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-   -   Stats for perspective (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102818)

speedfreek 11-04-2013 08:45 AM

Stats for perspective
 
Ok we did this for KC, lets do it for Indy

Kaepernick vs Indy.
C/ATT - 13/27
YDS - 150
AVG - 5.6
TD - 0
INT - 1
SACKS - 3-11
QBR - 11.8
RTG - 49.9

Wilson vs. Indy.
C/ATT - 15/31
YDS - 210
AVG - 6.8
TD - 2
INT - 1
SACKS - 2-5
QBR - 67.1
RTG - 78.7

Keenum vs. Indy.
C/ATT - 20/34
YDS - 350
AVG - 10.3
TD - 3
INT - 0
SACKS - 1-10
QBR - 96.6
RTG - 123.4

So, here's my question. If you take Keenum off the Texans
and Kaepernick off the 49ers which team has the better players
remaining, SF or Houston? (injured players and coaching
staffs considered as well..)

If you take Keenum off the Texans and Wilson off of the Seahawks
which team has the better players remaining, Seattle or Houston?

That's one reason I argue that if we take a QB it should be in
round 2. We have too many needs to pass up the "best available"
in round 1.

People are consistently saying that because Keenum was an UDFA
that we need to address the QB position first in the draft.

Given that Luck, Kaepernic, and Wilson all went higer than Keenum, and
Keenum's numbers are better than all of them in head to head
I just don't see the argument that Keenums UDFA status means
anything other than the 31 other teams failed to grade him correctly..

TJ

mattieuk 11-04-2013 03:45 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
I think part of the issue is the changing atmosphere in the league from a pocket passer, to a mobile run play making quaterback.

Some teams (especially ourselves) have been late to the party with regards to finding a QB who has a good skillset for the modern league.

Either way, I definately don't want to be burning a 1st round pick at this point on a QB. We'll see how Case does here on out, and then assess the situation at the end of the year when we know if his early outstanding play is just due to defenses being caught out, or whether he really is a starter in the NFL.

Mr teX 11-04-2013 03:55 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mattieuk (Post 2242950)
I think part of the issue is the changing atmosphere in the league from a pocket passer, to a mobile run play making quaterback.
Some teams (especially ourselves) have been late to the party with regards to finding a QB who has a good skillset for the modern league.

Either way, I definately don't want to be burning a 1st round pick at this point on a QB. We'll see how Case does here on out, and then assess the situation at the end of the year when we know if his early outstanding play is just due to defenses being caught out, or whether he really is a starter in the NFL.

People keep saying the bolded...but the best qb's in the league are still pocket passers..

Manning
Brady
Brees
Rodgers
Luck
Stafford
Ryan

hell, even the guys who can run are trying to curb their impulses b/c they know you're not gonna be able to make a living long term doing that as RG3 found out last year & what Wilson knew from the jump.

The only thing that's changing is teams are becoming more open minded when it comes to taking on the atypical qb from a measureables standpoint b/c they know they may have a chance to win with them..... early on anyway.

GuerillaBlack 11-04-2013 04:00 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Brees, Rodgers, Luck, Stafford, and sometimes Ryan can still escape and have some mobility to them to run for a first down or throw on the run. TBH, Brady and Manning are becoming the exception to this new wave of young QBs.

mattieuk 11-04-2013 04:03 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr teX (Post 2242956)
People keep saying the bolded...but the best qb's in the league are still pocket passers..

Manning
Brady
Brees
Rodgers
Luck
Stafford
Ryan

hell, even the guys who can run are trying to curb their impulses b/c they know you're not gonna be able to make a living long term doing that as RG3 found out last year & what Wilson knew from the jump.

The only thing that's changing is teams are becoming more open minded when it comes to taking on the atypical qb from a measureables standpoint b/c they know they may have a chance to win with them..... early on anyway.

That may be true, but most of that list are established QBs from the previous generation of QBs in the league. Whilst we don't know whether the trend is going to die out, with players like RGIII, Wilson, Manuel and Kaepernick emerging there will be a strong test to teams and their ethos. I think the majority of teams who don't have one of those guys that you mentioned will be strong armed into taking QBs of that ilk by convention and fanbases alike.

Either way - I think that with the completely different criteria of judging QBs that the mobile QB influx will mean that there is much more value down the board as teams try to figure out what mobile QBs have the level of skillset to make it in the modern NFL.

By the way - completely agree about limiting plays with the legs. RGIII learnt the hard way - hopefully others can pick up the lesson from the outset like Wilson and Kaepernick have done.

