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View Full Version : [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense


ASidd_1990
04-08-2013, 02:59 PM
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/57532/hey-dont-f-this-up-the-houston-texans-outdated-offense

When the Texansí season ended in New England, where Houston got its second beatdown in as many trips to Foxborough, most of the panic was directed at Matt Schaub. Yes, Schaub threw for 343 yards ó one less than Tom Brady ó but it required 51 attempts to get there. In todayís NFL, teams just donít win Super Bowls without their best player residing under center, and although Schaub has put together his share of solid years in Houston, he isnít the type of quarterback who wins in January. Or at least thatís how the thinking seemed to go.

That opinion of Schaub may be true, but in evaluating how far apart the Patriots and Texans actually were, the more telling difference was among those getting the throws, rather than those making them. New England spent almost the entire game shorthanded (as the Pats had been for the most of the year) after Rob Gronkowski reinjured his forearm. The typical Patriots still had their impact ó Wes Welker had eight catches for 131 yards, and Aaron Hernandez added six for 85 ó but it was the output of a lesser name that said everything anyone needs to know about the New England offense. For the entire regular season, Shane Vereen had eight catches for 179 yards. He totaled about half that against Houston, hauling in five passes for 83 yards, two of them for touchdowns. Vereen lined up all over the formation, and New England used the reserve running back to constantly exploit the coverage deficiencies of Houstonís inside linebackers. It was the exact type of opponent-specific game planning that has made the Patriots a problem for the past decade.

Itís also the type of game planning not often seen from the Texans. Coming into that playoff game against New England, the book on Houston was simple: ďGet a lead and the game is over.Ē Offensively, the Texans have a specific plan, and against most teams they execute that plan well. The run game wasnít nearly as effective last year as it had been in years past (mostly due to a lack of consistency and the resulting shuffling on the right side), but the run-first, play-action-later Houston offense still had plenty of moments. Itís when the running isnít an option ó either because of ineffectiveness or a big deficit ó that the plan falters. Former Texans lineman Ephraim Salaam refers to it as ďstaying on schedule,Ē but with offenses like the ones in New England, New Orleans, and Green Bay, relying on point production that can so easily come off the rails just doesnít feel like an option anymore.

Fifteen years ago, the zone-blocking scheme held dear by Mike Shanahan and offensive line coach Alex Gibbs was a way to win deep into the playoffs. John Elway and Terrell Davis were the ultimate play-action combination, and it was enough to win back-to-back Super Bowls. These days, very few teams lean on the straightforward zone running game for the majority of their offense. Shanahanís new team did plenty of zone blocking this year, but it was combined with read-option looks and the constant running threat of Robert Griffin III. No offense to Matt Schaub, but Iím not sure teams are too worried about his feet.

As teams find new ways to use players who donít fit certain boxes, the Texans are trying to shove their players into them. James Casey was almost exclusively a fullback in Houston a year ago before signing a three-year, $14.5 million deal in Philadelphia. Casey wonít be a fullback for Chip Kelly. Heíll likely be some form of H-back/slot receiver similar to the role Hernandez plays in New England. For years, there have been complaints about finding receiving complements to Andre Johnson, and instead of trying to figure out how Casey could exploit opposing linebackers, the Texans made him a lead blocker. (And letís not forget Jacoby Jones, who left Houston and became a big player in Baltimoreís Super Bowl run.)

With Casey and Kevin Walter now gone, finding that secondary receiver has become Houstonís most pressing offensive issue. There are concerns at other spots on both sides of the ball (right guard and tackle, inside linebacker, nose tackle, and outside linebacker), but the first step in developing some creativity on offense is finding more players who deserve it. No team in the league is more in need of a player like West Virginiaís Tavon Austin, but heíll likely be long gone before Houston picks at no. 27. There will be options at the end of the first round ó notably Calís Keenan Allen, Louisiana Techís Quinton Patton, and Clemsonís DeAndre Hopkins ó but the Texans could also be a candidate to drop down and look to add an extra third-round pick in the hope of filling one of those other needs as well. No matter how they choose to get him, Houston needs another pass catcher somewhere in this draft.

Whatever personnel Houston ends up with, the ultimate onus for their offensive development rests with Gary Kubiak and offensive coordinator Rick Dennison. Schaub probably isnít the franchiseís answer for the future at quarterback, but he deserves a system that at least gives him a chance to prove himself. That system isnít in place in Houston, and until it is, the Texans will be a long way from where they want to go.

