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-   -   Promote Hoke and Fire Palmer. (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12291)

cadahnic 09-15-2005 10:46 AM

Promote Hoke and Fire Palmer.
 
Hoke is one of the best young coaches in the league right now, and likely up for a D-coordinator posistion next year. I say we lock him down at DC and trust me people we will be much more aggressive on defense with him running things. Fangio should not be fired just demoted and handling sub-duties. Palmer just does not get it done and he should likely be fired, but we do not have a good OC product that runs our system. Next year when we can use the offseason to get the rhetoric and new playbook in is when we get our OC. I think Capers is a good coach, probably better suited as a coordinator also, but Hoke is not ready to lead team completely but give him 4 years and he will.

Make your voices heard Texans Fans... Hoke for DC.

TEXANS84 09-15-2005 10:59 AM

Hoke is a defensive back coach, yet you want him to run the offense?

Don't get me wrong, I like Hoke. But I don't think him switching to the offense is going to solve the problem.

Kaiser Toro 09-15-2005 11:09 AM

The biggest problem I have seen on the defensive side is that they are on the field to long, which manifests itself on the offensive side of the ball.

I like Hoke, but not sure we are barking up the right tree for changes.

cadahnic 09-15-2005 12:02 PM

As I said earlier Texans84 I want Hoke as the D-Coordinator. Kaiser Toro you are on the right track. I am not saying that their is anything substantially wrong with our defense other than that they are not aggressive. Well I guess that is substantially wrong when you run a 3-4, but you made a good point. The rest of the message consisted of firing Palmer, who was terrible in Cleveland and terrible here. He has a weak playbook and we are looking as dull, predictable, and anemic as last years Jags... But we wont win as many games.

Hervoyel 09-15-2005 01:11 PM

I disagree strongly. Fire Capers (There is no Fire Capers Club) and promote Palmer to HC while keeping him in charge of the offense. Then see what happens. If the Texans offense comes to life then you know the problem was Dom. If it doesn't then hey, it's still early in the season so we've got time to Fire Palmer (Is there a Fire Palmer Club?) and promote Hoke.

Has any team ever had three coaches in one season? I sense another record coming up!

TEXANS84 09-15-2005 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadahnic
As I said earlier Texans84 I want Hoke as the D-Coordinator.

My bad, I saw Hoke and Palmer in the same sentence and thought it was an o-coordinator thing.
:ok:

cadahnic 09-15-2005 01:26 PM

Hervoyel Capers would be better as a D. Coordinator and LB coach rather than the man running the show, but Hoke is not ready for the big time yet as a H.C. and Palmer would lead us farther down the road of degredation than any other coach other than steve spurrier.

Double Barrel 09-15-2005 01:39 PM

Jimmy Johnson for President! :heh:

Personally, I'm not a big fan of changing coaches mid-season. It just seems...wrong.*

Especially with 15 games to go! What a way to tell players and fans that this season is a bust after 1 game. ;)

*(Unless it's Jack Pardee, of course...but I think he was lost)

Hervoyel 09-15-2005 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadahnic
Hervoyel Capers would be better as a D. Coordinator and LB coach rather than the man running the show, but Hoke is not ready for the big time yet as a H.C. and Palmer would lead us farther down the road of degredation than any other coach other than steve spurrier.

And exactly how do you know this?

Ok, from the top. You're not going to get to fire Capers and then keep him as the defensive coordinator. That simply does not happen.

The problem here is with the offense, not the defense. The offense is terrible and has been since 2002. The defense has valid explanations for the way it played last week. The defense has undergone a significant alteration since last season. The offense should be far ahead of the defense at this point and it's not. The blame for that lies with either Capers or Palmer. That much is clear.

Capers, wherever he has been, has stood for a conservative ball control offense that grinds it out slowly and controls the clock. He's also known for having aggressive defenses and well disciplined teams. Tell me honestly if any of that rings a bell? I know we try to grind it out and control the clock but we mostly get our heads handed to us. Palmer has in the past universally been known for a wide open offense that racks up yards and points.

I, like you only have a limited amount of information about what's happening in there but based on that I believe we're seeing Dom's "philosophy" and not Chris Palmers. I want to see what Chris Palmer does without the single most conservative head coach on earth as his boss.

