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Old 12-17-2012   #1
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Cool "You take the 3 points and move on"

So Schaub was discussing the game this morning. He was very comfortable with the field goals given the down and distances. For instance, on the 3rd and 15 (goal) he said (paraphrasing) pretty much every team will just run the ball and kick the field goal, you don't want to risk a turnover.

Does this attitude of our QB and HC worry anyone?
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Old 12-17-2012   #2
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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So Schaub was discussing the game this morning. He was very comfortable with the field goals given the down and distances. For instance, on the 3rd and 15 (goal) he said (paraphrasing) pretty much every team will just run the ball and kick the field goal, you don't want to risk a turnover.

Does this attitude of our QB and HC worry anyone?
It absolutely worries me. Sure, you dont throw into double coverage, but you shouldn't do that anyway. Throw a safe pass to the corner of the end zone, either our guy gets it, or its an incomplete. However, I dont think Schaub is good enough to make that throw consistently. That may be why we dont ever see that throw.
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Old 12-17-2012   #3
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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It absolutely worries me. Sure, you dont throw into double coverage, but you shouldn't do that anyway. Throw a safe pass to the corner of the end zone, either our guy gets it, or its an incomplete. However, I dont think Schaub is good enough to make that throw consistently. That may be why we dont ever see that throw.
I agree. The draw play from there gives you the worst odds of scoring a TD or even making a positive play. Put the ball in the QB's hands. Maybe he can hit someone on a slant that scores. Maybe he sees nothing & he throws it away.

However, I think Kubiak saw 2 plays get blown up, another mistake just waiting to happen. So he went with the safest play. I guarantee no one would be giving Gary a pass, if he called a fade to Andre that's picked off & changes the momentum of the game.

This team (as we saw against New England) is still capable of giving games away.

I don't agree with that approach. They'll never grow if you keep protecting them. I like what Harbaugh is doing with his green QB. That guy made some bone headed decisions, but the rest of the team stepped up & minimized their effects. We tend to snowball. He needs to figure out why that's the case & fix it. I think it's because we have such a hodge-podge of players on offense, only two first round picks. Two guys who are used to winning, expect to win.

Defensively we've got the pedigree, of guys who expect to win.
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Old 12-17-2012   #4
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

Not every offense can consitantly hang 3 burgers on fools!!!
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Old 12-17-2012   #5
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

Arm strength has 0 to do with why we don't throw in the red zone. It's b/c the field is shorter, defenders are in closer proximity than they normally are, which makes them a little more agressive driving on short crossing routes & curls, def coordinators are less afraid of being burned if they choose to blitz...it's just too risky for an offense. Matt's right, against good teams you have to take the points when you can get them...don't even see why this is a debate.

Fans keep calling for that fade/jump ball throw to AJ like it's a surefire TD if we throw it to him just b/c on paper the match up favors us 9 out of 10 times. Those kind of throws are at best 50/50 balls b/c many times the db doesn't have to turn his back & run with the WR..he can just back up & get a hand on the ball....possibly tip it to himself or another nearby defender.

Last year this is all Stafford & Calvin Johnson did in the end zone & they were extremely successful...This year, not so much. & we all saw what happened to the Ravens right before the half yesterday trying to do this exact same thing; pick 6 the other way.


Maybe you mix up your playcalling a bit and run a few trick pass plays but for the most part i agree with schaub here & don't really have a problem with them taking the points.

Running the ball is a strength of ours, we've got 1 of the best rb's in the game that has a nose for the end zone.
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Old 12-17-2012   #6
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

We've had red zone problems for a while now. Not sure what the problem is
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Old 12-17-2012   #7
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Arm strength has 0 to do with why we don't throw in the red zone. It's b/c the field is shorter, defenders are in closer proximity than they normally are, which makes them a little more agressive driving on short crossing routes & curls, def coordinators are less afraid of being burned if they choose to blitz..
People don't blitz on passing plays all that often in the redzone. It makes much more sense to sit back in a zone and force the QB to throw into a tight window. If he tries to run it, you have people looking at him.

