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Old 04-02-2005   #1
texan279
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Default Carr a lesson for future franchise QBs

Sorry didnt know this was posted already...
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David Carr has 140 reminders of what it is like to be a franchise quarterback in development.

That's how many times he has been dumped, whacked and run over in his first three NFL seasons -- and we are talking only sacks here, not all the other occasions in which his body has been involuntarily grounded by gleeful adversaries. He has more unpleasant memories, too -- just 16 wins and forgotten plays and boos from Texans fans no longer patient with his maturation process.

Over the past three years, no NFL quarterback has been sacked as often as Houston's David Carr.

You want to know what the 49ers face if they use the draft's first pick on Aaron Rodgers of California or Alex Smith of Utah? Ask David Carr, the first player selected in the 2002 draft. The 49ers should -- and so should any club facing such a draft decision. Carr would provide a road map incredible in detail and educational value.

Better to talk to him than rely on history for guidance. For every Akili Smith, you have a Donovan McNabb. For every Heath Shuler, you have a Michael Vick. For every Tim Couch, you have a John Elway.

"History tells us nothing," says Ravens coach Brian Billick, "other than picking a quarterback that high has no predictors, nothing that can save you from making a mistake. But getting a quarterback is so important to a franchise that you can't ignore the opportunity."

The only thing we know for sure is this: Select a quarterback among the first six choices, and he immediately becomes the face and potential savior of the team as its franchise player and the next candidate to wind up in one of two groups, the Ryan Leaf flops or the Peyton Manning successes.

Carr still occupies middle earth; he hasn't made it onto either list yet. His bosses are convinced he'll become everything they envisioned, a star capable of winning playoff games. But so far, he has given us only glimpses. Last season, he reached highs in quarterback rating (83.5), touchdown/interception ratio (16/14) and passing yards (3,531), yet the Texans again finished below .500 because they couldn't beat the dreadful Browns in the season finale. Carr is preparing now for what could be the pivotal year of his career, the season that could show us whether he will be joining Manning or Leaf.
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Old 04-02-2005   #2
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I think against the browns we had a momentary lapse of contentment, and under estimation. I think we went into that game with the feeling that this was a gimme.

We were so quick to forget in '03 that we were that Browns team against the dolphins. They referred to our opening day game against them as a prcatice.

What did we do to them we out fough that team for a win the same that the browns did to us.

If Carr has the time in the pocket he can destroy other teams defenses. Our line needs to give him that time.
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Old 04-02-2005   #3
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Am i the only one slightly bothered by his comment about midway through 2002 he was thinking "this aint for me" ??

I know thats being totally illogical of me.. I mean.. with the kind of beating he took.. no man in their first year on a job wouldnt be thinking that after a couple months.

But I dunno.. I guess I always saw him as indifferent to it. I figured he loved the game and was a tough guy.. breaking the record in sacks was just a step towards the superbowl for him. That is asking a bit much of him though.

*shrug*.. I guess we will see what happens.. I noticed him getting a bit jittery last season too.. and it bothers me as well. Is this something permenant? has he been broken? Will an improved Oline allow him to show his potential or will he always see shadows now? It definatly worries me.

I would hate to think that we ruined the next Brett Favre.
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Old 04-02-2005   #4
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I think he will be ok when he has time.

There were games where he held onto the ball for a long time. i.e Minnesota
He wasnt just all about throwin to AJ either.
He found Gaffney a number of times, as well as Armstrong. I think he covets AJ too much at times though because he seems to break double teams late in his routes, so he kind of waits on that.

