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SW H-TOWN
04-28-2013, 01:34 PM
I have to say that I am worried with what we are going into the season with as of now at the NT position. IMO Earl Mitchell and our 6th round pick, Chris Jones, are not going to be able to do too good of a job at stopping the run. At least we will have 2 big ILB if Brooks Reed moves inside. If I was Rick Smith I would have drafted Montori Hughes (NT Tennessee-Martin) instead of Sam Montgomery and then drafted Ty Powell (OLB Harding) in the 6th. Can't really see Montgomery doing it in coverage, hope I'm wrong.

On a side note I would have liked to see us pick up Keith Pough (ILB Howard) and Jasper Collins (WR Mount Union).

What do you guys think?

Uncle Rico
04-28-2013, 01:43 PM
I believe that healthy and positive ILB play can hide a subpar NT. You cant have both however as evidenced by last year, we were soft up the middle in both respects. Cush will bring everything back to normal.

I am concerned that an ILB wasnt drafted, Brooks Reed moving to that position isnt an immediate fix IMO, he will still need time to acclimate.

Tailgate
04-28-2013, 01:43 PM
Big picture moment. I think no team is ever complete in this league and every unit will be constantly purged and replenished with new talent. How efficient we are at this will determine what type of organization we are. I think we are pretty much set at WR, OL, and secondary. As long as we stay healthy in the front 7 and we get the most out of our young guys we will be extremely tough to deal with from a defensive perspective.

We still need upgrades at NT, ILB, a replacement for A Smith, OLBs to step forward, a #1 TE and the next QB to lead this team.

But this team is built to win right now, and for the foreseeable future. Good times to be a Texans fan indeed.

V3rm0nt3r
04-28-2013, 02:21 PM
I trust Wade to alter his defense to better utilize the talent he has at the moment. with Jamison back in the fold we now have four solid 3-4 ends who are all capable of stuffing the run while Reed will offer a unique blitzing option from the inside to help cover our inside lineman.

With this secondary, the primary objective for this defense as a whole will be to force passing situations where Wade can send an onslaught of young pass rushers into the backfield. I seriously doubt he will overlook finding systems that use his players' strengths in order to stop the run on early downs and force third and longs. In other words, In Wade I Trust.

Rey
04-28-2013, 02:55 PM
Maybe my memory is just awful, but I don't remember being overly concerned last year with being punished up the middle in the run game.

Nawzer
04-28-2013, 02:56 PM
NT and ILB remain the biggest concern for the team after the draft.

Number19
04-28-2013, 03:06 PM
I trust Wade to alter his defense to better utilize the talent he has at the moment. True, but......while Reed will offer a unique blitzing option from the inside to help cover our inside lineman.
Ideally, you want your NT to demand the C/OG double team. This opens up the blitz lane for the ILB. If either the C or OG can handle the NT one-on-one, this leaves the other to block on the ILB.

Both the Colts and the Titans drafted OG and C. We'll have to wait & see, but I don't see Mitchell and Jones being dominating - adequate, maybe, but Wade will have to perform his magic to cover this hole, again.

Number19
04-28-2013, 03:10 PM
Maybe my memory is just awful, but I don't remember being overly concerned last year with being punished up the middle in the run game.During the regular season this is not so much a concern. It's when you get into the playoff, if you have a weakness it will be exploited. Our goal is to get to the SB and not get knocked out early, again.

Vance87
04-28-2013, 03:13 PM
Maybe my memory is just awful, but I don't remember being overly concerned last year with being punished up the middle in the run game.

It was bad. Especially after Cush went down.

dsorc
04-28-2013, 03:14 PM
I'm not worried about NT at all. We allowed a grand total of 5 rushing touchdowns last year. We were also top 10 in both rush yards per game and yards per rush. And that was with Cushing down for more than half the season.

CretorFrigg
04-28-2013, 03:40 PM
I'm not worried about NT at all. We allowed a grand total of 5 rushing touchdowns last year. We were also top 10 in both rush yards per game and yards per rush. And that was with Cushing down for more than half the season.

Numbers can be deceiving. Remember 2010 when the Texans had the worst defense in the league? Our rush defense wasn't bad, but that's because it was skewed. Why would teams run when they could just throw it around the whole time?

76Texan
04-28-2013, 03:47 PM
David Hunter still has 2 years on his contract and Terrell McClain is signed through 2013.

At least McClain was the #65 pick of the Panthers and Wade likes Hunter enough to activate him to the 53-man roster during the season.

Perhaps Wade saw something there that he likes.
And who knows, the Texans can still add a vet if they feel like it.
Maybe they'll bring back Cody at veteran minimum.

WolverineFan
04-28-2013, 03:49 PM
Ideally, you want your NT to demand the C/OG double team. This opens up the blitz lane for the ILB. If either the C or OG can handle the NT one-on-one, this leaves the other to block on the ILB.

Wade runs a one-gap system. His lineman do not sit and hold up blocks. They shoot gaps and penetrate. With this style they can disrupt the interior of the line and the LB's can clean up. Wade utilizes a lot of different blitzes to get his LB's in unblocked.

Big Lou
04-28-2013, 03:58 PM
We'll sign a FA.

We can wait until teams cut someone.

I think Seymour may still be out there....

76Texan
04-28-2013, 03:58 PM
Wade runs a one-gap system. His lineman do not sit and hold up blocks. They shoot gaps and penetrate. With this style they can disrupt the interior of the line and the LB's can clean up. Wade utilizes a lot of different blitzes to get his LB's in unblocked.

It doesn't matter how Wade uses his NT; when the opponent decide to double-team or combo-block the NT, they still do it.

Brandon420tx
04-28-2013, 04:05 PM
I'm not worried about NT or ILB Those are the positions that come off the field or shift the most in wades defense anyway.

mussop
04-28-2013, 04:18 PM
We add nothing but a six round pick to the trash we have now and only bring in one UFA. There has to be a plan to bring in a FA. Hampton, Seymour, someone is coming.

It won't do any good to have a pass rush if everyone can just run it down our throats all day. Not to me to mention how much it will wear down out ILB's if they don't have someone upfront to keep them clean.

