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Old 10-07-2008   #41
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Default Re: Tuesday I woke up and realized that I was looking at progress.

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
Sunday was what it was. "They were who we thought they were" so to speak and now after a long day of thought about what happened and what's been happening I'm going to tell all of you what I think (and if you're not interested the back button on your browser works like it always has).

I've seen this before. I recognize what's happening here. I've seen it happen in the past when the previous Houston NFL team was trying to pull it's collective ass out of a near decade long losing binge. In that game the part of Sage Rosenfels was played by one Ian Howfield and the "meltdown" was the far more common case of a kicker losing a game that his team had fought hard to win. It was bad and kind of made you sick but it didn't hold a candle to the clinic in stupidity that Sage put on Sunday. It was however the same kind of game.

When the Oilers were somewhere between bad and respectable these kinds of games were commonplace. You would see the team go on the road, not show up, and get the snot beat out of them 4-5 times a year just like the Texans did in Pittsburgh. Instead of Schaub throwing interceptions in batches it was Moon doing it but the Oilers lost quite a few games just like we saw the Texans lose in Tennessee a few weeks ago. Long drives ending in turnovers were frustratingly common for most of Jerry Glanville's early reign as coach of the Oilers. Prior to that from 1981 to 1985 you had Ed Biles, Chuck Studley, and Hugh Campbell and all together they won something like 12 games in 4 and a half years. Think of them as the Dom Capers regime was to the Texans. They were all going nowhere fast.

Then Glanville made a little progress and the Oilers started winning at home on a pretty consistent basis. They were 5-11 for two years (one of which he split with Hugh Campbell) but then went 9-7, 10-6, and 9-7. That was just a bit over .500 but winning nonetheless. The thing was they never looked consistently good during those three years. Yes, they were winning but no, they weren't even close to the real "elite" teams of the era. They were capable of going out and destroying somebody one week and then rolling over for a bad opponent the next.

The Texans make me think of those Oilers with the way they played last year and the way this season is starting out. The real clincher was that game Sunday. That was my Déjà vu moment. Sage had that same look on his face that Howfield had and I don't mean to draw a big comparison between the two. I just want to point out that the entire team played that game to win it right up until one man screwed up big enough to lose it. When that happened you saw the Texans just fold up much like the old Oilers would when adversity came calling. Back then they weren't good enough or confident enough to ovecome something like that and you could probably argue that those Moon era Oilers never did get to that level. Right up until the end Moon could throw a few picks and the entire team would just fold up their tents and go home. Jerry Glanville didn’t have the coaching skill necessary to get the Oilers past that point. Jack Pardee didn’t have it either. If Jeff Fisher had arrived sooner then maybe we’d have seen a Super Bowl out of that bunch or maybe we wouldn’t have. Nobody will ever know the answer to that and it’s really not important at this stage of the game. Today we need to know if Gary Kubiak can get the team beyond that point. I don’t care if Sage Rosenfels can bounce back from this. I don’t care anything about him at all. As far as I’m concerned Sage is dead to me because he put himself before the team. All I care about now is whether or not the coaches can get the team to take another step up.

The loss to Indy represented a bit of progress to me (albeit an ugly one). The Texans will finish around .500 on the season this year. Now I know this to be true. They’ll win most of their games at home and steal a couple on the road and be 8-8 again or maybe 9-7. They’re making progress and one more draft should give them the talent they need to be as effective as any team in our conference. I really mean that too. The only question is can these coaches do anything with that talent. One guy losing one game doesn’t change that.

Sage Rosenfels fumbled the ball, fumbled the ball, and then threw the interception that sealed the loss. This one was all on him and nobody can deny that. The next time some imbecile tells you that Sage should be starting resist the urge to punch the fool in the mouth. You’d be right of course but it’s not worth the jail time. Sage killed that win just as effectively as if he’d missed a chip shot FG on the last play of the game and I think that it’s entirely appropriate to lay every single ounce of blame for this loss on his shoulders. I also think that it’s doing an injustice to the rest of the team to go off on some rambling tirade about how they’re cursed or how the head coach should be fired. One man alone did this by playing sloppy, undisciplined football. Sage wasn’t trying to win the game. The game was won. Sage wasn’t trying to help the team. The team (with Sage being a part of it) had beaten the Colts handily all day long up until that point. Sage was trying to win the starting QB spot. Sage was trying to help himself.
I agree with what you're saying, but we still ended up with a loss at the end of the day. That is one that really hurts. If we had one, we would be tied with the Colts right now with a 1-3 record.
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Old 10-07-2008   #42
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Default Re: Tuesday I woke up and realized that I was looking at progress.

It was progress, as progress has been achieved every game this season so far. Things have moved on, different units have performed, and football has gotten better.

I think a lot of people had their hopes set on a Colt victory (myself included), and the manner in which we lost really sucked, but that doesn't mean that the franchise is going backwards, although it may mean that fans want big success a little too quickly?