Rey
04-08-2013, 03:02 PM
I don't think the offense is bad as much as Kubiak needs to become a bit more innovative within the offense and give his QB more freedom. I love this offensive system. It works.

But at times you have to adjust because if you're not executing well against a certain defense, you have to do something different to get the spark going...

Thorn
04-08-2013, 03:11 PM
There are a lot of reasons for the Texans failures in the playoffs the last two years. Kubiak is a huge reason, but certainly not the only one.

eriadoc
04-08-2013, 03:15 PM
I think Casey could have done the sorts of things that Vereen did against the team in the playoffs. I bet Chip Kelly thinks that as well.

76Texan
04-08-2013, 03:46 PM
First of all, it's weird. On the one hand, the author wants innovative, but when Casey is used unorthodoxly by Kubiak, the author took it badly.
That's inconsistent.

Secondly, the Texans haven't ran a pure zone for a few years now; they mix the gap scheme in liberally.

Thirdly, the Patriots had 3 more running plays (or something like that) than the Texans in the first half of their respective 16 regular season games.
I had provided the numbers before using Profootball Reference game play finder features.

And before we go on; I also compared Brady and Schaub before via Advanced NFL Stats. It shows that both QBs had attempted a similar percentage of deep balls (with receivers 15 yards beyond the LOS).
Drew Brees is also in this class.

It's just too easy for people to put everything in a box.

HoustonFrog
04-08-2013, 03:51 PM
One of the first comments I put in the James Casey FA thread was that I thought he would be outstanding in a A. Hernandez position. Still think that and think he wasn't used right. I think the article here was well written and hit the mark in many areas.

otisbean
04-08-2013, 03:54 PM
You can have a run first offense if your OL is really good and last year our wasn't. Hopefully the young guys will show some growth and will get back to level of our '11 OL which was really good. Adding another weapon (or 2) would definitely help when we get behind and need to throw a bit more.

Playoffs
04-08-2013, 03:57 PM
First of all, it's weird. On the one hand, the author wants innovative, but when Casey is used unorthodoxly by Kubiak, the author took it badly.
That's inconsistent.

Secondly, the Texans haven't ran a pure zone for a few years now; they mix the gap scheme in liberally.

Thirdly, the Patriots had 3 more running plays (or something like that) than the Texans in the first half of their respective 16 regular season games.
I had provided the numbers before using Profootball Reference game play finder features.

And before we go on; I also compared Brady and Schaub before via Advanced NFL Stats. It shows that both QBs had attempted a similar percentage of deep balls (with receivers 15 yards beyond the LOS).
Drew Brees is also in this class.

It's just too easy for people to put everything in a box.

...and finally, it's as much an actual indictment of our defense.

GP
04-08-2013, 04:11 PM
I predict Gary Kubiak will really open up his offense this year. He'll get creative, he'll have Plan B, Plan C...and the QB will have freedom to alter things significantly more than the past several seasons.

Not.

Go get your WRs, and watch Gary **** it up. It's what he does. If we get only 1 or 2 yards on 1st down, Gary locks things down. If 2nd down isn't manageable in his eyes, **** it...he'll play it safe and punt.

It's robbing the joy of watching football.

Mr teX
04-08-2013, 04:57 PM
Its the reason why i put 90% of this teams offensive woes on Kubiak and not Schaub in the end. The only way you can be a 70-30 run-heavy offense on the level Kubiak wants to is if you've got a great o-line.. If you don't have that, then you've got to move more towards the 50-50 threshold and do a good job of mixing the run and pass in with a few wrinkles here and there..he doesn't do that at all.

What Kubiak likes to do is run run run the ball on every 2nd/3rd and short-medium...if its 3rd and long he'll just give up on the drive completely and call a damn draw or some type of short/easy pass play like a bubble screen that ultimately depends on the skill player to make a gazillion guys miss to get the 1st.

Every now and then he'll let Schaub throw these little 5-8 yd passes off playaction; undoubtedly weak ass attempts to keep him in rhythm... that works fine if we're winning and we can control the game..when we're losing and its no longer a feasible option to continue running the ball he puts Schaub in the position of having to be an elite qb...which we all know he's not. The lack of weaponry outside of AJ just exacerbates the problem imo b/c schaub really only trusts 1 guy and at times gets himself into trouble when he tries to go to him too much.

infantrycak
04-08-2013, 05:45 PM
Its the reason why i put 90% of this teams offensive woes on Kubiak and not Schaub in the end. The only way you can be a 70-30 run-heavy offense on the level Kubiak wants to is if you've got a great o-line.. If you don't have that, then you've got to move more towards the 50-50 threshold and do a good job of mixing the run and pass in with a few wrinkles here and there..he doesn't do that at all.

