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-   -   Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL? (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103670)

LikeMike 01-04-2014 01:15 PM

Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
Leinart, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Vince Young, Derek Carr, Doug Flutie, Bradford... lots of great college QBs fail in the NFL.

Now, we are probably pretty close to drafting our own young hopeful great college QB - so I`d like to see, why those QBs failed and if those same reasons might lead to Bridgewater, Manziel, Bortles or whoever may be at the top of our board failing.

So what do you think, why did these QB not get it done in the NFL (Bradford might still turn it around - maybe Locker as well)? And how does Bridgewarer and the others fare in those categories?

BullNation4Life 01-04-2014 01:25 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
JMO, Head coaches and OC's try and force a QB to fit their system instead of designing a system to fit their QB. If the college QB hasn't been accustomed to taking snaps from under center, then why try and force him to do so. Instead get creative and design an offense to fit those skills...

Comes down to pure ego on the HC and OC....

ArlingtonTexan 01-04-2014 02:00 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
Some the QBs listed were not even "great" college QBs. Which leads to the main reason they are not successful...

the player simply is not good enough.

Does it matter about coaching, teammates, injury, systems, etc? Yes, but pure talent/work ethic combo is your answer. It is that simple.

Texan4Ever 01-04-2014 02:25 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
There are so many what ifs and factors as to why certain players fail, it would take a lifetime to list them all. For example, what if Peyton Manning went to Detroit instead of the Colts? Would he still be successful?

What if Tim Couch went to a team with a solid offensive line and weapons around him plus having a few years to develop? Would he have been successful vs. being trust into the staring line up?

There are also players who shine in the NCAA but are complete busts in the NFL. Forget QB look at all the defensive players who have failed due to injuries or other problems (which is why I'm skeptical of Clowney).

To answer your question I think it comes down to (in no particular order):

1.) Not being placed in the right system.

2.) Being asked to do too much right away which hampers development.

3.) Injuries/overused in the college level and not having much left in the tank in the pros (true for many RBs).

Hookem Horns 01-04-2014 04:26 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LikeMike (Post 2279635)
Derek Carr

I assume you were referring to David. Derek hasn't failed yet.

I was thinking about this yesterday because of the Texans draft position. How many quality QBs are taken in the first 5 of the draft? In going with this thread we could all list a ton of guys that didn't pan out after being chosen in the first 5.

Instead of doing that, let's look at the ones that are successful. For example, look at QBs in the playoffs now. Half of them were not even taken in the first round.

Andrew Luck (taken #1 overall, however is one of those very rare can't miss guys like John Elway)

Alex Smith (taken #1 overall and didn't pan out for the team that took him. Not a franchise guy and at best a decent game manager. Not worth anywhere close to where he was taken)

Drew Brees (taken in the 2nd round)

Nick Foles (taken in the 3rd round)

Philip Rivers (taken #4 overall, not worth the #4 pick IMO)

Andy Dalton (taken in the 2nd round)

Colin Kaepernick (taken in the 2nd round)

Aaron Rogers (taken #24 overall)

Russell Wilson (taken in the 3rd round)

Tom Brady (taken in the 6th round)

Peyton Manning (#1 overall, obviously was worth going #1)

Cam Newton (#1 overall, jury is still out however having a solid season after a down season last year)

LikeMike 01-04-2014 04:40 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
Well, we have 4 that were taken first overall, one that was considered for the first pick (Rodgers) and a top 5 pick. Several guys taken later were taken later because of their size. Brady didn`t have a very impressive college career and probably is the ultimate late round pick...

IŽd say that pretty much shows, that most great QBs were either drafted high, or were wrongly judged because of their size.

What I was thinking about is stuff like:

Vince Young - bad throwing technique, immature, not too strong mentally, lacked determination to do everything he has to do to get better

Gabbert - slow through his reads, can`t handle pressure, crumbles under big hits

In those cases, IŽd say Bridgewater compares pretty good. His technique is very good, just a little low (right next to his ear) - but I don`t see this as a deal breaker. He seems to be very mature and loving the game enough to work on his craft. He had his best games on the big stage but of course it remains to be seen, how strong he is mentally. But he is very fast through his reads, excells at avoiding pressure and gets up quickly and unfazed after a big hit...

