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RT22 02-18-2013 11:14 PM

Texans Offense Question?
 
Do the Texans audible on offense? After rewatching the 2 playoff games it doesn't seem that they do very much if at all. What is your thoughts on this? Am I wrong on this?

ThaShark316 02-18-2013 11:26 PM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RT22 (Post 2127133)
Do the Texans audible on offense? After rewatching the 2 playoff games it doesn't seem that they do very much if at all. What is your thoughts on this? Am I wrong on this?


http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/17/26/60.../3/628x471.jpg = an audible.

And that pic from the AFC Divisional Game. Anytime you see that, that's an audible. I think they should do it more, but who's to say they don't...

tru80texan 02-18-2013 11:47 PM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThaShark316 (Post 2127137)
http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/17/26/60.../3/628x471.jpg = an audible.

And that pic from the AFC Divisional Game. Anytime you see that, that's an audible. I think they should do it more, but who's to say they don't...

Looks like he's in the shotgun & how do we know he's not signaling something in a hurry up offense or signaling for a silent count considering the crowd noise? Don't believe that photo is necessarily the best proof as I'm not quite sure that is an audible & it has been discussed by more then just the fans concerning the Texans lack of audibles.

Many, fans & some media, have claimed Kubiak is a control freak who has a short leash on Schaub & allows very limited audibles. Considering some of the play calls against certain defensive fronts that should've seemed doomed from the get go, its easy to believe that kubiak doesn't allow much changing of the plays he initially sends in. This is not the 1st time that the offense & its lack of adjustments by calling audibles has been questioned.

thunderkyss 02-19-2013 07:23 AM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
I found this article a while back.
Quote:

The key aspect: Griffin has options when he comes to the line of scrimmage. While the offensive line and backfield perform a running play, the receivers run a different passing play. Shanahan stressed Griffin wasn't using an audible; Griffin decided what play to run based on what the defense showed him.
I think we do something similar. Every play has different options built in. We make adjustments to the plays after Schaub sees what the defense is doing. The guy in motion, for instance, doesn't have to be put in motion if Schaub believes his current position & route is favorable to what the defense is showing us. When he is put in motion, he might have two or three different stop points & the one chosen puts him in a favorable position. That position may help him, may open another route, or may provide a natural pick.

Same thing with our running game. Just because it's a stretch to the right, there are a dozen or so adjustments that can be made to make it more successful. If the right is so overloaded, then the left should be much more favorable & we know Schaub has the ability to change the direction of the run. If we stretch it to the short side of the field, I personally believe that had to have been an audible.

We've got a very prolific offense, so it doesn't make sense to me that people would think it's stale & incapable of adjusting to what's going on in real time. Whether we're talking about scoring, yards, T.O.P. we're at the top of the league.

We've got red zone issues, no doubt about it. But the "Matt Schaub needs to be able to audible more!!" stuff is over-played.

badboy 02-19-2013 09:13 AM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tru80texan (Post 2127143)
Looks like he's in the shotgun & how do we know he's not signaling something in a hurry up offense or signaling for a silent count considering the crowd noise? Don't believe that photo is necessarily the best proof as I'm not quite sure that is an audible & it has been discussed by more then just the fans concerning the Texans lack of audibles.

Many, fans & some media, have claimed Kubiak is a control freak who has a short leash on Schaub & allows very limited audibles. Considering some of the play calls against certain defensive fronts that should've seemed doomed from the get go, its easy to believe that kubiak doesn't allow much changing of the plays he initially sends in. This is not the 1st time that the offense & its lack of adjustments by calling audibles has been questioned.

Why not call the audibled play first?:runaway:

Rey 02-19-2013 10:09 AM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
There are options on plays. Things are pre determined. If you see this then we are doing that.

We don't have creative audibling. If Matt sees single coverage on Aj he's not calling a play to take advantage of that. He's not audibling on the fly, basically what I call creative audibling.

Its all pre determined and he just calls what has been discussed during game prep.

Problem with that is when defenses do something they haven't seen before. Matt's not given the creative freedom to fully take advantage of things he sees that he may believe he can take advantage of.

Playoffs 02-19-2013 10:36 AM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
My understanding is Gary does not give Schaub any latitude to call plays from LOS reads, only check to a predetermined option.

I'd be interested to know what percentage of the top QBs can call a play from the LOS? You'd have to think Manning, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger(pre-Haley)...

76Texan 02-19-2013 12:07 PM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
With as much motion as the Texans use, there are less need to audible.

Each motion can be thought of as an audible.
When Schaub sent a receiver in motion from left to right; he can tell whether the D was in man or zone coverage.
When he sent Casey out from the backfield, he can see what kind of adjustment the D made. He then may have a second level of audible; he may change the play from a run to a pass, but now since the Offense is in a different formation from how they originally lines up, it becomes a completely different plays.

