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Old 02-20-2013   #43
deucetx
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
All rookies are going to display flaws when coming to the NFL. Whether his name is Joe Haden, Patrick Patterson, Kyle Wilson, or Kareem Jackson.
Well...that is sort of a no kidding comment. Had little to do with your point though. Your point was players around him affecting his ability and at corner and for the issues he had that was not true and tru80's point was KJ was not as NFL ready as the Texans touted. Oh and you are rather very wrong about Haden. He was a top corner from start and is a top definition of NFL ready.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
First of all, the "didn't turn his head around" is overplayed by guys who don't know what they are looking at. It's called pass interference. If you don't touch the guy, it's not interference no matter where your head is. You won't find a coach that won't teach a DB how to play a receiver face to face.
Overplayed? Umm...no, it is not. It is part of the position. Saying something is overplayed when it is a basic part of developing at the position is quite the stretch and making excuses. It is an essential part of playing the position. You are taught this from peewee (if the coach knows anything) how to run with the receiver and when to look for the ball and the timing which were things KJ lacked that once again...had nothing to do with the personnel around him like you were trying to state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
There is a time to look for the ball & there is a time to play the receiver. There is also a time when the player should play the ball but if that time has passed, he should play the reciever. Rookies find themselves in the latter situation way too often, but as long as they don't touch the receiver, it's all good. The ref may call it, but in the film room the coach is going to say, "You should have turned there, but you didn't. You recovered fine, don't worry about the ref."
Would love to meet a coach that will just brush it off like that since I have yet to talk to one that does and my secondary coaches sure didn't. We are talking passes into the deep third which means long gains. A coach that brushes it off like that is not developing the player. It is not 'all good' if you do not turn around to find the ball time and time again which was the case. Of course there is a time to play the ball. It is what you are coached and taught from the start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Then as far as turning his hips..... you either got it or you don't. You're not going to take a guy who doesn't have it & teach it to him in three years. Learning how fast an NFL receiver will get on top of you, learning how fast an NFL receiver will blow right past you, learning how strong an NFL receiver is, learning how fast and strong an NFL receivers hands are, even the most NFL ready corner is going to have a learning curve here, regardless what his name is.
Yes, you can teach and work on a corner's fluid movements and how to better open themselves up even at that level. Why do you think they have secondary coaches? It isn't just to teach them coverages. It is to help them develop and this is a part that they are still taught in the NFL and worked on. Just like how QB's are still taught proper footwork though they should have learned it long ago. It's part of the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Do you not think Joe Haden, Kyle Wilson, and Patrick Peterson are better at those basic cornerback techniques now than they were when they were rookies? Do you think Glover Quin & Devin McCourty might not have that ability & maybe that's why they're playing safety now & not corner?
Of course they are. That wasn't the point of the convo. The point was how NFL ready was he when drafted. And you keep tossing names out there and aren't even close on the production some of them had their rookie year:

Joe Haden: 50.1 QB Rating; 53.2 catch percentage
Kyle Wilson (limited snaps as a nickle): 77.9 QB rating; 50 catch percentage
Patrick Peterson: 85 QB Rating; 59.3 catch percentage
Kareem Jackson: 111.8 QB Rating; 66.3 catch percentage

For comparison sake:

Devin McCourty (as a corner): 57 QB Rating; 55.6 catch percentage

Since 2010 no 1st round CB has had a higher QB rating than Kareem's rookie season and only Morris Claiborne who royally sucked this season for the boys (thankfully) had a higher catch percentage by by 3.3 (69.6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
If I've got Derrell Revis on one side of the field, then I've got help on my side of the field, I'm not on an Island as much as Kareem was. I'm able to face the QB longer & jump routes, and gamble. My mistakes won't look so bad, because someone is going to stop Roy Williams from running 70 yards to the endzone.
A corner is always on an island unless the defense rolls a safety your way to help you. If they do that, that means you have issues in your coverage and a handicap. As it is using Revis as a comparison is a stretch since he is the best lockdown corner since Deion Sanders and are rare finds as is. Kareem had basic defensive responsibilities no different than he has now with improved talent around him. Nothing has changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
If you watched Kareem play as a rookie, you could see he had speed, he had cover skills, he was physical at the line, & he was a sure tackler. He made some rookie mistakes, he got beat by some veteran receivers (& some not so veteran receivers). But if you only focused on the bad plays & did not pay attention to the good plays (& there were a lot more good plays), then yeah I can understand thinking he was the worst CB in the league.
Again, that has little to do with the convo you are having. You are having a specific convo about Kareems NFL readiness when drafted. And the stats I just showed you illustrate there weren't a lot more good plays as you are stating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
But to believe he went from the worst CB in the league to one of the best in 3 seasons... yeah, that was all coaching. I understand if you don't think he's one of the best, but he is.
Again...not the convo you were having. And yes, he was graded as one of the worse his rookie year. If I take the PFF grade he was 96th out of 100. He was also 10th in highest QB rating. He also was 5th in YAC allowed (highest of course) and 5th in yard per completion (16.2).

And since players do get development and improve then yes most likely coaching and experience helped him get better. Did he have tools to work with? Of course. But that doesn't mean he was NFL ready. There is a reason his coach said he was not ready for the jump and needed another year of learning and developing. Kareem came out anyway and we essentially made ourselves that key product for his development instead of him taking that year in college.

Apologies for long post but making excuses for poor play is just silly to me. He had a freaking horrible rookie season. There's nothing wrong with admitting that and that he wasn't as NFL ready as the Texans touted to sell him to fans. What is important is he did develop and improve each year. Nothing wrong with going back and saying he played like **** when he did play like it. Don't know why it is difficult for fans to admit it.
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