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-   -   D-Line getting handled? (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3056)

LB Love 09-28-2004 01:38 AM

D-Line getting handled?
 
Hey all, my question to yall is it just me or does it seem like Smith, Payne/Deloach and Walker are getting handled by our opponents o-line? I realize that 3-4 linemen arent quick, agile guys, nor are they supposed to be. To me it just seems like they are the ones getting moved around and manhandled instead of the other way around. After all, all of these guys are 300+ and hugely strong. Anyone else agree/disagree?

jr0ck 09-28-2004 02:47 AM

i think the majority of the time (maybe 65/35) the d-line stands up/gets stood up by the opposing line. with the talent in smith, payne and walker this is kinda hard to imagine, but what i've noticed is in the begining of the game the d-line looks good. they use their hands, make moves, and push o-linemen. but as soon as halftime comes within reach, our front three seem to tire immensly, and never recover the rest of the game. i think seth might be the most noticable, the middle of the LOS has seemed stagnent for the majority of our first three games. my thoughts on this are payne's recovery from injury is complete but it took away from him getting into full season football shape by the season's start (hence the standing up by the 3rd quarter). gary and robaire don't seem to be collapsing the pocket as well as they should, but i've at least seen them show some spark. i see this being remedied at latest by mid season, and if it's any credit the d-line already i've seen foreman and espicially wong look noticably better than last season. which means that even in their less than stellar performance's, they're keeping the double teams from the second level. and i love how i keep seeing robaire's hands go up to bat down balls, i think he's even got one or two already. bottom line: d-line isn't living up to their assumed potenial and we need push from all three all game long! we look good when the o-line is fresh, but due to (what appears to be conditioning) have lost the war of attrition in all three of our games. i still have love for g-funk, payne and smith though and really believe our d will be vastly improved by season's end :twocents:

Diehardtexan 09-28-2004 02:59 AM

if we don't rush as often like what the 3-4 suppose to do as we did in the second half against KC, the front three are going to get killed against the Raiders. They have a massive OL and they are very quick. Maybe we got lucky that Ganon is hurt and is not going to play. I don't know if the back up is any good. But if you give any QB enough time they will kill us.

Carr Bombed 09-28-2004 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diehardtexan
if we don't rush as often like what the 3-4 suppose to do as we did in the second half against KC, the front three are going to get killed against the Raiders. They have a massive OL and they are very quick. Maybe we got lucky that Ganon is hurt and is not going to play. I don't know if the back up is any good. But if you give any QB enough time they will kill us.

Actually their backup Kerry Collins who led the Giants to the superbowl and is arguably better than Gannon and is a bigger threat to throw deep. So we didn't get luckier our luck got worse.

BornOrange 09-28-2004 07:35 AM

Yeah, but Kerry Collins is a QB who the Texans have beat in the past.

geofb 09-28-2004 08:32 AM

I've been wondering for some time if Gary Walker is worth the money we are paying him. After these first 3 games, I still wonder about that.

JDizzle 09-28-2004 09:23 AM

Many times during the KC game we only brought a 3 man rush. With a decent line like KC's, anytime you have 5 on 3 chances are the smaller group will get beat. It's a bit unfair to place Priest Holmes big day on the D-line alone. He gained quite a few yards running off the ends and tackles, and it looked to me like KC had no trouble sealing off the end. Babin fell victim to that a couple times, but he kept good outside contain on the 4th down stop also.

Priest Holmes will get his yards, especially against a slightly below average D. But there's a bright spot - he didn't score a TD.

nunusguy 09-28-2004 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carr Bomb
Actually their backup Kerry Collins who led the Giants to the superbowl and is arguably better than Gannon and is a bigger threat to throw deep. So we didn't get luckier our luck got worse.

Exactly, Gannon is more mobile but Collins has a much stronger arm and if you
saw Sunday nights game they played against TB he got time to pass and was very effective vs. a D that is certainly stronger than ours. The Texans are gonna really have to come with some pressure this weekend, or Collins could
burn us bad.

J-Man 09-28-2004 10:08 AM

I have actually thought that Robaire Smith has played pretty well for a DE in our scheme. I haven't noticed the a significant drop in his preformance over the course of a game, or at least any more of a drop that one can expect from a 300lb D-lineman. I will admit to buying into the hype of Payne, ie. assuming that he would automatically be back to his 2003 form prior to his injury. I am honestly concerned about the amount of money we are dropping on Walker, at his best he is a solid B+ level end that will occupy a couple blockers and seal the edge...problem is his inconsistency.