Mr teX 11-04-2013 04:09 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GuerillaBlack (Post 2242960)
Brees, Rodgers, Luck, Stafford, and sometimes Ryan can still escape and have some mobility to them to run for a first down or throw on the run. TBH, Brady and Manning are becoming the exception to this new wave of young QBs.

All the guys i listed can do it if they have to....hell ancient ass Peyton Manning has a rushing TD this year on a bootleg...:mariopalm: What i mean to say is the pass is 1st, 2nd and 3rd..options for all those guys..running the ball is a distant 100th option for them. Not the case with alot of these young mobile guys...lone exception is Wilson.

ziggy29 11-04-2013 04:14 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr teX (Post 2242956)
People keep saying the bolded...but the best qb's in the league are still pocket passers..

Manning
Brady
Brees
Rodgers
Luck
Stafford
Ryan

Pocket passers mainly, sure, BUT -- unlike Schaub, most of these guys can "feel" the rush and get out of the pocket or step up in the pocket to buy a few more seconds to make a play.

To me it's less important whether you are a "scrambling" QB or one that prefers to stay in the pocket. What's most important is the ability to sense the rush coming, move just enough to buy time to make a play, and if the play isn't there.... don't make a terrible decision throwing into coverage or telegraph your decision to the defense.

speedfreek 11-04-2013 04:19 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Since we are bringing up pocket passers like Manning...

Here is Manning vs. Colts

C/ATT - 29/49
YDS - 386
AVG - 7.9
TD - 3
INT - 1
SACKS - 4-21
QBR - 57.9
RTG - 96.1

Once again, remove Keenum from the (current) Texans
and Manning from the Broncos -- which team has the better
talent?

TJ

ziggy29 11-04-2013 04:24 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by speedfreek (Post 2242977)
Once again, remove Keenum from the (current) Texans and Manning from the Broncos -- which team has the better
talent?

Denver (or should I say Enver?) has no D. They are giving up more than twice as many points per game as KC and Carolina.

Without Manning they'd certainly have to find new ways to win.

speedfreek 11-04-2013 05:31 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
>Without Manning they'd certainly have to find new ways to win.

My point, in putting things this way, was that with no Daniels,
no Foster, Ben Tate with broken ribs, no Manning, no Cushing,
and no OC in the second half Keenum put up better QB numbers
than Manning, Wilson, Kaepernick, and Luck, and those QB's
have better teams.

That's all I'm saying.

I expect Case to stumble. He is, essentially, a first year guy.
He's going to have his bad games. But right now, the guy is
impressing the hell out of me.

Imagine if he can get even better. Perhaps we can even win
some games _in spite_ of a crappy special teams and a defense
that keeps choking in crunch time..

TJ

GuerillaBlack 11-04-2013 06:31 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr teX (Post 2242971)
All the guys i listed can do it if they have to....hell ancient ass Peyton Manning has a rushing TD this year on a bootleg...:mariopalm: What i mean to say is the pass is 1st, 2nd and 3rd..options for all those guys..running the ball is a distant 100th option for them. Not the case with alot of these young mobile guys...lone exception is Wilson.

So you think Keenum tries to run around first before passing it? He is pocket first, but can use his mobility like the others I listed...

thunderkyss 11-05-2013 12:40 AM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by speedfreek (Post 2242508)
That's one reason I argue that if we take a QB it should be in
round 2. We have too many needs to pass up the "best available"
in round 1.

People are consistently saying that because Keenum was an UDFA
that we need to address the QB position first in the draft.

I agree. I want an OG to replace Wade, I want a OT to replace Newton & have potential to play the left side if we need him to. If Brennan Williams turns out to be healthy, great. If not..... SoS different year.

I want a bad ass ILB next to Cushing & if he outplays Cushing & Cushing is only playing 2 downs, anyone talking about cutting him needs to get a foot shoved straight up their....

speedfreek 11-05-2013 07:38 AM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/3507065/heycase.gif

TJ

mussop 11-05-2013 10:35 AM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderkyss (Post 2243243)
I agree. I want an OG to replace Wade, I want a OT to replace Newton & have potential to play the left side if we need him to. If Brennan Williams turns out to be healthy, great. If not..... SoS different year.

I want a bad ass ILB next to Cushing & if he outplays Cushing & Cushing is only playing 2 downs, anyone talking about cutting him needs to get a foot shoved straight up their....