QB's that can move well and put pressure on the defense with their legs and/or arm tend to have a lot of RED ZONE success.

And I disagree that arm strength doesn't have anything to do with it. IMO it has A LOT to do with it. You said it yourself...The windows are smaller. Arm strength becomes more apparent in shorter spaces. Guys with guns can zip balls into tight spaces on a regular basis. Having some mobility also helps because it makes defenders abandon their zones to stop the QB from running.

Schaub doesn't have either one of those attributes going for him and that's why he's never been a really good Red Zone QB.
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Old 12-17-2012   #8
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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People don't blitz on passing plays all that often in the redzone. It makes much more sense to sit back in a zone and force the QB to throw into a tight window. If he tries to run it, you have people looking at him.

QB's that can move well and put pressure on the defense with their legs and/or arm tend to have a lot of RED ZONE success.

And I disagree that arm strength doesn't have anything to do with it. IMO it has A LOT to do with it. You said it yourself...The windows are smaller. Arm strength becomes more apparent in shorter spaces. Guys with guns can zip balls into tight spaces on a regular basis. Having some mobility also helps because it makes defenders abandon their zones to stop the QB from running.

Schaub doesn't have either one of those attributes going for him and that's why he's never been a really good Red Zone QB.
It's a matter of philosophy & situation & tendencies imo. a d-coordinator might choose to blitz if he's trying to force the qb to throw it quickly allowing the db's to sit & drive on those short routes that they know the WR's are going to be running b/c the fear of getting beat deep is pretty much non-existent.

& ok, maybe zero percent was a bit of an exageration...maybe it has about 10% to do with it simply b/c even at the egde of the redzone a 20 yd. throw is nothing for any NFL qb to make & put on a rope...even for guys like schaub....As long as he can step into his throw. His arm strength issues really only rears it's head when he's throwing deep.
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Old 12-17-2012   #9
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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people don't blitz on passing plays all that often in the redzone. It makes much more sense to sit back in a zone and force the qb to throw into a tight window. If he tries to run it, you have people looking at him.

Qb's that can move well and put pressure on the defense with their legs and/or arm tend to have a lot of red zone success.

And i disagree that arm strength doesn't have anything to do with it. imo it has a lot to do with it. You said it yourself...the windows are smaller. Arm strength becomes more apparent in shorter spaces. Guys with guns can zip balls into tight spaces on a regular basis. Having some mobility also helps because it makes defenders abandon their zones to stop the qb from running.

Schaub doesn't have either one of those attributes going for him and that's why he's never been a really good red zone qb
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Old 12-18-2012   #10
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Arm strength has 0 to do with why we don't throw in the red zone. It's b/c the field is shorter, defenders are in closer proximity than they normally are, which makes them a little more agressive driving on short crossing routes & curls, def coordinators are less afraid of being burned if they choose to blitz...it's just too risky for an offense. Matt's right, against good teams you have to take the points when you can get them...don't even see why this is a debate.

Fans keep calling for that fade/jump ball throw to AJ like it's a surefire TD if we throw it to him just b/c on paper the match up favors us 9 out of 10 times. Those kind of throws are at best 50/50 balls b/c many times the db doesn't have to turn his back & run with the WR..he can just back up & get a hand on the ball....possibly tip it to himself or another nearby defender.

Last year this is all Stafford & Calvin Johnson did in the end zone & they were extremely successful...This year, not so much. & we all saw what happened to the Ravens right before the half yesterday trying to do this exact same thing; pick 6 the other way.


Maybe you mix up your playcalling a bit and run a few trick pass plays but for the most part i agree with schaub here & don't really have a problem with them taking the points.

