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-   -   One post that has everything about Schaub (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101088)

Texans_Chick 07-21-2013 12:36 PM

One post that has everything about Schaub
 
OK, I did this post called, "The Matt Schaub Compendium" to talk about Schaub's 2012 in the context of his entire career.

Today's post over at the new Ultimate Texans location is entitled, "On Matt Schaub, elite quarterbacks, QB rankings, clutch and the ‘Schaubnado’"

The first post was more of a focus on the numbers.

The second post is more putting Schaub in the context of quarterback debate stuff that tends to go on in July when there is no real news.

Concepts like elite, quarterback rankings, and does clutch even exist as a reproducible skill?

If you are of the sort who thinks, "No way the Texans can win the Super Bowl with Schaub," there's a few data points in there that are the equivalent of a hug.

And once again, thanks to all who click on this link and share it on social networks. The more popular my stuff is at the Chronicle while hosted at that location, the more likely the powers that be will continue to let me do my thing.

:swatter:

CloakNNNdagger 07-21-2013 01:31 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Steph, this has to be up there with one of your best efforts. It has covered all aspects of the "elite" story and of the Matt Schaub story while presenting no apparent biases. Thanks for another great read.


This quote seems to reflect one of my main long-standing concerns (everyone here is aware of my more acute concerns regarding his foot) with regard to a QB type such as Schaub:

Quote:

There are some quarterbacks who can win, despite having less than ideal offensive lines, a parade of different offensive players around them, bad running games, bad defenses. And they have done it over many years.
With all of Schaub's known limitations, we have always had to worry about ALL other aspects of the team to be "clicking" almost perfectly for a good outcome. We are forever concentrating on drafting and dealing to try to avoid ANY weaknesses on D or O. When you have that one, strong, consistent QB, it makes it so much more simple to deal with easier-to-"plug-in interchangeable" positions in numbers, doing so with non-elite players, than forever year-to-year being forced to keep your team "together" by seeking a myriad of strong players at virtually every other position.

Again, great article, Steph.

Nawzer 07-21-2013 02:51 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Very well researched article. I still don't like Schaub, but I acknowledge that he was not the sole reason for our dramatic crash at the end of the season. I still think Kubiak is the biggest problem we have on this team. If he doesn't change the offense to allow for more dynamism then I think we're doomed to repeat last year's results. Secondly, the defense has to play better and not give up big plays. Unfortunately, I don't think this defense will be very good as there are critical holes everywhere. I'm still not convinced Cushing will be as effective and we don't have another quality ILB next to him. Our OLBs don't give me any confidence and we have Earl Mitchell as the NT. Of course Ed Reed is a huge question mark and it's looking more and more like that the FO screwed up. Anyway, Schaub can have the best year of his career this year, but it won't matter if the whole team doesn't step up.

the wonger need food 07-21-2013 03:08 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....

Does he make players around him better???

In Schaub's case the answer is a resounding 'NO'. He is a weak link on the offense that has to be compensated for by great players that bail him out. Good NFL QB's have the reverse effect. They make plays off-schedule, improvise and instill confidence into the offensive unit. Schaub accomplishes none of the above and counts on his teammates to make him look adequate.

paycheck71 07-21-2013 03:14 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by the wonger need food (Post 2183745)
Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....

I'm sorry, but LOL!

paycheck71 07-21-2013 03:53 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Just to add to the previous post, I'd like to see all those QB scouting reports with one question and a Y/N checkbox.

I'm not remotely qualified to evaluate QB's, but even I understand that having a subjective, non-measurable "does he make his teammates better?" as the only, or even a major evaluation category is kind of silly.

amazing80 07-21-2013 07:24 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
All the yards in the world won't convince me Schaub is any good, his TD to INT ratio speaks volumes, not to mention the eye test when you watch him. BUT I am a realist and understand he is our BEST option as of now. But we need to figure out our future FAST.

steelbtexan 07-21-2013 07:37 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amazing80 (Post 2183808)
All the yards in the world won't convince me Schaub is any good, his TD to INT ratio speaks volumes, not to mention the eye test when you watch him. BUT I am a realist and understand he is our BEST option as of now. But we need to figure out our future FAST.

^^^^
This

But I'm not sure if Gary's system restricts Schaub's ability to audible etc... causing Schaub to look worse than he is?

I do think Schaub is damaged goods and Gary's playcalling tries to mask Schaub's deficiencies.

Texans_Chick 07-21-2013 07:58 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by the wonger need food (Post 2183745)
Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....

Does he make players around him better???

In Schaub's case the answer is a resounding 'NO'. He is a weak link on the offense that has to be compensated for by great players that bail him out. Good NFL QB's have the reverse effect. They make plays off-schedule, improvise and instill confidence into the offensive unit. Schaub accomplishes none of the above and counts on his teammates to make him look adequate.


OTOH, last year the Texans won 12 regular season games with rotation at Oline. Most teams with such issues at guard, tackle aren't winning many games.
There's exactly one high pick on the Oline, and most stat people believe a big part of low sack stats are on the QB.