Lucky
04-28-2013, 04:58 PM
It was bad. Especially after Cush went down.
Really? The defense finished in top 10 in both yards allowed and yards per rush. By that criteria, most of the league has a bad run defense.

Corrosion
04-28-2013, 05:04 PM
Ive heard they plan to move Crick inside ... The biggest question I have is depth at DE if they do.

Makes me wonder where they play Montgomery - DE or OLB.

Right now they have Watt , Ninja and Crick listed as DE's on the roster.

Only Mitchell & 6th round rookie Chris Jones at DT (outside of guy's coming back from injury or PS guy's)

Braman , Reed and Mercilus at OLB.

Trevardo Williams will most certianly be an OLB .... Montgomery on the other hand , I cant pin down their plans for. He's a little bigger and could probably play either spot.


It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out .... :kitten:


Really? The defense finished in top 10 in both yards allowed and yards per rush. By that criteria, most of the league has a bad run defense.

#7 in both Ypg and Ypa.


The Pass defense was #1 in completion percentage #7 in Ypa and #17 in Ypg.

Vance87
04-28-2013, 05:06 PM
Really? The defense finished in top 10 in both yards allowed and yards per rush. By that criteria, most of the league has a bad run defense.

Like someone else said, teams started to pass the ball on us a great deal in the second half of the season, skewing our run defense stats. I just remember no-name RBs running right up the middle on us late in the season.

infantrycak
04-28-2013, 05:12 PM
Really? The defense finished in top 10 in both yards allowed and yards per rush. By that criteria, most of the league has a bad run defense.

Let's throw in also that we were tied with Denver for the least number of rushing TD's allowed so tied for 1st.

Texn4life
04-28-2013, 05:14 PM
We will sign another NT and ILB before training camp. I'm not worried. The FO is not done shaping this roster.

The Pencil Neck
04-28-2013, 05:32 PM
Hell, Cody's still out there. If his back is up to it, he could still be an option.

Number19
04-28-2013, 05:34 PM
Really? The defense finished in top 10 in both yards allowed and yards per rush. By that criteria, most of the league has a bad run defense.This has been brought up time and again; but there does seem to be this perception.

We were strong at stopping the run on the outside and we got good support from Quin. But we did get beat handily by N.E.; who got 122 yards from 24 rushing attempts and a 5.1 average.

Like I mentioned before, it's not so much the regular season - we are a playoff caliber team. It's getting over that next hump and beating the elite teams.

We are weak up the middle - NT, ILB and SS. We didn't adequately address any of these needs in the draft. That's OK, we really strengthened ourselves everywhere else and we're going to be better this year. We'll have to see how Wade addresses the middle this coming season. Cush, when he's back 100%, will make a big difference. And we'll have to see if Reed moves inside.

I'm ready for football.

SW H-TOWN
04-28-2013, 05:56 PM
I'm not worried about NT at all. We allowed a grand total of 5 rushing touchdowns last year. We were also top 10 in both rush yards per game and yards per rush. And that was with Cushing down for more than half the season.

Good point but I don't think that Cody was one of the main reasons that we finished with such good numbers. My point is that we had a chance to get a guy who can shoot a gap and command a double team but we drafted Sam Montgomery to play on the strongside who IMO will not be able to hold up in his coverage responsibilities. I'm less concerned with where we were last year in rush yards and more concerned with getting better. Personally I think that we would have improved more as a team drafting Montori Hughes instead of Sam Montgomery. I would have not been against drafting Chris Jones too so we could move Earl Mitchell to DE if we decide to part ways with Antonio Smith in order to free up cap space.

mussop
04-28-2013, 06:59 PM
For you stat guys That think we are good against the run. Well we aren't bad but when you consider 68% of Opposing teams runs were between the two guards against our defense, it shows that other teams see our middle as a weakness.

Maybe this is why Phillips defenses seem to start off strong but tend to wear down over time. When teams pound you up the middle enough and your NT isn't capable of keeping the ILB's clean, isn't it logical to think they (ILB's) will start to break down?

Maybe That's why our ILB's couldn't stay healthy last year. I know Cushing went down with a cheap shop. I'm talking about all the other injuries our ILB's had. And don't forget Cody's back as well.

Playoffs
04-28-2013, 07:17 PM
Rick Smith -- Kubiak too but wasn't allowed to choose same -- named 6'2", 302 lbs. 2012 MAC Defensive Player of the Year NT Chris Jones as their sleeper lower round pick to surprise. Both really like the young man.

thunderkyss
04-28-2013, 07:33 PM
Maybe my memory is just awful, but I don't remember being overly concerned last year with being punished up the middle in the run game.


We were 7th against the run. 9th in points allowed.

The run game only hurt us twice. Against New England in the regular season & against the Colts @ Indy. Even All day had a rough day going up the middle against us.

True, the main reason our run defense looks so good on paper, was that we played with the lead most of the time. But our defense overall (including the run D) helped us get there.

We don't run a traditional 3-4, our NT is no more a NT than Jj Watt is a 3-4 DE. Seth Payne would have killed in this defense.

thunderkyss
04-28-2013, 07:40 PM
For you stat guys That think we are good against the run. Well we aren't bad but when you consider 68% of Opposing teams runs were between the two guards against our defense, it shows that other teams see our middle as a weakness.


But they got nothing. It doesn't matter that they perceive a weakness up the middle if they aren't getting any yards & they aren't scoring any TDs.

68% means they thought their strength was up the middle. 7th in yards allowed means that it wasn't.

infantrycak
04-28-2013, 07:46 PM
We were 7th against the run. 9th in points allowed.

We were tied for #1 in points allowed by rushing.

deucetx
04-28-2013, 08:24 PM
Last year our running defense was strong. I believe someone used the Patriots playoff game as an example. The thing with that example is the same thing folks have been saying for a while. Wade pulls his NT's out quite a lot against spread teams. In fact, our NT's didn't even start that game which tells you Wade's mindset against spreads. Generally it is Smith and Watt more inside and the OLB's on the edges with a ILB and safety pulled up. NT on the sideline. We started that game with 3 safeties (and may Keo never see the field again).

