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View Full Version : Draft Grade - Round 3/2 Sam Montgomery


LikeMike
04-26-2013, 10:27 PM
How do you grade the second selection of the third round?

aussie_texan
04-26-2013, 10:29 PM
Great value in the 3rd

Wolf6151
04-26-2013, 10:32 PM
Never mind.

Playoffs
04-26-2013, 10:34 PM
Inc. - I want to know why "so many" teams took him off their board after Combine interview?

Corrosion
04-26-2013, 10:43 PM
I like the position and the guy obviously has talent but has questionmarks .... other players I would rather have had.


I give it a C-.

Rey
04-26-2013, 10:49 PM
I gave it a B, but it could easily be an A.

He plays very strong, but I didn't see the burst that I wanted to see. But I like his film more than I liked Merciless' film.

Corrosion
04-26-2013, 10:52 PM
I gave it a B, but it could easily be an A.

He plays very strong, but I didn't see the burst that I wanted to see. But I like his film more than I liked Merciless' film.

This could turn out to be their best pick of the draft ....He has a lot of talent , just character concerns.

So much for the Texans drafting choir boys .... :aggressive:

Fili
04-26-2013, 10:57 PM
B-
I think we should have gone ILB rather than OLB/DE but I guess it indirectly affects ILB.

The Pencil Neck
04-26-2013, 11:26 PM
B-
I think we should have gone ILB rather than OLB/DE but I guess it indirectly affects ILB.

This could mean that Brooks is going to bump inside to OLB or we could still get someone like Klein for ILB and use Montgomery in rotation with Reed and Mercilus. I expect us to take either another OLB or an ILB in the 4th.

Corrosion
04-26-2013, 11:31 PM
This could mean that Brooks is going to bump inside to OLB or we could still get someone like Klein for ILB and use Montgomery in rotation with Reed and Mercilus. I expect us to take either another OLB or an ILB in the 4th.

They are really thin at both LBer spots .... and outside of the rookie pool dont have a whole lot of $$ left to spend.
I think its almost a guarantee that they take at least one more LBer either inside or out.

They also need another defensive lineman with Cody gone and so many others coming back from injury.

Hope they land Klein with their next pick - they may need to move up some to make that happen.

The Pencil Neck
04-26-2013, 11:37 PM
Hope they land Klein with their next pick - they may need to move up some to make that happen.

I was really hoping we'd get Bostic in the 3rd. But when he got gobbled up so quick (along with all the other high ranking ILBs), I was sad.

Now it's almost Klein or we have to move Brooks Reed inside and pick up some more outside rushers.

Nico Johnson worries me because of his weakness against the pass.

Honoring Earl 34
04-26-2013, 11:45 PM
I gave it an A because there was a time when the Texans would not have taken a chance . This pick is well worth the risk .

mariowillshine15
04-26-2013, 11:49 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/shutdown-50-lsu-sam-montgomery-160419716--nfl.html

#38 on the Shutdown Corner top 50

jppaul
04-26-2013, 11:51 PM
I really really like him at the point of attack, I think he stacks and sheds better than any DE/OLB in this class. He has great short area quickness and burst, I question his ability to play in space, looks a little lost out there in man coverage when he is trailing for 20 yards or more. Also, his reaction time off snap looked mediocre at best (Disclaimer: I don't know if that was scheme driven because Alabama was hashing them with counters and inside draws). A lot of upside if he can loosen up the hips and tighten up his reaction time.

76Texan
04-27-2013, 08:25 AM
I really really like him at the point of attack, I think he stacks and sheds better than any DE/OLB in this class. He has great short area quickness and burst, I question his ability to play in space, looks a little lost out there in man coverage when he is trailing for 20 yards or more. Also, his reaction time off snap looked mediocre at best (Disclaimer: I don't know if that was scheme driven because Alabama was hashing them with counters and inside draws). A lot of upside if he can loosen up the hips and tighten up his reaction time.

I think it's the scheme. I've noticed it before. I wanted to study it some more but the mock draft didn't allow me much time. I picked him for the Lions early in the second round 'cause I figure he'd be good next to those guys; little do I know the Texans were to get him. I know I've seen Lavar Edwards do the same (sometimes) when he came in as the swing guy.
I think I've seen Montgomery play OLB in their 52 as well.

rmartin65
04-27-2013, 08:32 AM
Solid B in my opinion. Talent and need-wise I would give it an A, but I hate off the field concerns. Also not an overly explosive guy, which you want to see in a pass-rusher, so I dont think he will ever be considered elite in that regard. However, he should become a good pro (starter) for the Texans in a year or two.

EDIT- forgot to add that I don't see issues about his effort. He looked relentless in the couple games I caught.

dalemurphy
04-27-2013, 08:39 AM
Solid B in my opinion. Talent and need-wise I would give it an A, but I hate off the field concerns. Also not an overly explosive guy, which you want to see in a pass-rusher, so I dont think he will ever be considered elite in that regard. However, he should become a good pro (starter) for the Texans in a year or two.

EDIT- forgot to add that I don't see issues about his effort. He looked relentless in the couple games I caught.

The LSU Strength and Conditioning coach had serious issues with his work ethic and effort. I agree that he looks like an intense player on the field. However, this certainly raises concerns about his effort in preparation:

Here (http://www.rantsports.com/ncaa-football/2012/12/28/lsu-tigers-strength-and-conditioning-coach-posts-his-naughty-list/)

LikeMike
04-27-2013, 08:43 AM
The LSU Strength and Conditioning coach had serious issues with his work ethic and effort. I agree that he looks like an intense player on the field. However, this certainly raises concerns about his effort in preparation:

Here (http://www.rantsports.com/ncaa-football/2012/12/28/lsu-tigers-strength-and-conditioning-coach-posts-his-naughty-list/)

Well, he wouldn`t have fell to us if it weren`t for those concerns. But there are two things, that help me relax a little:

1. As far as I´ve read, the coaches changed his stance on him later - appearently you get on this list for missing one practice. And he improved his work ethic later. Plus: he looks good on film.

2. Our locker room: guys like JJ Watt or Cushing lead by example - AND they will let him know if they are not cool with his work ethic. I think our locker room is the perfect place for a player, with a little problem with his work ethic.

In the end it is a bit of a gamble. But when you have the chance to grab a first round talent at the end of round 3 and are convinced you can correct his problems, I am ok with this pick.

dalemurphy
04-27-2013, 08:48 AM
Well, he wouldn`t have fell to us if it weren`t for those concerns. But there are two things, that help me relax a little:

1. As far as I´ve read, the coaches changed his stance on him later - appearently you get on this list for missing one practice. And he improved his work ethic later. Plus: he looks good on film.

I have not seen this. That does make me feel better about it... If that is a motivational tactic that LSU uses and not a sign created especially for this group of 10 misfits. Do you have a link or source where you learned this?

LikeMike
04-27-2013, 08:54 AM
Sure, here it is:

http://deadspin.com/5971949/heres-the-bitchy-sign-an-lsu-strength-and-conditioning-coach-used-to-embarrass-motivate-his-players

There is a twitter pic from his coach saying:


Tommy Moffitt @TommyMoffitt

@ChaddScott The pic from office window is old news. These guys had all missed a class. Great kids and hard workers. #tigertough #LSU

Kaiser Toro
04-27-2013, 09:54 AM
Would rather have him after he fails the first time in the NFL. Hopefully this does not become a "project" to nurture, cut him immediately if dumb flares up again.

Talented, but introducing apathy into a locker room with questionable leadership is not a recipe for success.

Thorn
04-27-2013, 10:02 AM
In the end it is a bit of a gamble. But when you have the chance to grab a first round talent at the end of round 3 and are convinced you can correct his problems, I am ok with this pick.

This thought almost makes the choice palatable to me. Almost. I do hope he works out and my negative feelings are proven incorrect.

Honoring Earl 34
04-27-2013, 11:11 AM
This thought almost makes the choice palatable to me. Almost. I do hope he works out and my negative feelings are proven incorrect.

The Texans can't get to the next level without taking chances and hitting on some . They did the exact opposite of Jerry Jones .

The guy is different .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWuUHqSLs30

thunderkyss
04-27-2013, 11:26 AM
In the end it is a bit of a gamble. But when you have the chance to grab a first round talent at the end of round 3 and are convinced you can correct his problems, I am ok with this pick.

From the little bit I've read, it appears the comments he made about taking plays off is what got him kicked off other teams boards. However, none of the scouting reports I've seen mentioned taking plays off, or a lack of motor.

Hopefully this is a case of people putting too much stock in the words people use, & not enough in production.

As far as the other observations... tight hips & concerns in space, if this guy is who he looks like, he'll be asked to cover someone 3 to 6 times a season...

Honoring Earl 34
04-27-2013, 11:32 AM
From the little bit I've read, it appears the comments he made about taking plays off is what got him kicked off other teams boards. However, none of the scouting reports I've seen mentioned taking plays off, or a lack of motor.

Hopefully this is a case of people putting too much stock in the words people use, & not enough in production.

As far as the other observations... tight hips & concerns in space, if this guy is who he looks like, he'll be asked to cover someone 3 to 6 times a season...

I'd rather have a talented guy to learn from JJ , Ninja , Cushing , Reed , and Dobbins than another try hard guy from Colorado State .

beerlover
04-27-2013, 11:44 AM
you can just throw out this whole BPA BS now. teams draft for need & Texans needed a run stopper @ LOLB. also think Texans should have taken Brandon Williams with 1st pick of 3rd rd. then Brennan Williams 2nd pick. Montgomery would most likely still be available in 4th. reason why I gave them only a C

Honoring Earl 34
04-27-2013, 11:47 AM
you can just throw out this whole BPA BS now. teams draft for need & Texans needed a run stopper @ LOLB. also think Texans should have taken Brandon Williams with 1st pick of 3rd rd. then Brennan Williams 2nd pick. Montgomery would most likely still be available in 4th. reason why I gave them only a C

Yep ... I'm hoping / guessing they know more than I do because I wanted a NG also .

rmartin65
04-27-2013, 11:48 AM
you can just throw out this whole BPA BS now. teams draft for need & Texans needed a run stopper @ LOLB. also think Texans should have taken Brandon Williams with 1st pick of 3rd rd. then Brennan Williams 2nd pick. Montgomery would most likely still be available in 4th. reason why I gave them only a C

I respectfully disagree BL. Montgomery has borderline 1st talent, and I would be very surprised had Montgomery been available in the 4th. Hell, I was surprised he was there in the third. There had also been a run of OLBs taken (Moore, Moore, and Lemonier went in the 3rd before Montgomery, and Gooden went after), so the FO took a guy they had highly rated.

Hervoyel
04-27-2013, 12:06 PM
The trick to this guy is getting him to "want to". What I took from his comments was that he had a harder time getting up for the lesser opponents which is a common issue but players don't usually admit to it. He seems to grasp the idea that in the NFL there are no real lesser opponents so I think he'll be fine.

Goldensilence
04-27-2013, 12:13 PM
I think he'll be fine, good locker room, putting anyone near Cushing and Watt who thinks taking plays off won't last long.

