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Old 01-15-2013   #1
Texanmike02
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Default Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

OK. There are a bunch of complaints about Schaub, some of them are legitimate others are just nit picking. He isn't mobile, we know that. He might not have the best arm in the league, we know that too but I don't think there is anyone here that can deny that he has demonstrated in the past that he is capable of being a top 10 QB in this league. So what is the difference?

I went back and rewatched our game. Painful. But I was specifically looking for something. I'm submitting the idea that we ask Schaub to fit throws into too tight of a window too often. Go back and look at his completions. If you have access to the tape go look at third downs. Repeatedly we don't have good separation. Schaub is having to fit the ball into tight windows over and over. Then go look at Brady. 3rd and 5? He is throwing the ball to a receiver that doesn't have anyone within 10 feet of him. Does Brady make the small window throws? Sure he does. He made 4 that I saw. He also missed a few. Sometimes the receiver makes a great catch and sometimes the throw is perfect but we ask Schaub to make that kind of throw 20 times a game. Go watch his incompletions. Other than one throw to AJ (endzone 2nd pass of the game), one to Walter and one to Graham I didn't see him miss a lot of throws. (There was the WR screen on the left side but that play was just busted. That isn't a read that is just a matter of hike and throw.) Outside of those throws I saw a total of 4 throws that were to an open receiver. We all talk about NFL open vs College open but it sure looked like Brady was throwing to a College open receiver the majority of the time. Schaub threw the ball 51 times. I rewatched every throw. Of those 51 throws a full 19 of them were covered throws. I'm talking blanketed. Did he make the wrong read? Maybe. I don't have the all22 film available to go look but our receivers don't get separation.

Think about how you have to try to defend NE, GB, NYG, NO or ATL. NE has Wes Welker, Brandon Lloyd, Gronk, and Hernandez. Sure AJ is better than any one of them individually but combined nobody has the DBs to dover them. GB is more of the same.

Our receivers just flat out don't get open. Not at the rate that other teams do. Other elite teams have 3 or 4 receivers that are better than most nickel/dime db's, we have one. You can't tell me that between the throw to Daniels and the TD to Posey that Schaub isn't making elite throws, he is just being asked to make elite throws too often.

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Old 01-15-2013   #2
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

I agree. We have Arian Foster, Andre Johnson, and a couple of average tight ends. After that it's basically a pile of turd. I hope Posey or Martin can step up but combined they had 16 catches this year. That's pathetic.
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Old 01-15-2013   #3
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

Johnson is the only guy we have that can get separation. He's lost some speed but still runs great routes to create room. Same with Daniels. He's never been the fastest guy but runs great routes to get open. Problem is, because they lack the ability to separate, good coverage accounts for them.

Our faster guys (Posey and Martin) aren't as developed in their craft yet and rely on their speed. Problem is this is the NFL and the other guys are fast too. I think Martin was criminally underused this year btw because he did get open. He's further ahead in his development than Posey or Jean at this point.
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Old 01-15-2013   #4
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

Aside from AJ, the only time our receivers get open is when they're schemed open. Those long passes to KW early in the season sure seemed to dry up quickly!
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Old 01-15-2013   #5
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

Wait wait wait wait... You think we should value speed and ability to get separation over run blocking on the outside? HERESY!!!
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Old 01-15-2013   #6
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Wait wait wait wait... You think we should value speed and ability to get separation over run blocking on the outside? HERESY!!!
Well the run blocking is important because, let's be honest, we are a run first team. When he's gone we are going to miss Kevin Walter because of that. When we throw the ball though we won't be missing him too much because he's limited. It's a trade off. It's rare to find a guy like AJ who excels in both.
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Old 01-15-2013   #7
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

I agree that our WRs, those we trust to catch & hold the ball, lack separation ability. I thought Schaub had some pretty impressive small window throws early on.
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Old 01-15-2013   #8
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Default

I disagree with everyone in this thread. In fact it's an awfully silly notion to think receivers are going to get some kind of great separation more often than not. This is the NFL.

If a team has wr's who are open all the time they'd be unstoppable. If you're running a route you might get separation on your corner but there might be another player sliding over the top or in front. Qb's need to expect to have to make tight throws on a regular basis. It's the NFL. This isn't college. In the NFL sometimes you gotta throw guys open. You have to put balls in spots where your guys have the best shot at it.

Schaub does this sometimes, but not often enough. I font know if that's on him or on kubiak, because we we are trailing teams and go into chuck mode he makes those throws more often.

The two point conversion to Aj was a good example. He extended the play Talib was all over Aj. Schaub threw it in a good spot where Aj had the best shot at it and he made the play.