Running the ball is a strength of ours, we've got 1 of the best rb's in the game that has a nose for the end zone.
Joe Flacco's pick wasn't a fade...It was a quick out route that Flacco just telegraphed all the way. Last year the fade with Stafford and Megatron was MONEY this year it's different because they don't even throw it because of the double coverage they have on Megatron once they reach the 5. The fade between Dalton and AJ Green is money as well as Romo/Dez, Ryan/Julio, Eli/Nicks(when healthy). When you have a 6'3 230 lb receiver who has a 40 inch vertical YOU HAVE TO THROW THE FADE AT LEAST ONCE. It's just stupid not to give it a try. As long as Schaub throws it right(which means high and to the sideline) it's INCREDIBLY hard to pick it off. Did you guys see Andre's catch when Schaub threw the back shoulder fade? Guess what? We could do that in the redzone as well. You're right when teams get into the redzone the coverage is much tighter which supports the argument of a fade to Andre as long as the coverage is 1 on 1.
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Old 12-18-2012   #11
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

I think fade routes are entirely overrated.

Most of the time it winds up a totally wasted down.
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Old 12-18-2012   #12
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Joe Flacco's pick wasn't a fade...It was a quick out route that Flacco just telegraphed all the way. Last year the fade with Stafford and Megatron was MONEY this year it's different because they don't even throw it because of the double coverage they have on Megatron once they reach the 5. The fade between Dalton and AJ Green is money as well as Romo/Dez, Ryan/Julio, Eli/Nicks(when healthy). When you have a 6'3 230 lb receiver who has a 40 inch vertical YOU HAVE TO THROW THE FADE AT LEAST ONCE. It's just stupid not to give it a try. As long as Schaub throws it right(which means high and to the sideline) it's INCREDIBLY hard to pick it off. Did you guys see Andre's catch when Schaub threw the back shoulder fade? Guess what? We could do that in the redzone as well. You're right when teams get into the redzone the coverage is much tighter which supports the argument of a fade to Andre as long as the coverage is 1 on 1.

Lol, Stafford is throwing them, they just aren't converting them as much b/c teams know what they like to do once they get into the red zone...like i said in another post addressed to Rey "tendencies". The coverage that Calvin has been seeing has nothing to do with it b/c teams have been sending all kinds of crazy coverage to Megatron....even last year..... it just didn't matter. They just had 1 of those years where they converted an abnormally high # of those type of plays & this year water found it's level.

Getting back on topic though, That fade throw is also incredibly hard for the qb to throw just right for it to be converted. It's also incredibly hard for the WR to catch it & get both feet down in bounds/maintain possession all the way down as well. & with there being no force out rule in effect anymore...it's even harder...Like i said it's a 50-50 ball at best if everything is done perfect & you've got an elite guy out there. If 1 of those variable is even a little out of whack, then it's exactly what matrix31 says..a waste of a down.

& regardless of whether it's was a fade or an out route that Flacco threw the premise about what i'm saying about a db's mentality in the red zone holds true. They're more apt to gamble and drive on short routes b/c they have no fear of getting beat deep & they know the WR's will be running them. They already have the 5 yard chuck rule to further shrink the room available & mess up the timing of the route & if a qb still chooses to force it in there the chances of a pick go up even higher.

So yes the fade is a relatively safe play to run with potentially a big reward..More often than not however you're going to be in a 3rd & long with limited playcalling. & while you may not think this is true, 3rd and 8 plus is alot tougher to convert than 3rd and 5 or less. This assumes that you run the ball for 2.5 yds on all other downs. The playbook options are that much more wide open.
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Old 12-17-2012   #13
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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So Schaub was discussing the game this morning. He was very comfortable with the field goals given the down and distances. For instance, on the 3rd and 15 (goal) he said (paraphrasing) pretty much every team will just run the ball and kick the field goal, you don't want to risk a turnover.

Does this attitude of our QB and HC worry anyone?

No, it doesn't. It's correct if unappealing on the surface. Sometimes I wish they'd get their gamble on a little more but it's not like this doesn't work. It's obviously working just fine and has been since, well probably since 2007 to be honest.

Gary fixed the offense (fixed by his definition I think) in 2007 when he brought Schaub in and our offensive stats started climbing. What he didn't fix was the defense and that is why we were looking at 8-8, 8-8, 9-7, and 6-10. A defense of any ability on those teams probably turns that into at least a few 10+ win seasons with a little luck against the injury bug mixed in.