Your both crazy. You don't pass up an opportunity to draft a franchise QB if you have the chance. Not saying we will have that chance. But if we do you don't pass it up. Even if case looks good the rest of the season.

Exascor 11-05-2013 11:06 AM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mussop (Post 2243331)
Your both crazy. You don't pass up an opportunity to draft a franchise QB if you have the chance. Not saying we will have that chance. But if we do you don't pass it up. Even if case looks good the rest of the season.

If Keenum performs at 90% of the level he did in the first 2 games, would he not be a "franchise" QB? Would he not have done enough to have been drafted in the first round given the 10 games against NFL competition? That's NFL (ie better than SEC) competition for a full college season length. Would he not be drafted ahead of around 10 current starting NFL QBs? How many 1st round QBs end up being busts instead of franchise QBs anyways?

For perspective - Keenum's 2013 stats if he were to perform at 90% of his first 2 games for the remaining 8:
2853 yards, 18 tds 8 ints (1 int per game remaining)

for a full 16 game season:
4565 yards, 28 tds 12 ints (1 int per game not played)

At 100% for a 16 game season he'd be considered a top 5 QB:
5136 yards, 32 tds 0 ints

There isn't an Andrew Luck, RGIII, Cam Newton, Matt Stafford... in this draft that I can see. There's more Andy Dalton, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert & Alex Smiths. Solid but not sure things.

Why not plug a sure hole with the high pick and take a flyer on a QB in the 2nd or 3rd rounds to keep Keenum competing? He isn't going to reach the numbers I posted but... Seems like no matter what Keenum does he'll always be doubted because of his draft status.

76Texan 11-05-2013 12:48 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
I wouldn't worry.
Keenum will grow on people.

I've said this before, it doesn't matter how you start, it's how you finish.
If Keenum is the cream, he will rise.

Hervoyel 11-05-2013 01:10 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Exascor (Post 2243351)
If Keenum performs at 90% of the level he did in the first 2 games, would he not be a "franchise" QB? Would he not have done enough to have been drafted in the first round given the 10 games against NFL competition? That's NFL (ie better than SEC) competition for a full college season length. Would he not be drafted ahead of around 10 current starting NFL QBs? How many 1st round QBs end up being busts instead of franchise QBs anyways?

For perspective - Keenum's 2013 stats if he were to perform at 90% of his first 2 games for the remaining 8:
2853 yards, 18 tds 8 ints (1 int per game remaining)

for a full 16 game season:
4565 yards, 28 tds 12 ints (1 int per game not played)

At 100% for a 16 game season he'd be considered a top 5 QB:
5136 yards, 32 tds 0 ints

There isn't an Andrew Luck, RGIII, Cam Newton, Matt Stafford... in this draft that I can see. There's more Andy Dalton, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert & Alex Smiths. Solid but not sure things.

Why not plug a sure hole with the high pick and take a flyer on a QB in the 2nd or 3rd rounds to keep Keenum competing? He isn't going to reach the numbers I posted but... Seems like no matter what Keenum does he'll always be doubted because of his draft status.

I agree with everything you said but you somehow put Blaine Gabbert in a list of "solid but not sure things" QB's. I'd go get a thermometer and take your temperature. Maybe take a day off just in case you're coming down with something. ;)

Hervoyel 11-05-2013 01:12 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 76Texan (Post 2243428)
I wouldn't worry.
Keenum will grow on people.

I've said this before, it doesn't matter how you start, it's how you finish.
If Keenum is the cream, he will rise.


We had a lot of "Just because he's the same height doesn't mean he's going to be another Drew Brees!" posts a while back and I've gotta say that if he keeps up the level of play he's given us so far and continues to improve then that's pretty much exactly what he looks like to me.

Exascor 11-05-2013 01:47 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hervoyel (Post 2243461)
I agree with everything you said but you somehow put Blaine Gabbert in a list of "solid but not sure things" QB's. I'd go get a thermometer and take your temperature. Maybe take a day off just in case you're coming down with something. ;)

lol. Must spread rep Herv. Frankly, I'm really not sure where his name came from. I am retarded for including him and should be forced to "Keep Choppin' Wood" in the Jags locker room for all eternity. :bat:

76Texan 11-05-2013 01:52 PM

Re: Stats for perspective
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Exascor (Post 2243490)
lol. Must spread rep Herv. Frankly, I'm really not sure where his name came from. I am retarded for including him and should be forced to "Keep Choppin' Wood" in the Jags locker room for all eternity. :bat:

Hahahaha!


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