undeserved. Football is a team sport and there's a lot to be said for being the right guy at the right time in the right place.
What he said.
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Old 04-14-2009   #25
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

Of course you are free to disagree, but I still believe I am right. Schaub has performed well between the 20's when he wasn't hurt, but he is not very good at taking it into the end-zone from inside the the 10 or coming from behind in the last two minutes. And there have been multiple QB's that have had those qualities over the last few years.

Team sport is correct, but the one person that can make a difference is the QB. Brady, Favre, Montanna, Young, Aikman, Elway, Marino, Bradshaw, Namath, and Staubach and the list goes on all had those qualities and they were all winners! There are teams that have won without a marquee QB, but they are few and far between. Eli Manning comes to mind immediately.

I just don't see Schaub falling into the HOF QB category.
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Old 04-14-2009   #26
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

NFL Draft:
1. Detroit Lions: OT Jason Smith, Baylor
2. St. Louis Rams: OT Eugene Monroe, Virginia
3. Kansas City Chiefs: LB Aaron Curry, Wake Forest
4. Seattle Seahawks: NT B.J. Raji, Boston College
5. Cleveland Browns: OLB Brian Orakpo, Texas
6. Cincinnati Bengals: OT Michael Oher, Ole Miss
7. Oakland Raiders: WR Michael Crabtree, Texas Tech
8. Jacksonville Jaguars: WR Jeremy Maclin, Missouri
9. Green Bay Packers: OLB Everette Brown, Florida State
10. San Francisco 49ers: QB Mark Sanchez, Southern California
11. Buffalo Bills: DE Aaron Maybin, Penn State
12. Denver Broncos: LB Rey Maualuga, Southern California
13. Washington Redskins: OT Andre Smith, Alabama
14. New Orleans Saints: S Malcolm Jenkins, Ohio State
15. Houston Texans: Chuck Norris


I think Norris has the ability to play every snap for both the offense and the defense and represents great value at #15. His #1 attribute is his defense. He would have the uncanny ability to pressure the QB without even rushing him. On offense, I believe we could line him up as a BB (Blocking Back) where he would line up like a FB/RB but his primary responsibility would be to protect Schaub.
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Old 04-14-2009   #27
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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Of course you are free to disagree, but I still believe I am right. Schaub has performed well between the 20's when he wasn't hurt, but he is not very good at taking it into the end-zone from inside the the 10 or coming from behind in the last two minutes. And there have been multiple QB's that have had those qualities over the last few years.

Team sport is correct, but the one person that can make a difference is the QB. Brady, Favre, Montanna, Young, Aikman, Elway, Marino, Bradshaw, Namath, and Staubach and the list goes on all had those qualities and they were all winners! There are teams that have won without a marquee QB, but they are few and far between. Eli Manning comes to mind immediately.

I just don't see Schaub falling into the HOF QB category.
Schaub has been clutch in the last two minutes. There have been several games where he's done what he needed to do to get us the score we needed at the end of games. Not that we've necessarily won all those games but you can't fault Schaub for the Jags loss last year. He did his part.

And you can take several of those HOFers that you've got there and if you go back, they weren't considered all that good the first couple of years of their careers OR they had serious issues. Bradshaw was crap until later in his career; he was lucky to be on one of the greatest teams ever. Staubach almost didn't keep his job. Marino was a great QB but he never won a SB. Namath had losing records his first couple of years and has a losing record over his career. Aikman won his SB's but statistically, he wasn't that great a QB. He never put up big numbers. He was on a great team.

If you look at guys that have made it to the Super Bowl, then you've got guys like Kerry Collins, Chris Chandelier, Steve McNair, Rich Gannon, Rex Grossman, Craig Morton, Joe Kapp, Drew Bledsoe, etc. Not exactly a murderers row.

I stand by my case that you don't have to be a great QB to get to the SB.
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Old 04-14-2009   #28
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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Originally Posted by krocket View Post
Of course you are free to disagree, but I still believe I am right. Schaub has performed well between the 20's when he wasn't hurt, but he is not very good at taking it into the end-zone from inside the the 10 or coming from behind in the last two minutes. And there have been multiple QB's that have had those qualities over the last few years.