And like I've discussed before, Kubiak's offense now uses a whole lot more motion to show a whole lot more different formations each game as compared with the time he was in Denver.

In Denver, you may see 35 different formations out of a 60-play game.
Now, one might see as many as 50 some different formations.

In principle, this helps the QB to read what the defense is trying to do.

tru80texan 02-19-2013 12:24 PM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 76Texan (Post 2127328)
With as much motion as the Texans use, there are less need to audible.

Each motion can be thought of as an audible.
When Schaub sent a receiver in motion from left to right; he can tell whether the D was in man or zone coverage.
When he sent Casey out from the backfield, he can see what kind of adjustment the D made. He then may have a second level of audible; he may change the play from a run to a pass, but now since the Offense is in a different formation from how they originally lines up, it becomes a completely different plays.

And like I've discussed before, Kubiak's offense now uses a whole lot more motion to show a whole lot more different formations each game as compared with the time he was in Denver.

In Denver, you may see 35 different formations out of a 60-play game.
Now, one might see as many as 50 some different formations.

In principle, this helps the QB to read what the defense is trying to do.

That's an interesting take, but I'm not necessarily buying it all. I don't think a player in motion equates to an audible. There is a distinct difference IMO & it's not as if defenses are not use to seeing & adjusting to motions. Motion doesn't mean a play changed because motions are built into some plays & audibles are play changes or adjustments. I don't think the Texans motion as much as you lead us to believe nor do I believe that every time they motion it's an audible. I wish I had a game recorded to refer back to to count the motions, but just from memory I don't recall the Texans just motioning constantly that it was noticeable has a high amount. Could be wrong, but I have my doubts.

As far as motioning to detect coverages, that's nothing new to be honest. I'm not a big time gamer, but I'm pretty sure most Madden players are very aware of that game play to detect man or zone coverages. If gamers can utilize motion & figure it out, I'm sure NFL DC's are aware of it as well & know how to disguise their coverages.

76Texan 02-19-2013 01:16 PM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tru80texan (Post 2127343)
That's an interesting take, but I'm not necessarily buying it all. I don't think a player in motion equates to an audible. There is a distinct difference IMO & it's not as if defenses are not use to seeing & adjusting to motions. Motion doesn't mean a play changed because motions are built into some plays & audibles are play changes or adjustments. I don't think the Texans motion as much as you lead us to believe nor do I believe that every time they motion it's an audible. I wish I had a game recorded to refer back to to count the motions, but just from memory I don't recall the Texans just motioning constantly that it was noticeable has a high amount. Could be wrong, but I have my doubts.

As far as motioning to detect coverages, that's nothing new to be honest. I'm not a big time gamer, but I'm pretty sure most Madden players are very aware of that game play to detect man or zone coverages. If gamers can utilize motion & figure it out, I'm sure NFL DC's are aware of it as well & know how to disguise their coverages.

I agree that it's always a cat and mouse game.
Motion and a multitude of formations don't guarantee success.

It is just a tool to help the QB, but the QB also needs to be smart because the D can sometimes hides its true intention.

As far as game recorded, it was a study that I had spent a great time on during the last off-season. I had 9 Broncos games that I gathered when the Texans traded for Chris Myers.

I went through 3 games in depth on every play.
I first note the original personnel.
11 personnel for example, with 1 back and 1 TE
So I start counting one (1) formation from 11 personnel, no motion, TE strong right, X wide left, Z wide right, slot right.

Painstakingly, I went through each play, drawing a little diagram to note where each player lines up.
Then I realized that I can just take a screen shot of the formation.

The next time I see the 11 personnel again, I check against the diagram or screen shot to see whether the players still line up in the same position like before or some move to another location.
For this example, it could be
Two (2) formations from 11 personnel - ie., the second time the offense is in 11 personnel.
TE strong left, X wide left, slot left, Z wide right.
Then I note that this is a mirror formation of the previous one.

After charting 3 games, the next 6 became simpler, I don't need the diagrams anymore, just the abbreviated notes.

Then I watch the Texans games from 2011.
For example, there was one game in which by halftime, I've already found the Texans in as many different formations as the Broncos were in an entire game (in a certain game; I think both games involved the Titans as the common opponent.)

After the study, I concluded that the biggest difference between Kubiak's Broncos and Kubiak's Texans is in formation.

Jon Gruden also said something to the effect in one of the Texans game; that with the Texans, it's formation, formation, and formation.

Rey 02-19-2013 03:03 PM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
You cannot always tell if a defense is in man or zone by motion. This isn't highschool football. Defensive coordinators are more creative than that.
And even if you think a defense is in man coverage if you can't audible a route of a receiver to take advantage it doesnt matter.

Keyshawn Martin could have a mismatch in the slot and we wouldn't audible to take advantage of it like say Brady would do with welker or hernandez or gronk or one of his rb's out wide.