We're good. Remains to be seen if we're good enough but you know, after watching the 49'ers in the first half of their game last night make the Patriots look like us when we played the Patriots, and then nearly collapse and give it all away I'm forced to conclude that NFL football is a game of preparedness and controlled emotion. We're as good as any team in the league. Getting better isn't going to happen because there is no "better" in terms of collected talent out there. It's about coaching and consistency and finding a spark ("it" factor, whatever). Teams get hot and cold through the course of the year and we talk about peaking too soon or too late. Harbaugh changed out Smith for Kapernick (sp?) and at the time I thought he was making a mistake but Kap gives them a spark and the rest is already in place. Coaching is solid, talent level is consistent with a contender, and they have enough experience to handle adversity. Add a spark and things happen.

The Texans are young, don't all know how to handle adversity too well, and at least on the offensive side we don't have anyone giving us that spark consistently. Sometimes AJ can do it, Foster can get rolling and make it happen. Every once in a while Schaub has a magic day where he can do it. No one there consistently does it though. Not like Watt does on the defensive side. That's the difference between Schaub and the Bradys and Rogers of the world. Mostly Schaub runs the machine and sometimes he provides the energy with his play. Those other guys that get the elite title get it because they make it happen most of the time and when they don't get it done that's the exception to the rule.

What we've been seeing for most of the last 6-7 games has been a good team with no spark on offense. We're just good enough to beat most teams and we got lucky a little too. AJ stepped up and put the team on his shoulders for a few weeks.

Somebody on the offense needs to throw this thing on his shoulders and lead on the field, hold everyone else accountable, and provide the spark that makes the offense run like it is capable of running during the playoffs. Doesn't matter who but someone needs to bring the energy. That's what I think anyway.

I don't hold this over Kubiak anymore. He built the kind of offense that he knows how to build and he's seen it work in the past. It's up to the guys on the field to make plays now.
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Old 12-17-2012   #14
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Somebody on the offense needs to throw this thing on his shoulders and lead on the field, hold everyone else accountable, and provide the spark that makes the offense run like it is capable of running during the playoffs. Doesn't matter who but someone needs to bring the energy. That's what I think anyway.
Solid post Hervoyel. I agree with everything you said, except, I believe that person has to be Matt Schaub. No two ways about it.

He's the QB, he runs the offense. I don't mean that he needs to be Tom Brady. I don't think he needs to run up the stats. He needs to be the leader.

I know, you'll have some guys coming in here & saying to a T the guys in the locker room point towards Matt Schaub being the leader of the offense, but he needs to take it to another level.

When we need a play, Matt should be able to demand it from his guys & they should deliver. If that's not happening, he's not the guy we need.

He's not elite, we know that. He's not clutch, we know that. He's not athletic, we know that. He doesn't have the strongest arm in the league, we know that. For him to be the guy to keep us in Super Bowl contention year in & year out, Matt has to be the kind of leader we see in the great QBs.

It's obvious when you look at Young, Montana, Aikman, Brady, Manning. He doesn't have to yell at the players on the field, those guys may have done that, but that's not what made them great leaders.

Is Schaub the leader of offense? Sure. Is he a great leader?

I think we're about to find out.
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Old 12-17-2012   #15
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Cool Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

I'll rep and read the responses later, some very well thought out replies.

Something relevant that should have been in the OP - they were apparently very worried about the edge rushers the entire game. He did not reference that when speaking to the field goals, but seems like Schaub and Kubiak we worried about the D's ability to get to Schaub.

That may have factored into the conservative play/attitude.
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Old 12-17-2012   #16
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Solid post Hervoyel. I agree with everything you said, except, I believe that person has to be Matt Schaub. No two ways about it.

He's the QB, he runs the offense. I don't mean that he needs to be Tom Brady. I don't think he needs to run up the stats. He needs to be the leader.

I know, you'll have some guys coming in here & saying to a T the guys in the locker room point towards Matt Schaub being the leader of the offense, but he needs to take it to another level.

When we need a play, Matt should be able to demand it from his guys & they should deliver. If that's not happening, he's not the guy we need.

