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-   -   Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game? (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102643)

Lord Bills 10-21-2013 01:48 PM

Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
The entire game, Keenum was not running our traditional offense. We went exclusively to the pistol shotgun formation.

Why?

In this video Kubiak talks about having to make a complete change to what they did. Talks about having only 1 week to prepare:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-te...ess-conference

It was as if he was using it as an excuse as to why they lost.

My question is, why? Why did you have to completely change your system? I understand going with what Keenum was familiar with but why? He was on your roster learning the playbook the entire year last year on practice squad plus this year where he showed great competence in this preseason.

Why in the world would you go away from that? Why didnt you give Keenum a chance to play in your system? Did Kubiak not think he could be successful in his sytem he's been learning for the last 2 years? Did he not want Keenum to be successful in his system?

I dont get the sudden change. Why let Yates and Schaub run it but not keenum?

I find this totally odd.

utahmark 10-21-2013 01:57 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Bills (Post 2235573)
The entire game, Keenum was not running our traditional offense. We went exclusively to the pistol shotgun formation.

Why?

In this video Kubiak talks about having to make a complete change to what they did. Talks about having only 1 week to prepare:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-te...ess-conference

It was as if he was using it as an excuse as to why they lost.

My question is, why? Why did you have to completely change your system? I understand going with what Keenum was familiar with but why? He was on your roster learning the playbook the entire year last year on practice squad plus this year where he showed great competence in this preseason.

Why in the world would you go away from that? Why didnt you give Keenum a chance to play in your system? Did Kubiak not think he could be successful in his sytem he's been learning for the last 2 years? Did he not want Keenum to be successful in his system?

I dont get the sudden change. Why let Yates and Schaub run it but not keenum?

I find this totally odd.

We need change. Go back and watch our first 6 games.

The Pencil Neck 10-21-2013 01:58 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
The offensive playbook is large. (People are always whining about the size of his Denny's menu... which is just silliness.)

Kubiak tries to call plays that are best suited to the personnel available. All coaches do that.

Personally, I find it interesting that Kubiak added the Pistol to the playbook in the offseason. It's almost like he was expecting to incorporate some stuff for Case.

But it's like Shanahan up in Washington with RGIII. He's trying to be successful and he's willing to experiment and change things up to do that.

Mr teX 10-21-2013 02:13 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Bills (Post 2235573)
The entire game, Keenum was not running our traditional offense. We went exclusively to the pistol shotgun formation.

Why?

In this video Kubiak talks about having to make a complete change to what they did. Talks about having only 1 week to prepare:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-te...ess-conference

It was as if he was using it as an excuse as to why they lost.

My question is, why? Why did you have to completely change your system? I understand going with what Keenum was familiar with but why? He was on your roster learning the playbook the entire year last year on practice squad plus this year where he showed great competence in this preseason.

Why in the world would you go away from that? Why didnt you give Keenum a chance to play in your system? Did Kubiak not think he could be successful in his sytem he's been learning for the last 2 years? Did he not want Keenum to be successful in his system?

I dont get the sudden change. Why let Yates and Schaub run it but not keenum?

I find this totally odd.

Look, it was a last ditch effort to save the season & he had a rookie qb making his 1st start in a hostile enviornment vs. a top defense...using concepts & running plays he was already familar with made Keenum feel more comfy & gave him the best chance to suceed & us pull out the victory.

In addition to that, it was clear from our 1st 6 games, teams were on to us.. we had to make serious changes with how we call plays instead of 1-2 tendency breakers like we'd been doing.

Lord Bills 10-21-2013 02:14 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by utahmark (Post 2235590)
We need change. Go back and watch our first 6 games.

i get it. That's why keenum is starting instead of Yates.

Why completely change the playbook? Its not like they just signed Keenum. The man has been here the past two years learning the offense. Why completely abandon your system?