Also we always seem to try an all or nothing pass on one of our opening drives. That should be saved a lil later after Carr and the offense have gotten into a rhythum then we will see more success there as well.
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Old 04-02-2005   #5
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The owner has said we will protect Carr, but no actions taken so far give any indication of that being accomplished. I think there is good reason to believe Carr has been damaged by the unrelenting attacks. Remember, the concussions Young suffered. You just can't take the hits forever. The body grows older and recovers more slowly. I'm sorry, but I think the Texans have wasted a lot of money on David, because they have never intended to use his talents in a way that made sense. I don't think David is the kind of guy who will question the coaching staff. He's probably a yes man. Carr will probably never be more than a mediocre QB as long as he plays for Houston. The same is true of AJ. I know he made the pro bowl, but he is being under utilized by the Texans. He is a receiver and a go to man. But Capers is a defensive coach and offense seems to be something you have to put up with. Offense never wins games in his eyes. He appears to be very uncomfortible with the offensive side of the game and that's one of the reasons I believe he needs to move on. Vinny says Palmer is calling the blocking assignments. If that's the case Vinny, then Palmer has some additional strikes against him. I will repeat, I'm sorry, but if Cass is going to continue to pick the best player available at the time of the draft, then he needs to get a coach that can utilize the talent being provided, not destroy it. I should qualify that by saying any offensive talent being provided by Cass.
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Old 04-02-2005   #6
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I disagree, I think Carr, AJ, and any other player in our offense has the opportunity to become a star, even in Capers' gameplan. If you look at teams like the Steelers, the Patriots, and the Eagles; teams who in recent years were feared for their defense, they DO have stars on offense. They may be unsung heroes like Hines Ward, or big name guys who get starring roles in soup commercials like McNabb. In my mind, our offense has had trouble maturing due to the lack of experience at the most influential position (QB), and the consistent failure of our OL to give the offense a chance to succeed. If our OL can gel this season, I think Carr will lead this team to alot more wins, and his supporting cast will get a chance to show their stuff. You don't have to be Peyton Manning to be considered a successful player on offense. You don't need 5,000 yards and 50 TD's, you need the one touchdown pass that moves you to the next round of the playoffs. That's what the viewing public remembers; the big plays that make or break a team's season. We don't need to have a top 5 offense for them to be successful, they just need to score more than the other guys. That is utilizing them to their full potential.
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Old 04-02-2005   #7
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I appreciated his candor, but the article's a little foggy. Carr's an important and detailed lesson for SF, but the lesson is that there are no indicators?

So why's it so important to them...? I get what he's saying--that it's a major gamble--but the thing that stuck out for me is that Carr's taken a lot more shots than Ryan Leaf did and has already proven himself to be more of a man and a player than Leaf. But that still doesn't mean he's proven himself worthy of that #1 pick.

I also noted that the Capers/Casserly/Palmer track record with those #1 QBs was kinda scary.
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Old 04-02-2005   #8
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Ibar has turned into quite the Texans troll over the years.

Addressing multiple points from different posters...Carr strikes me as an honest young man. We always want candor from our sports leaders and when we get it we hammer them. I appreciate his honesty. I think Carr should share in some of the blame when it comes to the sacks because he has never been the best at getting the ball out timely, but he has grown quite a bit and there is no reason to believe he will not mature further as he understands the complex NFL defenses. Part of us introducing more timing routes was Carr wasn't getting the ball out to the right people in my view, so he takes part of the blame as well. We tend to want to blame everyone but our favorite players and this is very much a team game. The blame for our bi-polar passing attack should go to 3 elements. The line, the line protection calls, and the QB. They all hold a puzzle-piece of blame. Ibar, Palmer does call the protections. There is a bit of debate in the coaching ranks over him not using slide protections inside. Iím sure this is getting addressed.

