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-   -   How can this be? (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103543)

Lambert 12-24-2013 01:57 AM

How can this be?
 
Stats (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...qualified=true) have Burfict with 157 tackles. That's almost as many as Brooks Reed (51) Whitney Mercilus (46) and JJ (71) have all year.

How can this be?

Maybe you football experts can enlighten me.

Could it be:

A: Burfict is just that much better than Mercilus, JJ, and Brooks?

B: That something funny is going on with the stats?

eriadoc 12-24-2013 02:33 AM

Re: How can this be?
 
Burfict is undoubtedly better than either Mercilus or Reed, and maybe both put together. JJ Watt plays a different position and different role, so there's no comparison. And Watt is a better player anyway.

thunderkyss 12-24-2013 08:44 AM

Re: How can this be?
 
There's little comparison to any of them as Burfict plays in a 4-3, he's more of a true LB than our 3-4 OLBs who are more like DEs in a 4-3. Burfict played LB his whole college career. Neither Merci or Reed played a snap as LBs in college.


It is pretty sick how the Bengals found him undrafted though.

HOU-TEX 12-24-2013 09:06 AM

Re: How can this be?
 
Cushing would be right up there in that range had he remained healthy.

3-4 OLBs aren't comparable to ILBs or any LBs in a 4-3. And JJ's position shouldn't even be mentioned when talking about high tackle numbers.

JB 12-24-2013 09:09 AM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HOU-TEX (Post 2273388)
Cushing would be right up there in that range had he remained healthy.

3-4 OLBs aren't comparable to ILBs or any LBs in a 4-3. And JJ's position shouldn't even be mentioned when talking about high tackle numbers.

^^^ This

It's like comparing apples and coconuts

TheIronDuke 12-24-2013 09:10 AM

Re: How can this be?
 
OP has a major crush on Brooke Reed and is trying to say that just because stats show Brooke as the worst 3-4 OLB in the game that he is actually good. Anyone else who's ever watched football can watch his play and look at his pathetic stats to deduce that he is just absolutely awful and is probably the worst player we have on defense.

JB 12-24-2013 09:13 AM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheIronDuke (Post 2273393)
OP has a major crush on Brooke Reed and is trying to say that just because stats show Brooke as the worst 3-4 OLB in the game that he is actually good. Anyone else who's ever watched football can watch his play and look at his pathetic stats to deduce that he is just absolutely awful and is probably the worst player we have on defense.


Don't know about him, but I don't have a crush on Reed. But he is not near as bad as some of you make him out to be. He does just what Wade asks him to do in his position.

TheIronDuke 12-24-2013 09:27 AM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JB (Post 2273395)
Don't know about him, but I don't have a crush on Reed. But he is not near as bad as some of you make him out to be. He does just what Wade asks him to do in his position.

There was a thread I started a couple of weeks ago that detailed his number of pass rushes vs number of times hitting the QB and it was terrible. The notion that Phillips is getting what he wants from Reed is false.

Here you go:

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/sho...ghlight=Brooks

JB 12-24-2013 09:53 AM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheIronDuke (Post 2273398)
There was a thread I started a couple of weeks ago that detailed his number of pass rushes vs number of times hitting the QB and it was terrible. The notion that Phillips is getting what he wants from Reed is false.

Here you go:

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/sho...ghlight=Brooks

This is what I was referring to

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolverineFan (Post 2260479)
Not as much as other 3-4 teams, which is what I've been trying to point out for a while now.

Normal 3-4 teams like the 49ers, Browns, or Steelers have big bodied D-Linemen who plug gaps up front so the LB's can rush the passer.

Wade's scheme looks like a 3-4, but it's actually a 5-2. His D-Linemen rush the passer and the LB's plug gaps. In this case, Mercilus is a DE and rushes the passer and Reed is an OLB and plugs gaps (mainly being the contain guy to his side). Mercilus' #1 job is rushing the passer. Not so for Reed.