Most of the season Mitchell played more than Cody so what is there really to base concern about? Were we worried about the run defense last year? No. It was folks passing the ball on us like crazy. When some runs opened up for the opposition it was against the spread which once again, the NT is generally not on the field. So if there any concerns it would be with Wade's philosophy and how he deals with the spread. But then again that is why we drafted Swearinger so the issue wasn't actually ignored by the FO or coaching staff.

Oh and Corrosion you are forgetting one more DE probably because he spent most of the year hurt but Jamison is still on roster (unless I missed something) and signed an extension in September so they have depth there if Crick bounces around like last year.

Vance87
04-28-2013, 08:35 PM
Once again, teams started throwing on us so much late in the year it skewed the run stats. Week 3 Simms pointed out that we are undersized between the tackles but you can't run on us outside. I'd say all year that was a weakness. It didn't start becoming more apparent until Cushing went out.

Insideop
04-28-2013, 08:44 PM
We will sign another NT and ILB before training camp. I'm not worried. The FO is not done shaping this roster.

I'm not so sure about this. Maybe they sign the ILB but I don't think he will be anymore than a Brady James type who will come in and provide a little depth. The big worry should be the injury bug. If Cush goes down again we probably are back to the early exit in the Playoffs at best. If Sharpton can't stay healthy, and I don't see any proof that he will, we could get by with Dobbins or Reed in there.

As for the NT situation, right now they have Mitchell, Terrell McClain, David Hunter, and now Chris Jones. All of them are in the 300 lb range. Wade has had a number of chances to draft a bigger "run stuffing" NT and he's passed on all of them. So, I think the reality of the situation is, at least for this defense, that Wade prefers the lighter, quicker, penetrating NT with a "high motor" over the bigger "run stuffing" NT. I don't see this changing in the near future. My guess is, this season, that Mitchell will start and McClain will rotate with him until either Hunter or Jones are ready. Hunter could end up on the PS if he needs more seasoning and Jones may end up there also for awhile. I know they like Hunter and Jones a lot. Not sure what they think of McClain long term. He may be just a stop gap.

PapaL
04-28-2013, 08:59 PM
For you stat guys That think we are good against the run. Well we aren't bad but when you consider 68% of Opposing teams runs were between the two guards against our defense, it shows that other teams see our middle as a weakness.


Where else would you attack a 3-4 Defense? Sure as hell don't run a sweep, you run up the middle. More so when Cush went down.

infantrycak
04-28-2013, 09:02 PM
Once again, teams started throwing on us so much late in the year it skewed the run stats. Week 3 Simms pointed out that we are undersized between the tackles but you can't run on us outside. I'd say all year that was a weakness. It didn't start becoming more apparent until Cushing went out.

People keep saying this like Cushing played most of the year. He went out in game 5.

Seth Payne would have killed in this defense.

Several folks behind the scenes have talked about Payne in his prime would have been a beast if he was playing for us now.

Rey
04-28-2013, 09:15 PM
We were 7th against the run. 9th in points allowed.

The run game only hurt us twice. Against New England in the regular season & against the Colts @ Indy. Even All day had a rough day going up the middle against us.

True, the main reason our run defense looks so good on paper, was that we played with the lead most of the time. But our defense overall (including the run D) helped us get there.

We don't run a traditional 3-4, our NT is no more a NT than Jj Watt is a 3-4 DE. Seth Payne would have killed in this defense.


Does anyone have any averages?

Just curious.

Corrosion
04-28-2013, 09:44 PM
Once again, teams started throwing on us so much late in the year it skewed the run stats. Week 3 Simms pointed out that we are undersized between the tackles but you can't run on us outside. I'd say all year that was a weakness. It didn't start becoming more apparent until Cushing went out.

Then how does that affect your view on the pass defense stats .... They were #1 in completion percentage at 53%.

mussop
04-28-2013, 10:27 PM
But they got nothing. It doesn't matter that they perceive a weakness up the middle if they aren't getting any yards & they aren't scoring any TDs.

68% means they thought their strength was up the middle. 7th in yards allowed means that it wasn't.

If you say so. Interpret the stats however you want. I'm telling you this, if we go into the season with what we have now we are in trouble. By the middle of the season our ILB's will be getting wore out. Don't be surprised if they become a mash unit once again.

Corrosion
04-28-2013, 10:37 PM
But they got nothing. It doesn't matter that they perceive a weakness up the middle if they aren't getting any yards & they aren't scoring any TDs.

68% means they thought their strength was up the middle. 7th in yards allowed means that it wasn't.

I think you really have to examine those stats subjectively - Early in the season the Texans were ahead more often than not and teams were forced to pass.

Later in the season when the offense struggled , teams were able to run more effectively.

They were #1 or #2 during that first 12 games ... then fell to #7 after those last 4.

This tells me that as the offense goes , so goes the defense.

If you say so. Interpret the stats however you want. I'm telling you this, if we go into the season with what we have now we are in trouble. By the middle of the season our ILB's will be getting wore out. Don't be surprised if they become a mash unit once again.

I think this is a subject worth exploring.

Generally in the 3-4 keping the LBers clean to make plays is important.

They got so much more production out of the front 3 than they did their LBers .... especially after Cushing went down that I wonder if this wasnt by design - putting Watt and Ninja in position to capitalize on mismatches at the expense of the LBers not named Cushing.

Vance87
04-29-2013, 12:44 AM
Then how does that affect your view on the pass defense stats .... They were #1 in completion percentage at 53%.

Weird, I guess you missed the Packers game, the second Jax game, the Detroit game, both Patriots games and the last Indy game.

Vance87
04-29-2013, 12:45 AM
People keep saying this like Cushing played most of the year. He went out in game 5.

Who are these people? Not me. You don't think I know when Cushing went down?

Corrosion
04-29-2013, 01:01 AM
Weird, I guess you missed the Packers game, the second Jax game, the Detroit game, both Patriots games and the last Indy game.

They played sub packages on more than 50% of their defensive snaps last season ... Teams were in 2nd / 3rd and long an awful lot. THose are passing situations.