Hope the above is meant as hyperbole but even if so ... for more realistic numbers:

Passing/running

2012 - 554/508
2011 - 467/548 - no Schaub for 6 games
2010 - 574/473
2009 - 593/425

76Texan
04-08-2013, 05:54 PM
Well, we can all agree that Kubiak has shown to be a pretty conservative coach; personally I use the term "percentage football".

Last year, the number of third and longER screwed up the numbers quite a bit.

At Profootball Reference.com, they define two levels of third and long.
The first being 7-10 yards and the second being anything longer.

Somehow, the Texans managed to get to third and VERY long a whole darn lot.
That's when the Texans turned really "conservative".

Facing third down with 7-10 yards to go, the Texans were much more "aggressive" as compared to the average of the league.

They only ran the ball 5 times in 53 situations.
That's less than 10% as compared to some 15% for the rest of the league.

The question that I had raised before is that how did the Texans get to third and VERY long so much more often than the average of the league.

Schaub didn't take many sacks so we are left with negative plays due to penalties and the run game (and an occasional loss on a screen pass.)

The Texans weren't any more predictable than the Patriots in the first halves of their games, so what gives?

Execution is all I can think of.
Do you have any other explanation?

Hervoyel
04-08-2013, 07:34 PM
I don't think the offense is bad as much as Kubiak needs to become a bit more innovative within the offense and give his QB more freedom. I love this offensive system. It works.

But at times you have to adjust because if you're not executing well against a certain defense, you have to do something different to get the spark going...

The problem is that the offense is Kubiak. Clearly Shanahan saw a need to make changes when he got RG3 and he made changes. In other places with other people from that philosophical tree it has been adapted to fit talent and tweaked as the years have gone by. Here with Kubiak it's like the system that time forgot or something.

Uncle Rico
04-08-2013, 10:21 PM
Seems like the writer of that piece is defending a buddy or something with his Casey love. It's not like we traded away an all pro or something geesh.

IIRC Koobs did his best to try and get him involved, he would run plays for him, but apart from a game or two Casey seemed inconsistent, with dropped passes and poor lead blocking, but I dont really think the latter was much his fault due to him playing out of position.

Koobs got caught in the headlights this last year and regressed as a coach. He stubbornly ran the same tired plays with a wrinkle or two worked in each week. 2 years ago I defended this offense as revolutionary with the TE across the grain screens, the use of the running back as a quality receiver and decoy, 2 TE motion passing. Not sure what happened this year, it was very plain. Almost like ISO left, ISO right, 6 yard pass ... PUNT. I exaggerate some, but opposing defenses seemed to know what we were doing this year. At least against the good teams. We have enough talent to whip up on the crappy teams, but that isnt good enough.

Brisco_County
04-08-2013, 11:03 PM
James Casey's ability was underused, and slightly misused. The H-back/slot is perfect for him, which we will be reminded of over and over when he demonstrates that in Philly (where I also think he'll take some direct snaps since he is actually a passing threat). In Houston, he was an ideal example of shoe-horning the player into the system, instead conceiving plays based on his abilities.

That example also reveals why Tavon Austin is the wrong pick for Houston. I personally would love picking Austin if plays are conceived to maximize his ability. But the system currently demands a tall, vertical threat, so that's who we'll draft.

Corrosion
04-09-2013, 04:28 AM
I don't think the offense is bad as much as Kubiak needs to become a bit more innovative within the offense and give his QB more freedom. I love this offensive system. It works.

But at times you have to adjust because if you're not executing well against a certain defense, you have to do something different to get the spark going...

Did NE beat them because they failed to score .... or because they failed to stop NE from posting points on the score board ?!?!

I think its the latter .... They gave up 83 points in the two games Vs the Pats ..... Thats a recipe for disaster in the NFL.

I dont think it matters what franchise you give up 83 to over a two game span , you are likely to lose both.


NE exploited the Texans deficiencies at LBer to get the job done. What does this tell me ?! A healthy Cushing closes the gap .... and an upgrade in talent next to him at ILB may solve the puzzle. James , Dobbins , Ruud .... aint gonna cut the mustard against a QB the quality of Tom Freakin Brady..


Averaging 21 points per game in those two contests didnt help ..... but 21 is more than enough to win on most occasions ... Just not when you face Trom Freakin Brady.