Just my observations, a former big ugly like Ogre (quality poster here on the boards) might have some better observations since I spent most of my football time trying to catch balls and making sure my hair looked good. :thumbup

edo783 09-28-2004 11:12 AM

If Collins is the QB we can rattle him IF, IF, IF we get pressure. If we don't, it won't be pretty. The deep ball will be coming early and often.

jr0ck 09-28-2004 02:07 PM

Quote:

Robaire Smith has played pretty well for a DE in our scheme. I haven't noticed the a significant drop in his preformance over the course of a game, or at least any more of a drop that one can expect from a 300lb D-lineman.
i could agree with that, its fair to say he's been the most consistent of the front three. one thing i know from experience in the trenches (ill expound on this later) is that the best d-lines feed off of each other. if smith is the only one making push late in games, his effectiveness has got to be dampened by walker and payne's un-enthusiastic play. walker has looked better in each game, and i at least heard his name once or twice (ex: kailee wongs sack at the end of the 1st half was because of g-funk's pressure). i think once payne is anywhere close to last years form, the d-line's play as a whole will match it's potential on paper.

Quote:

a former big ugly like Ogre (quality poster here on the boards) might have some better observations
i too am a former big ugly. i was a converted DE from LB after i put on about 20 lbs before my senoir year. went from 225 to 245, so a little speed was lost. still ran a 4.9 though :yap. those were the days.....anywho, off to class..

El Tejano 09-28-2004 03:43 PM

Robaire Smith as a DE in the 3-4 defense almost came up with two interceptions in last weeks game. One was really a batted down pass but he was trying to int that thing. The other, he actually dropped back in coverage and if not for a play be the TE/Receiver, Robaire makes that pick in Chief territory.

Bill's/TexanFan 09-28-2004 04:02 PM

I've watched a number of good 3-4 Defenses over the years and I'm not sure how effective they can be in today's NFL. The reason for that IMO is the size of the O-Lines. They are huge and you may be asking for a little to much to expect R. Smith, S. Payne and G. Walker along with an outside LB to take on five big uglies. In the 90's Buffalo was able to run the 3-4 because of DE Phil Hansen...NT Ted (Mr. Big) Washington and future Hall of Famer and all time sack leader DE Bruce Smith. Plus....two OLB's in D. Talley & C. Bennett to put heat on the QB. We do not have "those type" of players currently on our roster.

infantrycak 09-28-2004 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill's/TexanFan
I've watched a number of good 3-4 Defenses over the years and I'm not sure how effective they can be in today's NFL.

Three of the top 9 defenses last year ran the 3-4 D as their base defense including the superbowl winner. Several teams this year have either switched to the 3-4 like San Diego or are mixing in 3-4 more such as Oakland & Dallas. IMO the 3-4 system is just fine but like any system you have to have the right people to execute it.

texasguy346 09-28-2004 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BornOrange
Yeah, but Kerry Collins is a QB who the Texans have beat in the past.

Don't forget that Kerry will be behind a much better OLine with the Raiders. He'll have younger recievers, but Jerry Porter is a huge threat. They aslo have a good TE in Doug Jolley. I feel we should be able to effectively shut down their running game, but Norv Turner is known for what he's able to do for the running game.

Bill's/TexanFan 09-28-2004 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infantrycak
Three of the top 9 defenses last year ran the 3-4 D as their base defense including the superbowl winner. Several teams this year have either switched to the 3-4 like San Diego or are mixing in 3-4 more such as Oakland & Dallas. IMO the 3-4 system is just fine but like any system you have to have the right people to execute it.

Sure, a number of teams mix in the 3-4 from time to time but I was speaking of teams that use it as their base D. I'd really like to see what a line of Smith, Payne, DeLoach & Walker could do at run D and putting the heat on the passer.

Panther5407 09-28-2004 08:04 PM

I havn't seen Jack from th D line. R. Smith is the only thing that I see from time to time. But really Walker hasn't done that much (thats why I traded him for Udeze in madden, way less money and someone that has been preforming better).

Mistril48 09-28-2004 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill's/TexanFan
I've watched a number of good 3-4 Defenses over the years ...

and a lot of those were coached up by Capers. I trust his judgement.

I'm just glad were not 1-2, having lost two divisional games, at home, and having our QB in the hospital for two days. Bummer

JDizzle 09-28-2004 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panther5407
I havn't seen Jack from th D line. R. Smith is the only thing that I see from time to time. But really Walker hasn't done that much (thats why I traded him for Udeze in madden, way less money and someone that has been preforming better).

Does this qualify as the first official Madden Reference of the season? There's one every year it seems.

infantrycak 09-28-2004 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill's/TexanFan
Sure, a number of teams mix in the 3-4 from time to time but I was speaking of teams that use it as their base D. I'd really like to see what a line of Smith, Payne, DeLoach & Walker could do at run D and putting the heat on the passer.

And the 3 of the top 9 teams that I was referring to run the 3-4 as their base D. In a 4-3 all of our guys are DT's. Would be a great run D but folks would be complaining about pass pressure still.


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