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-   -   MUST read: For all you playcalling critics (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3643)

Marcus 10-20-2004 08:01 AM

MUST read: For all you playcalling critics
 
In third season, Palmer's plan looks like a winner.

Fairness has no place in cyberspace, which might begin to explain why at times during the Texans' first two seasons, there was actually an online petition calling for offensive coordinator Chris Palmer's job . . . . . .

Grid 10-20-2004 08:11 AM

Quote:

"We have an enormous amount of talent on the offensive side of the football," veteran tight end Mark Bruener said. "If we can just get the ball into those guys' hands guys like Andre Johnson, Corey Bradford, Jabar Gaffney and Derick Armstrong we can be a very effective offense."
I wonder if that is a direct qoute from Bruenor.. if so.. makes me wonder if faith in D. Davis has been snuffed out in the lockeroom as well as on these boards.

that could spell the end for Davis.

JustBonee 10-20-2004 08:35 AM

From that article ..

"I like our big-play capability," Capers said. "Probably through the first six games, that's been the biggest change in our football team. That's one of the reasons why we've scored more points than we have in the past and why we have the capability of coming back (from 21 points down) against the Vikings like we did in the second half."

So while the running game has stalled, the throwing game is getting stronger each game...
no doubt the reverse of what Capers & Palmer want to see.

Corrosion 10-20-2004 09:28 AM

Im one of those who doesnt like the playcalling ..... BUT im not complaining about the disparrity between run / pass . In fact i'd much rather see MORE running if it could be done efficiently . Since they can only seem to manage about 3.3 ypc that isnt gonna happen.

Ive said this before and people twist my words into something totally different so this time im gonna explain it in such a way that you cant make it into something else ....

My complaints are simple . The Texans dont use ALL the weapons they have at their disposal . You seldom see play action , almost never see a guard or tackle pull , screen passes are pretty much non-existant and essentially just an extension of the running game . The tight ends have pretty much been forgotten . Timing route's have never been used much by this team .
The running game is elementary , lets hand it to DD or Wells and let them run it between the tackles . With Wells i can see that as a plan but with DD , (or Hollings for that matter) they need to get him in Space where he can make an LB or DB look like a fool .

Basicly they need to be more creative in their play calling , not just throw deep to AJ or run DD between the tackles . I'd like to see them be able to run effeciently 35+ times a game . That makes those DB's have to concentrate on the run just as much as the pass giving the recievers a better chance of beating them.

Teams know coming in what Capers wants to do , and thats pretty much what every coach would like to do wiht the exception of maybe Martz ( he's plain crazy) and thats Run the ball . So they put 8 in the box and make DC beat them with his arm , which he has been able to do this season with some regularity. The need to look for ways to exploit what defenses come in attempting to do not just try to overpower them at the line . It clearly isnt working when you avg 3.3 yards per carry , their avg for the season . Thats good enough for 30th in the NFL . Only Detroit (3.2) and Miami (3.0) have an avg per carry lower.

Billy Miller and Mark Bruener have a grand total of Eight (8) catches between them , both of these guy's are tough match-ups for the D . Use them and take some heat away from your outside recievers . Ya think if the TE makes a few catches over the middle that safety can afford to play over the top of AJ ? ..... not to mention those guy's are a LOAD to bring down for a DB.

Play Action is pretty nifty , Safety and or LB bites on the play fake and the reciever gets a step or two on him . Can ya imagine AJ gettin an EXTRA step on someone ? How about Bradford with his speed ?

Screen Passes ... an extension of the running game that get the back into the open field giving them a chance to make some moves on LB's and DB's without havin to bother with the D-line .

How bout a Draw play instead of running between the tackles on 3rd and 4 ?Maybe a trap or Delay ?


Balance to me doesnt mean run the ball 35 times for 2.7 yards a carry (the avg on sunday against the Titanics) and throwing it 26 for an avg of 10.2 (also the avg per pass against hte Titanics) . They need to find ways to run the ball more effeciently , NOT RUN LESS . Let me say that again ....