They got outcoached .... But I dont think its something you can pinpoint , it was an all around ass whoopin .... on both occasions on both sides of the ball.


Giving up 83 over any two game span is unacceptable ....

Lucky
04-09-2013, 07:48 AM
Did NE beat them because they failed to score .... or because they failed to stop NE from posting points on the score board ?!?! .
Both. In the MNF game, the starting offense scored one TD. With Yates leading the team to another meaningless score against the Patriot scrubs.

In the divisional playoff, the Texans were down 38-13 in the 4th, when the Texans picked up a couple of TDs against the prevent defense. Those were David Carr like stats that were also meaningless. The Texans were dominated when it counted on both sides of the ball.

kingtexan
04-09-2013, 08:20 AM
You can only do so much with the QB we have, so hopefully the run game will be back on track this coming season.

Rey
04-09-2013, 09:34 AM
Averaging 21 points per game in those two contests didnt help ..... but 21 is more than enough to win on most occasions ... Just not when you face Trom Freakin Brady.


Do you remember those games?

Offensively we did very little. We scored some garbage time TD's that made the score look better than it was. During the actual meat of the game it's not like our offense was flying up and down the field in some epic shoot out.


But I wasn't even talking about the NE games. Down the stretch and at other times during the season the offense was pathetic.

Rey
04-09-2013, 09:38 AM
Both. In the MNF game, the starting offense scored one TD. With Yates leading the team to another meaningless score against the Patriot scrubs.

In the divisional playoff, the Texans were down 38-13 in the 4th, when the Texans picked up a couple of TDs against the prevent defense. Those were David Carr like stats that were also meaningless. The Texans were dominated when it counted on both sides of the ball.

Pretty much.

This isn't an offense vs. defense discussion. Both were bad, but this thread is about the offense.

Rey
04-09-2013, 09:58 AM
The problem is that the offense is Kubiak. Clearly Shanahan saw a need to make changes when he got RG3 and he made changes. In other places with other people from that philosophical tree it has been adapted to fit talent and tweaked as the years have gone by. Here with Kubiak it's like the system that time forgot or something.

That's pretty funny...

It's going to be interesting to see how this team looks next year when they get into offensive funks.

Mr teX
04-09-2013, 10:03 AM
Hope the above is meant as hyperbole but even if so ... for more realistic numbers:

Passing/running

2012 - 554/508 -
2011 - 467/548 - no Schaub for 6 games
2010 - 574/473 -
2009 - 593/425

Total snaps for the season don't truly capture Kubiak's conservative playcalling within a game...There are too many variables that have to be factored in looking at it this way.... Better insight into that would be to see his play breakdown based on down and distance for the first down.

thunderkyss
04-09-2013, 12:23 PM
I think it's funny how just 3 years ago, people were talking about the innovation of the Texans' offense. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Yes, just a few years ago we would hear how other teams, NFL teams, were copying parts of our offense adding it to theirs.

But that same guy is now the most conservative in the league.

Something must have happened between then & now.

The Pencil Neck
04-09-2013, 12:44 PM
I don't consider this offense outdated, personally.

Mr teX
04-09-2013, 12:56 PM
I don't consider this offense outdated, personally.

It's not as every offense has packages that are designed to counter certain aspects of what a defense is trying to do to them...

look at how expansive Kubiak's Denny's menu is....
http://blog.chron.com/sportsjustice/files/2011/10/kubiak2.jpg


Now look at what McDaniels/O'Brien have in their hands 9 out of 10 times for NE
http://www.bostonglobe.com/rf/image_r/Boston/2011-2020/2012/10/16/BostonGlobe.com/Sports/Images/Patriots%20Seahawks%20Football.JPEG-0db04.r.jpg

Yet which team/coach shows more diversity in thier playcalling and personnel packages?

The Pencil Neck
04-09-2013, 01:06 PM
I do NOT understand why you guys are so hung up on that Denny's Menu thing.

Is Kubiak a conservative play-caller? Yeah. Do you really want him to call some more half-back passes? Really? Or would you prefer to keep winning games?

Most offensive coordinators who become head coaches either:
1) Can't get their team on track offensively (like Billick)
2) Get absolutely silly with their clock management and play choice (see Mike Martz, Jason Garrett)

Mr teX
04-09-2013, 01:36 PM
I do NOT understand why you guys are so hung up on that Denny's Menu thing.