As far as him being damaged goods? I find that notion absurd. Michael Vick was sacked about as much per attempt as Carr and nobody fears he is damaged. In the AFC only Peyton Manning, Trent Green, Jake Plummer and Tom Brady threw for more yards than David Carr. That is not what damaged goods produces in an offense with obvious flaws.
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Old 04-02-2005   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibar_Harry
The owner has said we will protect Carr, but no actions taken so far give any indication of that being accomplished. I think there is good reason to believe Carr has been damaged by the unrelenting attacks. Remember, the concussions Young suffered. You just can't take the hits forever. The body grows older and recovers more slowly. I'm sorry, but I think the Texans have wasted a lot of money on David, because they have never intended to use his talents in a way that made sense. I don't think David is the kind of guy who will question the coaching staff. He's probably a yes man. Carr will probably never be more than a mediocre QB as long as he plays for Houston. The same is true of AJ. I know he made the pro bowl, but he is being under utilized by the Texans. He is a receiver and a go to man. But Capers is a defensive coach and offense seems to be something you have to put up with. Offense never wins games in his eyes. He appears to be very uncomfortible with the offensive side of the game and that's one of the reasons I believe he needs to move on. Vinny says Palmer is calling the blocking assignments. If that's the case Vinny, then Palmer has some additional strikes against him. I will repeat, I'm sorry, but if Cass is going to continue to pick the best player available at the time of the draft, then he needs to get a coach that can utilize the talent being provided, not destroy it. I should qualify that by saying any offensive talent being provided by Cass.
I really don't understand why some people are upset with the steps Carr made last season, yes his progress has been slow at times, but he took a huge step last year. Look all I remember last offseason was everyone saying for Carr's season to be successful he needed to improve his comp. % into the 60's and throw more td's than ints., well guess what he did that and not only did he do that he threw for about 3500 yards (thats more than Mcnair has every thrown) and almost twice as many tds as he had the previous years and thats WITH all the sacks and qb hurries. So try to imagine the success he is going to have when he is able to stand in the pocket, because this oline isn't going to be horrid forever and once that happens you are going to see tds go up and ints. drop dramaticly since ints. are a product of the pass rush. Second Andre Johnson is going to be a hellava lot more than a mediocre receiver. As far as all the great receivers in the game, at this point in AJ's career statisticly he's on pace to be greater than them. AJ is a very special player, one that doesn't come along very often and there isn't a player in the entire league that I would trade him for. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he is the first texan to go into the hof. I know I'm probably going to get some feedback, because of that comment, but I don't care. I'm not the only one that sees his greatness, you can go to message boards around the league and they will say the same thing. Think about this, did anyone watch the qb skills comp. at the pro bowl when they were building the perfect qb, well lets try to build the perfect receiver. #1 my perfect receiver must posses blazing speed that will alow him to just fly past the defender. #2 my perfect receiver would have unbelievable strength that would allow him to catch a 5 yard swing pass and straight up run over defenders and threw tackles and break the play wide open. #3 my perfect receiver would have great hands and always catch the ball away from his body and not be scared to go over the middle (on a side note have you ever seen a defender physical enough to lay a punishing blow on AJ when he went over the middle.) #4 my perfect receiver would be a great route runner.(AJ's not there yet, but he's young and is only going to improve) #5(and probably the most important of all) my perfect reciever wouldn't be a ego maniac and would let his play speak louder than any words, would be fully devoted to the success of my team and would never say something that would embarrass my franchise. To sum it all up AJ is greatness.

Last edited by Carr Bombed; 04-02-2005 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 04-02-2005   #10
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****************
"We thought it best to get David in there right away," says Casserly. "We still do. But if I had to do it over again, we would find a way to make the offensive line better from the start."
****************
Pretty candid remark - by the way, how's that doin now Cass ?
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Old 04-02-2005   #11
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I find Casserly honest and candid. He is just stating what we all see.
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Old 04-02-2005   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nunusguy
****************
"We thought it best to get David in there right away," says Casserly. "We still do. But if I had to do it over again, we would find a way to make the offensive line better from the start."
****************
Pretty candid remark - by the way, how's that doin now Cass ?
I actually like that his isn't afraid to admit his mistakes. Thats alot better than being an officer barbrady "everthings fine, nothing to see here". Second we have tried to improve the Oline this offseason, for god's sake he made a major push to get the best LT in the league unfortunetly he just used us as leverage to get his contract worked out with st. louis

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Old 04-02-2005   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carr Bomb
I'm actually like that his isn't afraid to admit his mistakes. Thats alot better than being an officer barbrady "everthings fine, nothing to see here". Second we have tried to improve the Oline this offseason, for god's sake he made a major push to get the best LT in the league unfortunetly he just used us as leverage to get his contract worked out with st. louis

And if you think about it, it's actually the second time Cass has tried to land us the best LT in the league. This one worked out better than the last one.
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Old 04-02-2005   #14
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Originally Posted by Hulk75
Some people blow my mind.....and makes me wonder if people have ever played a football. When he said "Is this for me, is it always going to be like this", he was reffering to the 90 sacks that was laid on him his rookie year. Think of it like this, imagine your hardest and pretty much your worst day of work and live that out for about 16 weeks, thats what it was like for him, O, yea any of you heard him complain about it yet.

hey now ..thats basicly the same thing I said.

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But I dunno.. I guess I always saw him as indifferent to it. I figured he loved the game and was a tough guy.. breaking the record in sacks was just a step towards the superbowl for him. That is asking a bit much of him though
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I know thats being totally illogical of me.. I mean.. with the kind of beating he took.. no man in their first year on a job wouldnt be thinking that after a couple months.

All I said was that it was bothersome to hear him say it .. I would have rathered that he was superman and it didnt phase him in the least.. but he isnt and you cant expect him to be. I just hope it has no long lasting effects on him.. and that he reaches his true potential with us.
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Old 04-02-2005   #15
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If Carr gets sacked this year I want to see O-linemen running to help him off the ground.