It seemed like (to me at least) that every time a team made a big play , it was in a 3rd and long situation.


The Pats & Packers .... they just whooped that ass from start to finish. :kubepalm:

thunderkyss
04-29-2013, 09:31 AM
I think you really have to examine those stats subjectively - Early in the season the Texans were ahead more often than not and teams were forced to pass.

Later in the season when the offense struggled , teams were able to run more effectively.

They were #1 or #2 during that first 12 games ... then fell to #7 after those last 4.

This tells me that as the offense goes , so goes the defense.


I completely understand & agree. However, I think it's taken into consideration when designing our defense. If the plan is to efficiently outscore the opponent, why invest the time & effort to find a freak of an athlete that doesn't grow on trees?

It's easier to find that other guy who'll split that gap & get in the backfield, drawing the attention of those big uglies.


I think this is a subject worth exploring.

Generally in the 3-4 keping the LBers clean to make plays is important.

They got so much more production out of the front 3 than they did their LBers .... especially after Cushing went down that I wonder if this wasnt by design - putting Watt and Ninja in position to capitalize on mismatches at the expense of the LBers not named Cushing.

Generally.... & Wade hasn't done the General thing. The ILBs only blitz when we can't generate the pass rush from the outside. He runs it very much like a 4-3.

Against the run, we consistently see everybody but Bradie James in the backfield & I don't think that has anything to do with what our NT is, or is not, doing.

Uncle Rico
04-29-2013, 10:47 PM
Unless the piss poor LB's are crashing into the OL at the point of attack I dont see how the good numbers by the line corrolate with a 'design' or intent by the coaches. Ninja and Swatt just kicked peoples asses last year, plain and simple.

Rey
04-29-2013, 11:53 PM
The texans need to not be as reactionary this year. You got all these aggressive players so don't take them out of their element and/or try to have them play in a way that's not them.

Coaches need to be aggressive in their playcallimg and personnel decisions.

House of Pain
04-30-2013, 02:12 PM
This thread brought up the issue of Wade's defenses putting the ILBs in the line of fire with the O lineman, thus leading to more injuries at LB. I wonder if there is any way to look at Wade's past teams, and see if they actually had more injuries to the ILB core, or if this is just conjecture?

SW H-TOWN
05-01-2013, 12:09 PM
To me it's pretty simple. We need a NT who can shoot a gap and also command a double team. Montori Hughes would have been a great option but we opted for a guy, Sam Montgomery, who IMO do not fit our system. We want to play him at strongside linebacker and I think that he will be a serious liability in coverage. THE TYPE THAT TOM BRADY EXPLOITS ALL DAY LONG. He is a 4-3 end.

The Pencil Neck
05-01-2013, 12:19 PM
To me it's pretty simple. We need a NT who can shoot a gap and also command a double team. Montori Hughes would have been a great option but we opted for a guy, Sam Montgomery, who IMO do not fit our system. We want to play him at strongside linebacker and I think that he will be a serious liability in coverage. THE TYPE THAT TOM BRADY EXPLOITS ALL DAY LONG. He is a 4-3 end.

So you'd have been happy if we wasted our 3rd round pick on a guy drafted in the 5th round? Can you say reach?

Chris Jones was drafted instead of Montori Hughes and you get a guy that doesn't have the character questions that Montori Hughes has.

Rey
05-01-2013, 12:24 PM
I don't get the Montori Hughes love...

I mean...Maybe he develops into a nice player, but he's not all that impressive on film. He's just big.

Jones actually looks impressive on film.

Blake
05-01-2013, 12:37 PM
At least McClain was the #65 pick of the Panthers

Amobi Okoye was the 10th pick of the draft...

:kubepalm:

76Texan
05-01-2013, 12:44 PM
Amobi Okoye was the 10th pick of the draft...

:kubepalm:

Hey, I'm looking at McClain as a back-up, which is the norm for a third-rounder.
On top of that McClain is cheap.
He only costs 555K, less than Jared Crick or any fourth rounder we sign this year.
He's like $220K cheaper than Jamison.

Blake
05-01-2013, 12:50 PM
Hey, I'm looking at McClain as a back-up, which is the norm for a third-rounder.
On top of that McClain is cheap.
He only costs 555K, less than Jared Crick or any fourth rounder we sign this year.
He's like $220K cheaper than Jamison.

Yeah I was just taking a cheap shot at Okoye. You think the Texans will carry 3 D tackles?

76Texan
05-01-2013, 12:54 PM
Yeah I was just taking a cheap shot at Okoye. You think the Texans will carry 3 D tackles?

The line is kinda of blurry with Wade on how he uses the interior guy.
All I know is I think I agree with those who say we will carry at least 6 interior D-linemen, with at least one on the PS.

76Texan
05-01-2013, 01:07 PM
Any news on Tim Jamison's ACL?
I don't think I've heard a blip on that end.

CloakNNNdagger
05-01-2013, 05:11 PM
Any news on Tim Jamison's ACL?
I don't think I've heard a blip on that end.

I wish it WERE an ACL. It was an Achilles though. No word I've seen. But I would be skeptical as to how much production he would show before the latter part of the season.........and would have to worry about the level of production beyond that. I don't remember reports of him undergoing surgery for it. I hope that they did not opt for nonoperative rehab.....the re-rupture rate and rate of successful recovery is not acceptable

ObsiWan
05-01-2013, 07:11 PM
I wish it WERE an ACL. It was an Achilles though. No word I've seen. But I would be skeptical as to how much production he would show before the latter part of the season.........and would have to worry about the level of production beyond that. I don't remember reports of him undergoing surgery for it. I hope that they did not opt for nonoperative rehab.....the re-rupture rate and rate of successful recovery is not acceptable

Soooo... are you saying it's time to
:panic:

CloakNNNdagger
05-02-2013, 10:11 PM
Soooo... are you saying it's time to
:panic:

Panic may not be the term I'd use. But I would be looking at ANY significant contribution to this season to be somewhat of a pleasant surprise, unless he suffered a very "minor" tear. Although this would not make sense since he was placed on IR as soon as mid October of last season.