Arent you trying to find out what you have in keenum? What's the point of playing him if your not gonna allow him to run your offense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck (Post 2235593)
The offensive playbook is large. (People are always whining about the size of his Denny's menu... which is just silliness.)

Kubiak tries to call plays that are best suited to the personnel available. All coaches do that.

Personally, I find it interesting that Kubiak added the Pistol to the playbook in the offseason. It's almost like he was expecting to incorporate some stuff for Case.

But it's like Shanahan up in Washington with RGIII. He's trying to be successful and he's willing to experiment and change things up to do that.

I understand incorporating some stuff keenum is familiar with but to completely abandon and change your system is just not smart. What's the point of playing Keenum if you are not gonna find out if he can run your system or not?

I think it was detrimental both to Keenum and the rest of the offense to completely change how you play. I bet that drastic change attributed to a lot of the sacks and lack of blitz coverage.

Keenum has spent to year learning your system, played well enough in preseason to make the team, suddenly its his turn to play and you dont play your system.

This is just bizarre in my eyes.

Lord Bills 10-21-2013 02:18 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr teX (Post 2235612)
Look, it was a last ditch effort to save the season & he had a rookie qb making his 1st start in a hostile enviornment vs. a top defense...using concepts & running plays he was already familar made him feel more comfy gave him the best chance to suceed & us pull out the victory.

that makes no sense whatsoever. Keenum has spent the last two years learning his sytem and played well enough to make the team and play great in preseason using your system.

why suddenly pull that chair from under not only keenum but the rest of your offense? I bet that drastic change contributed to a lot of the blitz problems. Why not run what your team knows how to run and what your young qb has been learning and studying the last two years?

Arent you trying to figure out what you have in keenum? Dont you want to see if he can run your system?

To completely abandon what your team knows and what your young qb has been trying to learn and study the past two years is just asinine.

htownfan32 10-21-2013 02:29 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Kekkest of keks. People say Kubes is too reliant on his old outdated system, and when he opens it up to help out his personnel (i.e. Keenum) be successful, he gets railed on for not doing it the same way he was before.

Lord Bills 10-21-2013 02:32 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by htownfan32 (Post 2235648)
Kekkest of keks. People say Kubes is too reliant on his old outdated system, and when he opens it up to help out his personnel (i.e. Keenum) be successful, he gets railed on for not doing it the same way he was before.

he completely abandon what the whole offense knew!!! what his qb has spent the past two years learning.

why didnt he just implement some pistol shotgun, why did he totally abandon his system?

Dont you think that's detrimental to your players and chances?

welsh texan 10-21-2013 02:36 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
How much of the texans offense has Keenum actually ran in practice given that he's been on the scout team his entire career till last week?

I take it apart from training camp that means he is running the upcoming opponents playbook against our 1st string D in order for them to learn??

Speedy 10-21-2013 02:36 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
And if Graham catches that ball, if the throw to Nuk was a little better or Nuk finds a way to hang onto it, if both RBs don't go down, there'd be no need for a thread like this. Not that there is a need for it anyway.

thunderkyss 10-21-2013 02:37 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Bills (Post 2235573)
The entire game, Keenum was not running our traditional offense. We went exclusively to the pistol shotgun formation.

Why?

In this video Kubiak talks about having to make a complete change to what they did. Talks about having only 1 week to prepare:

My question is, why? Why did you have to completely change your system? I understand going with what Keenum was familiar with but why? He was on your roster learning the playbook the entire year last year on practice squad plus this year where he showed great competence in this preseason.

Why in the world would you go away from that? Why didnt you give Keenum a chance to play in your system? Did Kubiak not think he could be successful in his sytem he's been learning for the last 2 years? Did he not want Keenum to be successful in his system?

I dont get the sudden change. Why let Yates and Schaub run it but not keenum?

I find this totally odd.

The third string QB runs the scout team. He does not run our offense. Instead, he tries to mimic the other teams offense. His job is to give the defense certain "looks"

After training camp & preseason, our ones on offense do not practice against our ones on defense. They practice against a scout team.

