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Old 12-12-2004   #1
HJam72
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Default Fumble!?!?!???

OK, Robinson hits Manning while simultaneously hitting the ball in Manning's throwing hand. The ball comes out. First, the refs rule that Manning was in the motion of throwing. Capers wants a review. The refs then find that Manning was NOT in the motion of throwing and that Dunta did, in fact, knock the ball out, completely of his own doing. BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER. COLTS STILL GET THE BALL BACK.

I'm not arguing over whether this is or is not a game breaking play. I just want to know who the COMPLETE MORON is who came up with that rule. Am I missing something? Did the Colts actually recover the fumble, because that's not what I saw? I am wrong about something in that first paragraph?

Here's what I think. I think it's a perfect example of how the league is leaning more and more toward the offense in every way. If you fall down sometime in the next minute or two after a fumble then you were down by contact. If you hit the QB even a split second after he throws a pass, then it's roughing the passer. If you take 3 steps and get outside the tackle, then you can throw the ball backwards and into the stands behind your own endzond, but that's still not intentional grounding. If you even sneeze on a receiver, then it's a freaking 45 yard penalty. The man got his ego chopped off and fumbled the ball!!! Don't give it back to him, for crying out loud. He doesn't need the refs to help him.
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Old 12-12-2004   #2
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Whistle blows. Play dead. Nothing matters once they blow their whistles.
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Old 12-12-2004   #3
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Uh-huh. Makes sense. They need to start firing referees for stopping plays like that all the time. It happens way too much. That's a huge play and, in closer competitions, it could be a game breaker.

I swear, it's like they blow the whistle so they won't have to decipher what's going to happen next. Oh, it's happening to fast and I need a time-out to think about it---tweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! Who cares if you just gave the offense their life back.

Here's the thing. They gotta let that play continue. The ref thinks he saw forward motion, but you can't tell me he was really certain about it. He blew the whistle to try and stop EVERYBODY from jumping on the ball. They need to let the play continue and then allow for the review. Just because you sorta, kinda, mighta, thought you saw that the play was over doesn't mean you have to always blow the whistle immediately and screw the defense. When are they gonna start blowing the whistle when a guys wide open with the ball at the 50? Hey, he's gonna score anyway. Let's just save him all that running and give him 6 points.

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Old 12-12-2004   #4
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Actually, it's not quite the conspiracy you think it is. Last week (I think), the same thing happened to the Colts defense. They forced the fumble, but it was called an incomplete pass and the whistle was blown. Play over. Coach Dungy challenged, and it was ruled a fumble, but since the whistle had blown, it went back to the offense. The only thing the Colts got was the loss of the yards and the down.

In the game today, the pass was called a forward pass. There is no reason to let the play progress at that point, and to protect the players the whistle is blown and the play is stopped. Therefore the defense could not recover.

It's unfortunate, but that's the only way it can work. The recovery was made AFTER the whistle, therefore not made when the play was active.

This is one of the anomolies given to us by replay. And it has to be that way. Do I think that was a fumble? Yep! Do I think the refs blew the call? Yep! Did they do the right thing with the possession? Yep, they did the only thing they could.

It's an imperfect world. There were enough calls tat went the wrong way on BOTH sides. I know that sucks for you all, but they did what they had to do with the possession once the call was reversed.

Great game today, guys! You all have been down on your team all week leading up to this game. They're a good team, and the pieces are starting to fall into place. That's the lowest score the Colts have had this year! You've got some good times ahead! See you next year! Good luck through the rest of the season, and here's to NO INJURIES!
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Old 12-12-2004   #5
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According to the rules, they did what they had to do. You THINK the plays over , so you HAVE to blow the whistle. It's a stupid rule. All the players are already in the midst of battle, so to speak. It's not like somebody's gonna get caught off guard and get hurt. The rule needs to change, and, yes, then they need to come down hard on refs who end plays that aren't over.

It's not right when it happens to the Colts, or us, or anybody else. It needs to stop. The end of an important play, or any play, should never be decided by the fact that a REFEREE made a mistake during the play. I know it happens, but it's just absurd. They shouldn't be getting all whistle happy until the ball is either out of bounds or underneath somebody who's laying on the ground (or in the endzone).
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Old 12-12-2004   #6
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The Colts were, however, the better team today (no big surprise). Good luck in the playoffs.
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Old 12-13-2004   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coltsrock
Actually, it's not quite the conspiracy you think it is. Last week (I think), the same thing happened to the Colts defense. They forced the fumble, but it was called an incomplete pass and the whistle was blown. Play over. Coach Dungy challenged, and it was ruled a fumble, but since the whistle had blown, it went back to the offense. The only thing the Colts got was the loss of the yards and the down.

In the game today, the pass was called a forward pass. There is no reason to let the play progress at that point, and to protect the players the whistle is blown and the play is stopped. Therefore the defense could not recover.

It's unfortunate, but that's the only way it can work. The recovery was made AFTER the whistle, therefore not made when the play was active.

This is one of the anomolies given to us by replay. And it has to be that way. Do I think that was a fumble? Yep! Do I think the refs blew the call? Yep! Did they do the right thing with the possession? Yep, they did the only thing they could.

It's an imperfect world. There were enough calls tat went the wrong way on BOTH sides. I know that sucks for you all, but they did what they had to do with the possession once the call was reversed.