Most of the high picks for the Texans have been on the defensive side of the ball. Basically, Scahub over years has run an offense of Andre Johnson, Duane Brown and an island of misfit toys that weren't draft day darlings.

Given they've had an above average offense for most of Schaub's years, I'm thinking a case can be made that he causes others to elevate their games.

You can only do so much bailing by great players. Ask Larry Fitzgerald how hard it is to make a difference if you don't have a guy who can get you the ball. I think he'd kill for a QB as good as Schaub.

In other words, I'm not saying elitey but true elitety rare. Most fanbases are sore with aspects of their QBs game--just normal strengths/weaknesses things and that QB play is so spotlighted in losses.

Texans_Chick 07-21-2013 08:03 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amazing80 (Post 2183808)
All the yards in the world won't convince me Schaub is any good, his TD to INT ratio speaks volumes, not to mention the eye test when you watch him. BUT I am a realist and understand he is our BEST option as of now. But we need to figure out our future FAST.

This last draft not ideal for QBs.

The good news is that if you were developing a QB from scratch, you could do worse than Kubiak as coach.

Look around league at all the teams that trade for promising QBs and fail. I think Schaub is the only modern trade that has resulted in a +4000 yard paaser.

ATXtexanfan 07-21-2013 08:14 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
I still cant believe we extended schaub BEFORE last season.

thunderkyss 07-21-2013 08:24 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Texans_Chick (Post 2183818)
Look around league at all the teams that trade for promising QBs and fail. I think Schaub is the only modern trade that has resulted in a +4000 yard paaser.

again & again & again.

ChampionTexan 07-21-2013 09:00 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Texans_Chick (Post 2183818)
Look around league at all the teams that trade for promising QBs and fail. I think Schaub is the only modern trade that has resulted in a +4000 yard paaser.

Not that it really undermines your argument, but Palmer had over 4,000 (barely) for the Raiders last season.

the wonger need food 07-21-2013 10:00 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Texans_Chick (Post 2183817)
OTOH, last year the Texans won 12 regular season games with rotation at Oline. Most teams with such issues at guard, tackle aren't winning many games.
There's exactly one high pick on the Oline, and most stat people believe a big part of low sack stats are on the QB.

Most of the high picks for the Texans have been on the defensive side of the ball. Basically, Scahub over years has run an offense of Andre Johnson, Duane Brown and an island of misfit toys that weren't draft day darlings.

Given they've had an above average offense for most of Schaub's years, I'm thinking a case can be made that he causes others to elevate their games.

You can only do so much bailing by great players. Ask Larry Fitzgerald how hard it is to make a difference if you don't have a guy who can get you the ball. I think he'd kill for a QB as good as Schaub.

In other words, I'm not saying elitey but true elitety rare. Most fanbases are sore with aspects of their QBs game--just normal strengths/weaknesses things and that QB play is so spotlighted in losses.


Schaub has had plenty of talent around him, misfit or not. Owen Daniels, Arian, Myers, Leach, Briseil, Winston, Dreessen... all very good players that a great QB could elevate(ed) to an even higher level.

Look at Andrew Luck winning a ton of games with a horrible o-line. He made Vick Ballard, TY Hilton, Lavon Brazil and Dwayne Allen borderline All Pros because he made them better.

Players in the Houston offense have to succeed in spite of their QB. Andre Johnson doesn't score TD's because he has to slow down and wait for the defense on every pass. He can't score in the red zone because his QB doesn't have the touch to take advantage of his height/physicality/vertical.

I agree that Schaub is serviceable and isn't going to necessarily lose a lot of games for his team, but he's not gonna win many on his own either. He may be capable of getting hot at the end of the year and help get this team to a Super Bowl, but the stars will need to align perfectly with the defense playing well, few injuries, good game planning and good old fashion luck. However, he is never going to put a team on his back and take them there like the great ones do.

The most concerning thing i saw last year was his shakiness in the pocket, especially toward the end of the season. He looked like David Carr on way too many plays and just withered under pressure instead of trying to make a special play. If a play gets off schedule it is over. If down/distance gets out of whack or there's a penalty the drive is over. Schaub just doesn't possess any "playmaker" skills that good QB's need to be successful when it counts.

Texans_Chick 07-21-2013 10:45 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ATXtexanfan (Post 2183820)
I still cant believe we extended schaub BEFORE last season.

Why? Given QB contracts done after his, the value wasn't terrible. Arguably, it's better than most recent contracts. See e.g. Tony Romo pre-back surgery contract. Even horrible QBs get paid. Just supply demand.

Assume the Texans finished the season exactly the same but didn't work on Schaub's contract until after the season. Would it be less? Nope. Maybe more given that there are 1 not many quality QBs 2 no plan B 3 no plan B that know the Texans offense right now during Andre Johnson's window 4 Recent QB contracts fat, getting fatter.

Not a terrible contract. You're locked in short term but you want that anyway until better draft classes/options emerge. Can't look at the headline numbers and terms of the contract, just the timeframe where you are economically locked in.

