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Old 09-20-2012   #1
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Default An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

If you watch him closely, you can’t help but see that Peyton Manning is having difficulties with his throws. There are specific patterns that I have noticed watching and reviewing his play since the preseason. His passes to the right half of the field are, for the most part, weak and/or inaccurate. These observations have been consistent and predictable. Why predictable? If you followed my posts last year, you will remember that I explained that C7, the nerve involved in the disc problem that led to his surgeries, innervates the triceps muscle. This is the muscle which accounts for the extension of his elbow in the throwing motion. But what other muscle is innervated by C7?..........The major portion of the pectoralis major muscle. Why is this important? The pectoralis major muscle is one of the strongest muscles in the body. And it gives POWER to the throwing motion.

Go through the motion of pretending that you are throwing a football straight forward, while feeling your pectoralis. You will feel it contract as it strongly assists the upper arm moving forward and inward towards the chest. When you then throw across your chest to the left you will be able to obtain maximum force to the throw in that you receive maximum contribution from the pectoralis. When a throw is made to the right, the pectoralis contributes little to the power of the throw.

If you watched Manning last game, it was painfully obvious that any successful passes to the right were short and low. And in some of those, in order to compensate, he turned his whole body to his target so that it would be more equivalent to a straight ahead throw (using the assist of the pectoralis). All three of his interceptions came when he attempted intermediate passes to the right side of the field while facing the middle of the field. Those passes and others floated and/or were inaccurate. Remember, accuracy especially with longer passes require adequate power. Power or the lack thereof affects accuracy. The less power behind your throw, the less likely a longer throw will be delivered accurately and the more likely you will lose form and inappropriately overuse the core muscles in desperate attempt for additional forward power. This last game, Peyton’s greatest success was with throws across his body to the left side of the field as in the case of his sole TD pass.

[As an aside, C7 also innervates the latissimus dorsi muscle which can to a much lesser degree contribute to a forward pass.]

Keeping all of this in mind, a defense strategy that could serve Wade well would be to place maximum pass rush pressure to Peytons right and force him to the left of his back field. This way it would significantly lessen his chances of going to the right side with his passes and encourage him to focus mostly on the left side of the field. At the same time, Wade could concentrate his secondary’s attention to the left awaiting those passes. If Peyton chooses to still throw from his exaggerated left backfield position to the right side of the field, his throws would be that much weaker and more inaccurate, making them less likely to be completed and ripe for the pick. Forcing Peyton to pass to his right could be the Texans' path this Sunday to driving him to his Waterloo.
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Old 09-20-2012   #2
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

I understood all of that and my head still hurts


Great observation!!
...I think.
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Old 09-20-2012   #3
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

Wow Doc, I need to go back and really look at all that.

Very interesting, to say the least.
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Old 09-20-2012   #4
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

Another brilliant post from CND.

Cloak, is Manning's arm strength something that will improve over time?

Not sure if this has been discussed on the board already, but a friend told me he'd heard a doctor on the radio saying that Manning's still not 100% but his arm strength should be much better by the end of the season.
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Old 09-20-2012   #5
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

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Originally Posted by TexansFanatic View Post
Another brilliant post from CND.

Cloak, is Manning's arm strength something that will improve over time?

Not sure if this has been discussed on the board already, but a friend told me he'd heard a doctor on the radio saying that Manning's still not 100% but his arm strength should be much better by the end of the season.
Thank you, TF.

Dr. First on 610 was the one that was asked this question and gave that answer. Surprisingly, he made no further characterization or comments.