The offense is truly set up as a system where you can take less talented players and still be somewhat successful. That's fine, but its the NFL and you need special players to put it over the top. Maybe schaub can be special with more freedom. I don't know.

thunderkyss 02-19-2013 04:32 PM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tru80texan (Post 2127343)
There is a distinct difference IMO & it's not as if defenses are not use to seeing & adjusting to motions. Motion doesn't mean a play changed because motions are built into some plays & audibles are play changes or adjustments.

As far as motioning to detect coverages, that's nothing new to be honest. I'm not a big time gamer, but I'm pretty sure most Madden players are very aware of that game play to detect man or zone coverages. If gamers can utilize motion & figure it out, I'm sure NFL DC's are aware of it as well & know how to disguise their coverages.

I don't know either, but it is possible that one signal may mean to motion the Z receiver, another signal to motion the Y, or the X, still another to motion the fullback. For all I know, if the X motions to the slot, that may very well change every route.

It's been my observation, that when a play doesn't work, it's not because the defense had it beat from the get go. It's usually one of their players totally destroying one of our players. Either OD on the edge getting blown up by an OLB, like Matthews or Ninkovich, or Ben Jones or Chris Myers being blown up by Wilfork.

Again, we have & have had one of the most prolific offenses in the league. Normally I would think the end of the 2012 season to be an anomaly, but it looked an awful lot like the end of the 2011 season. So I do understand the concern. I just don't believe our audible system is the crux of the problem.

infantrycak 02-19-2013 10:45 PM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ckhouston (Post 2127460)
Jim Kelly called all his own plays, so did Staubach.

I won't claim to know about Kelly (although why have an OC credited with designing the O if the QB is doing whatever he wants) but 100% false on Staubach. Staubach changed plays occasionally but both he and Landry talked about how Landry would chew his butt unless it was successful.

I don't know how anyone looks at the games and says they can tell the Texans aren't calling audibles.

76Texan 02-19-2013 11:24 PM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey (Post 2127438)
You cannot always tell if a defense is in man or zone by motion. This isn't highschool football. Defensive coordinators are more creative than that.
And even if you think a defense is in man coverage if you can't audible a route of a receiver to take advantage it doesnt matter.

Keyshawn Martin could have a mismatch in the slot and we wouldn't audible to take advantage of it like say Brady would do with welker or hernandez or gronk or one of his rb's out wide.

The offense is truly set up as a system where you can take less talented players and still be somewhat successful. That's fine, but its the NFL and you need special players to put it over the top. Maybe schaub can be special with more freedom. I don't know.

No, you cannot always tell whether it's going to be true zone or man coverage just by motion. But if I motion my receiver from left to right and your CB don't follow my receiver, I like that very much, thank you.

ArlingtonTexan 02-19-2013 11:44 PM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
Let's just be for real, nobody actually gives a spit whether the Texans audible or not. Fans only care that the offense makes first downs and scores bunches of points. Audible, no audible may make us sound football smart, but at the end of day we don't really care.

How i am so sure? cowboy fans has spent the last 6 months telling me that the audible heavy offense "kill, kill, kill" that they run is flawed. the texans have been used as a team that "lines up, and runs their plays with confidence no matter what the defense is." No joking.

At the end of the day, fans care about results.

RT22 02-20-2013 07:18 AM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
In the Pats playoff game 1st half I could tell no audibles because Schaub for the most part when they got to the LOS he snapped the ball without looking over the defense.

thunderkyss 02-20-2013 08:20 AM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by infantrycak (Post 2127602)

I don't know how anyone looks at the games and says they can tell the Texans aren't calling audibles.

I know Schaub & Kubiak saying we don't do it often kinda plays into this belief.

infantrycak 02-20-2013 01:01 PM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RT22 (Post 2127632)
In the Pats playoff game 1st half I could tell no audibles because Schaub for the most part when they got to the LOS he snapped the ball without looking over the defense.

BS. Even in the hurry up he looks over the D.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderkyss (Post 2127647)
I know Schaub & Kubiak saying we don't do it often kinda plays into this belief.

Yeah, despite the fact both have said the opposite. This is a fan created myth.

HOU-TEX 02-20-2013 01:16 PM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by infantrycak (Post 2127602)
I won't claim to know about Kelly (although why have an OC credited with designing the O if the QB is doing whatever he wants) but 100% false on Staubach. Staubach changed plays occasionally but both he and Landry talked about how Landry would chew his butt unless it was successful.

I don't know how anyone looks at the games and says they can tell the Texans aren't calling audibles.

Eh, It's like the cats that call McNair cheap. Mind-numbing at times

Rey 02-20-2013 02:37 PM

Re: Texans Offense Question?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderkyss (Post 2127647)
I know Schaub & Kubiak saying we don't do it often kinda plays into this belief.

Thy call audibles. They are basic, but they call audibles. And not as often as maybe schaub could handle.


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