I love his on the field motor though and looks like the team will have options far as Reed moving inside if they want or don't take an ILB.

Mr teX
04-28-2013, 09:53 AM
I like the pick, this guy has explosion and with the right scheme and coaching, he can be an elite edge rusher in this league. Cant see why everyones down on this pick.

Rey
04-28-2013, 08:10 PM
Just judging from what I see on film I see a guy that plays strong and is aware. Sets the edge well and looks like a good enough pass rusher for the strong side. I'm excited about him and trevardo Williams because our olb's did not excite me.

Seegara
04-28-2013, 08:21 PM
With his history of a torn ACL it was a complete waste of a valuable draft pick.

The Pencil Neck
04-28-2013, 08:24 PM
With his history of a torn ACL it was a complete waste of a valuable draft pick.

That was 2010.

This isn't 1960, anymore. People can come back from ACL issues now.

Lucky
04-28-2013, 08:28 PM
With his history of a torn ACL it was a complete waste of a valuable draft pick.
Should the Texans go ahead and cut Brian Cushing? He has had a torn ACL, you know.

Seegara
04-30-2013, 01:05 PM
Should the Texans go ahead and cut Brian Cushing? He has had a torn ACL, you know.
Absolutely. Trade him if possible, or cut him and spend the money elsewhere. If I remember right, Clay Matthews was available when Cush was drafted. Cush had a college history of being injury prone, and has been sidelined by injuries time after time since then, culminating in the big one from which he'll never fully recover.
In the future, don't ignore injury history of prospects.

Dutchrudder
04-30-2013, 02:37 PM
Absolutely. Trade him if possible, or cut him and spend the money elsewhere. If I remember right, Bruce Matthews was available when Cush was drafted. Cush had a college history of being injury prone, and has been sidelined by injuries time after time since then, culminating in the big one from which he'll never fully recover.
In the future, don't ignore injury history of prospects.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/131/351/eb6.jpg?1307463786

Rey
04-30-2013, 02:40 PM
Absolutely. Trade him if possible, or cut him and spend the money elsewhere. If I remember right, Bruce Matthews was available when Cush was drafted. Cush had a college history of being injury prone, and has been sidelined by injuries time after time since then, culminating in the big one from which he'll never fully recover.
In the future, don't ignore injury history of prospects.

http://generatormeme.com/media/created/xp4gzj.jpg

HOU-TEX
04-30-2013, 02:48 PM
Absolutely. Trade him if possible, or cut him and spend the money elsewhere. If I remember right, Bruce Matthews was available when Cush was drafted. Cush had a college history of being injury prone, and has been sidelined by injuries time after time since then, culminating in the big one from which he'll never fully recover.
In the future, don't ignore injury history of prospects.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/131/351/eb6.jpg?1307463786

L....O.....L

I've read some whacked out comments around here, but this one takes the cake.

We should give it it's own thread. Another "Cockroach" type thread

HOU-TEX
04-30-2013, 02:48 PM
http://generatormeme.com/media/created/xp4gzj.jpg

:spit: Gotta spread the rep

Mr teX
04-30-2013, 02:49 PM
Absolutely. Trade him if possible, or cut him and spend the money elsewhere. If I remember right, Bruce Matthews was available when Cush was drafted. Cush had a college history of being injury prone, and has been sidelined by injuries time after time since then, culminating in the big one from which he'll never fully recover.
In the future, don't ignore injury history of prospects.

Lol at Bruce Matthews.....you mean his nephew right? and as far as ACL injuries...you did just see Adrian Peterson damn near break the single season rushing record last year right?

Lurvinator11
04-30-2013, 04:48 PM
Absolutely. Trade him if possible, or cut him and spend the money elsewhere. If I remember right, Bruce Matthews was available when Cush was drafted. Cush had a college history of being injury prone, and has been sidelined by injuries time after time since then, culminating in the big one from which he'll never fully recover.
In the future, don't ignore injury history of prospects.

:kubepalm:
:wadepalm:
:vincepalm:
:toropalm:
:facepalm:
:hankpalm:

76Texan
04-30-2013, 09:59 PM
Speaking of taking plays off against lesser opponents, Hopkins was pretty good at that against Ball St. and Furman.

On plays that were called to the other side, he barely started his routes.
On run plays to the other side, or even up the middle, sometimes he just stood around.
I even noticed him not doing much of a job on a run play to his side.
The runner got tackled right into his feet. He could have gained a few more yards had Hopkins did his job with gusto.

All that changed the following week against Florida St., however, Hopkins worked hard in his blocking and route running even when the plays weren't to his side.

So yeah, I think a lot of guys don't get a thrill out of beating up on weaklings.
I don't need to ask them the question; I can see it on the field.

b0ng
05-01-2013, 09:09 AM
Absolutely. Trade him if possible, or cut him and spend the money elsewhere. If I remember right, Clay Matthews was available when Cush was drafted. Cush had a college history of being injury prone, and has been sidelined by injuries time after time since then, culminating in the big one from which he'll never fully recover.
In the future, don't ignore injury history of prospects.

This has to be a fakepost. The logical end to this train of thought is that we no longer have Andre, Watt (elbow), Foster, Cushing, JoJo, Manning, Tate, or Schaub. We'd be like a healthy Cleveland Browns.

BigBull17
05-01-2013, 09:15 AM
Speaking of taking plays off against lesser opponents, Hopkins was pretty good at that against Ball St. and Furman.

On plays that were called to the other side, he barely started his routes.
On run plays to the other side, or even up the middle, sometimes he just stood around.
I even noticed him not doing much of a job on a run play to his side.
The runner got tackled right into his feet. He could have gained a few more yards had Hopkins did his job with gusto.

All that changed the following week against Florida St., however, Hopkins worked hard in his blocking and route running even when the plays weren't to his side.

So yeah, I think a lot of guys don't get a thrill out of beating up on weaklings.
I don't need to ask them the question; I can see it on the field.

Not making an excuse, but I've played against cream puffs and it is hard to stay focused when you are absolutely destroying someone. And if that's when you take plays off, you'll probably never have that problem in an NFL game.

ObsiWan
05-01-2013, 12:08 PM
:spit: Gotta spread the rep
I got him.
...and Dutch too.

ObsiWan
05-01-2013, 12:10 PM
This has to be a fakepost. The logical end to this train of thought is that we no longer have Andre, Watt (elbow), Foster, Cushing, JoJo, Manning, Tate, or Schaub. We'd be like a healthy Cleveland Browns.

And the Vikes should have cut Adrian Peterson...
and the Broncos should have never signed Peyton...
and the Saints should have never taken a chance on Drew Brees
and MJD should be cut by the Jags
(hey, I'd kinda be good with that one...)

Dutchrudder
05-01-2013, 12:12 PM
Not making an excuse, but I've played against cream puffs and it is hard to stay focused when you are absolutely destroying someone. And if that's when you take plays off, you'll probably never have that problem in an NFL game.

My only concern is if he will take off plays when his team is getting destroyed. He never was in that situation at LSU, aside from maybe that championship game against Bama. Might be worth a look there to see if he's trying to help his team get back in the game, or is just giving up. In any case, motor/drive issues can be somewhat expected at the end of the 3rd round and beyond, if he didn't have questions like this about him, he would have gone in the 2nd or earlier.

76Texan
05-01-2013, 12:34 PM
My only concern is if he will take off plays when his team is getting destroyed. He never was in that situation at LSU, aside from maybe that championship game against Bama. Might be worth a look there to see if he's trying to help his team get back in the game, or is just giving up. In any case, motor/drive issues can be somewhat expected at the end of the 3rd round and beyond, if he didn't have questions like this about him, he would have gone in the 2nd or earlier.

He played hard throughout that BCS game.
It was a grind out game with only 52 defensive snaps for LSU (and 27 pass attempts for McCarron).

Montgomery got a sack and at least one (maybe 2 QB pressures).
He was in for two assists in the run game.
They had him mostly two-gapping to control the edge.

Bama had 331 yards in total offense, more than 100 under their average.

Dutchrudder
05-02-2013, 01:00 AM
He played hard throughout that BCS game.
It was a grind out game with only 52 defensive snaps for LSU (and 27 pass attempts for McCarron).

Montgomery got a sack and at least one (maybe 2 QB pressures).
He was in for two assists in the run game.
They had him mostly two-gapping to control the edge.

Bama had 331 yards in total offense, more than 100 under their average.

Well that's good to hear, though I'm not surprised. Before the combine I saw several mocks that had him as a late 1st round pick. I just hope he can make the conversion to 34 OLB.

beerlover
05-02-2013, 01:59 AM
issue with Sam Montgomery is where does he fit? will he replace Reed LOLB then kick Brooks inside next to Cushing? I don't think so IMO. He certainly could back-up Brooks Reed. In case of injury he is valuable insurance. I think his best option is to get with strength coach, disprove his critics, lay on a few pounds in low 280's & swing inside to rotate with Antonio @ RDE. It's not his strength to be out in space or in coverage. He can fight with bigger dudes & win with his aggression, strength & excellent lateral quickness. Very similar in size to Connor Barwin just not as fast. Some of us wanted Wade to try & move Connor inside on rushing downs, with his hand on the ground like a true end. Montgomery is even better suited to pull this off. But you know the Texans, they will exhaust every avenue before they expose him game day & take their time developing him, molding him into position then when the moment of need arises insert him in the lineup. Far as 3-4 ends go he would be a quick one, in fact he had identical 10 yard split as JJ Watt @ the combine, gave up 30 lbs but you get my drift.:swatter:

The Pencil Neck
05-02-2013, 02:29 AM
issue with Sam Montgomery is where does he fit? will he replace Reed LOLB then kick Brooks inside next to Cushing? I don't think so IMO. He certainly could back-up Brooks Reed. In case of injury he is valuable insurance. I think his best option is to get with strength coach, disprove his critics, lay on a few pounds in low 280's & swing inside to rotate with Antonio @ RDE. It's not his strength to be out in space or in coverage. He can fight with bigger dudes & win with his aggression, strength & excellent lateral quickness. Very similar in size to Connor Barwin just not as fast. Some of us wanted Wade to try & move Connor inside on rushing downs, with his hand on the ground like a true end. Montgomery is even better suited to pull this off. But you know the Texans, they will exhaust every avenue before they expose him game day & take their time developing him, molding him into position then when the moment of need arises insert him in the lineup. Far as 3-4 ends go he would be a quick one, in fact he had identical 10 yard split as JJ Watt @ the combine, gave up 30 lbs but you get my drift.:swatter:

So... I was thinking about this, too.

Montgomery at SAM (or WILL) is asking him to work in space when he hasn't shown even the first inkling that he could (that I'm aware of.) OTOH, he could gain some weight and play DE to take over for the Ninja and get into the DE rotation. This makes a lot of sense if Jamison isn't going to be coming back soon and if they want to groom someone for Smith's possible departure next year... and if they don't think Crick is that guy.

I was watching Trevardo playing against NC State. My. God. He's scary fast coming off the edge. He completely embarrassed their LT on a couple of plays. He played with his hand up quite a bit although he was used entirely to rush from what I saw.

