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srrono 04-29-2013 11:37 AM

Team Speed New Players
 
Looking at team speed of new players. Source for 40 times. NFLDRAFTSCOUT.com
Rookies

WR DeAndre Hopkins 4.51
WR Alan Bonner 4.50
S D.J.Swearinger 4.63
OLB Sam Montgomery 4.67
OLB Trevardo Williams 4.57
OT Brennan Williams 5.32
OT David Quessenberry 5.06
DT Chris Jones 5.25
TE Ryan Griffin 4.90

UDFA Class
CB Johnny Adams 4.43
CB A.J. Bouye 4.57
CB Travis Howard 4.63
S Orhian Johnson 4.56
S Jawanza Starling 4.56
DT Torlan Pittman 5.12
DE Earl Okine 5.18
ILB Justin Tuggle 4.88
LB Javicz Jones 4.73
LB Ja’Gared Davis 4.78
ILB Kenny Demens 4.85
OLB Evan Frierson 4.75
QB/TE Collin Klein 4.72
FB Zach Boren 4.90
RB Ray Graham 4.68
RB Dennis Johnson 4.49
RB Cierre Wood 4.46
WR Alec Lemon 4.56
WR Michael Smith 4.59
WR Uzoma Nwachukwu 4.50
WR Marlon Brown 4.52
OG Alex Kupper 5.36
OL Graham Pocic 5.26
OL Bryan Collins 5.15
OL Jon Opperud 5.22

P Andrew Shapiro NA

Players below 40 times I am still looking for. Will update as I find them.

DB Malik “Fig” James
DE Willie Jefferson
OL Dann O’Neil

76Texan 04-29-2013 11:43 AM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
The 40 time at pro days can fluctuate depending upon the source you read; besides, not all the surfaces are the same and the weather (field condition) varied, too.

Not to mention some players might not be 100%; some could have a little nagging hamstring.

eriadoc 04-29-2013 11:47 AM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Certain players play faster than their official 40-yd dash time. Arian Foster is one example. I believe Hopkins is another example.

Fili 04-29-2013 11:53 AM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eriadoc (Post 2159165)
Certain players play faster than their official 40-yd dash time. Arian Foster is one example. I believe Hopkins is another example.

Which is why I honestly don't care too much of 40 times...

eriadoc 04-29-2013 11:56 AM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fili (Post 2159174)
Which is why I honestly don't care too much of 40 times...

It's one small piece of a profile. But the fans and media give it way too much importance.

wolf123 04-29-2013 12:02 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eriadoc (Post 2159176)
It's one small piece of a profile. But the fans and media give it way too much importance.

Speed is important. No speed eliminates players, but speed doesn't make the player.

eriadoc 04-29-2013 12:09 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf123 (Post 2159180)
Speed is important. No speed eliminates players, but speed doesn't make the player.

I'm not sure if you're saying there's no speed limit that should eliminate players or if they have no speed, they'll be eliminated. Either way is dangerous thinking, IMO. Here's a quote from Bill Polian:

Quote:

“No. 1, the 40 times. If you are a believer in speed — and I am, and was — the 40 times are very important,” Polian said.

Polian said that while he wouldn’t get too obsessed with separating players by the hundredths of a second, there are certain 40 times that a player simply has to meet if he wants to be considered a high-level draft prospect at his position.

“There are benchmarks,” Polian said. “A guy doesn’t need to run a 4.42 as opposed to someone who runs a 4.43, but they have to get under the barrier that a club sets for each position. So a receiver who’s more than 4.5? His stock’s going to fall, and there’s no two ways about it.”
Jerry Rice ran a 4.71 40-yd dash at the combine. Where do you think Hopkins, who was as productive a college WR there was, would fall if he ran a 4.71? Oh, and Rice went to a small school, so that's another knock on him by today's draft standards.

I'm not comparing Hopkins to Rice (duh), but demonstrating how ridiculous it is to weight the official 40 times that much. It's just one small piece of a player profile. Guys like Polian (plenty more in the NFL) lend that piece too much weight.

wolf123 04-29-2013 12:13 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eriadoc (Post 2159185)
I'm not sure if you're saying there's no speed limit that should eliminate players or if they have no speed, they'll be eliminated. Either way is dangerous thinking, IMO. Here's a quote from Bill Polian:



Jerry Rice ran a 4.71 40-yd dash at the combine. Where do you think Hopkins, who was as productive a college WR there was, would fall if he ran a 4.71? Oh, and Rice went to a small school, so that's another knock on him by today's draft standards.