Is Kubiak a conservative play-caller? Yeah. Do you really want him to call some more half-back passes? Really? Or would you prefer to keep winning games?

Most offensive coordinators who become head coaches either:
1) Can't get their team on track offensively (like Billick)
2) Get absolutely silly with their clock management and play choice (see Mike Martz, Jason Garrett)

The obsession with the denny's menu speaks to the variety of plays and packages he could use to do this.

It's not about calling specifically half back passes, and more about calling something different than what he normally calls when teams have settled in on what you want to do....All it takes is 1 or 2 of those plays to hit and the seed is planted.

if for nothing else to at least get the defense to think about it. At least make it look different.

tru80texan
04-09-2013, 01:37 PM
I think it's funny how just 3 years ago, people were talking about the innovation of the Texans' offense. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Yes, just a few years ago we would hear how other teams, NFL teams, were copying parts of our offense adding it to theirs.

But that same guy is now the most conservative in the league.

Something must have happened between then & now.

Ummmm...I don't recall ever reading that any team was taking offensive pointers from a 6-10 Texans team. Especially once you consider, they had just discovered the gem they had in Arian & were finally attempting to become a bit more balanced after being a pass heavy team w/ an ineffective run game in 2009. Seems a bit of a reach to say others were trying to imitate a team that didn't even have all its pieces & were trying to figure out its own identity. This offense is not being ran similar to what it was when Schaub was amongst the league leaders at QB & Chris Brown was the rb. I think that's safe to say.

The Pencil Neck
04-09-2013, 02:18 PM
The obsession with the denny's menu speaks to the variety of plays and packages he could use to do this.

It's not about calling specifically half back passes, and more about calling something different than what he normally calls when teams have settled in on what you want to do....All it takes is 1 or 2 of those plays to hit and the seed is planted.

if for nothing else to at least get the defense to think about it. At least make it look different.

lol

I feel really sorry for you guys if that's your issue.

The whole point of this offense is making it LOOK the same.

We have a good offense. We have a productive offense. In the end, that's what matters.

The Pencil Neck
04-09-2013, 02:20 PM
Ummmm...I don't recall ever reading that any team was taking offensive pointers from a 6-10 Texans team. Especially once you consider, they had just discovered the gem they had in Arian & were finally attempting to become a bit more balanced after being a pass heavy team w/ an ineffective run game in 2009. Seems a bit of a reach to say others were trying to imitate a team that didn't even have all its pieces & were trying to figure out its own identity. This offense is not being ran similar to what it was when Schaub was amongst the league leaders at QB & Chris Brown was the rb. I think that's safe to say.

There have been several coaches (including the Ravens and Bengals) who've said they study the Texans offense in the off-season. When Leach went to the Ravens, they had him give them pointers in how to block the ZBS the way we do.

Mr teX
04-09-2013, 02:31 PM
lol

I feel really sorry for you guys if that's your issue.

The whole point of this offense is making it LOOK the same.

We have a good offense. We have a productive offense. In the end, that's what matters.

"When it matters" (prime-time games, playoffs) is exactly when it doesn't matter and when the the offense isn't as productive as it needs to be.

Double Barrel
04-09-2013, 02:32 PM
Now look at what McDaniels/O'Brien have in their hands 9 out of 10 times for NE
http://www.bostonglobe.com/rf/image_r/Boston/2011-2020/2012/10/16/BostonGlobe.com/Sports/Images/Patriots%20Seahawks%20Football.JPEG-0db04.r.jpg

Yet which team/coach shows more diversity in thier playcalling and personnel packages?

I look forward to seeing how NE fares without a HoF QB behind center. It makes all the difference in the world.

The Pencil Neck
04-09-2013, 02:46 PM
"When it matters" (prime-time games, playoffs) is exactly when it doesn't matter and when the the offense isn't as productive as it needs to be.

And you think that's because of the size of Kubiak's play sheet? Really?

Mr teX
04-09-2013, 02:48 PM
I look forward to seeing how NE fares without a HoF QB behind center. It makes all the difference in the world.

not dismissing that aspect of it at all, but Brady doesn't have control over the personnel packages Bellichick/McDaniels run out there for him to use.

GP
04-09-2013, 02:48 PM
I think it's funny how just 3 years ago, people were talking about the innovation of the Texans' offense. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Yes, just a few years ago we would hear how other teams, NFL teams, were copying parts of our offense adding it to theirs.

But that same guy is now the most conservative in the league.

Something must have happened between then & now.