I feel infinitely more comfortable with Trevardo playing at the Will than I do with Montgomery at Sam or Will.

I need to go watch more Montgomery tape, I think.

Lucky
05-02-2013, 11:08 AM
Montgomery at SAM (or WILL) is asking him to work in space when he hasn't shown even the first inkling that he could (that I'm aware of.) OTOH, he could gain some weight and play DE to take over for the Ninja and get into the DE rotation.
I was listening to a radio interview earlier in the week with a reporter who covers LSU. He said that Montgomery had played at 245 lbs in 2011, and that he felt that Montgomery was qicker and better served if he lost the extra weight. I remember Wade asking Mario to drop some lbs in his move to OLB. I expect he will do the same with Montgomery.

Rey
05-02-2013, 11:29 AM
I was listening to a radio interview earlier in the week with a reporter who covers LSU. He said that Montgomery had played at 245 lbs in 2011, and that he felt that Montgomery was qicker and better served if he lost the extra weight. I remember Wade asking Mario to drop some lbs in his move to OLB. I expect he will do the same with Montgomery.

Was about to post the same thing. I don't think Montgomery is an interior player.

ChampionTexan
05-02-2013, 11:32 AM
issue with Sam Montgomery is where does he fit?

From an article comparing Montgomery to Mingo written in early February (apologies if this has been posted, but I haven't seen it anywhere on the site).

While I am confident that Montgomery could be a productive outside linebacker in a 34 scheme because he would be outstanding against the run and a solid pass rusher, his best position would be as a base 43 defensive end who can shut down the run to his side of the field and will get pressure on the QB through effort, technique and strength despite lacking elite athletic traits. Mingo is likely to be drafted higher, but if I were making the selection I would choose Montgomery as I feel he is a more complete all-around player who should be able to challenge for a starting job as a rookie. Mingo reminds me a little of former Titans' pass rusher Jevon Kearse and current Bengals' pass rusher Aaron Maybin, while Montgomery is more like the Ravens Paul Kruger.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Compare-Contrast-NFL-Prospects-NFP-Version-10.html

It's far and away positive, and while he does indicate he feels Montgomery would be better in a 4-3, he also draws the comparison to Paul Kruger who's spent his entire career (up until now) playing in a 3-4. Seems like it's one of those things where you look to Wade and let him figure out how to maximize the skill set Montgomery brings to the table.

jppaul
05-02-2013, 12:03 PM
So... I was thinking about this, too.

Montgomery at SAM (or WILL) is asking him to work in space when he hasn't shown even the first inkling that he could (that I'm aware of.) OTOH, he could gain some weight and play DE to take over for the Ninja and get into the DE rotation. This makes a lot of sense if Jamison isn't going to be coming back soon and if they want to groom someone for Smith's possible departure next year... and if they don't think Crick is that guy.

I was watching Trevardo playing against NC State. My. God. He's scary fast coming off the edge. He completely embarrassed their LT on a couple of plays. He played with his hand up quite a bit although he was used entirely to rush from what I saw.

I feel infinitely more comfortable with Trevardo playing at the Will than I do with Montgomery at Sam or Will.

I need to go watch more Montgomery tape, I think.

No I think you nailed it. He is going to have trouble in space. He is very good at the poa though, and could probably get away with putting 10 lbs on and playing at 275 since he is so stout against the run. Watch the Alabama tape he did a great job stumping thier nfl talent offensive line.

michaelm
05-02-2013, 05:32 PM
All the concerns I've seen in this thread are so similar to concerns we had a few years ago, that you could literally replace Montgomery's name with Mario Williams name.
Montgomery will probably be WOLB, and in Wade's system, that position is very much like a "rush" DE. Didn't Wade say Mario was going to rush the passer something like 95% of the time, and drop in zone only occasionally?

The Pencil Neck
05-02-2013, 06:10 PM
NOLA Com on Sam Montgomery (http://www.nola.com/lsu/index.ssf/2013/04/lsu_defensive_end_sam_montgome_5.html)

I loved this...
He once responded to the question, 'What do you think of Bear Bryant?' with 'I don't know, I haven't seen film of him.'"


I admit. I lold.

The Pencil Neck
05-02-2013, 06:16 PM
All the concerns I've seen in this thread are so similar to concerns we had a few years ago, that you could literally replace Montgomery's name with Mario Williams name.
Montgomery will probably be WOLB, and in Wade's system, that position is very much like a "rush" DE. Didn't Wade say Mario was going to rush the passer something like 95% of the time, and drop in zone only occasionally?

But for entirely different reasons.

Mario had questions about his motor because he disappeared from games and on tape.

Montgomery has questions because he said he didn't try as hard against weaker opponents because it was hard to get as excited but that he didn't expect that in the NFL. BUT... on tape and in games, Montgomery was a high-motor player. He does NOT disappear from games. He had at least one sack in almost every game he played in.

But the Mario comparison is interesting to me.

Physically, the guys aren't comparable, really. Mario is just so much bigger. Mario is just a freak.

But to my eye, at least, the way Montgomery moves reminds me of Mario.

Since Wade thought he could make a Will out of Mario and since Mario seemed to be thriving in his defense, I'll go along with the move of Montgomery to OLB. I don't think he'll be able to go SAM, though, if he has any coverage responsibilities. I think he'll be a monster if they let him run downhill.

Tailgate
05-02-2013, 08:06 PM
issue with Sam Montgomery is where does he fit? will he replace Reed LOLB then kick Brooks inside next to Cushing? I don't think so IMO. He certainly could back-up Brooks Reed. In case of injury he is valuable insurance. I think his best option is to get with strength coach, disprove his critics, lay on a few pounds in low 280's & swing inside to rotate with Antonio @ RDE. It's not his strength to be out in space or in coverage. He can fight with bigger dudes & win with his aggression, strength & excellent lateral quickness. Very similar in size to Connor Barwin just not as fast. Some of us wanted Wade to try & move Connor inside on rushing downs, with his hand on the ground like a true end. Montgomery is even better suited to pull this off. But you know the Texans, they will exhaust every avenue before they expose him game day & take their time developing him, molding him into position then when the moment of need arises insert him in the lineup. Far as 3-4 ends go he would be a quick one, in fact he had identical 10 yard split as JJ Watt @ the combine, gave up 30 lbs but you get my drift.:swatter:


This is exactly right. No idea why everyone keeps talking about the OLB pozish? To me this move is to spell the aging A. smith this year and groom him to be his long term replacement.

thunderkyss
05-02-2013, 08:07 PM
This is exactly right. No idea why everyone keeps talking about the OLB pozish? To me this move is to spell the aging A. smith this year and groom him to be his long term replacement.

He's not going to replace Antonio Smith.

michaelm
05-02-2013, 09:19 PM
But for entirely different reasons.

Mario had questions about his motor because he disappeared from games and on tape.

Montgomery has questions because he said he didn't try as hard against weaker opponents because it was hard to get as excited but that he didn't expect that in the NFL. BUT... on tape and in games, Montgomery was a high-motor player. He does NOT disappear from games. He had at least one sack in almost every game he played in.

But the Mario comparison is interesting to me.

Physically, the guys aren't comparable, really. Mario is just so much bigger. Mario is just a freak.

But to my eye, at least, the way Montgomery moves reminds me of Mario.

Since Wade thought he could make a Will out of Mario and since Mario seemed to be thriving in his defense, I'll go along with the move of Montgomery to OLB. I don't think he'll be able to go SAM, though, if he has any coverage responsibilities. I think he'll be a monster if they let him run downhill.

I'm not really drawing a comparison between the players themselves as much as pointing out that a lot of people are posing pretty much the same questions about Montgomery as were asked about Mario, referring to him as strictly a DE, hand-in-the-dirt type of player who doesn't do well in space/coverage.
That's not what Wade really wants from that position, so I don't really get the point of questioning a players attributes that will rarely be required.

Texan_Bill
05-02-2013, 09:28 PM
I'd be curious as to why Kaiser Toro, painekiller, Tailgate, TEXANS84 gave a "D" rating.

I didn't give the Texans draft a much better grade at a "C", but a "D" grade intrigues me. Guys, give me your reasoning if you want.

Seriously, just curious because maybe I missed something.

ChampionTexan
05-02-2013, 10:50 PM
This is exactly right. No idea why everyone keeps talking about the OLB pozish? To me this move is to spell the aging A. smith this year and groom him to be his long term replacement.

Probably - at least in part -because of the following comments found on the team website:

The Texans will use Montgomery (6-3, 262) as an outside linebacker. They plan to try him on the strongside first to potentially form a three-man rotation with starters Brooks Reed and Whitney Mercilus.

LINK (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Texans-draft-LSU-DE-Sam-Montgomery-95th-overall/551e39b0-7967-4e5a-b13e-a8537d997756)

Rey
05-02-2013, 10:57 PM
Antonio smith is an interior player in this defense. Smith plays over the guard a bunch. That is not montgomery's game. Montgomery is an edge player.

The Pencil Neck
05-02-2013, 11:08 PM
I'm not really drawing a comparison between the players themselves as much as pointing out that a lot of people are posing pretty much the same questions about Montgomery as were asked about Mario, referring to him as strictly a DE, hand-in-the-dirt type of player who doesn't do well in space/coverage.
That's not what Wade really wants from that position, so I don't really get the point of questioning a players attributes that will rarely be required.

Well, that's where the whole WILL vs. SAM conversation comes up.

From what I recall, Wade played Mario at the Will where he would have minimal coverage responsibilities and his main function would be to penetrate and disrupt. And I can see Montgomery fitting into that role like Mario.

But they're talking about trying Montgomery first at the SAM to see if he can read and cover and if he can't THEN moving him to WILL where he'll have limited reads and more of a penetrate and destroy function.

I'm just having a problem seeing this guy as a SAM, even though that's his name.

Rey
05-02-2013, 11:35 PM
They're Putting him at sam because he plays strong. He holds the point well and overall he's good against the run.

Brooks Reed didn't cover people coming out of college either...and honestly he's not some body that you want playing a bunch of coverage either. All these guys are converted DE's who primarily rushed the quayernack on passing downs.

You just want your strong side OLB to be decent enough to drop into zone...not get completely embarrased on the rate occasions you have to play man.



But while we're talking about Reed, i don't really think he's all that good. I think he's ok. I don't care for him at OLB because I don't think he's a good pass rusher from the edge. I don't really like him at MLB because I don't think he's fluid enough in coverage (which he'd be doing a lot more of) and I don't think he's a sideline to sideline guy. I don't think he brings a lot of value to that position on much else besides runs in between the tackles where he can use his strength and leverage to stuff the hole.

But I think he's an ok solb and he'd be a below average MLB.

Not a merciless fan either. He plays stiff IMO and he nor reed are good at getting off blocks.

I honestly think they drafted two olb's because they realized that their edge players were sub par. Reed and merciless need to show major improvement this year or I'd rotate some other guys in there. We can't have such pathetic pressure from the edges again this season.

I'm looking for both of the rookies we drafted to be involved in the pas rush this year because frankly I don't think the incumbents will do enough in passing situations to keep them off the field.