I'm guilty of it, as many of the other posters here may be, but looking at it, I don't think we're in a worse position than any of the past few years, and despite the 0-4, I don't think that either this season, or next season should be scrubbed off totally just yet.
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Old 10-07-2008   #43
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Default Re: Tuesday I woke up and realized that I was looking at progress.

It's just gutwrenching to take 0-4 when we could easily be 2-2 and in second place, but the improvement is definitely there.
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Old 10-07-2008   #44
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Default Re: Tuesday I woke up and realized that I was looking at progress.

I know it sounds crazy...but I keep thinking about the 12-4 record of the former Houston pro team after one particular epic meltdown.

Teams can and do rebound after adversity. And most fans feel that this team is better than their 0-4 record, at least judging by the last two weeks. These same guys bounced back after Ike to compete in Jax within a couple of weeks, and face it, we were actually BEATING Indy on Sunday until Sage imploded.

So my point is, in some crazy way, I still have some hope for this season. IF they can dust themselves off from the last loss and focus on the next game, maybe...just maybe...we can still see some 'magic' this season. Crazier things have happened in the NFL.
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Old 10-07-2008   #45
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Default Re: Tuesday I woke up and realized that I was looking at progress.

Anyone else see that tonight's NFL Replay was the Texans vs Colts game? I guess they are showing it because it shows how to blow a 17 point lead in 4 mins
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Old 10-07-2008   #46
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Default Re: Tuesday I woke up and realized that I was looking at progress.

What is the difference between losing these 4 games up front or losing them throughout the season? You can't be 10-6 without losing 6.

Our schedule become very manageable down the stretch. We just have to go and take care of Miami.

If we lose to Miami then we can start talking draft picks.
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Old 10-07-2008   #47
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Default Re: Tuesday I woke up and realized that I was looking at progress.

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Looking at it 48 hours later, I think this line is what it all comes down to at the end of the day (not to chop your entire post down to one line, but this point is the key to it all, IMO).

I was bit vocal about questioning Kubiak's call in my emotional disappointment. But after the smoke cleared, it is evident to me that all that matters is that the player failed to take care of his responsibilities. Nobody else screwed up on that play except for Sage. A coach should not call plays expecting a colossal failure.
I actually thought that Kubiak called the perfect play. In fact, I had called the bootleg after the last run because it was obvious to me that the left side of the field would be relatively open like it was on the previous two plays.
You have pretty much the same view from your seat as I do from mine, but I guess we just saw it differently.

I was actually in mid scream, telling my buddy Jay "I told, I told you!" when Sage and Karma decided that I needed a lesson in humility.
I don't know if y'all saw it or not, but Sage looked up at me in the middle of his mid air spin and mouthed the phrase "Pride cometh before the fall Big Mike, pride cometh before the fall..." then he reared back his head, gave an evil laugh, looked me in the eye once more and then just flipped the ball from his fingertips...


...that's the way I remember it.
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Old 10-07-2008   #48
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Default Re: Tuesday I woke up and realized that I was looking at progress.

This is a very good post. Some thoughts....

The way we all learn is not through someone just telling you stuff. You learn by doing. By succeeding and failing. Learning through experience can be painful, but it sticks with you better than book learning.

The Texans have a team that is young. And really hasn't played together as a group much. Look at the different units of the team. The best working parts are the ones that have been working together the most. Some teams close better because they have experience in closing.

Just from playing sports, I know that a team with lesser talent but more experience playing together can usually beat a team with greater talent who aren't used to each other as teammates. And that when your best players also have good amounts of experience (not too young or old), you have a better chance.

This seems rather self-evident. But it is easy to lose sight of with a team that basically has been reshaped from 2005.

I recently talked to one of post-2005 incoming coaches about the biggest challenges with taking over the Texans. He said the first problem was that it was evident that they had no idea how to properly prepare for an NFL season. The "how to prepare like a pro" phrase that you hear Kubiak say a lot.

He believes that they are on track with that. The harder thing to do get a team to learn how to win. To get the sensible confidence that good teams have. Obviously they aren't on track with that, but I do think we've seen continued progress with wins, even with injuries that would challenge many teams. This last game is part of that learning experience. That hopefully, they take the good from it, and that they don't get a sense of a "there we go again" when the inevitable bad stuff happens in every NFL game.
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Old 10-07-2008   #49
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Default Re: Tuesday I woke up and realized that I was looking at progress.

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
This is a very good post. Some thoughts....

The way we all learn is not through someone just telling you stuff. You learn by doing. By succeeding and failing. Learning through experience can be painful, but it sticks with you better than book learning.

The Texans have a team that is young. And really hasn't played together as a group much. Look at the different units of the team. The best working parts are the ones that have been working together the most. Some teams close better because they have experience in closing.

Just from playing sports, I know that a team with lesser talent but more experience playing together can usually beat a team with greater talent who aren't used to each other as teammates. And that when your best players also have good amounts of experience (not too young or old), you have a better chance.

