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Old 07-21-2013   #1
Texans_Chick
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Default One post that has everything about Schaub

OK, I did this post called, "The Matt Schaub Compendium" to talk about Schaub's 2012 in the context of his entire career.

Today's post over at the new Ultimate Texans location is entitled, "On Matt Schaub, elite quarterbacks, QB rankings, clutch and the ‘Schaubnado’"

The first post was more of a focus on the numbers.

The second post is more putting Schaub in the context of quarterback debate stuff that tends to go on in July when there is no real news.

Concepts like elite, quarterback rankings, and does clutch even exist as a reproducible skill?

If you are of the sort who thinks, "No way the Texans can win the Super Bowl with Schaub," there's a few data points in there that are the equivalent of a hug.

And once again, thanks to all who click on this link and share it on social networks. The more popular my stuff is at the Chronicle while hosted at that location, the more likely the powers that be will continue to let me do my thing.

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Old 07-21-2013   #2
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

Steph, this has to be up there with one of your best efforts. It has covered all aspects of the "elite" story and of the Matt Schaub story while presenting no apparent biases. Thanks for another great read.


This quote seems to reflect one of my main long-standing concerns (everyone here is aware of my more acute concerns regarding his foot) with regard to a QB type such as Schaub:

Quote:
There are some quarterbacks who can win, despite having less than ideal offensive lines, a parade of different offensive players around them, bad running games, bad defenses. And they have done it over many years.
With all of Schaub's known limitations, we have always had to worry about ALL other aspects of the team to be "clicking" almost perfectly for a good outcome. We are forever concentrating on drafting and dealing to try to avoid ANY weaknesses on D or O. When you have that one, strong, consistent QB, it makes it so much more simple to deal with easier-to-"plug-in interchangeable" positions in numbers, doing so with non-elite players, than forever year-to-year being forced to keep your team "together" by seeking a myriad of strong players at virtually every other position.

Again, great article, Steph.
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Old 07-21-2013   #3
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

Very well researched article. I still don't like Schaub, but I acknowledge that he was not the sole reason for our dramatic crash at the end of the season. I still think Kubiak is the biggest problem we have on this team. If he doesn't change the offense to allow for more dynamism then I think we're doomed to repeat last year's results. Secondly, the defense has to play better and not give up big plays. Unfortunately, I don't think this defense will be very good as there are critical holes everywhere. I'm still not convinced Cushing will be as effective and we don't have another quality ILB next to him. Our OLBs don't give me any confidence and we have Earl Mitchell as the NT. Of course Ed Reed is a huge question mark and it's looking more and more like that the FO screwed up. Anyway, Schaub can have the best year of his career this year, but it won't matter if the whole team doesn't step up.
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Old 07-21-2013   #4
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....

Does he make players around him better???

In Schaub's case the answer is a resounding 'NO'. He is a weak link on the offense that has to be compensated for by great players that bail him out. Good NFL QB's have the reverse effect. They make plays off-schedule, improvise and instill confidence into the offensive unit. Schaub accomplishes none of the above and counts on his teammates to make him look adequate.
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Old 07-21-2013   #5
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

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Originally Posted by the wonger need food View Post
Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....
I'm sorry, but LOL!
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Old 07-21-2013   #6
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

Just to add to the previous post, I'd like to see all those QB scouting reports with one question and a Y/N checkbox.

I'm not remotely qualified to evaluate QB's, but even I understand that having a subjective, non-measurable "does he make his teammates better?" as the only, or even a major evaluation category is kind of silly.
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Old 07-21-2013   #7
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

Quote:
Originally Posted by the wonger need food View Post
Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....

Does he make players around him better???

In Schaub's case the answer is a resounding 'NO'. He is a weak link on the offense that has to be compensated for by great players that bail him out. Good NFL QB's have the reverse effect. They make plays off-schedule, improvise and instill confidence into the offensive unit. Schaub accomplishes none of the above and counts on his teammates to make him look adequate.

OTOH, last year the Texans won 12 regular season games with rotation at Oline. Most teams with such issues at guard, tackle aren't winning many games.
There's exactly one high pick on the Oline, and most stat people believe a big part of low sack stats are on the QB.