Tailgate
05-02-2013, 11:37 PM
He's not going to replace Antonio Smith.

Where else is he going to play then? He is not built to play in space where Reed is and the other option is WOLB, which is where our 2012 1st round pick is currently.

Look at the man. He is 6'6 260, his measurables are not that far off from Smith. Just watching him he looks like he is a monster that will only get more bulk and gutt as opposed to an athletic freak. I just see him with his hand in the dirt type of player. Im sure Wade has something up his sleeve, and it will be interesting to see it play out.

After watching more film, I regret giving him a D. More knee jerk, but still a C because I just dont see his fit yet for this D. I hope he becomes a stud for us.

But conversely I really love the Williams pick. He brings that speed we need off the edge.

The Pencil Neck
05-02-2013, 11:41 PM
I honestly think they drafted two olb's because they realized that their edge players were sub par. Reed and merciless need to show major improvement this year or I'd rotate some other guys in there. We can't have such pathetic pressure from the edges again this season.

I'm looking for both of the rookies we drafted to be involved in the pas rush this year because frankly I don't think the incumbents will do enough in passing situations to keep them off the field.

I think you're completely correct. I was thinking of the SAM jamming the TE and then taking him into coverage and Montgomery's not going to be good at that... but I think I was wrong.

Montgomery will easily be able to handle the POA on the strongside. He would be a beast in that sort of situation and, like you said, much better than Reed is at it.

And while watching Williams, I kept thinking that he looked like he'd be better at Will than Reed or Mercilus ever have.

Honoring Earl 34
05-02-2013, 11:44 PM
Where else is he going to play then? He is not built to play in space where Reed is and the other option is WOLB, which is where our 2012 1st round pick is currently.

Look at the man. He is 6'6 260, his measurables are not that far off from Smith. Just watching him he looks like he is a monster that will only get more bulk and gutt as opposed to an athletic freak. I just see him with his hand in the dirt type of player. Im sure Wade has something up his sleeve, and it will be interesting to see it play out.

After watching more film, I regret giving him a D. More knee jerk, but still a C because I just dont see his fit yet for this D. I hope he becomes a stud for us.

But conversely I really love the Williams pick. He brings that speed we need off the edge.

He's not 6'6 .

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=89710&draftyear=2013&genpos=DE

Tailgate
05-02-2013, 11:47 PM
He's not 6'6 .

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=89710&draftyear=2013&genpos=DE

Yea, just caught that. My bad 6'3. Smith 6'4

Honoring Earl 34
05-02-2013, 11:52 PM
Yea, just caught that. My bad 6'3. Smith 6'4

He has a good 10 yard split .

Tailgate
05-03-2013, 12:17 AM
He has a good 10 yard split .

He does? I thought it was average. He was slower than Reed, Mercilus, Barwin, and T Williams.

jppaul
05-03-2013, 12:40 AM
He has a good 10 yard split .

I don't think he is going to have an issue with coverage within ten yards, very good short area quickness, but he lumbers like Williams after 15 yards.

wolf123
05-03-2013, 12:55 AM
I've watch a bunch of games and there is no way he can cover anybody. He looks exactly like Mario Williams in space. Has bad poor change of direction skills.

It will be interesting to see what type of player he turns into now that he's putting in effort to change his body.

First thing they need to work on is his ability to fire off the ball. He's so slow coming off the snap.

The Pencil Neck
05-03-2013, 01:47 AM
I've watch a bunch of games and there is no way he can cover anybody. He looks exactly like Mario Williams in space. Has bad poor change of direction skills.

It will be interesting to see what type of player he turns into now that he's putting in effort to change his body.

First thing they need to work on is his ability to fire off the ball. He's so slow coming off the snap.

First off, remember that LSU had a mush-rush philosophy where the linemen aren't supposed to penetrate quickly as much as read and react.

But also, if they're putting him over the TE, his job is going to be to knock the snot out of the TE to disrupt any timing patterns, and then read whether to tackle the RB or go after the QB.

There's no way this guy can cover people. He doesn't have the agility. But he is a work-hard and get to the QB kind of guy and I think that's what Wade and Reggie want from him.

The speed will be Trevardo/Mercilus coming off the weak side pushing the QB toward Montgomery/Reed or up into the pocket toward Smith/Watt. Coverage will be handled by the ILBs and the Safeties.

At least, that's my understanding.

wolf123
05-03-2013, 01:52 AM
First off, remember that LSU had a mush-rush philosophy where the linemen aren't supposed to penetrate quickly as much as read and react.

But also, if they're putting him over the TE, his job is going to be to knock the snot out of the TE to disrupt any timing patterns, and then read whether to tackle the RB or go after the QB.

There's no way this guy can cover people. He doesn't have the agility. But he is a work-hard and get to the QB kind of guy and I think that's what Wade and Reggie want from him.

The speed will be Trevardo/Mercilus coming off the weak side pushing the QB toward Montgomery/Reed or up into the pocket toward Smith/Watt. Coverage will be handled by the ILBs and the Safeties.

At least, that's my understanding.

He is consistently the last one off the ball. He's disruptive off the edge due to his strength. To me his best position will be LDE or end in a one gap 3-4.

Scooter
05-03-2013, 07:45 AM
i think yall are over complicating montgomery's role on the defense. he's basically replacing barwin. his main role will be to anchor the edge in our base personnel at SOLB and provide a heavier skillset at DE in our nickel packages to help prevent some of the weakness we had last season. he's not going to kick inside and replace smith, he's adding beef outside opposite the more singular pass rushers mercilus and williams while still able to collapse the pocket and get to the quarterback. he'll at most be asked to shadow runningbacks in coverage, but even that's unlikely unless we start losing ILB's again.

michaelm
05-03-2013, 11:06 AM
Well, that's where the whole WILL vs. SAM conversation comes up.

From what I recall, Wade played Mario at the Will where he would have minimal coverage responsibilities and his main function would be to penetrate and disrupt. And I can see Montgomery fitting into that role like Mario.

But they're talking about trying Montgomery first at the SAM to see if he can read and cover and if he can't THEN moving him to WILL where he'll have limited reads and more of a penetrate and destroy function.

I'm just having a problem seeing this guy as a SAM, even though that's his name.

I fully agree. I see him at Will when all is said and done.

wolf123
05-03-2013, 12:26 PM
I fully agree. I see him at Will when all is said and done.

If all he can be is a WOLB then he will be a huge disappointment. He's not a natural pass rusher and lack athleticism. That's why the coaching staff wants him to be a SOLB first. He would be worse then Connor Barwin in terms of pass rush if he was on the weak side.

Rey
05-03-2013, 12:44 PM
If all he can be is a WOLB then he will be a huge disappointment. He's not a natural pass rusher and lack athleticism. That's why the coaching staff wants him to be a SOLB first. He would be worse then Connor Barwin in terms of pass rush if he was on the weak side.

I don't agree with that.

Barwin's best attribute was his athleticism. He gained some weight/added muscle and IMO lost some of that flexibility and speed. He should have changed his pass rushing style, but instead he continued to try to be a speed rusher.

I think Montgomery knows what brought him. He's a strength guy. He's not going to try to be a speed guy. Not to say he couldn't use quickness in his moves, but he's not going to try to beat guys around the edge all the time. He's going to get into guys and move them backward and use strength and leverage to come off of them to get to the QB.

Also, it should be noted that he will likely lose some weight. Lucky has pointed this out and someone else has as well. He played lighter in the past and Wade asked Mario to lose some weight...So put two and two together...

I do agree that he'd be a better SOLB, but I don't agree that having him at WOLB would be a dissapointment. I think his skills against the run would be better served on the strong side, but I don't think he's so awful as a past rusher that he'd completely suck on the weakside.

wolf123
05-03-2013, 01:30 PM
I don't agree with that.

Barwin's best attribute was his athleticism. He gained some weight/added muscle and IMO lost some of that flexibility and speed. He should have changed his pass rushing style, but instead he continued to try to be a speed rusher.

I think Montgomery knows what brought him. He's a strength guy. He's not going to try to be a speed guy. Not to say he couldn't use quickness in his moves, but he's not going to try to beat guys around the edge all the time. He's going to get into guys and move them backward and use strength and leverage to come off of them to get to the QB.

Also, it should be noted that he will likely lose some weight. Lucky has pointed this out and someone else has as well. He played lighter in the past and Wade asked Mario to lose some weight...So put two and two together...

I do agree that he'd be a better SOLB, but I don't agree that having him at WOLB would be a dissapointment. I think his skills against the run would be better served on the strong side, but I don't think he's so awful as a past rusher that he'd completely suck on the weakside.

If you don't like Mercilous as a pass rusher on the Weak side you won't like Montgomery. Montgomery is better then mercilous in one area and that is strength.

You don't like Brooks Reed as a pass rusher and he's better at everything then Montgomery.

The rush LB spot in this defense has to be dominate at rushing the passer. Last year we were terrible at both spots rushing the passer.

The Pencil Neck
05-03-2013, 01:57 PM
If you don't like Mercilous as a pass rusher on the Weak side you won't like Montgomery. Montgomery is better then mercilous in one area and that is strength.

You don't like Brooks Reed as a pass rusher and he's better at everything then Montgomery.

The rush LB spot in this defense has to be dominate at rushing the passer. Last year we were terrible at both spots rushing the passer.

That's why Montgomery is better over the TE where he can use his strength against the run game and his sacks will come in clean up where his motor takes over.

Williams is the rush linebacker to watch, I think. He's got the speed to do what Mercilus was expected to do.

I think we're going to see Reed and Montgomery used in a situational rotation at the SAM and Mercilus and Williams in a rotation as the Rush LB.

Rey
05-03-2013, 02:41 PM
If you don't like Mercilous as a pass rusher on the Weak side you won't like Montgomery. Montgomery is better then mercilous in one area and that is strength.

You don't like Brooks Reed as a pass rusher and he's better at everything then Montgomery.

The rush LB spot in this defense has to be dominate at rushing the passer. Last year we were terrible at both spots rushing the passer.

I just disagree with your analysis.

I think Reed may currently be better because of his experience and well..He doesn't suck. He's solid, but I don't think he's really good.

I think Montgomery is more talented and plays strong. And he's also more aggressive on the filed IMHO.

And you don't have to be "dominant" at the WOLB position at rushing the passer. you just have to be disruptive. I think Montgomery could do that in the future. I wouldn't expect him to come in as a rookie and be that guy, but I think in spurts there as a rookie he could be effective. When he knows it's a pass he can get after the QB. Same with Trevardo except their pass rushing ability is about as opposite as can be.

Like I said...I think he's better suited on the strong side, but I think he could play the weakside if needed.

76Texan
05-03-2013, 05:15 PM
If you read Mike Mayock's assessment, you'd know why Montgomery often seemed to be the last one off the ball.

Unless they wanted him to rush the pass rusher (obvious passing situation), the coaches wanted him to key off his blocker (and not the ball).

I'm pretty sure this was done in order for him to read run or pass before he gets off the line.

thunderkyss
05-03-2013, 08:02 PM
Where else is he going to play then? He is not built to play in space where Reed is and the other option is WOLB, which is where our 2012 1st round pick is currently.