This seems rather self-evident. But it is easy to lose sight of with a team that basically has been reshaped from 2005.

I recently talked to one of post-2005 incoming coaches about the biggest challenges with taking over the Texans. He said the first problem was that it was evident that they had no idea how to properly prepare for an NFL season. The "how to prepare like a pro" phrase that you hear Kubiak say a lot.

He believes that they are on track with that. The harder thing to do get a team to learn how to win. To get the sensible confidence that good teams have. Obviously they aren't on track with that, but I do think we've seen continued progress with wins, even with injuries that would challenge many teams. This last game is part of that learning experience. That hopefully, they take the good from it, and that they don't get a sense of a "there we go again" when the inevitable bad stuff happens in every NFL game.
Ever think Dunta should take up coaching some day?
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Old 10-08-2008   #50
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Default Re: Tuesday I woke up and realized that I was looking at progress.

Good post Herv but I disagree with the part about the Texans coming out at the end of the season with an 8-8 or 9-7 record. You have to be counting on Schaub to do what he hasn't shown that he can do yet. Start 11 straight games for us and play good enough to win 8 of the next 11 games. He has been inconsistant at best. I like Schaub and I was for the trade when we did it. But facts are facts and that means Schaub will have to step up and play consistantly good football over a long stretch. I hope he does.
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Old 10-08-2008   #51
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Default Re: Tuesday I woke up and realized that I was looking at progress.

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
Sage Rosenfels fumbled the ball, fumbled the ball, and then threw the interception that sealed the loss. This one was all on him and nobody can deny that. The next time some imbecile tells you that Sage should be starting resist the urge to punch the fool in the mouth. You’d be right of course but it’s not worth the jail time. Sage killed that win just as effectively as if he’d missed a chip shot FG on the last play of the game and I think that it’s entirely appropriate to lay every single ounce of blame for this loss on his shoulders. I also think that it’s doing an injustice to the rest of the team to go off on some rambling tirade about how they’re cursed or how the head coach should be fired. One man alone did this by playing sloppy, undisciplined football. Sage wasn’t trying to win the game. The game was won. Sage wasn’t trying to help the team. The team (with Sage being a part of it) had beaten the Colts handily all day long up until that point. Sage was trying to win the starting QB spot. Sage was trying to help himself.
Normally I ignore silly, self-aggrandizing posts like this, your weekly pronouncements, some things you think you think, but this is too darn much.

Yes, Sage blew the game. However, Sage also won the game before he blew it. To suggest, even hint, that you know his motive for doing the cartwheel thing is dumb beyond all reason. As dumb, in fact, as the cartwheel thing.

Would we have been in a position to when with Schaub playing? I got no idea and neither do you. Would Schaub not have fumbled on that or some other key play? No idea. Would the Texans have won? No way to know.

It is what it is. A couple of unfortunate plays and a loss. Twas ever thus.
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Old 10-08-2008   #52
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Default Re: Tuesday I woke up and realized that I was looking at progress.

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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post

I was actually in mid scream, telling my buddy Jay "I told, I told you!" when Sage and Karma decided that I needed a lesson in humility.
I don't know if y'all saw it or not, but Sage looked up at me in the middle of his mid air spin and mouthed the phrase "Pride cometh before the fall Big Mike, pride cometh before the fall..." then he reared back his head, gave an evil laugh, looked me in the eye once more and then just flipped the ball from his fingertips...


...that's the way I remember it.
LMFAO!!!



In all seriousness, It's tough to go 0-4 knowing you could be 3-1 if not for "dumb" mistakes, because the reality is that most everyone knows that the repetitive nature of making dumb mistakes is what brings a 3-1 team to an 0-4 record. Sage is just the latest whipping boy, and prolly the biggest, after seeing victory snatched from the jaws...

The first fumble can't be put on but one set of shoulders and he's already shouldered that burden at the press conference after the game. I HATE the outcome of that play. HATE HATE HATE. However, he makes that first down and it's GAME OVER, and Sage is the new Mayor of Houston. I believe it to be a product of desire and determination. The same desire and determination that in baseball a runner gets thrown out trying stretch a double into a triple. The same desire and determination that in basketball a player is caught charging the lane trying to go hard to the hoop. The same desire and determination that we saw in the olympics where athletes fail to hit their mark in the "spirit of competition"... not personal Gain! I HATE the outcome, and can't argue with there being a better alternative(hook slide; punt), but I hate to see him turned into a Villian because of desire and determination.

Other than that, Sage isn't a goat, but rather a victim of circumstance.

I hope that weeks to come, we can all look a back a bit differently at this game than we fittingly do today.
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Old 10-08-2008   #53
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Default Re: Tuesday I woke up and realized that I was looking at progress.

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I hope that weeks to come, we can all look a back a bit differently at this game than we fittingly do today.
I think people will look back and see Sage as a gigantic choker. There is nothing else to really second guess. He had three turnovers within a matter of minutes that cost us the game. It's as simple as that.
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