Nerve regeneration is a very unpredictable process. The rule of thumb is that by 2 years from the time of injury or repair, you will usually have attained your final return results. The longer between the time of injury to the relief of compression, the more atrophy of the target muscles and the more dubious the complete-to-previous condition regeneration. What needs to be kept in mind is that Manning's nerve root problems (compression) date back for years, with only temporizing incomplete "fixes" along the way before his definitive surgery. His last surgery was just over a year ago. How much irreversible permanent damage was done to the nerve and muscles by the time he finally had his last surgery, no one can truly quantify. But no doubt there has been some. You can develop muscle by exercising. But there has to be good innervation to send continuous signal to the muscle for that development. And there is very little that can reliably or predictably facilitate the regeneration of a nerve. He may improve some through the season. Or he may not improve beyond what he is today. But, applying my pretty extensive experiences in treating traumatic nerve injuries to what I know about his history and with what I see now, I find it very unlikely that he gets all that much closer to what he used to be. Though only time will tell.

I wish I could answer your question more definitively.
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Old 09-20-2012   #6
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

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I wish I could answer your question more definitively.
It was a great answer and I appreciate it.
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Old 09-21-2012   #7
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

Great stuff, Dr. CND! MSR

Now we need to send this over to Wade.
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Old 09-21-2012   #8
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Thank you, TF.

Dr. First on 610 was the one that was asked this question and gave that answer. Surprisingly, he made no further characterization or comments.

Nerve regeneration is a very unpredictable process. The rule of thumb is that by 2 years from the time of injury or repair, you will usually have attained your final return results. The longer between the time of injury to the relief of compression, the more atrophy of the target muscles and the more dubious the complete-to-previous condition regeneration. What needs to be kept in mind is that Manning's nerve root problems (compression) date back for years, with only temporizing incomplete "fixes" along the way before his definitive surgery. His last surgery was just over a year ago. How much irreversible permanent damage was done to the nerve and muscles by the time he finally had his last surgery, no one can truly quantify. But no doubt there has been some. You can develop muscle by exercising. But there has to be good innervation to send continuous signal to the muscle for that development. And there is very little that can reliably or predictably facilitate the regeneration of a nerve. He may improve some through the season. Or he may not improve beyond what he is today. But, applying my pretty extensive experiences in treating traumatic nerve injuries to what I know about his history and with what I see now, I find it very unlikely that he gets all that much closer to what he used to be. Though only time will tell.

I wish I could answer your question more definitively.
Good stuff... Thanks for posting.
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Old 09-21-2012   #9
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

Well, if he's weak on one side, that's where I put Watt. He can't throw over a hill, much less a mountain.

I really think we'll see Wade dial up a couple cuckoo-bananas-blitzes and we'll see Manning pull his fetal move a couple times. Yay. My favorite!
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Old 09-21-2012   #10
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Thank you, TF.

Dr. First on 610 was the one that was asked this question and gave that answer. Surprisingly, he made no further characterization or comments.

Nerve regeneration is a very unpredictable process. The rule of thumb is that by 2 years from the time of injury or repair, you will usually have attained your final return results. The longer between the time of injury to the relief of compression, the more atrophy of the target muscles and the more dubious the complete-to-previous condition regeneration. What needs to be kept in mind is that Manning's nerve root problems (compression) date back for years, with only temporizing incomplete "fixes" along the way before his definitive surgery. His last surgery was just over a year ago. How much irreversible permanent damage was done to the nerve and muscles by the time he finally had his last surgery, no one can truly quantify. But no doubt there has been some. You can develop muscle by exercising. But there has to be good innervation to send continuous signal to the muscle for that development. And there is very little that can reliably or predictably facilitate the regeneration of a nerve. He may improve some through the season. Or he may not improve beyond what he is today. But, applying my pretty extensive experiences in treating traumatic nerve injuries to what I know about his history and with what I see now, I find it very unlikely that he gets all that much closer to what he used to be. Though only time will tell.

I wish I could answer your question more definitively.
Wait... what?
Doesn't that mean Peyton has been operating at less than 100% during this time?? Soooo if he's had this issue for years, then he's used to functioning at less than 100%, right.

Worry meter just went up a notch.
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Old 09-21-2012   #11
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

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Wait... what?
Doesn't that mean Peyton has been operating at less than 100% during this time?? Soooo if he's had this issue for years, then he's used to functioning at less than 100%, right.