Look at the man. He is 6'6 260, his measurables are not that far off from Smith. Just watching him he looks like he is a monster that will only get more bulk and gutt as opposed to an athletic freak.


http://atlantablackstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Terrell+Suggs+AFC+Championship+Baltimore+Ravens+Nz npHDPLrVUl.jpg


I just see him with his hand in the dirt type of player.

He'll have his hand in the dirt on passing downs, just like Barwin, Brooks, Merci, & even Mario did.

thunderkyss
05-03-2013, 08:21 PM
T
I honestly think they drafted two olb's because they realized that their edge players were sub par. Reed and merciless need to show major improvement this year or I'd rotate some other guys in there. We can't have such pathetic pressure from the edges again this season.

I'm looking for both of the rookies we drafted to be involved in the pas rush this year because frankly I don't think the incumbents will do enough in passing situations to keep them off the field.

Agreed, but I don't think we're just talking about rotation players. I think there will be competition & I won't be surprised if one of these two will be starting week 1. Brooks & Whitney have been put on notice.

Travardo probably couldn't start for most teams, but if Wade wants a guy who will rush the passer on every down.... why not? Like you said, Merci hasn't shown us squat either.

76Texan
05-04-2013, 12:24 PM
I rewatched the Florida game last night.
Sometimes in the second quarter, I noticed Montgomery playing with his hands off the dirt as an OLB in the 52.

I did not go back to the beginning, but from that moment on, I counted at least 4 times that he was at OLB; the play went away from him each time.

Also, I noticed him jamming the TE and followed him to the flat on one play as the 43 SDE.
It was a run play to the weak side, away from Montgomery.
The Gators just used the TE to draw him away from the play.
At least, we know that he was able to stay close to the TE in short distance on that play.

HOU-TEX
05-06-2013, 11:26 AM
Anyone following Sam on Twitter? I have found it difficult to understand most of his tweets. A lot of random comments

Mr teX
05-06-2013, 01:03 PM
That's why Montgomery is better over the TE where he can use his strength against the run game and his sacks will come in clean up where his motor takes over.

Williams is the rush linebacker to watch, I think. He's got the speed to do what Mercilus was expected to do.

I think we're going to see Reed and Montgomery used in a situational rotation at the SAM and Mercilus and Williams in a rotation as the Rush LB.


With the drafting of these 2 rush guys early, I think Wade had an eye on versatility and wants to cut down on rotations seeing as how NE had our defensive personnel looking confused and silly on more than 1 occasion in 2 separate games last year.....largely b/c of guys rotating in attempting to match personnel packages.

I think there will be an early rotation at SAM between Williams and Montgomery (i think Mercilus is a lock to start at the other) and the winner of that in preseason will get the nod for the rest of the season. I suspect Montgomery will win this competition b/c of how stout he is against the run.

This way, Wade gets all of his best pass rushers on the field. & with the athleticism all of these guys possess, he won't be forced to sub too much when teams run no huddle, spread and dual TE packages as all of these guys who could potentially be asked to cover are athletic enough to pull it off.

Reed won't be involved in any rotation b/c he'll be kicked inside.....they supposedly already have tape of him playing mlb last year and apparently they must feel comfy with him in that role b/c they haven't exactly ruled it out when reporters ask about it. I think they'll just give him the benefit of the doubt and lean heavily on the reasoning that injuries limited his progression as a pass rusher last year.

76Texan
05-06-2013, 01:14 PM
Watching more game tapes of Montgomery, I saw more occasions with him as a stand-up 52 OLB.

A few occasions when he dropped into the hook/curl zone in coverage.

A saw a couple nice spin moves (much improved from the 2011 version).

Overall, he sets the edge well.

Even though he did play some at 34DE, I agree with Rey and those who see him more like an edge guy for the reasons mentioned above and in other posts.

Oh, and he also shows the smoothness in the ability to dip his shoulder to bend around the edge.
When the Texans let him go all out in pass rush mode, instead of keying off the blockers like he was often asked to do at LSU, this should show up more.

HOU-TEX
05-06-2013, 02:55 PM
Anyone following Sam on Twitter? I have found it difficult to understand most of his tweets. A lot of random comments

See what I mean. Anybody know what this means? lol

Sonic Sam Montgomery ‏@Sonic99_SC 2h
I'm golden call me goldy I want let no one hold me I'm a young man but a OG about to turn me into the old me ��♠�� ��⚡�� Turn Up and Work �� Grr

Dutchrudder
05-06-2013, 02:59 PM
See what I mean. Anybody know what this means? lol

Those odd characters are probably icons from an app like Emoji (iphone alternate keyboard). When sent out to non-iphones it returns garbled characters like that. I didn't confirm it, but that's my hunch.

Rey
05-06-2013, 03:04 PM
See what I mean. Anybody know what this means? lol

I'm golden call me goldy I want let no one hold me I'm a young man but a OG about to turn me into the old me ��♠�� ��⚡�� Turn Up and Work


I'll translate...

He's calling himself golden. Meaning he's untouchable...or top shelf...of cream of the crop...

"want" should be won't. He won't let anyone hold him..."down" or "back" is implied...

He's a young man, but he's an Original Gangster....Basically meaning, yeah I'm a rookie...I'm young...but I've been doing this for a long time.

Turn me into the old me is just him talking shyt...Meaning he's gotten more sophisticated over the years but he might have to go back to his barbaric ways of the past.

Turn up basically means be there and be hype. Go hard. and work means work. Grind.


So altogether it translates something like this:

I'm untouchable. You should call me Mr. Untouchable. I won't let anyone hold me back. Yes I'm young but I have a lot of experience. I'm about to lose my sophisticated ways and turn back into the beast I used to be. Show up hyped up and work.

HOU-TEX
05-06-2013, 03:13 PM
I'm golden call me goldy I want let no one hold me I'm a young man but a OG about to turn me into the old me ��♠�� ��⚡�� Turn Up and Work


I'll translate...

He's calling himself golden. Meaning he's untouchable...or top shelf...of cream of the crop...

"want" should be won't. He won't let anyone hold him..."down" or "back" is implied...

He's a young man, but he's an Original Gangster....Basically meaning, yeah I'm a rookie...I'm young...but I've been doing this for a long time.

Turn me into the old me is just him talking shyt...Meaning he's gotten more sophisticated over the years but he might have to go back to his barbaric ways of the past.

Turn up basically means be there and be hype. Go hard. and work means work. Grind.


So altogether it translates something like this:

I'm untouchable. You should call me Mr. Untouchable. I won't let anyone hold me back. Yes I'm young but I have a lot of experience. I'm about to lose my sophisticated ways and turn back into the beast I used to be. Show up hyped up and work.

Damn

Dutchrudder
05-06-2013, 03:28 PM
I'm golden call me goldy I want let no one hold me I'm a young man but a OG about to turn me into the old me ��♠�� ��⚡�� Turn Up and Work


I'll translate...

He's calling himself golden. Meaning he's untouchable...or top shelf...of cream of the crop...

"want" should be won't. He won't let anyone hold him..."down" or "back" is implied...

He's a young man, but he's an Original Gangster....Basically meaning, yeah I'm a rookie...I'm young...but I've been doing this for a long time.

Turn me into the old me is just him talking shyt...Meaning he's gotten more sophisticated over the years but he might have to go back to his barbaric ways of the past.

Turn up basically means be there and be hype. Go hard. and work means work. Grind.


So altogether it translates something like this:

I'm untouchable. You should call me Mr. Untouchable. I won't let anyone hold me back. Yes I'm young but I have a lot of experience. I'm about to lose my sophisticated ways and turn back into the beast I used to be. Show up hyped up and work.

http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2009/4/13/128841090391768468.jpg

+rep

Rey
05-06-2013, 03:29 PM
http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2009/4/13/128841090391768468.jpg

+rep

LOL...

I was actually thinking about that when I was replying...

I was waiting for someone to post that...

Dutchrudder
05-06-2013, 03:33 PM
LOL...

I was actually thinking about that when I was replying...

I was waiting for someone to post that...

I love Airplane!, one of the best scenes in it...

http://youtu.be/g0j2dVuhr6s?t=59s

76Texan
05-06-2013, 03:44 PM
He sure sounds like a different kind of an Arian Foster.

Lurvinator11
05-06-2013, 04:38 PM
I love Airplane!, one of the best scenes in it...

http://youtu.be/g0j2dVuhr6s?t=59s

One of the funniest movies of our age.

I love how at the end when he keeps coming in and saying, "We're all counting on you" Says it like 5 times, even after the plane has already landed. The little things in the movie is what makes it so funny.

Playoffs
05-06-2013, 05:47 PM
Watching more game tapes of Montgomery...

Can we dispel the taking plays off/not trying hard moniker he's been given?

76Texan
05-06-2013, 06:33 PM
Can we dispel the taking plays off/not trying hard moniker he's been given?

Yes we may.

Also, while watching the Clemson game, I heard that both edge guys were a little banged up coming into the game (even though they had had some rest.)
Then Montgomery went down early in the fourth, wincing.
He came back to play about 3 or 4 snaps, but then they shut him down.

The Clemson offense was more efficient without Montgomery in the D for LSU.

Playoffs
05-06-2013, 06:47 PM
Yes we may.
Cool, thanks. Amazing how internet fiction sticks.

76Texan
05-06-2013, 06:50 PM
Cool, thanks. Amazing how internet fiction sticks.

Lots of noise for sure!

thunderkyss
05-06-2013, 07:24 PM
With the drafting of these 2 rush guys early, I think Wade had an eye on versatility and wants to cut down on rotations seeing as how NE had our defensive personnel looking confused and silly on more than 1 occasion in 2 separate games last year.....largely b/c of guys rotating in attempting to match personnel packages.


If that was his concern, he screwed up big time. He should have been looking for a true LB, not tweener DEs.

No, this is about getting to the QB, making sure Tom Terrific doesn't sit back there & play his game. With the season Watt & Antonio had in 2012, there's no excuse for not getting to the QB more often.

Mr teX
05-07-2013, 10:32 AM
If that was his concern, he screwed up big time. He should have been looking for a true LB, not tweener DEs.

No, this is about getting to the QB, making sure Tom Terrific doesn't sit back there & play his game. With the season Watt & Antonio had in 2012, there's no excuse for not getting to the QB more often.

but if that true lb wasn't there (Andre Brown), you don't reach for him...you grab the next best thing..

Furthermore, Thomas Brady is 1 of the best qb's against the blitz and one of the best qbs in terms of working the pocket. You can't just sit back & blitz all game (didn't work out too well for us last year) and you can't sit back in coverage alone b/c he'll really kill you. It's gotta be some combo of both. I think the versatility both these guys bring will allow us to be much more flexible than we've ever been since wade arrived here.

thunderkyss
05-07-2013, 12:47 PM
I think the versatility both these guys bring will allow us to be much more flexible than we've ever been since wade arrived here.

& where's the versatility these guys bring? They're edge rushers..... period. Montgomery can play the run, but it's at the line. Take these two guys off the LOS & it's a box of chocolate.