Keenum has been in the QB meeting room with Yates & Schaub, but on the field he has not been practicing/learning our offense.

Mr teX 10-21-2013 02:38 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Bills (Post 2235622)
that makes no sense whatsoever. Keenum has spent the last two years learning his sytem and played well enough to make the team and play great in preseason using your system.

why suddenly pull that chair from under not only keenum but the rest of your offense? I bet that drastic change contributed to a lot of the blitz problems. Why not run what your team knows how to run and what your young qb has been learning and studying the last two years?

Arent you trying to figure out what you have in keenum? Dont you want to see if he can run your system?

To completely abandon what your team knows and what your young qb has been trying to learn and study the past two years is just asinine.

That stuff is likely already in the playbook u just don't see them as often with Schaub.....I know I've seen the TE throw back pass graham dropped before...
I'm sure all those guys have packages that they work best out of on kubiak's Denny's menu...

Playoffs 10-21-2013 02:38 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Keenum Separated
Quote:

What was most interesting was how the Texans installed plays that put Keenum in the shotgun and even occasionally in the pistol. Those moves hint at the bigger schematic change that could be to come for the Texans. As Chris Brown noted during the game on Twitter...
Quote:

Smart Football ‏@smartfootball
Quote:

Big pass from Case Keenum to DeVier Posey came on an old Kevin Sumlin packaged play of Y-stick with inside zone. Keenum read OLB for throw

the Texans even took things a step further.

Check out this 42-yard pass to DeVier Posey, most of which comes after the catch. It's a simple packaged play with two primary options based off a simple read of the outside linebacker to that side, Justin Houston. If Houston contests the five-yard stick route being run by Posey in the slot, Keenum has the numbers to run the inside zone and hand the ball off to his running back. If Houston rushes the passer or contests the running play, it's his job to throw Posey open; since the inside linebacker honors the run-action, he throws the ball inside and Posey makes a tackler miss.

Now, packaged plays aren't anything new to the NFL, and I haven't watched every Texans snap over the past few years, but I don't think Gary Kubiak had this in his playbook for Schaub. It's reminiscent of the offensive scheme Keenum ran in college, and it's no surprise that Kubiak installed it to give Keenum a play he was experienced and comfortable running during a testing first start.

Here's where it gets interesting. You can't install a new offense overnight, nor would you want to. What you do need is the free time — say, a bye week — to install some new offensive concepts. Guess what the Texans have this week? Kubiak undoubtedly won't want to scrap his entire offensive playbook and just run the spread, but if he's going to keep playing Keenum, he'll want to integrate the things that work from his zone-blocking rushing attack with some concepts and plays from the playbook Keenum worked with at the University of Houston.

Lord Bills 10-21-2013 02:44 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Playoffs (Post 2235672)

i get using plays he's familiar with, but to completely abandon what your whole offense knows and what your young qb spent the last two years learning is just not smart.

incorporate plays he's familiar with. Not completely abandon what your team knows. Its i think the main reason why the offensive line played so horribly yesterday.

welsh texan 10-21-2013 02:44 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderkyss (Post 2235669)
The third string QB runs the scout team. He does not run our offense. Instead, he tries to mimic the other teams offense. His job is to give the defense certain "looks"

After training camp & preseason, our ones on offense do not practice against our ones on defense. They practice against a scout team.

Keenum has been in the QB meeting room with Yates & Schaub, but on the field he has not been practicing/learning our offense.


Beat ya to it buddy!!

Lord Bills 10-21-2013 02:49 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderkyss (Post 2235669)
The third string QB runs the scout team. He does not run our offense. Instead, he tries to mimic the other teams offense. His job is to give the defense certain "looks"

After training camp & preseason, our ones on offense do not practice against our ones on defense. They practice against a scout team.