They need to find ways to run the ball more effeciently , NOT RUN LESS :hehe:

Porky 10-20-2004 10:09 AM

I can agree with some of your critisims, but not all or even most. If anything, I am glad to see them getting away from screen passes. The first two years, even I could tell you when a screen pass was coming. I do agree with getting the TE's a bit more involved, especially when teams play alot of cover 2 against us. But, all in all, I couldn't be more pleased with the passing game. With the run, I agree that they need more imagination, but alot of the problems can be traced to poor run blocking, a new scheme, and injuries to DD, Hollings, and Wells, rather that a lack of imagination. My chief complaint, and it isn't a biggie, is the timing of when they call certain running plays, rather than the total number or type. But all in all, this year, I am much more satisfied with how the play calls have gone in general, especially since the 3rd game.

Corrosion 10-20-2004 10:51 AM

Ive NEVER said "Fire Palmer" . He's done a pretty good job of bringing DC along step by step , not throwing the whole playbook at him at once and overwhelming him , same can be said of the way he's dealt with AJ .

My main point is I'd like to see more than an avg of 3.3 ypc on running plays . The easiest way to do that is force the D NOT to put 8 or more in the box . Or use some mis-direction to get the D moving one way and the ball the other . I cant think of a single team who can run the ball effectively against a stacked line.

The only reason no-one is complaining about the 2.7 ypc this week against the Titanics is that they won the game . The 4 turnovers played a big part in that even if they failed to score a single point off them. Take away those turnovers and this is quite likely a different game .

Screen play's keep the Outside LB's honest as well as the safety . or any running play to the outside for that matter . The DE and OLB are generaly responsible for outside contain on plays of that nature .

The use of the TE across the middle or on post patterns is the responsibility of the ILB and or Safery depending on the coverage package . A steady diet of the TE across the middle forces the Safety / ILB to be just as concerned with the pass as the run and relieves some of the pressure on the outside recievers when the safety cant play over the top .

Once again let me state ... NO I DONT WANNA SEE DC DROP BACK AND FIRE AWAY 45 TIMES A GAME ...... he'd be beat up like Drew Bledsoe physically as well as mentally :rofl:


Run the ball , do it well , control the clock , pass the ball effeciently , win some games . pretty simple concept

SBTexans08 10-20-2004 11:00 AM

Yes we do need better running....which team doesn't. It just hasn't been very effective and when that happens you need to ditch it or do it less cause it's just hindering you from sustaining drives and taking time off the clock, thus losing games.

I never thought it was Palmer's fault as too why we played so conservative. I've always blamed that on Capers. As an Offensive Coordinator I'd think that Palmer thoughout every game, hell...every OC, licks his chops to get some big plays in but since Capers is the main man and calls for the conservative game Palmers' hands are tied.

I think Capers has opened his eyes every since that Vikings game when the Texans had to pull together and string in a mass load of passing plays to get back in the game to score some points and have a chance. Capers had no choice and for that I'm greatful that the Texans were behind by such a huge margin against the most productive offense in the league cause now he can feel confident about his team's passing potential. I too hope though that they don't abandon the run as it's crucial to the team's success in not being a one dimensional team and being predictable as we were heading into this season as a rushing offense more than not. Hopefully the running game will come together sooner than not, I believe it will.

aj. 10-20-2004 11:58 AM

Quote:

You seldom see play action
Of Carr's 10 pass attempts in the first quarter alone on Sunday, three were play action. You can't run play action every pass attempt, otherwise what's the point - it's no longer deception. Also, if you can't run the ball what's the point of play action? The Texans ran the ball barely well enough on Sunday to make play action worthwhile. That's why you saw more shotgun.

wags 10-20-2004 12:00 PM

Play-action doesn't work quite as well when your ground game sucks.

HJam72 10-20-2004 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wags
Play-action doesn't work quite as well when your ground game sucks.

The reason the ground game sucks is because they don't pass the ball 45 times a game. :wacko:

Running 35 times and passing 27 is not quite as balanced as what I'm looking for, especially when the run averaged only 2.9 (?) yards per carry (something like that), but they had a lead and running out the clock was a good thing. I only remember one time (in the first half) where I was irritated by a (unsuccessfull) run play when I thought they should've passed. I also felt more of a passing pressence in the FIRST HALF--at least it felt that way as I watched it, anyway. That's what I really wanted, anyway. I felt like this team was throwing way too many of the passes in the 4th quarter that should've been attempted in the first and second.

All in all, we won the turnover ratio, again! That's what's really helping us win right now, I think.