Reed rushes the passer after he has done his primary job of setting the edge and making sure he has contain on his side. Grading him the same way as you grade a pass rushing OLB like Ware or others is just misleading.

I do think he can be upgraded, but he is doing what he is coached to do.

silentassassin 12-24-2013 10:47 AM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderkyss (Post 2273381)
There's little comparison to any of them as Burfict plays in a 4-3, he's more of a true LB than our 3-4 OLBs who are more like DEs in a 4-3. Burfict played LB his whole college career. Neither Merci or Reed played a snap as LBs in college.


It is pretty sick how the Bengals found him undrafted though.

The guy was a lauded as a 1st-rd talent during his college career, but I think his on/off-field behavior and other things lead to the drop in his draft stock.

I don't think it was that the Bengals found him as much as it was them being the team most willing to take a chance on him. Still have to give them credit for that though.

thunderkyss 12-24-2013 10:56 AM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by silentassassin (Post 2273423)
The guy was a lauded as a 1st-rd talent during his college career, but I think his on/off-field behavior and other things lead to the drop in his draft stock.

I don't think it was that the Bengals found him as much as it was them being the team most willing to take a chance on him. Still have to give them credit for that though.

We took Sam Montgomery in the 3rd. They took this guy as an UDFA.

We're still waiting for Sharpton to come around & spent vet minimum on Joe Mays. They should get a lot of credit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB (Post 2273405)


Reed rushes the passer after he has done his primary job of setting the edge and making sure he has contain on his side. Grading him the same way as you grade a pass rushing OLB like Ware or others is just misleading.

I do think he can be upgraded, but he is doing what he is coached to do.

There are situations when setting the edge is not his primary concern. When the Texans are expecting pass, he shouldn't be worried about setting the edge. 3rd & 20+ we've been in plenty of those situations & Reed still can't sniff the QB.

He's a fine football player, I'm not saying different, but he is not a pass rusher. Not in a 3-4

Playoffs 12-24-2013 11:31 AM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lambert (Post 2273338)
Stats ...
How can this be?

Firstly, tackle statistics in the NFL are... non-standardized, to put it politely:

The NFL's Make-Believe Stat
Quote:

Even though tackle statistics are widely cited by the media and are always included in the official summaries NFL teams put out after every game, the league doesn't consider this an "official" statistic. In other words, the league doesn't verify it or take any responsibility for whether it's accurate. "The stats crews at each NFL stadium track tackle totals," a league spokesman explained.
Quote:

But unlike a completion or an interception—which are seldom up for dispute—tackles are granted in split-second judgment calls by a scorekeeper hired by the home team. In many cases, this decidedly analog system creates some results that leave the players scratching their helmets...
One reason I prefer ProFootballFocus, as they keep their own statistics watching every play on the All-22. And they don't "gift" tackles. For instance, if a QB trips over his shoelaces in the backfield the NFL insists on awarding a sack to the closest player(s) -- PFF doesn't do stuff like that.

So PFF's tackle statistics for the aforementioned are as follows: Burfict 111, Reed 33, Mercilus 29, and Watt 57. (And FYI, Sharpton 62, Mays 51 both playing 30-40% less)

So on to Burfict et al. It's how they're schemed/used...

Burfict 4-3 OLB spends 55% of the time in pass coverage, 36% in run defense, and just 8% in pass rush.
Code:

Play Counts       
Total        Run Def.        Pass Rush        Pass Cov.        % Snaps
973        350                84                539                95.8

Reed 3-4 OLB Reed spends just 11% in pass coverage, 44% run defense, and 45% in pass rush.
Code:

Play Counts       
Total        Run Def.        Pass Rush        Pass Cov.        % Snaps
972        432                434                106                97.9

Mercilus 3-4 OLB spends just 4% in pass coverage, 45% in run defense, and 51% in pass rush.
Code:

Play Counts       
Total        Run Def.        Pass Rush        Pass Cov.        % Snaps
917        410                470                37                92.3

Burfict's defensive snap count is 78% higher than the next highest Cincinnati LB's, so it looks like he's more a 3-down drop/coverage "middle fielder" than what you'd expect from a typical OLB. And teams may be attacking Burfict more often.

