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View Full Version : The Wonder(lic) of top WR prospects and other pass catcher tidbits


Playoffs
04-18-2013, 02:16 PM
Bob McGinn: Tennessee's Cordarrelle Patterson has plenty of talent and question marks (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/tennessees-patterson-with-plenty-of-talent-and-question-marks-rt9i5uj-203524771.html)

snipped
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C.O. Brocato of the Tennessee Titans, the grand old man of NFL scouting, said IQ is a vital part of the wide-receiver equation.

"They say it's not but I think it is," Brocato said. "They say just put a guy out there with speed and let him go. Where is he going to go? If he can't learn, how is he going to play?"

Therein lies the rub, particularly with Patterson. In the last two weeks, scouts from 10 teams expressed varying degrees of reservation whether he'll be up to the coming challenge.

"Mentally, it's going to be a project," one personnel man said. "Running routes, he doesn't know how to do any of that stuff. You may have to keep it simple for him, but this is football. It's not building a super glider or anything."

According to several teams, Patterson wasn't impressive during interviews at the combine. He also scored 11 on the 50-question Wonderlic intelligence test, which caused more consternation.

"You're not expecting receivers to be in the 30s," an AFC personnel director said. "But you've got to have some type of intelligence to pick up the system.

"Toward the end of the year, they started to go away from running Patterson down the field on routes and gave him the ball on reverses and screens, even as a halfback at times. That starts to put a question mark in your head. Why?

"Well, there's reasons, and it's just not being as proficient with his route-running and not having the ability to make adjustments during the game."

Austin's test score was even lower at 7, but the majority of scouts expect him to learn a playbook without a major hitch.

"He's not a quick study and it will take him a little time," another personnel director said. "He will work at it. He cares greatly about it."

Justin Hunter, Patterson's teammate, scored just 12, but scouts consider him less of a risk mentally.

Patterson's journey to this point was unconventional, to say the least.

After spending time at two junior colleges and playing the 2010 and '11 seasons at Hutchinson (Kan.) College, Patterson was admitted to Tennessee in July. Six months later, he was declaring for the draft a year early.
...
"There's a huge correlation between experience playing the position in college and success in the NFL," one scout said. "Intelligence and work ethic are probably the two most important qualities because it's extremely tough."

Over the past decade, 10 wide receivers that declared at least a year early and were drafted in the first two rounds can be categorized as busts.

With their Wonderlic scores, they are Jon Baldwin (14), Darrius Heyward-Bey (14), Devin Thomas (23), Malcolm Kelly (22), James Hardy (14), Dwayne Jarrett (14), Chad Jackson (15), Troy Williamson (21), Reggie Williams (17) and Charles Rogers (10).

Meanwhile, intelligence is deemed a plus for Keenan Allen (19) and Robert Woods (23), the next-best receivers behind Patterson and Austin.

"Allen and Woods just know how to play," an NFC personnel director said. "You throw them in, they're going to run the right route, get open and catch the ball. "You can run fast 40s and be this and that, but if you don't know how to play it just kind of goes out the window."

The Journal Sentinel asked 16 personnel people to list their top five wide receivers and top four tight ends. At wide receiver, a first-place vote was worth five points, a second was worth four and so on.

Patterson (seven firsts) led with 62 points, followed by Austin, 60 (six firsts); Allen, 40 (one first); Woods, 25; DeAndre Hopkins, 24 (one first); Hunter, 16; Terrance Williams, five; and Stedman Bailey and Quinton Patton, each four.

At tight end, Tyler Eifert led the way with 63 points (15 firsts), followed by Zach Ertz, 40 (one first); Gavin Escobar, 22; Travis Kelce, 14; Vance McDonald and Jordan Reed, eight; Nick Kasa and Mychal Rivera, two; and Chris Gragg, one.

The Pencil Neck
04-18-2013, 02:25 PM
Take Patterson and Austin off the Texan's Draft Board. And slide Hunter way down.

76Texan
04-18-2013, 02:35 PM
I read that Harvin got a 12, and Hakeem Nicks got an 11.

Playoffs
04-18-2013, 02:38 PM
I wish they'd have posted Hopkins' Wonderlic. Not concerned about it, but curious.