Someone needs to post all of those pictures from the story in the lockers of our OL. Step up guys before you kill #8.


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Old 04-04-2005   #16
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Vinny, thanks for the comments on the O-line and Palmer. I still maintain what I believe and we will see what happens. The crux of the matter is still the O-line and protection for Carr. I just think we are on borrowed time unless a fix is made. If you hit someone often enough and hard enough you will do damage to them. Just ask George Forman. Ask Theisman? I will never forget that ugly scene on national television. Again, my point is protection is the key to Carr and AJ. Without that protection they will never be what all of you see in them, including me. Its not that I don't think there is greatness in AJ and Carr, its that I don't think it will see the light of day as long as we continue to have huge problems with the O-line and their blocking schemes as well as a coaching staff that discounts the offense. Carr has mobility, but he's not Vick. He needs the pocket, but it ain't there. Some blame McKinny others blame Wand. It doesn't matter who's at fault what matters is so far it hasn't been fixed and I don't see anything yet that shows that its really being addressed. Some believe it will be fixed by time. I don't think we have that much time left. Some feel it will be addressed in the draft, but if that's the case, many say a draftee will take at least a year or more to be effective. So the $64,000 question is the O-line being fixed and will it be in place by the start of the season. I honestly don't believe this question has been answered. Then people are talking about taking another WR, but without an O-line that's a waste. To me this is a chicken and egg problem. I would love for Carr to have another great receiver to throw to, but if he can't find him in time, its a waste. Many feel we need a better running back so that we can develop a dominating running attack and that in itself will fix the O-line problems. If that happens doesn't that deemphasize passing and will result in puting AJ on the back burner. When I listen to what everyone is saying including the coaching staff and the owner, it just seems like there are a lot of contradictions and very few answers. I would hate to see us have another frustrating year, because we lacked the personnel to do the job right.
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Old 04-04-2005   #17
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The idea that another WR will not help Carr seems a little prejudice.

A solid number 2 threat can wreak havoc on the secondary, thus causing the safties to play back more. This opens the underneath routes for the TEs and the defense will be rushing mostly 4.

Without a solid number 2, the defense can double/roll coverage to AJ's side and play man coverage on the number 2 WR. In a 2-WR set the SS can cheat up, because the FS and CB are covering AJ and the other CB#2 is covering WR#2. The SS is then free to play the run or pressure/sack the QB. In summary, an above average WR opposite AJ could reduce SOME of the pressure on DC, but ultimately the OL needs to hold off the dogs a little longer.
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Old 04-04-2005   #18
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Well I have to agree with a bit of everyone's philosophy on David Carr. But no matter what's said I think this is the season that will make or break him whether the o-line improves or not. (Hint, hint CC.)
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Old 04-04-2005   #19
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Protection will do more for him than another guy running around getting open. Coverage can be disected easily with time to go thru your progressions. If the DL is in his face and all he had time to do was read AJ, that second receiver can be wide open. Carr can't/won't find him because a 300lb Defensive lineman is in his face. He might as well not run a route at all.

I think we will go to slide protections this year. These 1 on 1 pass blocking schemes are not productive in a division full of Pass rushing specialists. I think slide protections should buy Carr atleast another second or 2.

The TE running underneath routes would be great if we can find a TE that can lineup for both passing plays and running plays and be productive. Otherwise its practically a giveaway what the play call is by the TE we have on the field.
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Old 04-05-2005   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outofhnd
Protection will do more for him than another guy running around getting open. Coverage can be disected easily with time to go thru your progressions. If the DL is in his face and all he had time to do was read AJ, that second receiver can be wide open. Carr can't/won't find him because a 300lb Defensive lineman is in his face. He might as well not run a route at all.

I think we will go to slide protections this year. These 1 on 1 pass blocking schemes are not productive in a division full of Pass rushing specialists. I think slide protections should buy Carr atleast another second or 2.

The TE running underneath routes would be great if we can find a TE that can lineup for both passing plays and running plays and be productive. Otherwise its practically a giveaway what the play call is by the TE we have on the field.

yeah i agree, i see not point in getting a fast speedy wide reciever if carr dont have better protection, what use will another WR be, a lot of time carr didnt even have time to get the ball to johnnson. One better protection than we can ger a WR, until then i think it would be a waste of a draft pick "for now".
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