Mr teX
05-07-2013, 01:45 PM
& where's the versatility these guys bring? They're edge rushers..... period. Montgomery can play the run, but it's at the line. Take these two guys off the LOS & it's a box of chocolate.


Montgomery has shown he can play the run well. Couple that with Wade and the Texans stating that they will try him out at SAM OLB 1st...that alone implies that they feel he can cover a little bit in short space too. There are also at least a few here who feel like he could be groomed as Antonio Smith's cheaper replacement if he puts on 10-15lbs...not far fetched at all when you consider all variables.

Then you've got Williams who size wise is probably not a good fit for OLB in a 3-4 b/c he may loose a little of his greatest asset as an edge rusher (speed, explosiveness) if you ask him to put poundage on.....& he'll need to do that to play OLB in a 3-4 there's no way around that.

But if you look at him as a potential MLB candidate to pair along side Cush in the 3-4 you can see he's damn identical to Cush from the numbers standpoint when he came out. The Dude can flat out run which lends itself to him being able to cover TE's and backs out of the backfield. The only difference really is what they were asked to do at their respective schools...Williams wasn't really asked to cover a lot at UCONN. I however feel he's athletic enough to get better at that. It may take him a year, but i think he can do it b/c he's a fluid athlete..just going from what i've seen of him .

Obviously both have also shown a penchant for rushing the passer. With the athleticism both these guys possess as described above, we have the potential to get more pass rushers on the field without necessarily sacrificing support in the run game / passing game..which is what we had happening last year. less substituting to accomodate certain looks b/c we can cover it with our base personnel....

Rey
05-07-2013, 02:24 PM
I disagree with almost everything in that post Mr Tex....

Our edge pressure/rushing was anemic last year. These guys were taken to give us more options on the edge.

If they aren't good edge rushers then they'll fall into the Brooks Reed category and people will start wanting to move them to other positions.

Mr teX
05-07-2013, 02:41 PM
I disagree with almost everything in that post Mr Tex....

Our edge pressure/rushing was anemic last year. These guys were taken to give us more options on the edge.

If they aren't good edge rushers then they'll fall into the Brooks Reed category and people will start wanting to move them to other positions.

Lol, i hear ya, i just think that it's a bit deeper than that.

thunderkyss
05-07-2013, 06:14 PM
Just read the interview (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/04/sam-montgomery-effort-was-not-needed-sometimes-against-weaker-teams/#more-36995)..... gotta say I loved this answer


Q: Can you play linebacker?

A: “Yes, and actually when I get done with the combine, I am going to start working on dropbacks, DB drills as well as linebacker drills. As my footwork has increased my confidence has (too), and I think it’s time to take my game to the next level. Hand on the ground, pass rush move, and being an agile linebacker.”

Rey
05-09-2013, 04:30 PM
Wade on the radio a little while ago confirming what I already knew...

The coverage responsibilities of the OLB's are overrated.

Wade's exact words: "If you can rush the passer, you can play OLB"

He talked about how all the guys he's had throughout his career have been converted DE's. Talked about how he's had some guys that weren't all that nimble, but they could rush the passer.

Said the coverage stuff is not that difficult and it's not like they are going to be playing a bunch of man to man over TE's.

I think too many people think of this defense as a traditional 3-4. They want a big NT...OLB's that can cover TE's in man to man...280+ lb DE's....

This has been said before, but this defense is more like a 5-2 when the NT is on the field and a 4-2 or 4-1 when we go to our pass defense formations.

Regardless, the pass coverage duties of the OLB's have been overstated around here and Wade himself said it's not that big of a deal.

The Pencil Neck
05-09-2013, 04:35 PM
Wade on the radio a little while ago confirming what I already knew...

The coverage responsibilities of the OLB's are overrated.

Wade's exact words: "If you can rush the passer, you can play OLB"

He talked about how all the guys he's had throughout his career have been converted DE's. Talked about how he's had some guys that weren't all that nimble, but they could rush the passer.

Said the coverage stuff is not that difficult and it's not like they are going to be playing a bunch of man to man over TE's.

I think too many people think of this defense as a traditional 3-4. They want a big NT...OLB's that can cover TE's in man to man...280+ lb DE's....

This has been said before, but this defense is more like a 5-2 when the NT is on the field and a 4-2 or 4-1 when we go to our pass defense formations.

Regardless, the pass coverage duties of the OLB's have been overstated around here and Wade himself said it's not that big of a deal.

MSR.

That's what I was thinking.

Montgomery's going to be setting the edge, holding the POA, disrupting the TE on passing plays, getting after the QB based on hard work as opposed to speed, and not doing much covering. Those are all things I think he can do and excel at.

thunderkyss
05-09-2013, 06:49 PM
I think too many people think of this defense as a traditional 3-4. They want a big NT...OLB's that can cover TE's in man to man...280+ lb DE's....



I agree.


But we do have 280+ lb DEs.

Rey
05-09-2013, 10:10 PM
I agree.


But we do have 280+ lb DEs.

I was saying all that stuff as a package deal. Meaning each position has those traits to make the defense ideal.

HOU-TEX
05-10-2013, 09:49 AM
I agree.


But we do have 280+ lb DEs.

Yes, they're all over 280. Not by much, but it confirms the 280+ description

Watt - 295
Smith - 284
Jamison - 285
Crick - 287

ObsiWan
05-10-2013, 08:51 PM
http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2009/4/13/128841090391768468.jpg

+rep
absolutely on point!!
Damn you Must Spread Rep!
somebody get him for me.

The Pencil Neck
05-10-2013, 11:14 PM
absolutely on point!!
Damn you Must Spread Rep!
somebody get him for me.

Got him for you.

tru80texan
05-12-2013, 12:08 PM
Yes, they're all over 280. Not by much, but it confirms the 280+ description

Watt - 295
Smith - 284
Jamison - 285
Crick - 287

Delano Johnson has beefed up to 290 lbs. and moved from outside linebacker to defensive end. Johnson is an athletic and powerful player who showed some of that skill set today. On the practice squad last season, Johnson has been a sleeper for us and has a chance to stick with this team if he can get the position down quickly before camp opens.

Looks like you can add Johnson to the DE group now. He was one of those tweener LB's in size, 265lbs, last season & it looks like he made the conversion. I think this could always be an option for Montgomery in the future as well if LB doesn't pan out. Im not a big fan of this pick, but there are options if he can't cut it at LB. Time will tell. I thought Johnson showed some potential last season so it will be interesting to see what he can do at DE & if he can push Jamison & Crick.

AngryNateFTW
05-12-2013, 12:13 PM
I agree.


But we do have 280+ lb DEs.

Didn't realize that we had Delano Johnson bulk up to 290.

Checked back to last season and during the draft he was 266 playing OLB. He's now 290 and playing DE.

Will be interesting to see if he can make the 53 man roster.

AngryNateFTW
05-12-2013, 12:15 PM
Delano Johnson has beefed up to 290 lbs. and moved from outside linebacker to defensive end. Johnson is an athletic and powerful player who showed some of that skill set today. On the practice squad last season, Johnson has been a sleeper for us and has a chance to stick with this team if he can get the position down quickly before camp opens.

Looks like you can add Johnson to the DE group now. He was one of those tweener LB's in size, 265lbs, last season & it looks like he made the conversion. I think this could always be an option for Montgomery in the future as well if LB doesn't pan out. Im not a big fan of this pick, but there are options if he can't cut it at LB. Time will tell. I thought Johnson showed some potential last season so it will be interesting to see what he can do at DE & if he can push Jamison & Crick.

You beat me to it. Oops.

IDEXAN
05-12-2013, 12:22 PM
Check out the radio 610 podcast with the interview of Wade Phillips. He basically said not to worry about Montgomery handling pass coverage as a LB in his defense because requirements in that phase of LB, even the strong-side backer over the TE, are minor and just require dropping out into the flat now and then. So Wades not the least bit concerned about this and if that's the case sounds like a non-issue to me.

thunderkyss
05-12-2013, 01:29 PM
Didn't realize that we had Delano Johnson bulk up to 290.

Checked back to last season and during the draft he was 266 playing OLB. He's now 290 and playing DE.

Will be interesting to see if he can make the 53 man roster.

I'll be looking for him when the preseason starts. 20lbs in a years time.... yeah, it's doable, & it's possible to do it the right way, packing on muscle. But my first thoughts are he's probably gotten a little pudgy.

We'll see.

tru80texan
05-12-2013, 01:49 PM
Check out the radio 610 podcast with the interview of Wade Phillips. He basically said not to worry about Montgomery handling pass coverage as a LB in his defense because requirements in that phase of LB, even the strong-side backer over the TE, are minor and just require dropping out into the flat now and then. So Wades not the least bit concerned about this and if that's the case sounds like a non-issue to me.

I realize Wade is a defensive genius who has made a good living & built a solid reputation as a DC based on his knowledge & information, but it was very apparent last season that our LB's were abused in coverage in certain games last season. Wade may say its not important, but I tend to believe otherwise based on the fact that our LB's were exposed & in certain games Wade had issues stopping the bleeding. If Montgomery is in there & he has issues in coverage, I'm sure the opposition will attempt to find ways to expose it very similar to what NE did by swinging their RB's out wide & isolating our LB on them 1on1 which led to big gains. I think its a bigger issue then Wade leads on imho.

Let's not forget Wade & Herring also said Bradie James could successfully replace DeMeco Ryans. I think they were completely wrong on that assumption. So an occasional misread could happen w/ even them. I'm not a big fan of the Montgomery pick as I said earlier, but time will tell & hopefully he pans out. If not, gain some weight & go to DE is always a good plan B.

thunderkyss
05-12-2013, 07:32 PM
I realize Wade is a defensive genius who has made a good living & built a solid reputation as a DC based on his knowledge & information, but it was very apparent last season that our LB's were abused in coverage in certain games last season. Wade may say its not important, but I tend to believe otherwise based on the fact that our LB's were exposed & in certain games Wade had issues stopping the bleeding. If Montgomery is in there & he has issues in coverage, I'm sure the opposition will attempt to find ways to expose it very similar to what NE did by swinging their RB's out wide & isolating our LB on them 1on1 which led to big gains. I think its a bigger issue then Wade leads on imho.


I'm sure Wade would love to have an All-Pro at every position, however he's in a position now where he's got to start cooking with what he's got. It doesn't do anybody any good for him to say, "Well, the situation isn't ideal, but we've got to do the best with what we've got."

& while I recall the Patriots giving us a hard time, both times, it was more about their hurry up, fast paced, snap it when they aren't looking offense than it was about "catching us" in a bad situation. If we had an Ed Reed out there telling everyone to shut up & get ready, could have been a totally different ball game.

Besides, right after the draft Herring said if he can't handle the coverage assignments, he'll be switched to the weakside.

The Pencil Neck
05-12-2013, 07:39 PM
& while I recall the Patriots giving us a hard time, both times, it was more about their hurry up, fast paced, snap it when they aren't looking offense than it was about "catching us" in a bad situation. If we had an Ed Reed out there telling everyone to shut up & get ready, could have been a totally different ball game.