Reading between the lines, Patterson gets hammered in the piece imo: Austin scored horribly, but he'll "get it" because he "cares deeply about it".

But then the personnel men rank him highest? Some bullshatting going on somewhere.

76Texan
04-18-2013, 02:41 PM
Randy Moss and Marvin Harrison got 12, Reggie Wayne scored 13, and Andre Johnson scored 14.

Marino, Bradshaw, and McNabb scored 15 as QBs.

76Texan
04-18-2013, 02:45 PM
A J green scored a perfect 10, LOL!

The Pencil Neck
04-18-2013, 02:45 PM
Randy Moss and Marvin Harrison got 12, Reggie Wayne scored 13, and Andre Johnson scored 14.

Marino, Bradshaw, and McNabb scored 15 as QBs.

13+ for a WR doesn't bother me. 10-12 is iffy. <10 is "Danger, Will Robinson!"

I think Kubes prefers smarter guys.

76Texan
04-18-2013, 02:47 PM
H m, a different source had Andre Johnson at 23 and Marvin Harrison at 19

The Pencil Neck
04-18-2013, 02:49 PM
H m, a different source had Andre Johnson at 23 and Marvin Harrison at 19

I like that one better. :)

76Texan
04-18-2013, 02:59 PM
Donald Lee had a 7 and he played some 7-9 years in the NFL.
Bennie Jopru's 36 couldn't save him from freak accidents. :toropalm:

Playoffs
04-18-2013, 03:39 PM
Take Patterson and Austin off the Texan's Draft Board. And slide Hunter way down.

My take away was Tavon stays same, Patterson drops, and perhaps Hunter rises past him.

Hunter is most often referred to as having big upside lately, in what I'm reading/hearing.

srrono
04-18-2013, 03:46 PM
I am thinking that speed and hands are what teams look at more than the test. I mean lets face it when Austin is going over the middle and is about to make a catch I seriously doubt P.Willis is going to ask him a math question.

76Texan
04-18-2013, 04:00 PM
In the first 8 games, Patterson got 16 carries.
In the last four games, he got 9.
That's 0.25 carry per game more than his average.

I wonder what Wonderlic score that "director" got on his test. LOL

76Texan
04-18-2013, 04:41 PM
In the first 8 games, Patterson caught 27 passes for 366 yards.

In the last 4 games, he caught 19 for 412 yards (prorated to 38 and 814 yards - for 8 games.) The 412 yards in 4 games surpassed the 366 yards in the first 8 games.

If you want to take out 3 games against patsies, Patterson caught 22 for 275 yards in the first six; he caught 10 for 193 yards in his last three games (prorated to 20 and 386 yards.)

I think that particular director has been smoking weed or something, LOL!

mussop
04-18-2013, 05:31 PM
In the first 8 games, Patterson caught 27 passes for 366 yards.

In the last 4 games, he caught 19 for 412 yards (prorated to 38 and 814 yards - for 8 games.) The 412 yards in 4 games surpassed the 366 yards in the first 8 games.

If you want to take out 3 games against patsies, Patterson caught 22 for 275 yards in the first six; he caught 10 for 193 yards in his last three games (prorated to 20 and 386 yards.)

I think that particular director has been smoking weed or something, LOL!
Yep it's called smoke and mirrors. Yeh this guy sucks, too big of a risk don't take him........... Whispers......suckers!

76Texan
04-18-2013, 05:48 PM
I just finished rewatching the first quarter of their tenth game of the season (Missouri), and Patterson was doing everything from returning KOs, running several deep routes, running for a TD, and even completing a pass to Hunter.

All that in one quarter, LOL!

P.S. - I still hate Tyler Bray. Man, if only he has Keenum's brain.

The Pencil Neck
04-18-2013, 05:49 PM
I am thinking that speed and hands are what teams look at more than the test. I mean lets face it when Austin is going over the middle and is about to make a catch I seriously doubt P.Willis is going to ask him a math question.

Yeah, but the problem is that if you've got an offense where the WR has to make reads and alter his route on the defense, he's got to be smart enough to read the defense. At least a little.