Most of the high picks for the Texans have been on the defensive side of the ball. Basically, Scahub over years has run an offense of Andre Johnson, Duane Brown and an island of misfit toys that weren't draft day darlings.

Given they've had an above average offense for most of Schaub's years, I'm thinking a case can be made that he causes others to elevate their games.

You can only do so much bailing by great players. Ask Larry Fitzgerald how hard it is to make a difference if you don't have a guy who can get you the ball. I think he'd kill for a QB as good as Schaub.

In other words, I'm not saying elitey but true elitety rare. Most fanbases are sore with aspects of their QBs game--just normal strengths/weaknesses things and that QB play is so spotlighted in losses.
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Old 07-21-2013   #8
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

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OTOH, last year the Texans won 12 regular season games with rotation at Oline. Most teams with such issues at guard, tackle aren't winning many games.
There's exactly one high pick on the Oline, and most stat people believe a big part of low sack stats are on the QB.

Most of the high picks for the Texans have been on the defensive side of the ball. Basically, Scahub over years has run an offense of Andre Johnson, Duane Brown and an island of misfit toys that weren't draft day darlings.

Given they've had an above average offense for most of Schaub's years, I'm thinking a case can be made that he causes others to elevate their games.

You can only do so much bailing by great players. Ask Larry Fitzgerald how hard it is to make a difference if you don't have a guy who can get you the ball. I think he'd kill for a QB as good as Schaub.

In other words, I'm not saying elitey but true elitety rare. Most fanbases are sore with aspects of their QBs game--just normal strengths/weaknesses things and that QB play is so spotlighted in losses.

Schaub has had plenty of talent around him, misfit or not. Owen Daniels, Arian, Myers, Leach, Briseil, Winston, Dreessen... all very good players that a great QB could elevate(ed) to an even higher level.

Look at Andrew Luck winning a ton of games with a horrible o-line. He made Vick Ballard, TY Hilton, Lavon Brazil and Dwayne Allen borderline All Pros because he made them better.

Players in the Houston offense have to succeed in spite of their QB. Andre Johnson doesn't score TD's because he has to slow down and wait for the defense on every pass. He can't score in the red zone because his QB doesn't have the touch to take advantage of his height/physicality/vertical.

I agree that Schaub is serviceable and isn't going to necessarily lose a lot of games for his team, but he's not gonna win many on his own either. He may be capable of getting hot at the end of the year and help get this team to a Super Bowl, but the stars will need to align perfectly with the defense playing well, few injuries, good game planning and good old fashion luck. However, he is never going to put a team on his back and take them there like the great ones do.

The most concerning thing i saw last year was his shakiness in the pocket, especially toward the end of the season. He looked like David Carr on way too many plays and just withered under pressure instead of trying to make a special play. If a play gets off schedule it is over. If down/distance gets out of whack or there's a penalty the drive is over. Schaub just doesn't possess any "playmaker" skills that good QB's need to be successful when it counts.
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Old 07-22-2013   #9
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

Quote:
Originally Posted by the wonger need food View Post
Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....

Does he make players around him better???

In Schaub's case the answer is a resounding 'NO'. He is a weak link on the offense that has to be compensated for by great players that bail him out. Good NFL QB's have the reverse effect. They make plays off-schedule, improvise and instill confidence into the offensive unit. Schaub accomplishes none of the above and counts on his teammates to make him look adequate.
I'm not saying Schaub does make the players around him better, but what's your reasoning for believing he doesn't do this? I don't see any evidence that back up this case.

On offense, we only have ONE big acquisition... and that was Andre Johnson. Sure, you can argue Duane is one too, but we all know he was a big reach at the end of the 1st round. So who gets credit for making 4th round pick OD, cheap FA Wade Smith, cheap trade Chris Myers, UDFA Arian Foster pro-bowlers? Who gets the credit for making Duane Brown the best LT in the game? Were all of these guys simply underrated and Rick Smith is brilliant? Does the coaching staff get all of the credit?