Team sport is correct, but the one person that can make a difference is the QB. Brady, Favre, Montanna, Young, Aikman, Elway, Marino, Bradshaw, Namath, and Staubach and the list goes on all had those qualities and they were all winners! There are teams that have won without a marquee QB, but they are few and far between. Eli Manning comes to mind immediately.

I just don't see Schaub falling into the HOF QB category.
Please name one game where Schaub failed to bring his team from behind in the last two minutes of a game. Schaub has never failed to erase a one-score deficit (or break a tie) in the last two minutes when he's had the chance with the Texans. (OK, there is one: against Indy in 2007, Schaub got the ball back with 13 seconds deep in our end trailing by 6.)

In his 20 starts, Schaub has notched no less than 4 long drives in the last two minutes to tie a game or take the lead: Miami in 2007 (to win), at Jax in 2008 (to force OT), Miami in 2008 (to win) and Green Bay in 2008 (to win). Each of those four drives started inside our own 20. In fact, there have only been two times in Schaub's Texan career--besides the Indy game noted above--where he got the ball within one score of the lead anytime in the fourth quarter and failed to bring the Texans to the tying/go-ahead score--first was at Cleveland in 2007 when we were down 17-10 and the second was Miami this past season down 21-20. On the other 10 or so drives where he got the ball in the fourth within a score of tying/leading, he got the points every single time.

Needless to say, I wouldn't take Stafford at #15. In this mock, I'd go Cushing/Matthews if the tests are indeed clean (the team will have this information) or Wells if they are not.
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Old 04-14-2009   #29
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

William Moore is my pick here, and hopefully will be on draft day
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Old 04-14-2009   #30
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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Originally Posted by Hooston Texan View Post
In fact, there have only been two times in Schaub's Texan career--besides the Indy game noted above--where he got the ball within one score of the lead anytime in the fourth quarter and failed to bring the Texans to the tying/go-ahead score--first was at Cleveland in 2007 when we were down 17-10 and the second was Miami this past season down 21-20.
I'm pretty sure Matt Schuab won that Miami game in 2008. As a matter of fact, I just watched that game thanks to NFL Replay, and I credit that come from behind win to Matt Schaub.
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Old 04-14-2009   #31
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl. He had the "IT" factor of the major QB's of the last 20 years?



What he said.
guys guys, if he thinks that Schaub doesn't have what it takes than he is in titled to his own opinion... wait... no hes not!!!!! Rex Grossman took the bears to the Super Bowl! since when that guy showed consistency in a season let alone his career?

i think a lot is to be said when it comes to intangibles for the QB position. Im not saying that you need all of them but you need a fairly well stocked arsenal if you are going to be successful at this level. Schaub has great accuracy, poise, consistency and smarts. Stafford has the big arm, better deep ball accuracy, in my opinion, than we've ever seen come out of college, poise, and consistency. the lions may make bad decisions on a regular basis but even they can see how a Stafford/ Calvin Johnson duo could shape up.
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Old 04-14-2009   #32
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
I disagree with your basic assumptions.

I disagree that it takes some special QB to get to the Super Bowl and I disagree that Matt Schaub isn't good enough to get us to the Super Bowl.

If Matt can stay healthy, he's one of the better QB's in the league right now and he's in an offense that will allow him to flourish.

A lot of non-great QB's have made it to the Super Bowl. At least one non-great QB is considered great because his team took him to multiple Super Bowl victories. QB's frequently get credit for victories that's undeserved. Football is a team sport and there's a lot to be said for being the right guy at the right time in the right place.
Difference is a great defense carried crap QBs to Super Bowls. The Texans aren't a defensive team and never will be. Offense will be what wins the Texans any gold, with adequate defense holding on just enough to get the win.

If you're an offensive team, you need the star QB. I couldn't tell you if Schaub or Stafford are that guy but game managers don't take offensive powerhouses to the promised land
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Old 04-15-2009   #33
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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Difference is a great defense carried crap QBs to Super Bowls. The Texans aren't a defensive team and never will be. Offense will be what wins the Texans any gold, with adequate defense holding on just enough to get the win.