SW H-TOWN
05-03-2013, 12:07 AM
So you'd have been happy if we wasted our 3rd round pick on a guy drafted in the 5th round? Can you say reach?

Chris Jones was drafted instead of Montori Hughes and you get a guy that doesn't have the character questions that Montori Hughes has.

I would have drafted both Jones and Hughes and put Jones on the practice squad until Antonio Smith is not with the team. I think Smith will be a cap casualty in a year or two. Hughes has character concerns but at least he is not a lazy guy who does not put in the time in the weight room and gets called out buy the coaches. Montgomery was on a list put up by LSU coaches saying that the listed players regularly miss workouts, always have an excuse, and only care about themselves. On top of that he is a 4-3 END, NOT A STRONGSIDE LINEBACKER. He will not be able to hold up in coverage. Tom Brady and his tight ends would exploit him to no end. Here is a scouting report from nfl.com so you can see what Hughes brings to the table. He would not have been a reach in the 3rd round IMO. Montori Hughes and is more talented than Jones and Hughes has the potential to command a double team, something that any team needs.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/montori-hughes?id=2539944

SW H-TOWN
05-03-2013, 12:26 AM
I don't get the Montori Hughes love...

I mean...Maybe he develops into a nice player, but he's not all that impressive on film. He's just big.

Jones actually looks impressive on film.

He is quick of the snap for a guy who weighs 330. Not as quick as Sylvester Williams but quick for a NT. I think he would have a good compliment to Mitchell. He would have also rarely been double teamed due to teams focusing on Watt. He is huge and can shoot a gap. I think he would have helped us in the run game. He was getting double teamed a lot in the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYYZmz-TADc

The Pencil Neck
05-03-2013, 01:31 AM
I would have drafted both Jones and Hughes and put Jones on the practice squad until Antonio Smith is not with the team. I think Smith will be a cap casualty in a year or two. Hughes has character concerns but at least he is not a lazy guy who does not put in the time in the weight room and gets called out buy the coaches. Montgomery was on a list put up by LSU coaches saying that the listed players regularly miss workouts, always have an excuse, and only care about themselves.

He missed 1 workout. ONE.

On top of that he is a 4-3 END, NOT A STRONGSIDE LINEBACKER. He will not be able to hold up in coverage. Tom Brady and his tight ends would exploit him to no end.

He won't be asked to hold up in coverage. You think you know how to use Montgomery better than Wade and Herring do? Really? His job is to jam the hell out of the TE, to read run or pass and then stuff the run or get after the QB. He might be asked to play some zone but coverage is not his purpose.

Here is a scouting report from nfl.com so you can see what Hughes brings to the table. He would not have been a reach in the 3rd round IMO. Montori Hughes and is more talented than Jones and Hughes has the potential to command a double team, something that any team needs.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/montori-hughes?id=2539944

Montori Hughes started off at the University of Tennessee and was suspended multiple times and ultimately dismissed.

Link (http://www.local8now.com/news/headlines/123539034.html)

And something from your own link:

He needed a prep school detour for academic issues, which dogged him during his time in Tennessee as well before his dismissal from that program. Teams will need to see him prove his work ethic...


Montori Hughes is a lazier and much less athletic version of Travis Johnson. He's got danger flags all over him.

Sam Montgomery is a high motor player. The games he "took off" were games where LSU won by more than 30 points. He played his best in the higher pressure games.

Rey
05-03-2013, 08:14 AM
He is quick of the snap for a guy who weighs 330. Not as quick as Sylvester Williams but quick for a NT. I think he would have a good compliment to Mitchell. He would have also rarely been double teamed due to teams focusing on Watt. He is huge and can shoot a gap. I think he would have helped us in the run game. He was getting double teamed a lot in the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYYZmz-TADc

I've watched Hughes and I wasn't impressed. He does nome nice things, but I think he's going to struggle big time in the NFL because his technique is bad and he doesn't play very strong.

I don't see any exceptional quickness either.

I would expect a guy like that to dominate the competition he was going against...especially at that position. I didn't see it. He fit right in with those guys.

We can agree to disagree on Hughes, no biggie.

SW H-TOWN
05-03-2013, 10:42 AM
Hopefully he sucks, Colts drafted him.

badboy
05-03-2013, 11:59 AM
I think Texans are gambling. They know what game results were with what they had.Add a hopeful 16 games from Cushing & expect Mitchell to continue 2013 how he ended 2012. Perhaps one of the back up NTs will shine or even the rookie. I was hopeful an ILB would have been taken in lower rounds. I'm going to watch Louis Nix Notre Dame nose and Andrew Jackson Western Kentucky LB and San Jose State QB David Fales this season.

thunderkyss
05-03-2013, 06:58 PM
I would have drafted both Jones and Hughes and put Jones on the practice squad until Antonio Smith is not with the team. I think Smith will be a cap casualty in a year or two.

Just to help me get my terminology straight.

If we release Antonio Smith before the start of the 2013 season, he will be considered a cap casualty. If he signs a contract somewhere else, $3M+, we might get a compensatory pick for him.

If we do not resign Antonio after the 2013 season, would we consider him a cap casualty?

Mario, Barwin, Dressen, Briesel, & Pollard weren't "cap casualties because they weren't cut or released. They were free agents we didn't sign.

Demeco (even though he was traded), Winston, Jacoby, & Walter were all cap casualties, since they were under contract & released (or traded) to provide cap relief.

Is that how y'all see it?

76Texan
05-03-2013, 07:11 PM
Well, first of all, the Texans has some $2.4M cap rollover from last year, so they had at least that much money to spend last year if they chose to do so.

As far as the players, we have to consider their individual case, and also add to it the overall impact of all the different moves during the off-season.

76Texan
05-03-2013, 07:20 PM
Mario was definitely a cap casualty.
There was no way that the Texans can retain him, unless they restructured a whole bunch of contracts and push the deficit onto later years.
Or they would have to cut other guys with high cap space (Antonio for example).