Which other weaknesses have you seen in great college QBs that failed in the NBA?

Exascor 01-04-2014 05:24 PM

While it's really fun to say we could draft the next great QB in the 2nd round or later it's like investing money in penny stocks. The draft is is risky no matter how much research teams do. The longer you wait to draft a player the bigger the failure rate. You can find undrafted players that won the superbowl. Does that mean we should just grab a UDFA QB and hope they pan out?

Trap_Star 01-04-2014 05:27 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
Same reason players from every other position also fail. it's a different game where you're no longer the big fish in the small pond. There is no guarantee of anything.

thunderkyss 01-04-2014 06:08 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
In all honesty, I don't know.

Surely there are a number of variables, but I think the most important is their drive. For some guys, the NFL is the destination. It becomes a job not very different from what we do. How many of us are recognized among the top 10, much less top 32 in our field?

For the others, that's not good enough. They want to be the best of the best..... still other wanting to be the best of all time.

TheDrifter 01-04-2014 08:27 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
I think you'll find its all over the board. The biggest reason Young failed is different than the reason Carr failed is different than the reason Locker failed.

I think the best you can do is pick a kid with drive and brains (and of course the basics to being a good QB) and hope for the best and a bit of luck.

Marcus 01-04-2014 08:46 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BullNation4Life (Post 2279644)
JMO, Head coaches and OC's try and force a QB to fit their system instead of designing a system to fit their QB. If the college QB hasn't been accustomed to taking snaps from under center, then why try and force him to do so. Instead get creative and design an offense to fit those skills...

Comes down to pure ego on the HC and OC....

Sounds like someone who is still chapped that Vince Young didn't make it. You have to be able to .. primarily .. take snaps from under center in the NFL. Anything else is just gimmickry that is eventually figured out and exposed by most defensive coordinators.

Bottom line .. these superstar college QBs that end up being busts, never learned how to "read" an NFL defense, either because they were too stupid, or didn't want to put in the effort.

Do I have any confidence that any of the current college crop will turn out to be a successful NFL QB?

None whatsoever.

Playoffs 01-04-2014 08:59 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
It's between the ears.

LikeMike 01-04-2014 09:21 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus (Post 2280020)
Sounds like someone who is still chapped that Vince Young didn't make it. You have to be able to .. primarily .. take snaps from under center in the NFL. Anything else is just gimmickry that is eventually figured out and exposed by most defensive coordinators.

Bottom line .. these superstar college QBs that end up being busts, never learned how to "read" an NFL defense, either because they were too stupid, or didn't want to put in the effort.

Do I have any confidence that any of the current college crop will turn out to be a successful NFL QB?

None whatsoever.

Hmm.. what I read about Bridgewater is, he excells at reading a defense both pre snap and after the snap. Also he seems to be extremely intelligent and love the game, so effort shouldn`t be a problem. Oh, and of course he takes the majority of snaps under center. Why don`t you think he could be successful?

Goatcheese 01-05-2014 03:47 AM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
There are a lot of reasons. Some guys just go to bad situations where they languish on a bad team with bad coaches, pick up bad habits, regress or get shell shocked from being sacked 70 times a season.

The speed and complexity of the NFL game is on a completely different level from college ball. Every defender you're facing was the best guy on his college team, the windows are smaller and close faster, reads are more complex and have to be made faster, etc.

For other guys, the celebrity and money are a distraction. In college they were still playing for their big payday, but any high pick that plays out his rookie deal is set for life. It becomes a question of commitment to being great or just doing enough not to get cut and keep the money flowing for your purple drank.

It's why teams place a lot more emphasis on the interviews while Mel and the talking hair helmets are wetting themselves over 40s. They have to try to gauge these guys and see how committed they are when they've all been coached on what to say.