Worry meter just went up a notch.
I may be reading wrong here, but doc may be referring to the way Manning refused treatment from anyone but his trusted Colts medical staff in the 11 offseason, of course due to the lockout he wasn't able to see them and as such allowed his condition to worsen over the offseason before getting it treated.
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Old 09-21-2012   #12
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I'd put KJ on the side of the field where Manning's throws are weakest. I'd put Joseph to the left where Manning has his best success. KJ could have a career game off that strategy.

Crash the left side of the line and force Manning to roll to his right. Make sure we're covering the shallow escape route stuff in the middle of the field, the little curl routes and such that McGahee and Tamme will run (to bail out Manning).

Someone somewhere mentioned in camp, I think it was Mort from ESPN, that Manning couldn't throw to his right very well. CND's analysis confirms it.

Even in the preseason game I watched, I could see that his throws to the right were taking forever to get there. Stuff to the left had mustard on it.

Now let's see if Wade will capitalize on it or think he doesn't have to strategize for it. I hope he does. I hope they're benching Manning by the half.
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Old 09-21-2012   #13
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You nailed it, CnD...thinking back on the game i do remember him being weaker to his right...

Question: would his grip suffer from any of this?
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Old 09-21-2012   #14
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

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You nailed it, CnD...thinking back on the game i do remember him being weaker to his right...

Question: would his grip suffer from any of this?
This is what I posted on 8/25/11 when I found out that he had a C7 problem.:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
It has been reported that Manning had a compression of the C7 nerve root level. This nerve root controls the movement and the strength of the finger flexors, and the wrist flexors and the elbow extender. How do you throw a football if your hand can’t grip, your wrist can’t flex and your elbow can’t extend efficiently. You can compensate and throw a football with a bum biceps ala Favre. But you aren’t ever going to look much better than a Pop Warner QB, with a bum triceps.
Furthermore, there are also lesser important contributions in the innervation of the wrist extensors and the pronator muscle.........a muscle which allows palm up to palm down twisting (pronating) of the wrist, a motion you may want to use to direct the ball outwardly to the right.
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Old 09-21-2012   #15
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

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This is what I posted on 8/25/11 when I found out that he had a C7 problem.:



Furthermore, there are also lesser important contributions in the innervation of the wrist extensors and the pronator muscle.........a muscle which allows palm up to palm down twisting (pronating) of the wrist, a motion you may want to use to direct the ball outwardly to the right.
Could his condition regress?
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Old 09-21-2012   #16
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

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Could his condition regress?

I don't know that it regresses. But how much he improves if at all, as I've stated before, is not predictable. While he has nerves that are not functioning properly, the weakened muscles and any compensating muscles are likely to be exposed to overuse and progressive fatigue and therefore further weakening.
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Old 09-21-2012   #17
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Thanks CnD...was talking with a coworker about his arm strength, and I suggested it could also be his grip based on what the ball did a few times...
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Old 09-21-2012   #18
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

Dare I say...

The lack of the real refs may help the Texans. We should be less likely
to see Manning treated like fine China, as we've been accustomed to
(i.e. the b.s. call a couple years ago against Antonio Smith for his
phantom hit on the helmet of Peyton.)

I hope Peyton's got an extra bottle of Icy Hot in his medicine cabinet,
cause his neck is gonna be hurtin.'
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Old 09-21-2012   #19
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

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Dare I say...

The lack of the real refs may help the Texans. We should be less likely
to see Manning treated like fine China, as we've been accustomed to
(i.e. the b.s. call a couple years ago against Antonio Smith for his
phantom hit on the helmet of Peyton.)

I hope Peyton's got an extra bottle of Icy Hot in his medicine cabinet,
cause his neck is gonna be hurtin.'
Actually, I think it's exactly the opposite. With these replacement refs, the hometeams are getting more of the calls.
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Old 09-24-2012   #20
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Default Re: An Observation and Analysis of a Specific Potential Manning Weakness

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Actually, I think it's exactly the opposite. With these replacement refs, the hometeams are getting more of the calls.
Seems like it to me too.
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