Why don't we do that more often? Why don't we take advantage of mismatches? Why don't we take advantage of guys strengths?

Why don't we use Walter in the slot as a hands guy more often? Let him bang against lb's...catch short passes by using his size to box out defenders? Posey and Lestar would be much better as outside wr's.

Yeah Casey had one drop. But the guy has good hands mostly and he's a mismatch nightmare for some lb's. Ditto arian.

Welker was a nobody until he went to the pats. And he still drops a bunch of passes. All these rb's Brady throws to, are they better than Arian?


Also, there have been plenty times where schaub has forced balls when guys have been open for better looks.

Lots of qb's have to extend plays to give wr's more time. Lots of qb's don't find wr's running wide open and throw balls away, run for yards and take sacks.

If we need receiving targets that are getting wide open all the time then we could stick anybody back there at qb. How hard is it to throw to a bunch of wide open receivers all the time?

How about giving Matt more freedom to attack mismatches and change tempo and Matt just making more plays?
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Old 01-15-2013   #9
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
I disagree with everyone in this thread. In fact it's an awfully silly notion to think receivers are going to get some kind of great separation more often than not. This is the NFL.

If a team has wr's who are open all the time they'd be unstoppable. If you're running a route you might get separation on your corner but there might be another player sliding over the top or in front. Qb's need to expect to have to make tight throws on a regular basis. It's the NFL. This isn't college. In the NFL sometimes you gotta throw guys open. You have to put balls in spots where your guys have the best shot at it.

Schaub does this sometimes, but not often enough. I font know if that's on him or on kubiak, because we we are trailing teams and go into chuck mode he makes those throws more often.

The two point conversion to Aj was a good example. He extended the play Talib was all over Aj. Schaub threw it in a good spot where Aj had the best shot at it and he made the play.

Why don't we do that more often? Why don't we take advantage of mismatches? Why don't we take advantage of guys strengths?

Why don't we use Walter in the slot as a hands guy more often? Let him bang against lb's...catch short passes by using his size to box out defenders? Posey and Lestar would be much better as outside wr's.

Yeah Casey had one drop. But the guy has good hands mostly and he's a mismatch nightmare for some lb's. Ditto arian.

Welker was a nobody until he went to the pats. And he still drops a bunch of passes. All these rb's Brady throws to, are they better than Arian?


Also, there have been plenty times where schaub has forced balls when guys have been open for better looks.

Lots of qb's have to extend plays to give wr's more time. Lots of qb's don't find wr's running wide open and throw balls away, run for yards and take sacks.

If we need receiving targets that are getting wide open all the time then we could stick anybody back there at qb. How hard is it to throw to a bunch of wide open receivers all the time?

How about giving Matt more freedom to attack mismatches and change tempo and Matt just making more plays?
Go watch the throws Brady made against us on 3rd down. Several of them were WIDE open. I'm not saying you need people wide open every play but it sure seems like other teams have players running wide open a lot more often. You can go to the "we need you to throw a strike on the money" well a few times but you can't do it on 60% of your passes.

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Old 01-15-2013   #10
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

We have players that are a perfect fit for the playbook, but the playbook does not evolve with the half, game, season or speed of the league.

Kubiak has us right where he wants us.

The question should be posed to Rick Smith - what is the impact to rip and replace the Kubiak system? My fear is that we have invested in a dying offense, and will continue to make roster decisions that make little impact on the overall results, but puts us in cap hell for when the change occurs.
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Old 01-15-2013   #11
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

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We have players that are a perfect fit for the playbook, but the playbook does not evolve with the half, game, season or speed of the league.
Funny how two years ago our problem was that we started slow & finished strong. During the game, same for the season.

Oh how we dreamed of the day we would start strong, secure a play-off berth early so we could coast through the season, or get up big to start a game & give us some breathing room....

Those were the days.
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Old 01-15-2013   #12
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
We have players that are a perfect fit for the playbook, but the playbook does not evolve with the half, game, season or speed of the league.

Kubiak has us right where he wants us.

The question should be posed to Rick Smith - what is the impact to rip and replace the Kubiak system? My fear is that we have invested in a dying offense, and will continue to make roster decisions that make little impact on the overall results, but puts us in cap hell for when the change occurs.
Not sure what you imply with the bolded, but agree with the first paragraph!

As to the third paragraph, Rick Smith is very much Darryl Morrey. They've made some brilliant and well, not so brilliant decisions. I don't think the offense is dying, I think Schaub's Lisfranc fracture is everything Doc said it would be.

****************

Listen,

I believe this is a failure from Uncle Bob all the way down to the interns handing out gatorade cups on the sideline.

I think its completely disingenuos for people to use their own agendas to put this loss on Schaub, Kubiak, Phillips (oh wait, no one here would ever do that), or Marciano......