NastyNate 12-24-2013 04:11 PM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderkyss (Post 2273381)
There's little comparison to any of them as Burfict plays in a 4-3, he's more of a true LB than our 3-4 OLBs who are more like DEs in a 4-3. Burfict played LB his whole college career. Neither Merci or Reed played a snap as LBs in college.


It is pretty sick how the Bengals found him undrafted though.

He doesn't interview well, if at all really. Most interviews in college would go along the lines of "How do you see yourself translating to the NFL?"

"Um, good."

Plus the incident where he tussled with a teammate on the sidelines didn't do him any favors. Even with all that said, my buddies can attest to how much I was screaming at the TV during the 2012 draft. Oh jesus I can feel my blood boiling again just thinking about it. He was the best linebacker talent in that class by FAR and nobody would even take a 5th or 6th round flyer on him. Instead we got... f@#king Randy Bullock and Nick Mondek. My blood boils still thinking about it.

Cincinnati has that position locked up for a long time if he stays healthy. His closing speed and instincts are insane and his 40 didn't broadcast that enough. Such a good talent. Damn you Phillips.

infantrycak 12-24-2013 04:32 PM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NastyNate (Post 2273518)
He doesn't interview well, if at all really. Most interviews in college would go along the lines of "How do you see yourself translating to the NFL?"

"Um, good."

Plus the incident where he tussled with a teammate on the sidelines didn't do him any favors. Even with all that said, my buddies can attest to how much I was screaming at the TV during the 2012 draft. Oh jesus I can feel my blood boiling again just thinking about it. He was the best linebacker talent in that class by FAR and nobody would even take a 5th or 6th round flyer on him. Instead we got... f@#king Randy Bullock and Nick Mondek. My blood boils still thinking about it.

Cincinnati has that position locked up for a long time if he stays healthy. His closing speed and instincts are insane and his 40 didn't broadcast that enough. Such a good talent. Damn you Phillips.

You left out quite a bit there. In college he was a personal foul magnet to the point he was benched despite his good play, causing a loss along the way. Plus his junior season was off and he decided to go pro anyway. Those bad interviews were bad in part because he is reported to have blamed the coaches for his bad junior year. Then he was the slowest LB at the combine at a ridiculous 5.09 and was reported to have tested positive for pot. Plus there was some sort of off the field issue I can't recall. Glad to see he is turning out but you need to tack on another 31 teams along with the Texans who jointly didn't think he was worth a draft pick.

steelbtexan 12-24-2013 06:30 PM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by infantrycak (Post 2273527)
You left out quite a bit there. In college he was a personal foul magnet to the point he was benched despite his good play, causing a loss along the way. Plus his junior season was off and he decided to go pro anyway. Those bad interviews were bad in part because he is reported to have blamed the coaches for his bad junior year. Then he was the slowest LB at the combine at a ridiculous 5.09 and was reported to have tested positive for pot. Plus there was some sort of off the field issue I can't recall. Glad to see he is turning out but you need to tack on another 31 teams along with the Texans who jointly didn't think he was worth a draft pick.

Yep no need to take chances on troubled but talented guys in rds 5-7.

Guys I would consider taking in rds 5-7 this yr include,

Lyerla 1st rd talent, FA brain.
Dyer, Same
Crowell, Same
Seantrel Henderson

infantrycak 12-24-2013 06:43 PM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by steelbtexan (Post 2273541)
Yep no need to take chances on troubled but talented guys in rds 5-7.

Quite the opposite. I advocate taking flyers in those rounds on guys whose performance would have them several rounds above but are troubled in some fashion. But the full list of this guys' problems wasn't being provided. Would totally approve of having picked him or that WR that fell out of the draft last year.

mussop 12-24-2013 11:16 PM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by infantrycak (Post 2273543)
Quite the opposite. I advocate taking flyers in those rounds on guys whose performance would have them several rounds above but are troubled in some fashion. But the full list of this guys' problems wasn't being provided. Would totally approve of having picked him or that WR that fell out of the draft last year.