If he fails too then no big deal. It's not like Dom was going to lead us to the Super Bowl and it's not like we have to keep Palmer past the end of the year. That's why the word "interim" is used. It changes everything.

cadahnic 09-15-2005 02:16 PM

I guess I have a couple of points to refute in your previous statement. Palmer was fired from Cleveland due to his inability to coach up the offense and call a good game. I am not saying he is not wide open, but he is repetitive and predictable.

I am not saying we make capers our d coordinator I am saying he is better suited for that particular posistion.

Capers has been known, especially with K. Collins to let the ball fly. He is much more ball control than most coaches other than B. Cowher, but Capers main problem is in the moment decisions. Like our 4th and 2 he decided to punt pretty much saying we concede the game. Our defense though is not overly disciplined and no were near what you would call agressive.

SESupergenius 09-15-2005 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hervoyel
I want to see what Chris Palmer does without the single most conservative head coach on earth as his boss.

If he fails too then no big deal. It's not like Dom was going to lead us to the Super Bowl and it's not like we have to keep Palmer past the end of the year. That's why the word "interim" is used. It changes everything.

He had his chance......the Cleveland Browns.

Jwwillis 09-15-2005 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hervoyel
And exactly how do you know this?

Ok, from the top. You're not going to get to fire Capers and then keep him as the defensive coordinator. That simply does not happen.

The problem here is with the offense, not the defense. The offense is terrible and has been since 2002. The defense has valid explanations for the way it played last week. The defense has undergone a significant alteration since last season. The offense should be far ahead of the defense at this point and it's not. The blame for that lies with either Capers or Palmer. That much is clear.

Capers, wherever he has been, has stood for a conservative ball control offense that grinds it out slowly and controls the clock. He's also known for having aggressive defenses and well disciplined teams. Tell me honestly if any of that rings a bell? I know we try to grind it out and control the clock but we mostly get our heads handed to us. Palmer has in the past universally been known for a wide open offense that racks up yards and points.

I, like you only have a limited amount of information about what's happening in there but based on that I believe we're seeing Dom's "philosophy" and not Chris Palmers. I want to see what Chris Palmer does without the single most conservative head coach on earth as his boss.

If he fails too then no big deal. It's not like Dom was going to lead us to the Super Bowl and it's not like we have to keep Palmer past the end of the year. That's why the word "interim" is used. It changes everything.

And how do you know THIS? Is your crystal ball better than Cadahnic's? I find it comical nobody mentions the players being responsible for making the plays. You can draw diagrams and preach all day but if the player doesnt perform it means nothing. Typical modern American, blame the teacher not the student, finger pointing bull@#$%. Your attitue would have had the Steelers H.C. gone a long time ago. They haven't lost a game in a year.

Hervoyel 09-15-2005 02:34 PM

Now we're in an area that's primarily opinion so bearing that in mind I'm going out on a limb and saying that Palmer was fired in Cleveland because of the number of wins in the ol' WIN column and not because he didn't "coach up the offense" or "call a good game".

In 2002 and 2003 the Texans offense rarely executed what I would consider a good game. Mostly I don't think they were capable of executing anything more complex than what we saw and I give them zero grief over that. Likewise I don't think it's fair to look at Palmers time in Cleveland and say he can't "coach up an offense" or "call a good game". You can put a pig in a prom dress but it's still not going to be much fun on the dance floor. Expansion teams don't have good offenses. They don't even have reasonable offenses. They have squat. Looking at Capers career everywhere except for the two times he coached expansion teams you cannot find one single piece of evidence that this guy is a bad offensive coordinator. He's had success everywhere he's gone that wasn't building an NFL franchise from the ground up.

Personally I think Cleveland fired him too early and used him as a scapegoat for the lousy decisions made by Policy.

All of this about Palmer is moot. Dom is in charge and if you think the offense stinks because Palmer somehow manages to make it stink against Dom's wishes then that's a leap of reasoning I have no response to. Head coaches don't allow their offensive coordinators to run a system that's counter to what that head coach believes in. Head coaches all know they're going to get fired someday in all likelyhood but they don't like it when it happens.

Chris Palmer is running Dom Capers offense for him. Think about it for a little and it will become clear to you.

I want to see Chris Palmers offense. Maybe it's going to suck just as much as what I'm seeing but I want to see it for myself. No more eating the clock or trying to stay close until the fourth quarter. I want to see Chris Palmer call the kind of offense we saw in Jacksonville. I want to see him call the kind of offense he couldn't run in Cleveland with the people he had. We've got much better personnel than they had in Cleveland when he was there.