Gary, like most anybody else, has become someone who relies on what's comfortable and what worked well in the past.

Everything about the guy screams "play it safe."

Oh, we only picked up 1 or 2 yards on 1st down? Well ****, let's be safe and not commit a turnover here. After all, the defense will get it back for us. This game is about field position after all. (Which works well against lesser opponents who always shoot themselves in the foot...not so wonderful against very competent offenses such as GB and NE and now apparently Indy, again!)

Our QB is the definition of reliably safe. So much so that he began throwing the ball away even when he had a meager amount of pressure on him at the end of the season last year. We've all seen THAT before, it's the sign that something is wrong. Isn't it? Be it physical, mental, or both...something is wrong there.

Keeps inferior coaches on staff. Joe Marciano: Nuff said. Right? Oh wait, the outlawing of "the wedge" is what killed Joe's mojo. I forgot. Always an excuse for how Gary can keep inferior coaches and players around.

The mystique has worn off of Gary Kubiak because he himself has become predictable and beatable by any team who isn't named Cleveland Browns, Jacksonville Jaguars, or any other weak sister team out there that breaks down in the midst of a game against us. We won the two OT games vs. Lions and Jags because frankly they quit before we did. Against GB and NE (twice) it was the Texans who mailed it in at the first sign of trouble.

This team is a reflection of its head coach. Stable, productive offense...loyalty amongst them all, which makes them feel like a team (and probably gets them through many games they'd otherwise lose to weak sister teams)....but an inability to dig deep into the suitcase of courage and pull out the starched underwear and buckle down for a hard day's work.

We don't have to play nice about this, guys and gals. It is what it is. I don't expect a leap this year, there's nothing here that has happened the previous several seasons that should fill anybody with a trustworthy springboard to jump upon and dive into a Kool Aid-filled 2013 season. We're going to beat the teams we should, and we'll lose to the teams we should lose to. And along the way, Gary's old habits will undo him and this team when crunch time arrives.

Good, entertaining football...until the heat gets too hot, and then we fold up and head home. Same ****, different season. But better than being a cellar dweller, I might add.

Mr teX
04-09-2013, 03:13 PM
And you think that's because of the size of Kubiak's play sheet? Really?

Dude don't be dense...clearly the size of his play sheet with it written on the front and back indicates that there are more plays and options for different looks and personnel packages than the small percentage of them he seems to revolve around yearly. It's like he gets info overload and gets stuck in 1 area of his play sheet when he calls plays in the games at times.

Arian Foster's targets in the passing game have steadily declined over the last 3 years...from 60+ recs in the last few years down to just 40 rec this past year....and thats with him missing 2 games in 2011. What the hell happened? You could say that teams started accounting for him more.........but then there's that pesky "targets" stat which shows that his targets were down as well. Now when you consider Foster is one of our best playmakers why would you bring down his targets in the passing game? Why not try to get creative with how you get him the ball? What happened to that throw back play he scored on running a wheel route out of the backfield last year in TB? This is the kind of creativity that he needs to embrace more.

making every play look the same has its benefits only if you put enough options out there in a variety of different ways to make teams think....and pay for it if they're not respecting certain aspects of your offense. If you don't do that, it just makes it easier for defenses to defend you...

thunderkyss
04-09-2013, 03:52 PM
I think it's encouraging to know that we feel this offense can be (& should have been) more prolific than what it was in 2012.

Jules Winnfield
04-09-2013, 04:05 PM
sigh...........


this is what i dont understand about kubiak, the texans have great design plays but the problem is kubiak is horrible at picking which plays to run. He would choose a great reverse to keyshawn that gains 10 yards and you never ever see it again!!! The offfense would dial up a great play for casey that nets them positive yards then you never see that play again!!!! Everybody talks about the vast dennys menu yet it seems like we run the same plays over and over again and we only see creative plays every now and again. Kubiak outsmarts himself far too many times and over thinks plays. Its like he has a set of normal plays he runs then has another set of other great plays that he runs every now and then. I wish he would run all of them. Kubiak doesnt use his entire denny's menu's arsenal.


Great coaches like belichick and someone like jeff fisher, if a play works, they come back to it. They run it over and over again until its stopped. Even if its stopped they come back to it because its been known to be successful.

We had a unique, athletic full back in casey yet he barely touched the ball. There was that road game in new orleans where they dialed up great plays for casey that got us huge chunk of yards and we never came back to it. We should be targeting casey multiple times every game to take advantage of his unique athleticism and skill set yet kubiak rarely went to him.
Arian foster catching the ball was also another weapon that was severely under used. RB screens should have been a staple for our offense with our inconsistent right o line yet kubiak didnt call it enough. Ben tate was another weapon that was grossly underused even before his injury.