He's not elite, we know that. He's not clutch, we know that. He's not athletic, we know that. He doesn't have the strongest arm in the league, we know that. For him to be the guy to keep us in Super Bowl contention year in & year out, Matt has to be the kind of leader we see in the great QBs.

It's obvious when you look at Young, Montana, Aikman, Brady, Manning. He doesn't have to yell at the players on the field, those guys may have done that, but that's not what made them great leaders.

Is Schaub the leader of offense? Sure. Is he a great leader?

I think we're about to find out.
This passage right here is funny. In 1 breath you acknowledge that he isn't elite which all of us in here agree with im sure. But virtually everything you list after that is exactly what makes the elite qbs in the league......well......elite.

You can't have it both ways..he's either elite or he isn't & im sure you're not going to argue that he is elite.........................are you?
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Old 12-17-2012   #17
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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This passage right here is funny. In 1 breath you acknowledge that he isn't elite which all of us in here agree with im sure. But virtually everything you list after that is exactly what makes the elite qbs in the league......well......elite.

You can't have it both ways..he's either elite or he isn't & im sure you're not going to argue that he is elite.........................are you?
I'm saying he doesn't have the physical attributes that made those players great/elite. But he's going to have to have their leadership.
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Old 12-17-2012   #18
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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I'm saying he doesn't have the physical attributes that made those players great/elite. But he's going to have to have their leadership.
How good you are as a leader is often enhanced by what you have accomplished.

Last night Tom Brady's antics were characterized by Collinsworth & company as him being "fiery" and "competitive". Why? b/c he has 3 SB rings & a couple of MVP's.

Now, Jay Cutler/ Phillip Rivers do many of the same things that Brady did last night but both are seen by many as petulant whiny little children...why? the only logical answer is b/c they haven't won anything of significance.

So my question to you is what makes you think that Schaub's coaches & teammates don't think that he has that elite leadership you're speaking of? B/c you could argue his even-kiel attitude is the very definition of what an elite leader is supposed to be. It was the defining characteristic of tons of qb leaders over the years, namely Joe Montana of course.
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Old 12-17-2012   #19
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
Solid post Hervoyel. I agree with everything you said, except, I believe that person has to be Matt Schaub. No two ways about it.

He's the QB, he runs the offense. I don't mean that he needs to be Tom Brady. I don't think he needs to run up the stats. He needs to be the leader.

I know, you'll have some guys coming in here & saying to a T the guys in the locker room point towards Matt Schaub being the leader of the offense, but he needs to take it to another level.

When we need a play, Matt should be able to demand it from his guys & they should deliver. If that's not happening, he's not the guy we need.

He's not elite, we know that. He's not clutch, we know that. He's not athletic, we know that. He doesn't have the strongest arm in the league, we know that. For him to be the guy to keep us in Super Bowl contention year in & year out, Matt has to be the kind of leader we see in the great QBs.

It's obvious when you look at Young, Montana, Aikman, Brady, Manning. He doesn't have to yell at the players on the field, those guys may have done that, but that's not what made them great leaders.

Is Schaub the leader of offense? Sure. Is he a great leader?

I think we're about to find out.
I wonder how many teams would try to seek out and draft their franchise QB
based on those qualifications........has to make you think.......and now has got to leave you praying that we go into the playoffs with that last characteristic not only present, but strong enough to overcome all the other admitted "deficiencies."
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Old 12-17-2012   #20
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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I wonder how many teams would try to seek out and draft their franchise QB
based on those qualifications........has to make you think.......and now has got to leave you praying that we go into the playoffs with that last characteristic not only present, but strong enough to overcome all the other admitted "deficiencies."
If this offense was clicking like it was last year before Schaub got hurt, would you?

Then how many teams have started the season 12-2 & been in a position to get that franchise QB?

As far as the draft goes, I think we should continue to collect picks for the next couple of years until we have enough capital to move up & get our guy without hurting our future.

Yates doesn't run this offense as well as Schaub & I have no idea how Case would do, but I think we'd hold our head above water with them, if our Young OL starts to dominate next year like we did last year. Not that I want either guy to replace Schaub. Just saying if he doesn't complete next season, we'll be all right.
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