Both prospectively and retrospectively I have no issues with the Schaub contract. Just a risk/reward, supply/demand decision.

steelbtexan 07-21-2013 11:06 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Texans_Chick (Post 2183836)
Why? Given QB contracts done after his, the value wasn't terrible. Arguably, it's better than most recent contracts. See e.g. Tony Romo pre-back surgery contract. Even horrible QBs get paid. Just supply demand.

Assume the Texans finished the season exactly the same but didn't work on Schaub's contract until after the season. Would it be less? Nope. Maybe more given that there are 1 not many quality QBs 2 no plan B 3 no plan B that know the Texans offense right now during Andre Johnson's window 4 Recent QB contracts fat, getting fatter.

Not a terrible contract. You're locked in short term but you want that anyway until better draft classes/options emerge. Can't look at the headline numbers and terms of the contract, just the timeframe where you are economically locked in.

Both prospectively and retrospectively I have no issues with the Schaub contract. Just a risk/reward, supply/demand decision.

Disagree

Schaub is damaged goods. IMHO

Because of signing him to that contract they are stuck with him and will be letting 2 yrs of their already closing window slip away.

I dont care about other QB options. They should've let the season play out. You know, like great GM's like Newsome do. If Schaub continues to play late in the season at the putrid levels of last yr then whoever's decision it was to extend Scchaub should be fired. 16 qtrs and 1 offensive TD with HFA on the line in todays NFL = LOL.


BTW, great article.

Texans_Chick 07-21-2013 11:57 PM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by steelbtexan (Post 2183845)
Disagree

Schaub is damaged goods. IMHO

Because of signing him to that contract they are stuck with him and will be letting 2 yrs of their already closing window slip away.

I dont care about other QB options. They should've let the season play out. You know, like great GM's like Newsome do. If Schaub continues to play late in the season at the putrid levels of last yr then whoever's decision it was to extend Scchaub should be fired. 16 qtrs and 1 offensive TD with HFA on the line in todays NFL = LOL.


BTW, great article.

Thank you. Newsome wanted a deal prior to last season. Didn't. Got worse deal.

Yes, Ravens won a SB but Flacco had a terrible regular season. Worse than Schaub's. Maybe the SB win, Caldwell helps grow confidence, but I wouldn't feel good about that contract at all. Flacco is a maddeningly, inconsistent QB to watch. Sometimes beautiful throws, sometime immobile Frankenflacco in pocket, not capable of basic bread and butter passes.

You have to look at alternatives if you are a GM because you live in the real world. Much of league has hot garbage at high price as their QB.

leebigeztx 07-22-2013 12:58 AM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger (Post 2183727)
Steph, this has to be up there with one of your best efforts. It has covered all aspects of the "elite" story and of the Matt Schaub story while presenting no apparent biases. Thanks for another great read.


This quote seems to reflect one of my main long-standing concerns (everyone here is aware of my more acute concerns regarding his foot) with regard to a QB type such as Schaub:



With all of Schaub's known limitations, we have always had to worry about ALL other aspects of the team to be "clicking" almost perfectly for a good outcome. We are forever concentrating on drafting and dealing to try to avoid ANY weaknesses on D or O. When you have that one, strong, consistent QB, it makes it so much more simple to deal with easier-to-"plug-in interchangeable" positions in numbers, doing so with non-elite players, than forever year-to-year being forced to keep your team "together" by seeking a myriad of strong players at virtually every other position.

Again, great article, Steph.

See, this is me. I call into sirius and I've said this a million times. To me, a qb in todays game have to be about to compensate for what the team lacks. A team can't be built with a qb who needs everything humming to win. Just rattle off the last 10 superbowls winning qbs and u will find holes on those teams,but the qb made up for it. I'm with team building,but u can't hide ur qb. There will be 5 plays in a game that are solely made by the qb. I've seen too many times when the 5 plays were not made. So unless the defense turns into the 2000 ravens,the line morphs into the hogs,aj goes back 6 yrs,daniels turns to sharpe,and the other wr turns into aj part 2,I don't think u can win a superbowl with schaub.

Tailgate 07-22-2013 08:44 AM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
While Schaub has never been the "athletic" QB, I can't remember him looking as pudgy or out of shape as he did last season. At one point, I thought he was a new candidate for the BRO.

Not sure if this is accurate or not, or if it would even have to do with anything related... But I am hoping to see a Schaub that hit it hard in the gym this off season, something he was probably unable to last off season.

thunderkyss 07-22-2013 09:10 AM

Re: One post that has everything about Schaub
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leebigeztx (Post 2183863)
See, this is me. I call into sirius and I've said this a million times. To me, a qb in todays game have to be about to compensate for what the team lacks. A team can't be built with a qb who needs everything humming to win. Just rattle off the last 10 superbowls winning qbs and u will find holes on those teams,but the qb made up for it. I'm with team building,but u can't hide ur qb. There will be 5 plays in a game that are solely made by the qb. I've seen too many times when the 5 plays were not made. So unless the defense turns into the 2000 ravens,the line morphs into the hogs,aj goes back 6 yrs,daniels turns to sharpe,and the other wr turns into aj part 2,I don't think u can win a superbowl with schaub.

We won 13 games in 2012.


Are you telling me we had no holes on our team?


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