If you're an offensive team, you need the star QB. I couldn't tell you if Schaub or Stafford are that guy but game managers don't take offensive powerhouses to the promised land
Defense has carried SOME crap QB's to Super Bowls. Many offensive powerhouses never make it to the promised land. Dan Fouts? Offensive powerhouse, no SB appearance. Warren Moon and the Oilers? No SB. The Vikings with Billick/Dungy? No SB.

Your best chance at winning a Super Bowl is having a good team. And it really helps to have a top 10 defense. It's not necessary, but it definitely helps.

But the main points are:
1. Just because you have a great QB, that doesn't mean you're ever going to make it to a SB.
2. Just because you have an average QB, that doesn't mean you're doomed to not make it to the SB or that you won't win it when you get there.

So, is Schaub good enough to get us to a SB? If the rest of the team is good enough, yes. Right now, our defense wasn't good enough and Schaub/Rosenfels didn't play well enough. Hopefully, Schaub will continue to grow and learn.
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Old 04-15-2009   #34
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

I'll admit...I'm no fan of Stafford, Sanchez, or Freeman and the reason I believe they came out this year is because they can't compete in the ranks of McCoy, Bradford, and Teabow. Stafford played behind a horrible offensive line but he had decent weapons around him so I wouldn't be suprised if the Lions drafted him and sat him on the bench like Aaron Rodgers in order to learn the playbook.

Defense wins championships, the Bears went to the Super Bowl with Rex Grossman and a good D, however, I agree that the Texans well always be a better O then a D.
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Old 04-15-2009   #35
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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William Moore is my pick here, and hopefully will be on draft day
At 15!? That is crazy. He will be there in the 2nd no problem.
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Old 04-15-2009   #36
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

1.) Trade down with Stafford.
2.) Clay Matthews III / Brian Cushing
3.) Knowshon Moreno
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Old 04-15-2009   #37
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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Please name one game where Schaub failed to bring his team from behind in the last two minutes of a game.....
Okay, I concede that point. Please believe that I am not condemning Schaub or lionizing Stafford. As I said in my post that is the responsibility of the Texan management. I was merely pointing out my views of the #15 pick. I don't know if Stafford is one of the HOF QB's or not, but I am pretty much convinced that Schaub won't be one either.

I would caution you guys of taking one or two specific cases and making a generality out of them. I think few people would disagree with the statement that the QB is the most important of the skill positions and the skill positions are the most important position on the team. IMO that is pretty accepted theory in the NFL.

I would very much like to see our Defense pumped up to that of a SB quality defense. I am not sure that can happen in the next few years, but one can hope. I wanted us to get Fat Albert, but I don't think he was worth $100 million to us, we are too far away.

Last years playoffs convinced me that a good defense can beat a good offense most of the time.
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Old 04-15-2009   #38
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

Has to be Stafford for trade bait or as an excellent back up. We are worried about depth elsewhere so why not QB if he is there? I'd focus on trade though. What would a QB cost at #15? On a similar thread earlier I had chosen Vontae Davis CB. Many think he will be a problem for coaches. I'm thinking Jenkins now as he actually may be there. Unlike most in a trade down I'd go Robert Ayers DE.
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Old 04-15-2009   #39
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
Has to be Stafford for trade bait or as an excellent back up. We are worried about depth elsewhere so why not QB if he is there? I'd focus on trade though. What would a QB cost at #15? On a similar thread earlier I had chosen Vontae Davis CB. Many think he will be a problem for coaches. I'm thinking Jenkins now as he actually may be there. Unlike most in a trade down I'd go Robert Ayers DE.
Too much to be a backup.

If you take a QB in the first then you are announcing that he is the future.

You simply cannot pay that much money to a backup player. One of them would have to go.

Just look to the Browns if you want to see how this would end.
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Old 04-15-2009   #40
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Default Re: Who would you pick at 15 in this mock?

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I almost wish we needed a TE, Pettigrew is going to be a great pro TE.
That would give us alot of wiggle room with OD. Butler or A. Smith do the same with Dunta.
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