We have great plays, great players, but kubiak because of his conservative, rigid, one dimensional, play not to lose approach, a lot of our weapons got under utilized.Kubiak's incompetence is why people still think matt schaub is the answer and as a schaub hater i sometimes think of that. Is it schaub or is it kubiak's coaching that is hindering him like not being able to audible at the line of scrimmage or using a no huddle offense.

It doesnt help kubiak either because of matt's glaring weaknesses which in turn ask the question is kubiak really a bad coach or is it schaub?

That's why ive always wanted to move on from either both or one of them so we can definitively say yes that's the problem lets upgrade that. The fact that we are staying with both guys, for better or for worse, it will muddy the water forever for the fanbase and the front office.

Nawzer
04-09-2013, 08:19 PM
It's simple really. Kubiak either incorporates more uptempo plays in his offense or the offense will suffer like it did towards the end of last year. It's clear that other teams have figured out how to attack our offense and the Texans have to find ways to keep defenses off balance. The way you do that is to be more proactive like run plays faster, give multiple looks, quick slant routes and let the receivers do their job, etc. Schaub's immobility is a limitation, but not an excuse to not run a faster offense instead of the lumbering, slow moving, it takes 10 plays to set up 1 big play offense.

Texan_Bill
04-09-2013, 08:35 PM
Total snaps for the season don't truly capture Kubiak's conservative playcalling within a game...There are too many variables that have to be factored in looking at it this way.... Better insight into that would be to see his play breakdown based on down and distance for the first down.

Every NFL Head Coach is "conservative" on third and long... Some more than others, but they all are. It's not College football. If they weren't, they would be Jerry Glanville's definition of NFL........ Not For Long.

Texan_Bill
04-09-2013, 08:39 PM
I look forward to seeing how NE fares without a HoF QB behind center. It makes all the difference in the world.

"Oh, do you think so Doctor?"

Signed,

The Colonel from Boogie Nights

;)

tru80texan
04-09-2013, 09:04 PM
There have been several coaches (including the Ravens and Bengals) who've said they study the Texans offense in the off-season. When Leach went to the Ravens, they had him give them pointers in how to block the ZBS the way we do.

By any chance do you have a source because the Ravens & Bengals seem to run their own types of offenses & aren't as playaction heavy as we are nor are they known for relying on the ZBS as much as we do. Studying a team on how to utilize the ZBS scheme is hardly imitation imo. They are not relying on the Texans to fill their playbook, they are studying a scheme by studying a team who depends on it heavily & had some success while possibly learning from some of its ex-players imo. That's a bit different imo. Adopting the ZBS scheme doesn't mean that all teams are "imitating" the Texans imo.

Once again, the 2012 Texans offense is quite different from the 2009 & 2010 offenses as it was pass heavy w/ slim to no running game in 2009 & learning what it was capable of in 2010 in the running game. A team who studied the Texans in 2009 or 2010 would see a different approach today w/out a doubt.

Texanmike02
04-09-2013, 09:46 PM
I do NOT understand why you guys are so hung up on that Denny's Menu thing.

Is Kubiak a conservative play-caller? Yeah. Do you really want him to call some more half-back passes? Really? Or would you prefer to keep winning games?

Most offensive coordinators who become head coaches either:
1) Can't get their team on track offensively (like Billick)
2) Get absolutely silly with their clock management and play choice (see Mike Martz, Jason Garrett)

Signed,
Chris Brown

leebigeztx
04-10-2013, 02:24 AM
Years ago we used to argue about this offense. I was on the side that says this offense never scores enough to win. They don't have explosive players anywhere on offense anymore. Andre is great,but he's not beating anyone like he used to. He still can get open,but most of his plays are in cuts for gainers. Daniels can beat lbs or safeties to give schaub an easy throw. The #2 wr has been largely a 0 with walters. Arian is great,but again,we're talking about a grnd it out type. Schaub? He's ok as long as u don't ask him to win games. They need more explosive players on offense.They also need a better qb who can make plays.

Mr teX
04-10-2013, 10:00 AM
Every NFL Head Coach is "conservative" on third and long... Some more than others, but they all are. It's not College football. If they weren't, they would be Jerry Glanville's definition of NFL........ Not For Long.

by play breakdown i mean calling plays where at least 80% of the yardage is gained via a pass in the air & has a solid chance of being converted on 3rd and long.......vs the safe screen, draw or off tackle run play he usually calls where the skill player has to make up the majority of the yardage themselves by making defenders miss.