I'm not comparing Hopkins to Rice (duh), but demonstrating how ridiculous it is to weight the official 40 times that much. It's just one small piece of a player profile. Guys like Polian (plenty more in the NFL) lend that piece too much weight.

I'm saying what polian said. No matter how good they were at football at the college level if they don't have minimum speed, etc, it eliminates them. And having Speed doesn't magically turn you into a football player. IE. Troy Williams, and anyone the raiders draft.

eriadoc 04-29-2013 12:23 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf123 (Post 2159189)
I'm saying what polian said. No matter how good they were at football at the college level if they don't have minimum speed, etc, it eliminates them.

So you would have eliminated Jerry Rice, and probably Arian Foster, as he ran a 4.69 at his pro day (no combine).

4.61 – Wes Welker
4.62 – Brandon Lloyd
4.63 – Larry Fitzgerald
4.72 – Anquan Boldin
4.61 – T.J. Housmandzadeh
4.66 - Frank Gore

And just to put Hopkins' 4.57 into perpsective:

4.55 – Hines Ward
4.57 – Brandon Marshall
4.53 – Greg Jennings
4.54 – Chad Ochocinco

LINK

wolf123 04-29-2013 12:32 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eriadoc (Post 2159194)
So you would have eliminated Jerry Rice, and probably Arian Foster, as he ran a 4.69 at his pro day (no combine).

4.61 – Wes Welker
4.62 – Brandon Lloyd
4.63 – Larry Fitzgerald
4.72 – Anquan Boldin
4.61 – T.J. Housmandzadeh
4.66 - Frank Gore

And just to put Hopkins' 4.57 into perpsective:

4.55 – Hines Ward
4.57 – Brandon Marshall
4.53 – Greg Jennings
4.54 – Chad Ochocinco

LINK

I never said what speed I would put at which positions.

eriadoc 04-29-2013 12:36 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf123 (Post 2159198)
I never said what speed I would put at which positions.

Granted, but I feel like anyone holding that hard line stance probably doesn't consider a 4.7ish 40 time to be sufficient. If you do consider it to be sufficient, then you may as well not hold that hard line position, because you effectively don't. Now a guy that runs a 40 yard dash in 6 secs is not going to play WR in the NFL, but that guy didn't succeed at college ball either, so it's a moot point.

76Texan 04-29-2013 12:39 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
I think different systems value speed differently.

If you have a vertical offense, you want speed.
If you have a horizontal system, you want guys who can seperate from the defender by being physical and or quick in/out of their breaks.

wolf123 04-29-2013 12:49 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eriadoc (Post 2159202)
Granted, but I feel like anyone holding that hard line stance probably doesn't consider a 4.7ish 40 time to be sufficient. If you do consider it to be sufficient, then you may as well not hold that hard line position, because you effectively don't. Now a guy that runs a 40 yard dash in 6 secs is not going to play WR in the NFL, but that guy didn't succeed at college ball either, so it's a moot point.

To me anything over a 4.7 at WR and a 4.8 at running back. Yes, I might miss a once in a life time player but I know that statistically i'll be right at a much great percentage. Its easy to see statistical out liners and have them bias your opinion. I'm not looking to be right 100%.

“The measurables to us are very important,” Polian said at the combine. “There are guys we eliminate based on the measurables. Our studies show us over time that at a certain speed, it’s virtually impossible to play at a certain position in the National Football League and play well.”

The Pencil Neck 04-29-2013 12:56 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf123 (Post 2159207)
To me anything over a 4.7 at WR and a 4.8 at running back. Yes, I might miss a once in a life time player but I know that statistically i'll be right at a much great percentage. Its easy to see statistical out liners and have them bias your opinion. I'm not looking to be right 100%.

“The measurables to us are very important,” Polian said at the combine. “There are guys we eliminate based on the measurables. Our studies show us over time that at a certain speed, it’s virtually impossible to play at a certain position in the National Football League and play well.”

This gets back to something I was saying before the draft.

You've got to have a certain minimum level of an attribute. If you're a running back and your 40 time is 5.06 then it's probably not going to matter how good your vision is, how quick or shifty you are, or how good you are at reading the defense and picking your hole. You're just too slow to take advantage of it. I think a lot of teams place an upper limit for RBs at about 4.6.