Agree, this is where you take those chances. I was begging for him in the 5th. Couldn't believe we passed on him again in the six and seventh.

Here is an old post of mine on him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mussop (Post 1891264)
here you go wolf6151 take a look a this. If you want a hard nosed defense that can get after people you need players like this. His closing speed is phenomenal. There is no other LB like him in this draft. Luke Kuechly, ILB, Boston College is the top rated ILB on every list i come to and racks up amazing stats but doesn't come close to Burfict IMO. In fact I don't think Luke will be that good in the NFL but that is for another thread.

Vontaze Burfict, ILB, Arizona State #7 Jr 6-3 250

video highlight
video highlight
video highlights show good and bad although most of the bad aint that bad.
video interview sounds like a good guy.

GOOGLE LINK


“For every great story you have about Vontaze,” says Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck, “another guy on another team will say he has one better.”

Here’s the best one of all: The toughest, meanest, nastiest player in the college game—the guy opponents fear and officials target, the guy once benched by his own coach because his violent makeup led to too many personal fouls—barely says two words away from his 53⅓-by-100-yard lined playground.

He is the ultimate enigma. A shy and reserved son who loves his mother and football and focuses on little else and a destructive, intimidating linebacker whose exploits have become so famous—or infamous, depending on how you see it—he has become a YouTube phenom.

Don’t believe it? Type Vontaze Burfict into the search field, and watch the ensuing carnage.

A Pac-12 coach calls him “deliciously violent.” An NFL scout calls him “what you get after you kick Ray Lewis’ dog.”



Read more:


NastyNate 12-25-2013 06:53 AM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by infantrycak (Post 2273527)
You left out quite a bit there. In college he was a personal foul magnet to the point he was benched despite his good play, causing a loss along the way. Plus his junior season was off and he decided to go pro anyway. Those bad interviews were bad in part because he is reported to have blamed the coaches for his bad junior year. Then he was the slowest LB at the combine at a ridiculous 5.09 and was reported to have tested positive for pot. Plus there was some sort of off the field issue I can't recall. Glad to see he is turning out but you need to tack on another 31 teams along with the Texans who jointly didn't think he was worth a draft pick.

He could have beat his sunday school teacher with a ruler and I'd still be on board. You don't let first round talent fall through your hands when you have a chance to snatch them in the 5th 6th or even 7th round (I know we didn't have a 7th rounder that draft). Hell even UDFA you extend a bigger offer with incentives. IF he pans out that's money well spent. If he doesn't, almost none of that contract is guaranteed and it certainly isn't hitting your cap that year if it is incentive based.

We take a 3rd round shot at Sam Montgomery and pass on Vontaze Burfict... Boy do we ever draft well.

bah007 12-25-2013 10:42 AM

Re: How can this be?
 
Funny how revisionist history always turns its head when a guy like Burfict ends up working out.

I remember talking this guy up before the draft despite his problems. I wouldn't have used a first round pick on him, but I advocated using a third (NFL GMs obviously disagreed with me). Most of you guys were on board with me until he had that god awful combine performance. I can't remember a single person on this board talking up Burfict after that, so it's funny to see people popping out of the woodwork now that he's had some NFL success.

NastyNate 12-25-2013 09:43 PM

Re: How can this be?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bah007 (Post 2273628)
Funny how revisionist history always turns its head when a guy like Burfict ends up working out.

I remember talking this guy up before the draft despite his problems. I wouldn't have used a first round pick on him, but I advocated using a third (NFL GMs obviously disagreed with me). Most of you guys were on board with me until he had that god awful combine performance. I can't remember a single person on this board talking up Burfict after that, so it's funny to see people popping out of the woodwork now that he's had some NFL success.

I was still all aboard in March after the combine, check my post history.


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