Bye the way, I've always felt that it was way too early to be firing coaches. You gotta give this new franchise AT LEAST 3 full years to get it in gear. Then, you have to give them at least half of next year to prove that they have already gotten into gear--might as well wait 'till after the 4th year to start firing people.

Except for David Carr. He needs to be fired now! :wacko:

I do also agree with what Corrosion said--although running MORE doesn't sound good to me.

Corrosion 10-20-2004 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aj.
Of Carr's 10 pass attempts in the first quarter alone on Sunday, three were play action. You can't run play action every pass attempt, otherwise what's the point - it's no longer deception. Also, if you can't run the ball what's the point of play action? The Texans ran the ball barely well enough on Sunday to make play action worthwhile. That's why you saw more shotgun.


I Didnt get to see the game Sunday against the Titanics but in general over the season my statement holds true . Maybe Palmer read my last post . :popcorn:

infantrycak 10-20-2004 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrosion
I Didnt get to see the game Sunday against the Titanics but in general over the season my statement holds true . Maybe Palmer read my last post . :popcorn:

It holds true if you can prove it like aj disproved it for the latest game.

aj. 10-20-2004 09:53 PM

What are you talking about? Generalizations are always a good basis for debate.

Jwwillis 10-20-2004 10:21 PM

Lets face it. No matter what the reason the Texans may lose the o-coordinator will be the fall guy. The Texans chalked up mega-points against the Vikings but lost because the D failed to hold them. Then all the talk was still about Palmers play calling and not the D-coordinator. Seems kind of slanted to me,to the point of not even making any sense.

Grid 10-20-2004 10:36 PM

I dont mind the way they are using the TEs.. personally.. as much as i like Miller.. i would rather have two huge blocking TEs that couldnt catch a cold, let alone a pass. the more linemen we have, the better :P.

But.. as things are.. we are obviously having no problem making plays without using our TEs.. if a tough game comes along where they shut down our long ball.. THEN will be the time to start hitting those TEs.. especially since they wont be expecting it since we have neglected them this long.

bckey 10-21-2004 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jwwillis
Lets face it. No matter what the reason the Texans may lose the o-coordinator will be the fall guy. The Texans chalked up mega-points against the Vikings but lost because the D failed to hold them. Then all the talk was still about Palmers play calling and not the D-coordinator. Seems kind of slanted to me,to the point of not even making any sense.

I was at that game and the defense held the Vikings to 7 points in the 2nd half. I wouldn't blame it on the defense. They stopped them in overtime and gave our offense an opportunity. They didn't get it done. Carr was sacked on 3rd down and we gave the ball back to the Vikes for a 2nd time and then lost. Our defense did give up the slant pass all day but holding a team like the Vikings to 7 points for an entire half is doing a good job.

aj. 10-21-2004 06:11 AM

Quote:

I was at that game and the defense held the Vikings to 7 points in the 2nd half.
The Vikings scored 14 in the 1st half, 14 in the 2nd half, and 6 in OT.

The Texans defense tightened up late in the game, stopping the Vikes on 5 of 6 drives, but they still allowed 510 yards -- 272 of those in the 2nd half and overtime.

Jwwillis 10-21-2004 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bckey
I was at that game and the defense held the Vikings to 7 points in the 2nd half. I wouldn't blame it on the defense. They stopped them in overtime and gave our offense an opportunity. They didn't get it done. Carr was sacked on 3rd down and we gave the ball back to the Vikes for a 2nd time and then lost. Our defense did give up the slant pass all day but holding a team like the Vikings to 7 points for an entire half is doing a good job.

What A.J said and....

The Texans scored 28 points and lost. We stoped them in OT then they stopped us. Whichever D gave first lost and we were it. We are not going to win many games giving up 34 points and 500+ yards.

HJam72 10-22-2004 04:52 PM

Let's not forget that the Vikings have one of the best offenses in football and a 29th ranked defense (before the Texans game). We expected the defense to have some problems and for the offense to score. People were a little unhappy with the lack of Texans offense in the first half of that game and, if they had scored 7 more in the first half, they would have won that game. Also, giving up 28 points to THAT offense, in four quarters, is understandable, but not scoring more than we did in the first half is probably not. I didn't see it, though, so that's probably all I have to say.

Fiddy 10-22-2004 04:54 PM

I havent seen it here so: Notebook: Under Palmer, Texans offense getting the picture


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