Dreessen's new contract with the Broncos only took up $1.833M in cap space last year, so they could have resigned him if they wanted to (along the way, they probably cut a receiver who earned little just to make room on the roster, or any player really, from Barrett Rudd to Alan Ball to Shilo Keo - they may make little like in the $400-600K range; minimum guys.)

They would still be about a Mil under the cap.

If they feel comfortable without Dreessen, they can opt not to resign him so that they have the room to sign another player. In this case, it would be a cap relief.
You release some money at one position in order to sign another player at a different position.

The Pencil Neck
05-03-2013, 07:26 PM
Dreessen's new contract with the Broncos only took up $1.833M in cap space last year, so they could have resigned him if they wanted to (along the way, they probably cut a receiver who earned little just to make room on the roster, or any player really, from Barrett Rudd to Alan Ball to Shilo Keo - they may make little like in the $400-600K range; minimum guys.)

Just a note but there's more to it than money.

Dreessen is from Colorado. I think he gave the Broncos an extra home-town discount in order to play with Manning.

76Texan
05-03-2013, 07:41 PM
Regardless, the Texans had enough cap space to resign Dreeseen if they wanted to, even if they had to pay more than the Broncos.

Now onto Winston's case.
Ryan Harris probably earned between $600-800K last year, let's say $700K.
That and the $2.4M remaining cap space totaled to some $3.1M

Winston would have counted some $4.5M, which the Texans didn't have.
In order to keep him, they would have to restructure one contract, which is doable, without hurting too much long term.
But releasing Winston helped save the cap space that they can roll over to this year.

We can look at Winston as both cap casualty and cap relief, both short term and long term.

amazing80
05-03-2013, 07:44 PM
I have to say that I am worried with what we are going into the season with as of now at the NT position. IMO Earl Mitchell and our 6th round pick, Chris Jones, are not going to be able to do too good of a job at stopping the run. At least we will have 2 big ILB if Brooks Reed moves inside. If I was Rick Smith I would have drafted Montori Hughes (NT Tennessee-Martin) instead of Sam Montgomery and then drafted Ty Powell (OLB Harding) in the 6th. Can't really see Montgomery doing it in coverage, hope I'm wrong.

On a side note I would have liked to see us pick up Keith Pough (ILB Howard) and Jasper Collins (WR Mount Union).

What do you guys think?

Im not worried, our 3rd S, 2nd ILB and 3rd CB got more snaps than our NT position last season. You would be surprised how little we have a true NT on the field. Safety is much more of a concern and it was addressed.

76Texan
05-03-2013, 07:55 PM
Resigning Dreessen was very doable; however, it doesn't make very good sense when you have Graham waiting in the wing.

He cost less than $700K last year, and not much more this year.
It was just time for Dreessen to part way with the Texans.

WolverineFan
05-03-2013, 07:58 PM
Im not worried, our 3rd S, 2nd ILB and 3rd CB got more snaps than our NT position last season. You would be surprised how little we have a true NT on the field. Safety is much more of a concern and it was addressed.

Totally agree. I don't see what the fuss is about really. I assume it's just because we don't have a 330 lb guy in the middle. Mitchell played well last year and Cushing will be back this year. That alone improves the rush defense.

The real issues were Safety play and the non-Watt pass rush. And that's what we addressed in the draft.

76Texan
05-03-2013, 07:59 PM
Mike Brisiel signed a 5-yr contract worths $20M, or $4M per.

It didn't matter how friendly the cap space can be worked out for 2012; you just don't want to put that much on your credit card.

It doesn't matter what you want to call it; it wasn't doable.
Period.

infantrycak
05-03-2013, 08:06 PM
Just to help me get my terminology straight.

If we release Antonio Smith before the start of the 2013 season, he will be considered a cap casualty. If he signs a contract somewhere else, $3M+, we might get a compensatory pick for him.

OK if you want to get your terminology straight never mix into any conversation ever again the terms cap casualty and compensatory picks.

Compensatory picks are determined solely on free agents, i.e. players whose contracts expire according to their terms rather than are waived/cut.

Cap casualty is a meaningless term as far as the league is concerned and basically is reserved for fan conjecture on why the team cut/waived someone or didn't offer more to re-sign them.

drs23
05-03-2013, 08:07 PM
Resigning Brisiel was very doable; however, it doesn't make very good sense when you have Graham waiting in the wing.

He cost less than $700K last year, and not much more this year.
It was just time for Dreessen to part way with the Texans.

edit

76Texan
05-03-2013, 08:40 PM
edit

Haha, thanks for catching it!

It wasn't a grammatical error, just a name mix-up when you're talking about too many guys.

I changed it!

thunderkyss
05-03-2013, 09:15 PM
Cap casualty is a meaningless term as far as the league is concerned and basically is reserved for fan conjecture on why the team cut/waived someone or didn't offer more to re-sign them.

So you would call...... well not you since you aren't prone to conjecture, but you would understand a "cap casualty" to refer to a FA a team elected not to resign, given the proper context?

Corrosion
05-04-2013, 05:11 AM
So you would call...... well not you since you aren't prone to conjecture, but you would understand a "cap casualty" to refer to a FA a team elected not to resign, given the proper context?

I would reserve the term "cap casualty" for a player cut ... Like Winston last season.

SW H-TOWN
05-04-2013, 12:54 PM
He missed 1 workout. ONE.

So Les Miles put him on blast for missing one workout, no.

He won't be asked to hold up in coverage. You think you know how to use Montgomery better than Wade and Herring do? Really? His job is to jam the hell out of the TE, to read run or pass and then stuff the run or get after the QB. He might be asked to play some zone but coverage is not his purpose.

IMO good teams, like the Patriots, will find a way to exploit him.


Montori Hughes started off at the University of Tennessee and was suspended multiple times and ultimately dismissed.

Link (http://www.local8now.com/news/headlines/123539034.html)

And something from your own link:


Montori Hughes is a lazier and much less athletic version of Travis Johnson. He's got danger flags all over him.

Sam Montgomery is a high motor player. The games he "took off" were games where LSU won by more than 30 points. He played his best in the higher pressure games.