It's like with the Cowboys last year where Dez Bryant reads one defense and Romo reads another and Romo throws a pick-six because they weren't on the same page. If I've got a guy who's extremely talented but dumb as rocks and a guy who's somewhat talented but smart as hell and I've got a complicated offense, I'm drafting the smarter guy.

htownfan32
04-18-2013, 05:57 PM
If the score is anything to go by, I have a creeping suspicion that Keenan Allen and Robert Woods are sitting at the top of our WR list.

If Allen goes early, I bet we trade back into early 2nd, nab Woods, and get an extra 3rd or something.

Playoffs
04-18-2013, 06:01 PM
Trashed hotel room occupants revealed .... ruh-roh, my boy...

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 6m
A trashed hotel room at Indy scouting combine that Yahoo reported on belonged to Clemson WR DeAndre Hopkins and Rutgers WR Mark Harrison.

76Texan
04-18-2013, 06:01 PM
I'll take Marino, Bradshaw, and Jim Kelly any day over Romo's 37, and especially Gabbert's 42, LOL!

76Texan
04-18-2013, 06:03 PM
Trashed hotel room occupants revealed .... ruh-roh, my boy...

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 6m

Did they leave good tips?

badboy
04-18-2013, 06:16 PM
Some of athleticism is muscle memory and repitition. Some people are just born knowing what to do. We see that frequently with running backs. Following a block is important but knowing when to cut or reverse is also. Plus having the burners to kick in...

The Pencil Neck
04-18-2013, 07:26 PM
I'll take Marino, Bradshaw, and Jim Kelly any day over Romo's 37, and especially Gabbert's 42, LOL!

For me, it's like most other things, you have to have a certain minimum level of something.

To be a musician, you have to have a certain minimal level of skill. Anything over that level of skill is gravy but it's not going to make you any more successful. But below that minimal level of skill and you can't play well enough for people to get past how bad you suck.

With a football player, he's got to have some minimal level of intelligence depending on the position he plays and the demands of his particular team's playbook. In some offenses, a WR can have a <10 Wonderlic score and I'm not going to be worried about it; in ours, I want him to be smarter than that.

With a QB, if he's got a <10 wonderlic, I'm not expecting him to be able to be successful at all. But anything over a 10-13 and he's probably OK. BUt if he's WAY over that, it's just like the musician thing, it's probably not going to make him any more successful because his brain's ability to learn and do basic processing is no longer his limiting attribute.

Playoffs
04-18-2013, 07:35 PM
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
A trashed hotel room at Indy scouting combine that Yahoo reported on belonged to Clemson WR DeAndre Hopkins and Rutgers WR Mark Harrison.

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
NFL sources said they are convinced that Rutgers wide receiver Mark Harrison is not responsible for the trashed hotel room.

mussop
04-19-2013, 05:19 AM
For me, it's like most other things, you have to have a certain minimum level of something.

To be a musician, you have to have a certain minimal level of skill. Anything over that level of skill is gravy but it's not going to make you any more successful. But below that minimal level of skill and you can't play well enough for people to get past how bad you suck.

With a football player, he's got to have some minimal level of intelligence depending on the position he plays and the demands of his particular team's playbook. In some offenses, a WR can have a <10 Wonderlic score and I'm not going to be worried about it; in ours, I want him to be smarter than that.

With a QB, if he's got a <10 wonderlic, I'm not expecting him to be able to be successful at all. But anything over a 10-13 and he's probably OK. BUt if he's WAY over that, it's just like the musician thing, it's probably not going to make him any more successful because his brain's ability to learn and do basic processing is no longer his limiting attribute.


The wonder lick is a wast of time when it comes to the NFL (http://deadspin.com/5899735/why-does-the-nfl-still-use-the-wonderlic).

Dr. Brian Hoffman co-authored a 2009 study with Brian D. Lyons in collaboration with California State University (Fresno) and Towson University. The Lyons Study was presented at the 20th and 21st annual Meetings of the Society for Industrial and Organizational Psychology. This 43-page study of 762 NFL players over three draft classes comes to two distinct conclusions:

1) NFL performance on the football field was only found to have a statistically significant correlation with Wonderlic scores among two positions: Tight end and defensive back. Correlations were statistically negligible across all other positions. (Yes, even QB.) In other words, with the exception of TEs and DBs, a player's Wonderlic score (high or low) gave no predictable projection for their eventual productivity as an NFL player. It was worthless.