Great game today, guys! You all have been down on your team all week leading up to this game. They're a good team, and the pieces are starting to fall into place. That's the lowest score the Colts have had this year! You've got some good times ahead! See you next year! Good luck through the rest of the season, and here's to NO INJURIES!

oh yeah and i suppose that call really hurt the colts chances of winning huh
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Old 12-13-2004   #8
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Originally Posted by Vinny
Whistle blows. Play dead. Nothing matters once they blow their whistles.
Well that explains it, but it doesn't make it a good call. Why exactly was a whistle blown at that point in the play? Absolutely miserable call. Of course it matched the "Manning was down by stop of forward progress" call--anyone want to seriously say that if Manning had gotten a pass off as he was attempting to do at the three yard line that the refs wouldn't have called it a completion?--by the way the freakin whistle hadn't been blown yet on that play.
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Old 12-13-2004   #9
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
Well that explains it, but it doesn't make it a good call. Why exactly was a whistle blown at that point in the play? Absolutely miserable call. Of course it matched the "Manning was down by stop of forward progress" call--anyone want to seriously say that if Manning had gotten a pass off as he was attempting to do at the three yard line that the refs wouldn't have called it a completion?--by the way the freakin whistle hadn't been blown yet on that play.
Hey if the whistle blew, then the team shouldn't lose a timeout and review. It should have been an unreviewable call.

I was upset about the non-call on the intentional grounding by Manning. It was weird they called it a sack when the guy hadn't even touched him yet.
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Old 12-13-2004   #10
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Default 2 Words........Ed Hoculi

Even the name sounds bad, have watched enuff games to know Ed Hoculi and Tom Brown (bozo from Jets game) are 2 of the worst refs in NFL. They consistently blow calls and then when asked to review ( don't we all wish when our boss complained could review our own mistakes) they always uphold their blown calls. NFL will be a joke as long as they do not properly utilize instant replay and free up coaches to help them....look at MLB twice they stopped play and reviewed and made the right call (and not for pizza).


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Old 12-13-2004   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDTexansFan
Even the name sounds bad, have watched enuff games to know Ed Hoculi and Tom Brown (bozo from Jets game) are 2 of the worst refs in NFL. They consistently blow calls and then when asked to review ( don't we all wish when our boss complained could review our own mistakes) they always uphold their blown calls. NFL will be a joke as long as they do not properly utilize instant replay and free up coaches to help them....look at MLB twice they stopped play and reviewed and made the right call (and not for pizza).
That and don't let the refs be like gods out on the field.
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Old 12-14-2004   #12
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Hochuli sucks Toro's "mountain oysters". His favoritism is more obvious than those extreme makeover pecs and bi-sex....errr um.. ..bi-ceps that he displays. It's a disgrace for someone like him to blatantly make bad calls. These refs' calls should be over-ruled when they are as obvious as they are. Respect my arse..if you don't repremand these Ref's calls such as some of the calls Hochi has made in the last few games, it becomes rampant.
Refs like him play God on the field because the NFL allows them to do so, and they don't have the skills to be real football players.
Note: Not all Refs are biased and make bad calls. But whe the obvious stares you right in the face, there should be some type of grievance that coaches can take to overturn the ruling of the refs, even after the game. Penalize them monetarily or with suspension for making crappy calls, especially after the call has been reviewed and they stick to their guns when it is so obvious that they blew the call.
Assinine calls like this cause a Team to either lose a game or lose momentum.
Don't let these guys determine the outcome of the game.
A Ref should be impartial, which is more than I can say for this Hoochie butthole. Somebody poke him with a fork and deflate his ego. He's way over-done.
I can accept calls against our team when they are legit. Open your eyes Hooch or are you somebody's biatch!?!

Last edited by whotex8; 12-14-2004 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 12-14-2004   #13
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A Ref should be impartial
What about when Hochuli left his mike on while explaining a call to the coaching staff and he turned to Peyton and said "you know you can't spike the ball out of the shotgun, right?" To which Peyton said "Uh....yeah." It wasn't audible in the stadium but the guys in the booth heard it. That would be called coaching, and refs shouldn't really be having those conversations with players. Now if he would be explaining it after it happened, yes, but not before.

Bad calls happen. Tennessee got a really bad one last night. It doesn't only happen to us.
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Old 12-14-2004   #14
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Look...it was bad call...no offense intended, but if the calls went the Texans way, all of you who are FURIOUS would not be complaining. While stationed in Cali, I got the opportunity to try my hand at refereeing. Granted, this was basketball, but the point that I am going to make is on the same premise.

We started ref'ing games on film. We studied the rule books, and took test after test after test. We were graded, and the top 10% of us moved on to ref actual games. We started with HS basketball games, and the top performers there went on to the college ranks, and so on and so on. Those HS games were already at a speed that it was difficult to make the right calls. I could not imagine what the college game was like. Fortunately for me, my military commitments would not give me the time off to ref the college games, and I had to withdraw from the program.

What that experience gave me was a GREAT understanding and sympathy for referees, and the job that they do. I no longer question the umpire in my softball leagues, because he is human, and prone to make mistakes. If I get a bad call in my pickup b-ball leagues, I don't complain...I just go to the other end of the floor.

Oh, and for you conspiracy theorists who think the NFL is "in on" PM's getting the record, I'm about as tired of that garbage as I am of Reggie Miller's crying to the NBA about small market teams. And Uncle Reg is probably one of my favorite all time basketball players. If PM were the Texans QB, you would be defending him with all your fingertips on these message boards.

Great game Sunday. The Texans showed me that they are a force to be reckoned with...and I think this off season will be different from previous ones. I think you'll see a lot more Carr and the offense working together to get the rapport that Manning has with his receivers.
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