Exactly.

What bothered me about our defense against the Patriots was that we're so strongly SAM/WILL oriented that whenever the Patriots shifted a TE, we had to shift our front seven. Lots of times, we didn't seem ready when the ball was snapped.

At least, that's what I felt like while watching those games. I have to admit, I haven't gone back and re-watched them.

Rey
05-12-2013, 07:59 PM
I realize Wade is a defensive genius who has made a good living & built a solid reputation as a DC based on his knowledge & information, but it was very apparent last season that our LB's were abused in coverage in certain games last season. Wade may say its not important, but I tend to believe otherwise based on the fact that our LB's were exposed & in certain games Wade had issues stopping the bleeding. If Montgomery is in there & he has issues in coverage, I'm sure the opposition will attempt to find ways to expose it very similar to what NE did by swinging their RB's out wide & isolating our LB on them 1on1 which led to big gains. I think its a bigger issue then Wade leads on imho.

Let's not forget Wade & Herring also said Bradie James could successfully replace DeMeco Ryans. I think they were completely wrong on that assumption. So an occasional misread could happen w/ even them. I'm not a big fan of the Montgomery pick as I said earlier, but time will tell & hopefully he pans out. If not, gain some weight & go to DE is always a good plan B.

If NE goes to a game plan of throwing to their DBS in the flat to exploit olb's that may may not be in coverage, that'd be sweet.

Also, bradie was brought in to be ilb#2. He was forced to try to do more because of injuries.

tru80texan
05-13-2013, 10:53 AM
If NE goes to a game plan of throwing to their DBS in the flat to exploit olb's that may may not be in coverage, that'd be sweet.

Also, bradie was brought in to be ilb#2. He was forced to try to do more because of injuries.

Most could see Bradie James was not what was advertised by Herring & Wade during the preseason which was prior to any injury issues the team had. It was well documented that both coaches were high on James & that he could replace Ryans effectively. That was proven 100% wrong imo. My point was simply that it was a mistake & that just because they say something doesn't necessarily mean it is golden & completely true. We all know that the LB's do need to be able to cover & last season had of examples of what could happen if they cannot. Reed was injured while in coverage & NE did expose our LB coverage by putting their RB's in motion & it happened more then once. Montgomery will need to cover at some point & it seems many realize that because it wouldn't be worth noting or discussing on how he is performing in that area despite Wade & the defensive staff downplaying the issue.

As far as NE, it was pretty clear that they had plenty of options on how to attack & defeat our Texans. Isolating the LB's 1on1 against the RB's in open space was just one. Heck, they even effectively used play action against us which they see in practice regularly. I don't believe Reed alone fixes all of those issues, but he does help IF he can stay healthy.

Rey
05-13-2013, 11:13 AM
Most could see Bradie James was not what was advertised by Herring & Wade during the preseason which was prior to any injury issues the team had. It was well documented that both coaches were high on James & that he could replace Ryans effectively. That was proven 100% wrong imo. My point was simply that it was a mistake & that just because they say something doesn't necessarily mean it is golden & completely true.

Lets be serious here.

Bradie James has never been as good as Demeco Ryans. Why would he be able to be as good as him on the downside of his career?

The problem with Demeco was his playing time and production didn't justify his contract.

Bradie James was brought in to be a second or third ILB. Not the everydown guy he ended up having to be.

As far as NE, it was pretty clear that they had plenty of options on how to attack & defeat our Texans. Isolating the LB's 1on1 against the RB's in open space was just one. Heck, they even effectively used play action against us which they see in practice regularly. I don't believe Reed alone fixes all of those issues, but he does help IF he can stay healthy.

I disagree on your assessment of the OLB's in pass coverage. Yeah, there might be a time or two where they are covering down field, but for the most part it's coverage in the flats. There hasn't been a game where a team abused our OLB's in coverage so I think that concern is misguided...JMO.

The ILB's have far greater pass coverage responsibilities. Those are the guys you see lined up on RB's when they motion out. Those are the guys that are trailing TE's up the seams.

And I don't believe Brooks Reed solves anything at ILB besides being a decent run stopper. I don't believe Brooks Reed will be on this team past his rookie contract unless he shows great improvement because I don't believe he's that good. He's solid against the run, but other than that I don't think he brings much else to the table.

tru80texan
05-13-2013, 02:32 PM
Lets be serious here.

Bradie James has never been as good as Demeco Ryans. Why would he be able to be as good as him on the downside of his career?

The problem with Demeco was his playing time and production didn't justify his contract.

Bradie James was brought in to be a second or third ILB. Not the everydown guy he ended up having to be.



I disagree on your assessment of the OLB's in pass coverage. Yeah, there might be a time or two where they are covering down field, but for the most part it's coverage in the flats. There hasn't been a game where a team abused our OLB's in coverage so I think that concern is misguided...JMO.

The ILB's have far greater pass coverage responsibilities. Those are the guys you see lined up on RB's when they motion out. Those are the guys that are trailing TE's up the seams.

And I don't believe Brooks Reed solves anything at ILB besides being a decent run stopper. I don't believe Brooks Reed will be on this team past his rookie contract unless he shows great improvement because I don't believe he's that good. He's solid against the run, but other than that I don't think he brings much else to the table.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bradie%20jamrs%20signs%20with%20texans&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDMQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nfl.com%2Fnews%2Fstory%2F0900 0d5d82962e21%2Farticle%2Fhouston-texans-defense-counting-on-lb-bradie-james&ei=DSuRUdOREdHtqQGO14CYDA&usg=AFQjCNE9Ir0zzQ4u0rNdGPskztKLUwpuLg&bvm=bv.46340616,d.eWU
The link above provides what Herring had to say after the acquisition of James & what he & "others" felt about James compared to DeMeco.

."I don't mind throwing it on the table, we're pretty pleased with picking Bradie (James) up, because we feel like we gained back what we lost with DeMeco leaving, and then some, to be honest with you," Texans linebackers coach Reggie Herring said Tuesday at OTAs. "At the end of the day, whatever we lost with DeMeco, we feel very confident that we've regained it with Bradie." Here's the quote for those not wanting to read the whole story.

Im being real, it seems members of the Texans coaching staff...not so much. I realize you are saying James ended playing a bigger role then expected, but he was liability BEFORE Cushing's injury & after the injury it only magnified his shortcomings. I don't believe the fall off would have been that great had Ryans been the option in the middle as opposed to James. All I'm saying is that you can't necessarily buy into everything that the staff says & assume it is completely accurate of forthcoming. Herring felt James was just as good as Ryans & obviously you & I disagreed with that, but that didn't stop him from saying it & many believing it. I believe this is similar to the downplaying of our LB's needing to be able cover. Just for the record, I'm well aware of the fact that Ryans role didn't justify his pay. I never disputed that, I simply said that just because Herring & the coaches suggested he was replaced adequately by James doesn't mean it was true or accurate.

We will have to agree to disagree as far the LB's having issues in coverage because I clearly remember them giving up big gains in more then one game. Which included coverage by the ILB's & OLB's to be honest. In fact, thats how Reed was injured. Coverage is a responsibility of the LB's & if they are poor at recognizing their responsibilities & applying coverage it will be evident & exposed IMO. Regardless of the down playing by the coaches. My comparison of James to Ryans was simply pointing out the fact that you might have to take some of the things that are said, even by coaches, w/ a grain of salt.

I also believe we will have to agree to disagree on Reed. He is very young & has hardly fulfilled all of his potential in 2 seasons IMO. Judging him this early seems a bit shortsighted IMO. He does play the run well & is decent in coverage. He still has room to grow, but has shown some decent potential & does many things well. Will he be an All Pro? Probably not, but he is solid in many areas & should get better. I think he will develop into a good piece to the puzzle that eventually won't cost an arm & a leg to keep around & keep this team moving in the right direction IMO.

infantrycak
05-13-2013, 02:41 PM
The link above provides what Herring had to say after the acquisition of James & what he & "others" felt about James compared to DeMeco. Im being real, it seems members of the Texans coaching staff...not so much.

Herring was talking about James' familiarity with the system and the reads to be made. He was not talking about overall ability.

tru80texan
05-13-2013, 03:01 PM
Herring was talking about James' familiarity with the system and the reads to be made. He was not talking about overall ability.

It could be spun that way, I guess. But I don't necessarily believe that. Saying you gained more from an acquisition compared to what you lost tends to imply as a whole as opposed to only certain aspects. James' knowledge was suppose to offset his declining physical abilities. Obviously his knowledge wasn't enough as he struggled & is now unemployed.

Mr teX
05-13-2013, 04:41 PM
I tend to agree with tru80texan...I hear what Wade is saying about his system but color me skeptical of his optimism.

Most teams struggle defensively when facing teams who run spread type formations / offenses. But b/c his defenses rely so heavily on pressuring the qb and him not asking his OLB's to cover a ton is the chief reason his defenses really struggle when we face spread offenses. This is largely b/c he has to adjust from his 5-2 aggressive pressure look to a less aggressive package. See the NO game in 2011 and of course the GB and NE games from 2012. All those teams spread you out and force you to adjust and each of those games we gave up 30+ points......fairly quickly and fairly easily. That my friends is a trend....a bad trend.


Sure you can say "well, NO, GB and NE each have top 5 qbs and that was really the difference.." & to that i say "well, true...but that's kinda the point..."

If we struggle with terrible teams like JAX and DET that have below average to mediocore qbs that run spread type packages the majority of the time, we basically have next to 0 shot against teams who run those same spread type offenses and have elite qb play. If Wade (and Kubiak for that matter) insist on continuing to do what they do against mediocore teams then we'll most assuredly continued to get shred by big plays on defense and get shut down on offense at the most inopportune times. Good qbs and good teams simply won't allow you to do that...at least not as often as you may do it against bad teams.

We are now at that stage in our development where we are trying to ascend from good to great. And from here on out, we're only going to be able to do that by beating the top teams with top qbs. Adjustments need to be made & i just don't think Wade or Kubiak truly understand that.

Rey
05-13-2013, 05:12 PM
I tend to agree with tru80texan...I hear what Wade is saying about his system but color me skeptical of his optimism.

Most teams struggle defensively when facing teams who run spread type formations / offenses. But b/c his defenses rely so heavily on pressuring the qb and him not asking his OLB's to cover a ton is the chief reason his defenses really struggle when we face spread offenses. This is largely b/c he has to adjust from his 5-2 aggressive pressure look to a less aggressive package. See the NO game in 2011 and of course the GB and NE games from 2012. All those teams spread you out and force you to adjust and each of those games we gave up 30+ points......fairly quickly and fairly easily. That my friends is a trend....a bad trend.


Couldn't disagree with both of you more.

When wade goes to his packages to defend against the pass the OLB's drop down and just become regular ol' edge rushing DE's. The OLb's have very little to do with pass coverage other than providing pressure.

The reason we struggled against those teams is because 1) they have great QB's and it's not unusual for them to play well 2) our edge pass rush has not been all that good 3) we've had trouble covering in the middle area of the field

The Pencil Neck
05-13-2013, 05:25 PM
Couldn't disagree with both of you more.