Would have liked to see us draft a player who does not take off large chunks of games, important or not. Hopefully he can turn into a high motor player who goes all out on every play but I doubt it. I think that this is something that he has done for a while now and these types of habits are hard to break. Difficult to go from taking games off, something he has probably done since high school, and turn into a player who gives effort on every play.

I know about Montori Hughes. He also has work ethic issues but he does not take games off. I think he would have been a better pick because he can shoot a gap and has shown the ability to command a double team, something that any team needs. Sam Montgomery does not fit our system. He is not athletic enough to play outside in a 3-4. He is a 4-3 end. Honestly I am tired of going back and forth on this issue so lets just agree to disagree. We will see in time how both players develop. Hopefully I am wrong and Sam Montgomery develops into a pass rushing demon who can cover half as good as Connor Barwin or Brooks Reed.

The Pencil Neck
05-04-2013, 01:34 PM
Les Miles didn't put him on blast.

A strength and conditioning coach posted that sign because he missed a class. (http://deadspin.com/5971949/heres-the-bitchy-sign-an-lsu-strength-and-conditioning-coach-used-to-embarrass-motivate-his-players) "A" as in "one".

And your whole point about him being a guy, like Mario, who likes to take plays off is bull. He's a high-motor guy. Here's a quote from one of your sources for Montori Hughes:

NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/sam-montgomery?id=2540149)

Montgomery has some limitations as a pass rusher, but is a high motor player who holds his ground well against the run and constantly making tackles in pursuit. He figures to go on the second day of the NFL draft, projecting to a second or early third round pick


Montgomery doesn't have an eighth of the character concerns that Montori Hughes has. Montori Hughes was:
1) Suspended for a game because of academic issues
2) Suspended again, from what I can tell, for unspecified reasons.
3) Involved in a brawl in a bar that left a police officer injured but he was not charged.
4) Involved in an incident in the dorm rooms of his college.
5) Kicked off the team by his coach.
6) Has a questionable motor.

Number19
05-05-2013, 07:28 PM
Totally agree. I don't see what the fuss is about really. I assume it's just because we don't have a 330 lb guy in the middle. Mitchell played well last year and Cushing will be back this year. That alone improves the rush defense.

The real issues were Safety play and the non-Watt pass rush. And that's what we addressed in the draft.What the fuss is about is advancing in the playoffs and getting to the Super Bowl.

Offensively, you attack sub-defenses by going into a hurry-up offense and not giving your opponent time to substitute, creating mis-matches. We have to be able to defeat elite teams by staying in our base defense much more and not depending on the sub-defenses.

deucetx
05-05-2013, 10:15 PM
What the fuss is about is advancing in the playoffs and getting to the Super Bowl.

Offensively, you attack sub-defenses by going into a hurry-up offense and not giving your opponent time to substitute, creating mis-matches. We have to be able to defeat elite teams by staying in our base defense much more and not depending on the sub-defenses.

Actually, offenses run a hurry up to catch you in your BASE defense to create the mismatches, not your sub. This is a passing league so what do you think they want to pass the ball against more, your base or your sub package? Obviously the answer is your base defense.

Let's also be real. There is one elite team in the AFC we have not proven ourselves against and that is the Patriots. You do not beat them in your base defense because they run a spread and distribute to speed backs that are easily going to beat your linebackers. How did the Ravens beat them? It sure wasn't with their NT's on the field. They got about half of the defensive snaps the entire game.

In other words, the NT is barely a contributor against such teams unless you have a top tier guy and they don't grow on trees.

Rey
05-05-2013, 10:19 PM
Montori Hughes wasn't even impressive on film. I don't get it.

Rey
05-05-2013, 10:30 PM
Actually, offenses run a hurry up to catch you in your BASE defense to create the mismatches, not your sub. This is a passing league so what do you think they want to pass the ball against more, your base or your sub package? Obviously the answer is your base defense.

Let's also be real. There is one elite team in the AFC we have not proven ourselves against and that is the Patriots. You do not beat them in your base defense because they run a spread and distribute to speed backs that are easily going to beat your linebackers. How did the Ravens beat them? It sure wasn't with their NT's on the field. They got about half of the defensive snaps the entire game.

In other words, the NT is barely a contributor against such teams.

I agree with your overall point.

Against the patriots you probably won't start off in your base defense. Maybe some variation of a 4-2-5 with your olb's down, no NT, 2 MLB's, and the third safety in the game.

Safety was a huge priority for this team and I think even that 4th safety spot is going to be is going to be important. I'm hoping pleasant has gotten more comfortable and can play special teams.

But yeah...the NT and the 2nd ILB are both part time players who may or may not even technically start a game.

Insideop
05-06-2013, 11:57 AM
Actually, offenses run a hurry up to catch you in your BASE defense to create the mismatches, not your sub. This is a passing league so what do you think they want to pass the ball against more, your base or your sub package? Obviously the answer is your base defense.

Let's also be real. There is one elite team in the AFC we have not proven ourselves against and that is the Patriots. You do not beat them in your base defense because they run a spread and distribute to speed backs that are easily going to beat your linebackers. How did the Ravens beat them? It sure wasn't with their NT's on the field. They got about half of the defensive snaps the entire game.

In other words, the NT is barely a contributor against such teams unless you have a top tier guy and they don't grow on trees.

How often was Ngata on the field? I'd say he's a "top tier" NT. Even if he's lost a step over the years I can't imagine him being off the field for too long. I just think, and I'm sure others on this MB do too, that if the Texans had a NT that size (6'4" 330 lbs) that has some quickness and can plug the middle, that it would help the ILB's and DE's regardless of what the Pats or any other team do. I do agree with you that "they don't grow on trees," but I hope if one does come along, the Texans don't pass on him just because "he will only play 2 downs and won't be on the field that much."

infantrycak
05-06-2013, 12:03 PM
How often was Ngata on the field? I'd say he's a "top tier" NT.