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Old 01-15-2013   #13
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

It seems that some fans are fine with Walter being the #2 guy next year yet again...

We have to get Shaub another guy. Tavon Austin. Robert Woods. Free Agent. I don't care what the upgrade is, just get an upgrade, its been overdue for about 4 years now.
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Old 01-15-2013   #14
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

It's simple..

Matt simply checked down way too much this year, now the question we don't know is why..

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...S/SchaMa00.htm
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Old 01-15-2013   #15
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

Reads bottom to top, from a guy who has been inside the Texans and still has a few friends in there...

Seth Payne ‏@PayneNFL
Quote:
Schaub is bright enough to do so much more before the snap, but has no authority to do it.

Brady takes 15 seconds and a hard count to identify the mike. Texans just line up and go. Brady wins.

Need to take the training wheels off Schaub when it comes to pre-snap invol
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Old 01-15-2013   #16
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

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Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
Reads bottom to top, from a guy who has been inside the Texans and still has a few friends in there...

Seth Payne ‏@PayneNFL
That sucks if true. You have to give him command of the offense.

The problem isn't lack of weapons. Andre OD and foster are plenty.

Its the hc/oc/qb or system that isn't getting the most of them. I haven't followed the Texans quite enough to claim to know which it is. In our mnf it was both..kubiak insisted on running repeatedly into wilfork (not a great plan for winning a shootout) and Schaub was consistently missing the wide open foster (most glaringly in the interception)
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Old 01-15-2013   #17
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

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Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
Reads bottom to top, from a guy who has been inside the Texans and still has a few friends in there...

Seth Payne ‏@PayneNFL
Good post and i'll bet that none of Schaub's detractors are going to address this even though it probably holds more weight than anything anyone on here says. When you get down to it, Kubiak is the real issue here for 1 of 2 reasons.

#1..The above tweet from Seth Payne illustrates it. Schaub's not given free range to audible to take advantage of possible defensive mismatches by Kubiak. It clearly shows in the playcalling, how the offense runs during certain situations (down by 20+ in the 4th and we're still not running sugar huddle & getting plays called in from the sidelines?) and of course our tempo at times with hard counts. If Payne can see it, what makes you think coaches like Belichick don't see it?

#2..if it's simply a matter of Kubiak not trusting Schaub........for whatever reason.......then lets move on and try to find a qb that does inspire his trust. Draft, trade, pay him under the table.....whatever. But no, they've picked up all these guys who don't stand a chance of becoming anything & of course they extend Schaub. & yeah, the last part of that is mainly on Smith, but i gotta believe that Kubiak had some say in whether or not they extended him or not.

#3..the weapons around him, more specifically the ones on the outside. Kubiak's looking at it from the wrong perspective. having a WR that can block is great...above all though, those WR's have to be a threat in the passing game..we really only have 1. Our offense looks eerily like ATL's did just a few years ago. heavily dependent on the run but couldn't do much once the run got shutdown in the playoffs. They realized that they needed to get more weaponry for Ryan on the outside, better, more aggressive playcalling enter Dirk Koetter, TG and Julio Jones. Matt Ryan and that offense exploded this year.

Schaub's not elite; everybody on this board acknowledges that. But Kubiak most certainly isn't helping him and this offense like he thinks he is. I would think that more than anything, he's hindering him by keeping guys like Walter
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Old 01-15-2013   #18
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Payne
Brady takes 15 seconds and a hard count to identify the mike. Texans just line up and go. Brady wins
Can someone explain this a little more thoroughly? Wouldn't teams have the same mike linebacker every snap? Does it have more to do with the scheme the team is using?
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Old 01-15-2013   #19
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

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Can someone explain this a little more thoroughly? Wouldn't teams have the same mike linebacker every snap? Does it have more to do with the scheme the team is using?
It's simply a matter of determining who's coming and who's not that the qb tries to figure out. defenses try to disquise this by having multiple guys crowding the LOS like they're all blitzing..most times that's not the case so the qb uses a hard count to see which 1 of the guys in the middle tips their hands by jumping forward/jumping back. Good hard counts can usually reveal this and the qb's/centers can adjust protection and plays accordingly.
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Old 01-15-2013   #20
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Default Re: Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
Reads bottom to top, from a guy who has been inside the Texans and still has a few friends in there...

Seth Payne ‏@PayneNFL
I like Seth.... but, he played on defense. How do we know that Schaub isn't doing the same thing Brady is doing in less time? Before week 10, he was one of the least sacked QBs in the league. Against Cincinnati, he was clean. Only one sack vs New England.

A lot of quick passes & throw aways to be sure, but there were some decent throws in there as well.
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