How about the players that left? Did they get significantly better since supposedly Matt Schaub has been bringing them down? Briesel got a big contract to leave, but just had a horrible season with the Raiders. Winston was regarded as one of the best RTs in the game, but was just cut by the Chiefs after one season. Kevin Walter's best seasons are easily with the Texans. David Andersen couldn't stick with another team after he left the Texans.

Then there's Jacoby Jones and Joel Dressen, whom have left for better QBs. Did their production go up? Not really, still about the same.

So here's my question... where's the proof he makes the players around him worse???
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Old 07-22-2013   #10
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

Quote:
Originally Posted by the wonger need food View Post
Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....

Does he make players around him better???

In Schaub's case the answer is a resounding 'NO'. He is a weak link on the offense that has to be compensated for by great players that bail him out. Good NFL QB's have the reverse effect. They make plays off-schedule, improvise and instill confidence into the offensive unit. Schaub accomplishes none of the above and counts on his teammates to make him look adequate.
In games Andre Johnson misses, the Texans passing game still holds up relatively well, compared to other type flight wrs missing games.

This indicates:

- Schaub keeps the team going. He still makes due with what he has and isnt as reliant on star talent as it seems.

- Its all Kubiak's system. System coach with system QB who isnt given room to "improvise

Or A little of both. Schaub may or may not be decent on his own, but whats it matter if his improvising is reigned in and his defiences are masked? Schaub doesnt have Peyton Manninv pull to deviate into his own play style so itll always be kinda difficult to see the "raw Schaub" ability
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Old 07-23-2013   #11
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

Quote:
Originally Posted by the wonger need food View Post
Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....

Does he make players around him better???

In Schaub's case the answer is a resounding 'NO'. He is a weak link on the offense that has to be compensated for by great players that bail him out. Good NFL QB's have the reverse effect. They make plays off-schedule, improvise and instill confidence into the offensive unit. Schaub accomplishes none of the above and counts on his teammates to make him look adequate.
This post is terrible. Qb's that are a "resounding" weak link don't take their teams to the playoffs & put up the consistent numbers he has over his tenure here in houston without having some kind of positive effect on the players around them. But ok, i'll bite.....

was Flacco making players around him better when their offense was trash and inconsistent all last season? trash and inconsistent enough to get a guy regarded around the NFL as an offensive guru fired late in the season....which is pretty much unheard of in the NFL?

Was Flacco making guys around him better when he was completing less than 60% of his passes mid way thru the season & we proceeded to dismantle him when he came to reliant?

Was he making players around him better when he kept failing to get past Pittsburgh in the playoffs....and then later the Pats?

Wake up...He got on a nice run & rode it all the way to the SB...and as we've seen numerous times in the superbowl era, that can happen to any decent to good qb....See Eli Manning.

& If there's a qb whoose WR's make him look good & he depends on them to make him look "adequate" as you say, it's Joe Flacco. How many times did we see him just throw the ball up for grabs in the playoffs to guys that really weren't open and his WR's went up & made plays for him? Either that or the defense had a brain fart and allowed him to get away with crap that would've otherwise been a dead play or TO. I can think of at least 4 of those type of plays that were critical to their playoff run last year.


& for all the "off schedule" play making you guys keep speaking of...well, there's a guy in Dallas who tries to do that all the time....For whatever reason though, he's still not considered an elite qb.
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Old 07-22-2013   #12
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Steph, this has to be up there with one of your best efforts. It has covered all aspects of the "elite" story and of the Matt Schaub story while presenting no apparent biases. Thanks for another great read.


This quote seems to reflect one of my main long-standing concerns (everyone here is aware of my more acute concerns regarding his foot) with regard to a QB type such as Schaub:



With all of Schaub's known limitations, we have always had to worry about ALL other aspects of the team to be "clicking" almost perfectly for a good outcome. We are forever concentrating on drafting and dealing to try to avoid ANY weaknesses on D or O. When you have that one, strong, consistent QB, it makes it so much more simple to deal with easier-to-"plug-in interchangeable" positions in numbers, doing so with non-elite players, than forever year-to-year being forced to keep your team "together" by seeking a myriad of strong players at virtually every other position.