Ngata is on the field most plays but he is not a pure NT. He lines up much of the time as a DE.

deucetx
05-06-2013, 12:06 PM
How often was Ngata on the field? I'd say he's a "top tier" NT. Even if he's lost a step over the years I can't imagine him being off the field for too long. I just think, and I'm sure others on this MB do too, that if the Texans had a NT that size (6'4" 330 lbs) that has some quickness and can plug the middle, that it would help the ILB's and DE's regardless of what the Pats or any other team do. I do agree with you that "they don't grow on trees," but I hope if one does come along, the Texans don't pass on him just because "he will only play 2 downs and won't be on the field that much."

He's actually not listed as their NT. Kemoeatu (sheesh that guy is freaking huge) and Terrence Cody are. I'm guessing Ngata gets moved around in similar fashion Watt slides in and out to take advantage of his athletic ability with that bulk. Wish we had one of those next to Watt though.

And I agree. I would hope that if a NT like you described was available that even Wade would see the need to change his defense a bit and snag that player up to utilize them more. Got to be flexible when a gem like that comes along. I know Wade had Ted Washington as his nose a few years so I assume he is willing to adapt if the right guy comes along.

Insideop
05-06-2013, 12:54 PM
Ngata is on the field most plays but he is not a pure NT. He lines up much of the time as a DE.

Yeah, I knew they used him as a DE, but he was listed as a DT on their roster. It must be nice having a guy with that size and quickness that you can move around on the line like that. But, like what was stated before, "they don't grow on trees."

Number19
05-06-2013, 06:46 PM
My understanding of Wade's defense comes from an excellent analysis I read a while back. ( As a side note, we call his base defense a 34, but it closely resembles a 52 ) With the right talent, Wade's base defense would stay on the field the majority of the game. The only offensive formation which might require a sub-package is an empty backfield - a five receiver spread formation. Wade has had to use the sub-packages so much because he hasn't had the talent not to.

Actually, offenses run a hurry up to catch you in your BASE defense to create the mismatches... This is precisely what I said, although I obviously did not make myself clear. I specifically remember one play where the offense had just made a play to get inside the red zone and we were trying to change our defense. The ball was snapped before our players had time to set up. It was actually kind of hilarious.

If the offense is not making substitutions, we shouldn't have to.

For Wade's defense to perform to its full potential, the NT must demand the C/OG double team.

76Texan
05-06-2013, 06:56 PM
It would be even nicer if you have both Vince Wilfork and Kyle Love (or Gnata) on the line along with Watt.

But I would settle for Jesse Williams at a cheaper price.
Obviously, Wade is taking a different approach nowadays, or so it seems.

AngryNateFTW
05-06-2013, 08:31 PM
Montori Hughes wasn't even impressive on film. I don't get it.

Agreed. I think most guys just want to vote for the small-school guy making it in the big leagues.

Number19
05-06-2013, 09:25 PM
Going into the draft, I hadn't done all my homework on Jesse Williams. It seems he had suffered a minor injury late in the season and it was speculated that this may have caused him to drop. I knew his "lower body" was not as developed as his upper body, some called it spindly. Because of his height, some questioned his ability to protect his lower body from injury.

I badly misjudged where he would be taken, but so did Kiper. The further he fell, the better value I felt he was. If taken in the 4th round, I think he would have won the starting spot. I don't think Travardo Williams will.

Maybe next year.

76Texan
05-06-2013, 09:30 PM
Going into the draft, I hadn't done all my homework on Jesse Williams. It seems he had suffered a minor injury late in the season and it was speculated that this may have caused him to drop. I knew his "lower body" was not as developed as his upper body, some called it spindly. Because of his height, some questioned his ability to protect his lower body from injury.

I badly misjudged where he would be taken, but so did Kiper. The further he fell, the better value I felt he was. If taken in the 4th round, I think he would have won the starting spot. I don't think Travardo Williams will.

Maybe next year.

I'm with you, but I guess Wade no longer likes big body???

AngryNateFTW
05-06-2013, 09:41 PM
I'm with you, but I guess Wade no longer likes big body???

Apparently Jesse Williams' back is JACKED UP. That being the reasoning for his complete FALL on draft day.

AngryNateFTW
05-06-2013, 09:45 PM
Going into the draft, I hadn't done all my homework on Jesse Williams. It seems he had suffered a minor injury late in the season and it was speculated that this may have caused him to drop. I knew his "lower body" was not as developed as his upper body, some called it spindly. Because of his height, some questioned his ability to protect his lower body from injury.

I badly misjudged where he would be taken, but so did Kiper. The further he fell, the better value I felt he was. If taken in the 4th round, I think he would have won the starting spot. I don't think Travardo Williams will.

Maybe next year.

I don't believe Trevardo Williams is being given the starting job or expected to win the starting job. He'll be used just like the 49ers used Aldon Smith his rookie year. (3rd down pass-rushing specialist) (Williams will also compete on ST's, should be fun watching him and Braman race to see who can hit the returner first)

You watch the tape on Trevardo and he could have easily had 18-20 sacks his final year at UConn. Literally 1-2 Milliseconds saw to that. (Only finished with 12.5 but should have had 2 more sacks against Teddy Bridgewater and that Louisville offensive front) With us having Kareem, Joseph, Ed Reed, D.Manning, and even Cushing sitting and waiting in the secondary I can see Trevardo getting that extra millisecond. (Unless Watt gets there before he does) :D

thunderkyss
05-07-2013, 11:03 AM
I just re-watched the Denver game. Even early after the safety, after the field goal, se were down by five & still owned the middle.

SW H-TOWN
05-07-2013, 12:21 PM
How often was Ngata on the field? I'd say he's a "top tier" NT. Even if he's lost a step over the years I can't imagine him being off the field for too long. I just think, and I'm sure others on this MB do too, that if the Texans had a NT that size (6'4" 330 lbs) that has some quickness and can plug the middle, that it would help the ILB's and DE's regardless of what the Pats or any other team do. I do agree with you that "they don't grow on trees," but I hope if one does come along, the Texans don't pass on him just because "he will only play 2 downs and won't be on the field that much."

We just need a NT who can command a double team, don't really care if he weighs 290 or 350. Even if the he is not on the field most of the time it would help in the run game, keep guys off our ILB's, and help us when the opposing team passes when we have a NT on the field. Watt will be double teamed a ton so having a guy who can overpower the C would be beneficial.