When wade goes to his packages to defend against the pass the OLB's drop down and just become regular ol' edge rushing DE's. The OLb's have very little to do with pass coverage other than providing pressure.

The reason we struggled against those teams is because 1) they have great QB's and it's not unusual for them to play well 2) our edge pass rush has not been all that good 3) we've had trouble covering in the middle area of the field

And 4) our offense didn't keep up and keep the other offenses on the sideline.

Rey
05-13-2013, 05:28 PM
And 4) our offense didn't keep up and keep the other offenses on the sideline.

A little bit of that too...

Mr teX
05-14-2013, 11:26 AM
Couldn't disagree with both of you more.

When wade goes to his packages to defend against the pass the OLB's drop down and just become regular ol' edge rushing DE's. The OLb's have very little to do with pass coverage other than providing pressure.

The reason we struggled against those teams is because 1) they have great QB's and it's not unusual for them to play well 2) our edge pass rush has not been all that good 3) we've had trouble covering in the middle area of the field

& again the bolded is part of the issue. He's hell bent on sending his OLB's to pressure the qb no matter what & you're not going to get away with that against competent qbs. You've got to play much more cautious and pick your spots b/c that ultra-agressiveness against spread type offenses/formations makes it hella easy for qb's to read the chain reaction..... especially if you run a ton of man coverage like we do.

You're right, we had issues covering in the middle of the field in those games...particularly in the NE games..However it was largely b/c the 2 guys that are most responsible for covering parts of the middle of the field (MLB, safety) were more often than not busy covering recieving threats 1 on 1 at the LOS or in the flats....voiding their normal area of coverage in the process and opening us up to big plays deep. That, or they were being put in terrible positions coverage wise when it might've made more sense for the play side OLB to take some of that coverage responsibility and drop back in a zone. At least then you don't get a Daryl Sharpton getting shaken out of his jock by a Wes Welker coming out of the backfield running a jerk route
But b/c he doesn't ask his OLB's to do much covering, someone has to pick up the slack.

Either way, Lots of the holes in Wade's defenses are created b/c he doesn't lean on his OLB's enough in coverage. I also doubt we'd run as much man as we do if he leaned more on his OLB's in coverage.

Rey
05-14-2013, 11:47 AM
& again the bolded is part of the issue. He's hell bent on sending his OLB's to pressure the qb no matter what & you're not going to get away with that against competent qbs. You've got to play much more cautious and pick your spots b/c that ultra-agressiveness against spread type offenses/formations makes it hella easy for qb's to read the chain reaction..... especially if you run a ton of man coverage like we do.


I have no idea what you're talking about. 7 guys in coverage with 4 rushing is standard. Are you saying Wade should employ a three man rush and let QB's get all the time they need to read the field?

What is ultra aggressive about sending 4?

76Texan
05-14-2013, 12:15 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about. 7 guys in coverage with 4 rushing is standard. Are you saying Wade should employ a three man rush and let QB's get all the time they need to read the field?

What is ultra aggressive about sending 4?

The Texans do send a 5-man blitz often (perhaps among the most in the league); however, against the spread, they would be most likely in nickel or in dime (no OLB).

The point about the OLB being in coverage becomes moot.

The Pencil Neck
05-14-2013, 12:25 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about. 7 guys in coverage with 4 rushing is standard. Are you saying Wade should employ a three man rush and let QB's get all the time they need to read the field?

What is ultra aggressive about sending 4?

I think he's talking about always sending 5: the two OLBs and the three down lineman.

Rey
05-14-2013, 12:28 PM
The Texans do send a 5-man blitz often (perhaps among the most in the league); however, against the spread, they would be most likely in nickel or in dime (no OLB).

The point about the OLB being in coverage becomes moot.

Which is what I was trying to convey in my original post that he quoted.

I think Mr Tex is confused about the Texans defensive formations against certain offensive formations.

Mr teX
05-14-2013, 12:30 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about. 7 guys in coverage with 4 rushing is standard. Are you saying Wade should employ a three man rush and let QB's get all the time they need to read the field?

What is ultra aggressive about sending 4?

Teams that spread you out don't need a whole lot of time to read the field. Adding 1 more guy to rush the passer many times doesn't make a ton of difference..So yeah, at times just rush 3 and cover everything else up if for nothing else to change it up. A coverage sack is just as good as a pressured sack. Plus when you've got guys with big time motors like Watt and Smith..1 of them is bound to comes free.

You're only looking at being aggressive in terms of how many people he sends after the qb...i consider playing press man coverage to be aggressive...& when you consider that we predominantly play press man...its ultra aggressive imo..i don't think any other team plays man as much as we do.

Rey
05-14-2013, 12:38 PM
Teams that spread you out don't need a whole lot of time to read the field. Adding 1 more guy to rush the passer many times doesn't make a ton of difference..So yeah, at times just rush 3 and cover everything else up if for nothing else to change it up. A coverage sack is just as good as a pressured sack. Plus when you've got guys with big time motors like Watt and Smith..1 of them is bound to comes free.

You're only looking at being aggressive in terms of how many people he sends after the qb...i consider playing press man coverage to be aggressive...& when you consider that we predominantly play press man...its ultra aggressive imo..i don't think any other team plays man as much as we do.

I'll end the conversation here Mr Tex. I have not said anything about what my idea of aggressive defense is so you're making stuff up.

As far as rushing 3 instead of 4, well whatever.

Mr teX
05-14-2013, 12:52 PM
I'll end the conversation here Mr Tex. I have not said anything about what my idea of aggressive defense is so you're making stuff up.

As far as rushing 3 instead of 4, well whatever.

lol, i didn't say you said that....but based on what you mentioned in your post (how is sending 4 ultra-aggressive?) yes, i did assume you thought i only meant aggressiveness in terms of how many he sends after the qb when in fact i'm talking about the defense as a whole...my apologies.

Don't tap out just yet homie.:ant:

76Texan
05-14-2013, 01:08 PM
The thing is, according to an article I just read, the Texans were best in the league entering week 14 (QBR against) with the blitz.

I think it could be argued both ways as Brady's past records seem to indicate that he's been more successful against the blitz.

I think everybody would prefer not to have to rely on the blitz too much.
In 2012, Wade probably think we didn't have enough good pass rushers, so he chose to go with the blitz more.

The results against the Pats could have been better if the execution of the scheme was better (fewer mis-assignments or late to assignment.)

I could be playing devil advocate here; but I think either approach could work.
The Texans just need consistency in their assignment.

Hopefully, the new guys will add some value to the pass rush.
(Including Ed Reed and Swearinger in the back end).
A healthy JJo and McCain could also help, along with a more experience Harris.

thunderkyss
05-14-2013, 01:26 PM
I think he's talking about always sending 5: the two OLBs and the three down lineman.

We wouldn't be sending 5 if one of the rush ends can get home.

Mr teX
05-14-2013, 01:36 PM
The thing is, according to an article I just read, the Texans were best in the league entering week 14 (QBR against) with the blitz.

I think it could be argued both ways as Brady's past records seem to indicate that he's been more successful against the blitz.

I think everybody would prefer not to have to rely on the blitz too much.
In 2012, Wade probably think we didn't have enough good pass rushers, so he chose to go with the blitz more.

The results against the Pats could have been better if the execution of the scheme was better (fewer mis-assignments or late to assignment.)

I could be playing devil advocate here; but I think either approach could work.
The Texans just need consistency in their assignment.

Hopefully, the new guys will add some value to the pass rush.
(Including Ed Reed and Swearinger in the back end).
A healthy JJo and McCain could also help, along with a more experience Harris.

"Brady hasn't seen this much man in a long time.." - Jon Gruden in the monday night game against NE.

You couple the above statement with sending more than your base down linemen too regularly...you're gonna be in trouble against those type of guys.

Mr teX
05-14-2013, 01:42 PM
We wouldn't be sending 5 if one of the rush ends can get home.

yeah, but those ends need time to get home....& with the way NE's recievers were running wide open, not even JJ could get there in time before the ball was already gone. Go back and watch that 1st NE game....check out how wide open those guys were running.

Sending more guys only opens the field up more

76Texan
05-14-2013, 02:00 PM
"Brady hasn't seen this much man in a long time.." - Jon Gruden in the monday night game against NE.

You couple the above statement with sending more than your base down linemen too regularly...you're gonna be in trouble against those type of guys.

Well, the Texans did blitz a little less in the play-off game.

Basically, Brady was effective regardless whether the Texans blitzed or not.

:toropalm:

Mr teX
05-14-2013, 03:35 PM
Well, the Texans did blitz a little less in the play-off game.

Basically, Brady was effective regardless whether the Texans blitzed or not.

:toropalm:

I agree, I just can't see how people think bringing in more edge rushers is going to change much of anything.....Even if Williams and Montgomery are better overall edge rushers it won't mean much if Wade doesn't fundamentally change his approach to these types of offenses / Qbs.

Señor Stan
05-14-2013, 03:51 PM
I agree, I just can't see how people think bringing in more edge rushers is going to change much of anything.....Even if Williams and Montgomery are better overall edge rushers it won't mean much if Wade doesn't fundamentally change his approach to these types of offenses / Qbs.

The Texans were being caught out of position / not prepared for the pace of the Patriots offense. With Cushing back in the middle and Ed Reed in the secondary I fully expect the Texans to be more able to make better defensive calls and adjustments pre-snap.

thunderkyss
05-14-2013, 05:27 PM
"Brady hasn't seen this much man in a long time.." - Jon Gruden in the monday night game against NE.


You can't always believe everything you hear. I respect Jon Gruden, but our playing man coverage was not the problem... since we play a hybrid man coverage on most downs anyway. The two guys on the corners, they almost always play man... because they can.

I agree, I just can't see how people think bringing in more edge rushers is going to change much of anything.....Even if Williams and Montgomery are better overall edge rushers it won't mean much if Wade doesn't fundamentally change his approach to these types of offenses / Qbs.

I simply don't believe that. We need to get better at what we do, not fundamentally change what works. & yes, we need better (not more) pass rushers to get their licks in on Brady. If we had two edge rushers that were better than the two we trotted out last season, we wouldn't have to blitz.

That's the fundamental you are refusing to see. Forget that we play a 3-4, when we get into passing situations, it's a 4-3. You won't be seeing Justin Tuck or Jared Allen dropping into coverage as much as you'll see our edge rushers drop into coverage. Those teams will drop a LB & bring in another DB.

We'll lose the NT/LB & add a DB. Again, if you've got Derrell Revis & Antonio Cromartie outside..... you play man. We don't have Revis & Cromartie, but our two are pretty damn good.

Replace Bradie James with Brian Cushing. Replace Quentin Demps with Ed Reed. Shilo Keo with Dj Swearinger. Get an offense that can stay on the field against sub-par defenses in the play-offs, and offense that can score against sub-par defenses & we've made all the fundamental changes we need to.

76Texan
05-15-2013, 11:48 AM
Grade A
A very late third round pick should be expected to become at least a good rotational player with some upside to become a starter.
Montgomery certainly has the upside to become a starter; thus the A grade.