Again, great article, Steph.
See, this is me. I call into sirius and I've said this a million times. To me, a qb in todays game have to be about to compensate for what the team lacks. A team can't be built with a qb who needs everything humming to win. Just rattle off the last 10 superbowls winning qbs and u will find holes on those teams,but the qb made up for it. I'm with team building,but u can't hide ur qb. There will be 5 plays in a game that are solely made by the qb. I've seen too many times when the 5 plays were not made. So unless the defense turns into the 2000 ravens,the line morphs into the hogs,aj goes back 6 yrs,daniels turns to sharpe,and the other wr turns into aj part 2,I don't think u can win a superbowl with schaub.
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Old 07-22-2013   #13
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

While Schaub has never been the "athletic" QB, I can't remember him looking as pudgy or out of shape as he did last season. At one point, I thought he was a new candidate for the BRO.

Not sure if this is accurate or not, or if it would even have to do with anything related... But I am hoping to see a Schaub that hit it hard in the gym this off season, something he was probably unable to last off season.
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Old 07-22-2013   #14
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

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While Schaub has never been the "athletic" QB, I can't remember him looking as pudgy or out of shape as he did last season. At one point, I thought he was a new candidate for the BRO.

Not sure if this is accurate or not, or if it would even have to do with anything related... But I am hoping to see a Schaub that hit it hard in the gym this off season, something he was probably unable to last off season.
I can get on board this one.

Seeing how he lived in a Rascal for most of the offseason prior to 2012, should have been expected.
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Old 07-22-2013   #15
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

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See, this is me. I call into sirius and I've said this a million times. To me, a qb in todays game have to be about to compensate for what the team lacks. A team can't be built with a qb who needs everything humming to win. Just rattle off the last 10 superbowls winning qbs and u will find holes on those teams,but the qb made up for it. I'm with team building,but u can't hide ur qb. There will be 5 plays in a game that are solely made by the qb. I've seen too many times when the 5 plays were not made. So unless the defense turns into the 2000 ravens,the line morphs into the hogs,aj goes back 6 yrs,daniels turns to sharpe,and the other wr turns into aj part 2,I don't think u can win a superbowl with schaub.
We won 13 games in 2012.


Are you telling me we had no holes on our team?
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Old 07-22-2013   #16
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

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We won 13 games in 2012.


Are you telling me we had no holes on our team?
Actually, we only won 12 games in 2012
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Old 07-22-2013   #17
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

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Actually, we only won 12 games in 2012
Thank you.
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Old 07-22-2013   #18
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

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Originally Posted by HOU-TEX View Post
Actually, we only won 12 games in 2012
I believe he was including the post-season.
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Old 07-22-2013   #19
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

Flacco may have had a somewhat sub-par season, but he got it done in the playoffs when it mattered. You have to give him credit for that, otherwise the alternative would be the unforgiveable here in H-town: crediting someone like Jacoby Jones for the SB ring (and yes he did play a part in it much to your dismay).
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Old 07-22-2013   #20
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Default Re: One post that has everything about Schaub

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Originally Posted by HouTx11 View Post
Flacco may have had a somewhat sub-par season, but he got it done in the playoffs when it mattered. You have to give him credit for that, otherwise the alternative would be the unforgiveable here in H-town: crediting someone like Jacoby Jones for the SB ring (and yes he did play a part in it much to your dismay).
Go back & look how this started. The thought was thrown out there that Flacco is a better QB than Schaub & they used Flacco's play-off numbers as proof.

His play off numbers were better than Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady's, Peyton Mannings, & Drew Brees (since he didn't play). Are we going to say Flacco is better than those guys?

No.

Matt Schaub has consistently put up "elite" type numbers, Flacco hasn't. I think Schaub understands the game, his offenses, opposing defenses, & his team... more than Flacco does.

Remember back when there was a lot of noise coming out of Baltimore, how the defensive players were "relieved" that the offense will finally carry their own weight?

Ever remember anything like that in Houston?

I guarantee you, Flacco's offensive coordinator will come under fire within the next two years.
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