That's what I think anyway.

cadahnic 09-15-2005 02:39 PM

J I am not going on a crystal ball or saying that the players are not without blame for not making plays work. You do have to put them in a situation to succeed though and that is not being done. The fact that carr threw 3 ints is carr's fault he could have ate the sack or thrown it away. The fact that he had two options to throw to and his main read had three guys on him. Palmer's fault for not understanding you need a saftey valve in the middle of the zone. Palmer is just not a very good coach and Capers is quite conservative, but Hoke has always stated that he is aggressive and does not think there is any other way to play football, that is what we as a team and city need.

Hervoyel 09-15-2005 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jwwillis
And how do you know THIS? Is your crystal ball better than Cadahnic's? I find it comical nobody mentions the players being responsible for making the plays. You can draw diagrams and preach all day but if the player doesnt perform it means nothing. Typical modern American, blame the teacher not the student, finger pointing bull@#$%. Your attitue would have had the Steelers H.C. gone a long time ago. They haven't lost a game in a year.

Based on the statements I just made in that post you replied to then my answer is yes, my crystal ball is better than cadahanics.

And no, I wouldn't have fired Bill Cowher in Pittsburgh. He does more with less than any other coach in the NFL consistently.

Just for those late to the thread let me summarize:

cadahanic thinks we should fire Palmer
Hervoyel thinks we should fire Capers
Jwwillis thinks we should hold the players accountable and that my attitude is responsible for the downfall of American society (or at least the school system)

Is YOUR cyrstal ball better than both of ours? I mean seriously, based on what you just said Jwwillis we shouldn't be firing Palmer either. It's the players who aren't coming through, we should just go get some more of those right?

Think we should fire the guy who's picking the players maybe?

Nah, that couldn't be the answer. Doing that would just be finger pointing and putting the blame on the GM and HC instead of blaming the players right?

cadahnic 09-15-2005 02:45 PM

Hervoyel. Come on man. I see were you are going and it is close to the right way but still wrong. Capers makes the calls as far as his philosophy, but make no mistake that Palmer is running the offense. Trust me I know this first hand. Carr and Capers met with Palmer this week in order to amp the offense play calling up. I also know this first hand. So the thought process that Palmer did not coach up his team is legitimate. The 49ers do not have better personel than us, but they still put on a better display. I do not mean we would beat the Bills anyway, but when you as a fan with limited football knowledge knows exactly what the play calls are going to be, I guarantee the defense knows and is ready for it.

Hervoyel 09-15-2005 02:55 PM

I disagree with you cadahnic. We're going to have to leave it at that.

Porky 09-15-2005 02:58 PM

Jwwillis has apparently never heard the mantra "the buck stops here". I can just see his philoposhy in action over our history.... Douglas MacArthur - Heck, I coached dem soldiers, but they just didn't do what I wanted. It's not my fault. Harry Truman - Buck? What buck? I meant to say does anyone have a buck. I am in need of a dollar to buy my lunch.

Porky 09-15-2005 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadahnic
Hervoyel. Come on man. I see were you are going and it is close to the right way but still wrong. Capers makes the calls as far as his philosophy, but make no mistake that Palmer is running the offense. Trust me I know this first hand. Carr and Capers met with Palmer this week in order to amp the offense play calling up. I also know this first hand. So the thought process that Palmer did not coach up his team is legitimate. The 49ers do not have better personel than us, but they still put on a better display. I do not mean we would beat the Bills anyway, but when you as a fan with limited football knowledge knows exactly what the play calls are going to be, I guarantee the defense knows and is ready for it.

Either way, it is Capers responsibility. Bob Allen asked Capers flat out on Monday - Are you and Chris Palmer on the same page on the type of offense you want to run, and the play calling etc? Capers said they were running the offense they wanted, and that they were on the same page. Now, could this have been a lie? I suspect it was to an extent, but the point is the Captian doesn't blame the navigator when the ship hits the iceburg. What kind of leadership is that? Capers has to go. Put me down with Herv.

Lucky 09-15-2005 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hervoyel
Has any team ever had three coaches in one season? I sense another record coming up!

Sorry, no record. :(

My exhaustive research as come up with 3 teams that had three HCs in a single season: ('78 Pats, '53 Packers, & '51 Chicago Cardinals). The '61 St. Louis Cardinals had 4 head coaches...sort of. Pop Ivy was the head coach for 12 games, while Chuck Drulis, Ray Prochaska, & Ray Wilsey were "tri-head coaches" for two games (and a 2-0 record).


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