Marcus 01-05-2014 01:06 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LikeMike (Post 2280043)
Hmm.. what I read about Bridgewater is, he excells at reading a defense both pre snap and after the snap. Also he seems to be extremely intelligent and love the game, so effort shouldn`t be a problem. Oh, and of course he takes the majority of snaps under center. Why don`t you think he could be successful?

Because he won't be given the chance to be successful before he ends up ruined. I don't think any rookie QB drafted would be successful here. We have trench issues upfront. There's never been a more truer axiom that says "it all starts upfront".' It astounds me sometimes how many here under appreciate the importance of it.

All I see, is another David Carr regurgitation, no matter who is drafted. I'm sorry to be so negative about it, but the way I see it, because of the fanbase's emotional need to be entertained, the cart will be put before the horse . . . again.

This last season took away any lasting desire to drink Kool-Aid folks. If you think I was a cynic before . . . stick around.

2slik4u 01-05-2014 01:36 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus (Post 2280294)
Because he won't be given the chance to be successful before he ends up ruined. I don't think any rookie QB drafted would be successful here. We have trench issues upfront. There's never been a more truer axiom that says "it all starts upfront".' It astounds me sometimes how many here under appreciate the importance of it.

All I see, is another David Carr regurgitation, no matter who is drafted. I'm sorry to be so negative about it, but the way I see it, because of the fanbase's emotional need to be entertained, the cart will be put before the horse . . . again.

This last season took away any lasting desire to drink Kool-Aid folks. If you think I was a cynic before . . . stick around.


From the center position to the left is very solid. It's the RG and RT position that suck. If we draft a right tackle and he pans out, that will elevate the RG position. Our line now compared to carrs line is worlds different. Worlds.

Not saying we are world beaters but we have two all pros on our line. We were no where close to a pro bowler with carr.

I disagree that our new guy is going to get "ruined".

Carr Bombed 01-05-2014 03:05 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
8 words.. Windows close and the speed of the game.


QBs in the college game can have all of the physical skill blessed upon them, but once they reach the NFL, they aren't throwing through wide open windows.. they're throwing through door peepholes. Which separates the men from the boys. The bust usually falls into two different categories those that are brave enough to do it and can't and then those that won't even try and become check down monsters.. (David Carr)

Then throw in the speed difference between the NCAA and the NFL and how fast those windows close.. then throw millions of dollars on top of that bonfire and you'll understand why only a small few actually are able to succeed on the football field and step through the flames.

LikeMike 01-05-2014 03:21 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus (Post 2280294)
Because he won't be given the chance to be successful before he ends up ruined. I don't think any rookie QB drafted would be successful here. We have trench issues upfront. There's never been a more truer axiom that says "it all starts upfront".' It astounds me sometimes how many here under appreciate the importance of it.

All I see, is another David Carr regurgitation, no matter who is drafted. I'm sorry to be so negative about it, but the way I see it, because of the fanbase's emotional need to be entertained, the cart will be put before the horse . . . again.

This last season took away any lasting desire to drink Kool-Aid folks. If you think I was a cynic before . . . stick around.

So you think it is more about our situation than about the players and that QBs like Bridgewater could succeed under the right circumstances?

I agree with you and the trenches - before last season I was screaming for more RT help, but most people considered other areas (ILB, OLB, NT, CB) more important.

That being said, our line does not suck. Brown had a down year, but he is still pretty good, so is Myers. And we have some young talent here including two players that got injured before last season. Of course w need to do something about our line, but if we can find one serviceable RT and a good guard around our players, FA and draft, then we`d be solid.

IDEXAN 01-05-2014 03:46 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
College QBs are use to throwing to wide open receivers, but in the NFL they have to be far more accurate with their passes because unlike in college the receivers are often tightly covered. So ultimately it boils down to passing accuracy, even more than arm strength.

Marcus 01-05-2014 04:54 PM

Re: Why do some great college QBs fail in the NFL?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LikeMike (Post 2280336)
... but if we can find one serviceable RT and a good guard around our players, FA and draft, then we`d be solid.

Wasn't that the same line that was said last year? If, if, if, if ....

Quote:

Our line does not suck.
We'll just have to agree to disagree, but then you would be wrong.;)


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