It's probably like that for all positions and different teams probably set the minimum at different places depending on what they think they need from their individual scheme.

infantrycak 04-29-2013 01:08 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck (Post 2159209)
It's probably like that for all positions and different teams probably set the minimum at different places depending on what they think they need from their individual scheme.

I think they have red flag numbers not elimination numbers. Cull the ones above the limit and reexamine how they were successful - poor competition, the team around them or does the 40 time not define the performance. Our new TE purportedly runs about as fast as an OLmen according to his 40 time and then you see him outrun DB's for a 74 yd TD.

Rey 04-29-2013 01:25 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by infantrycak (Post 2159215)
I think they have red flag numbers not elimination numbers. Cull the ones above the limit and reexamine how they were successful - poor competition, the team around them or does the 40 time not define the performance. Our new TE purportedly runs about as fast as an OLmen according to his 40 time and then you see him outrun DB's for a 74 yd TD.

Yep...

I'd like to see them add a measurement to the combine and proday's for skill positions...

Let them run for 10 or so yards (basically a running start) and time them from that point on. So like a 50 or 55 yard run only start timing them at a certain point... Some guys with great 40 times are really explosive going from 0 to whatever but don't reach another gear. And some guys don't have that great get off, but once they are moving they really can get their top speed up there. And then you have those guys that can do both....

I think it'd be interesting to see the variances and contrasts...

I've seen a lot of players with slow 40's, but on tape/on the field they fly. Some guys just move faster once they are already in motion. JMO.

infantrycak 04-29-2013 01:37 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey (Post 2159228)
Let them run for 10 or so yards (basically a running start) and time them from that point on. So like a 50 or 55 yard run only start timing them at a certain point... Some guys with great 40 times are really explosive going from 0 to whatever but don't reach another gear. And some guys don't have that great get off, but once they are moving they really can get their top speed up there. And then you have those guys that can do both....

To illustrate your point. AJ came in 2nd in the fastest man competition at his 1st 2 pro bowls. He got beat out of the gate but it was pretty clear if the contest was 10 yards longer he would have won.

TD 04-29-2013 01:41 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eriadoc (Post 2159185)
Jerry Rice ran a 4.71 40-yd dash at the combine. Where do you think Hopkins, who was as productive a college WR there was, would fall if he ran a 4.71? Oh, and Rice went to a small school, so that's another knock on him by today's draft standards.

When I first saw that, I was like "no frikkin way". Jerry says the same.

Quote:

Former 49ers and Raiders receiver Jerry Rice wants to set the record straight: Remember that super-slow 40 time he posted almost a quarter-century ago, just before the 49ers drafted him out of Mississippi Valley State?
He was much faster than the 4.6 seconds cited in long-ago reports and his current Wikipedia bio. "No way. It was like 4.5," Rice said. LINK
Steve Largent is who came to mind. No doubt he was slow.

Still...I think slower guys who succeed are the exception rather than the rule.

eriadoc 04-29-2013 03:04 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TD (Post 2159235)
When I first saw that, I was like "no frikkin way". Jerry says the same.



Steve Largent is who came to mind. No doubt he was slow.

Still...I think slower guys who succeed are the exception rather than the rule.

Rice can say what he wants, but the official time is the official time. Now that addresses your last point, however. I think official times come back to damage players' draft prospects, when they could be having an off day, nagging hamstring issue, slow fingers on the scouts, etc. You often see discrepancies between the official time at the combine and a pro day, for example. Too much emphasis is placed on the 40 times. As alluded to above, you can watch a guy's tape and figure out who he can outrun and who he can't.

Also worth noting is the change in offensive philosophy about the time Rice came in. The WCO is the dominant type of offense today. These guys now all run crossing routes, drags, slants, picks, etc. A lot of the pure speed philosophy is left over from the '70s, when you didn't go over the middle.

TD 04-29-2013 03:50 PM

Re: Team Speed New Players
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eriadoc (Post 2159266)
Rice can say what he wants, but the official time is the official time.

Did they have official times back then? I honestly don't know. I just keep reading that "some scouts say" he ran a 4.6 and that his reported time seems to have gone up over the years.

Really has nothing to do with the overall point of the thread.....just seems like the only way he'd be that slow is if he ran in flip-flops. :cool:


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