2)Tight ends and defensive backs showed a (significant) negative correlation.

The Pencil Neck
04-19-2013, 12:48 PM
The wonder lick is a wast of time when it comes to the NFL (http://deadspin.com/5899735/why-does-the-nfl-still-use-the-wonderlic).

Dr. Brian Hoffman co-authored a 2009 study with Brian D. Lyons in collaboration with California State University (Fresno) and Towson University. The Lyons Study was presented at the 20th and 21st annual Meetings of the Society for Industrial and Organizational Psychology. This 43-page study of 762 NFL players over three draft classes comes to two distinct conclusions:

1) NFL performance on the football field was only found to have a statistically significant correlation with Wonderlic scores among two positions: Tight end and defensive back. Correlations were statistically negligible across all other positions. (Yes, even QB.) In other words, with the exception of TEs and DBs, a player's Wonderlic score (high or low) gave no predictable projection for their eventual productivity as an NFL player. It was worthless.

2)Tight ends and defensive backs showed a (significant) negative correlation.

Interesting but that doesn't totally repudiate what I said, though.

If you're looking for a pure correlation between the score and the performance, then you're expecting higher scores to out-perform lower scores. And that's not what I said.

There should be a lower limit beneath which performance should tail off. Over that limit and I'd expect performance to flat line as other factors came into play and that's not really at-odds with what that article said. AND I'd expect different teams approaches/systems to prefer smarter players while some teams approaches/systems would prefer more instinctive players.

Use some other attribute as an example: 40 time. Everybody pretty much agrees that the 40 time is bad indicator of a good football player. You can be the fastest guy in the world but if you can't catch, you're not going to be a very good receiver. You can be the fastest guy in the world, but if you can't tackle, you're not going to be a very good linebacker.

But there's a lower limit. If you're too slow, it doesn't matter how good your hands are. If you're too slow, it doesn't matter if you're a great tackler. Because once you're below that speed limit, you're useless. If your speed is just above that limit, however, and you're good to go.

It's the same with intelligence. If you're just too damned stupid, you're performace is going to tail off. But as long as your intellect is above a certain point, you're good to go and other attributes become your limiting factor.

Insideop
04-19-2013, 05:53 PM
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
NFL sources said they are convinced that Rutgers wide receiver Mark Harrison is not responsible for the trashed hotel room.

Saw this in the chron; http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/04/two-wide-receiver-prospects-accused-of-defacing-hotel-room/

“Luckily, thank God, my agent got my flight booked early or it really would’ve been questionable if I did [it] or not,” Hopkins said. “My agent got my flight booked early. He told me hurry up. I got done before Mark Harrison, so I was already packed. I already took a shower and packed and everything. Mark came in and we spoke for at least 20 minutes about the combine. Then the bellman came in and helped me get my bags out. And I left. That’s, honestly, all I can say.

“If you didn’t do anything then you have nothing to prove. You know, it’s just mind-boggling that someone would do that. I say check the cameras, that’s the best way that you’re going to get the answer. Check the cameras and check the timing of everything.”

Hmmm! :hmmm: Somebody aint tellin the truth!

76Texan
04-20-2013, 12:36 PM
What I want to know is how did they clear Harrison?

Playoffs
04-20-2013, 01:00 PM
What I want to know is how did they clear Harrison?

This is becoming a whodunit now. http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/celebre/holmes.gif My curiosity is increasing, which isn't a good thing for the two.

You'd think if either left a third party in the room or gave a card-key to a third party, they'd be singing.

I've also seen descriptions that could be the result of a toilet overflow versus "feces smeared on the walls".

leebigeztx
04-22-2013, 02:37 PM
Wonderlick has 0 to do with football intelligence.

Seņor Stan
04-22-2013, 02:59 PM
How smart do you have to be to block? I mean, this is the #2WR we are talking about here...

Sincerely,

Gary Kubiak