Keenum has been in the QB meeting room with Yates & Schaub, but on the field he has not been practicing/learning our offense.

that still doesnt excuse abandoning your entire offensive system and installing an offense the rest of your team doesnt really know.

your telling me all keenum has done to familiarize himself with this offense is just to sit in the QB meeting room is a cope out joke. I reckon these last two years keenum has run more reps in this system and it would have served the texans better if they just incorporated some plays instead of drastically abandoning your entire system that your entire offense including your young qb knows.

Learning the system for two years running it in practice > using a system nobody knows but keenum in practice for 1 week.

EVOLVIST 10-21-2013 02:58 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Playoffs (Post 2235672)

And here's the rub: I would be very surprised if we didn't see the Texans use Case under center, as well, come the Indy game (of course, that is IF Keenum starts). We saw a lot of Case under center in the pre-season, with the exception of the last game, where he was in the pistol a lot. He looked damn good under center, compared to last year. Natural, even.

When you have a QB who can do both effectively - added to an already confusing Texans scheme, which makes it difficult for a defense to tell pre-snap whether it's a run or pass - then it begins to smell a lot more like victory (at least in theory).

Another factor: let's face it, as good as Arian is - and I'd like a breakdown on this, because I'm going by the ol' eyeball test - Arian does not seem to run well out of shotgun. Arian needs to be "seen" by the defense, only when he has passed them...not before.

I'm just saying the flexibility is there for Keenum unlike any other QB on roster. In the words of Kubiak, "That's a good problem to have."

welsh texan 10-21-2013 02:59 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
So you don't tailor your gameplan to make the most of the most important position on the field (QB) and his strengths?

You don't tailor your gameplan to the strengths of your least experienced, most likely to make rookie type errors, most likely to lose the game for you if he gets it wrong (in this case QB).

I just don't get what point you are trying to make here, I thought the offense showed a big step forward in this game, as much as I'm a case fan there was no guarantee he wasn't going to be well and truly outpf his depth.

You'd rather see a different QB make the same plays Schaub made? Did you think our offense was doing well before? Are you Matt Schaub??

The d lost this game, the chiefs were able to march down the field on us at will, despite having Alex smith at QB. The o wasn't fantastic but not bad for a first ever start for the kid at QB and given how poor it's been to date.

Good to see receivers getting big gains rather than just dink and dunk too, felt like every other completion was a 30 yarder.

Great to see posey flashing again too, that was a bad injury and he seems to be back on track quickly.

Scooter 10-21-2013 03:01 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
as welsh and TK have said, it's more about what keenum has been running and comfortable with. give him 2 weeks with the first stringers and kubiak can implement a more natural scheme that also allows for more adjustments. as it was we only had a week to put together something the offense as a whole could run successfully. there simply wasnt time to put case into matt schaub's offense, so we used what we could assemble in a few days.

htownfan32 10-21-2013 03:07 PM

Re: Why In the World did We Not Use our OFFENSIVE SYSTEM in this Game?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EVOLVIST (Post 2235701)
And here's the rub: I would be very surprised if we didn't see the Texans use Case under center, as well, come the Indy game (of course, that is IF Keenum starts). We saw a lot of Case under center in the pre-season, with the exception of the last game, where he was in the pistol a lot. He looked damn good under center, compared to last year. Natural, even.

When you have a QB who can do both effectively - added to an already confusing Texans scheme, which makes it difficult for a defense to tell pre-snap whether it's a run or pass - then it begins to smell a lot more like victory (at least in theory).

Another factor: let's face it, as good as Arian is - and I'd like a breakdown on this, because I'm going by the ol' eyeball test - Arian does not seem to run well out of shotgun. Arian needs to be "seen" by the defense, only when he has passed them...not before.

I'm just saying the flexibility is there for Keenum unlike any other QB on roster. In the words of Kubiak, "That's a good problem to have."

Along this line I can see us picking up Ben Malena out of TA&M as an UDFA who runs effectively from the shotgun. Sumlin system and all.
Yesterday showed that we can never have enough running backs.


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