Way too often Kubiak just surrenders on drives with these kinds of plays.... do something that's not expected of you a few more times on drives...just make the defense at least "think" you might do this or that. Every game we lost last year we were thoroughly dominated on offense. And amongst the many reasons why that was the case is b/c the opposing defense had our number down pact. Why do you suppose that is? How is it that a defense can shut u down so easily?

76Texan
04-10-2013, 10:21 AM
Years ago we used to argue about this offense. I was on the side that says this offense never scores enough to win. They don't have explosive players anywhere on offense anymore. Andre is great,but he's not beating anyone like he used to. He still can get open,but most of his plays are in cuts for gainers. Daniels can beat lbs or safeties to give schaub an easy throw. The #2 wr has been largely a 0 with walters. Arian is great,but again,we're talking about a grnd it out type. Schaub? He's ok as long as u don't ask him to win games. They need more explosive players on offense.They also need a better qb who can make plays.

Years ago???

When we had Andre Davis or when we had Jacoby Jones?

The Pencil Neck
04-10-2013, 01:37 PM
By any chance do you have a source because the Ravens & Bengals seem to run their own types of offenses & aren't as playaction heavy as we are nor are they known for relying on the ZBS as much as we do. Studying a team on how to utilize the ZBS scheme is hardly imitation imo. They are not relying on the Texans to fill their playbook, they are studying a scheme by studying a team who depends on it heavily & had some success while possibly learning from some of its ex-players imo. That's a bit different imo. Adopting the ZBS scheme doesn't mean that all teams are "imitating" the Texans imo.

Once again, the 2012 Texans offense is quite different from the 2009 & 2010 offenses as it was pass heavy w/ slim to no running game in 2009 & learning what it was capable of in 2010 in the running game. A team who studied the Texans in 2009 or 2010 would see a different approach today w/out a doubt.

My source was the broadcasts when we played those teams. So you'd have to go back and watch those games and they might not have even been this past year's games.

But if you don't agree that trying to learn how a particular team does something so that you can do it yourself is a form of imitation, then we have a different definition of imitation and we'll have to agree to disagree.

And I disagree that our offense is "quite different" from the 2009 and 2010 offenses. The play-calling might be a little different but the offense is largely the same. What has changed is our blocking scheme. Since Gibbs left, we've updated and upgraded our blocking schemes to employ more pulling and trapping.

tru80texan
04-10-2013, 03:09 PM
My source was the broadcasts when we played those teams. So you'd have to go back and watch those games and they might not have even been this past year's games.

But if you don't agree that trying to learn how a particular team does something so that you can do it yourself is a form of imitation, then we have a different definition of imitation and we'll have to agree to disagree.

And I disagree that our offense is "quite different" from the 2009 and 2010 offenses. The play-calling might be a little different but the offense is largely the same. What has changed is our blocking scheme. Since Gibbs left, we've updated and upgraded our blocking schemes to employ more pulling and trapping.

So basically there is no source we can refer back to unless we try to figure out which broadcast of the Ravens & Bengals games it was actually mentioned in which by your account could've been any of the years past & not necessarily last years. Well...that sounds like some solid information that we can all take to the bank. :toropalm:

Once again, I stand by my statement that just because a team adopts the ZBS scheme in whole or in parts does not mean that that team is "imitating" the Texans & adopting their offensive playbook or offensive approach. Which in my opinion is "imitation". Merely studying a team to learn how to utilize a scheme is researching IMO. The Texans are hardly the inventors of the ZBS, so not all of whom adopt it are Texan imitators IMO.

Here's some food for thought:
Texans NFL Offensive Ranks (NFL.com)

2009- Passing #1 Rushing #30
2010- Passing #4 Rushing #7
2011- Passing #8 Rushing #2
2012- Passing #11 Rushing #8

Now maybe you don't see a difference in the offensive approach, but it's pretty clear that in 2009 that the Texans were very pass heavy & as the years have gone by, & the emergence of Arian, the transition has gone from pass heavy to balanced in 2010 & then favoring the run in 2011 & 2012. So there has obviously been a transition from pass to run & the rankings seem to reflect it. Granted the playbook may contain plays that have been there since 2009, but which ones are utilized more often seems to have changed & studying the Texans offense in 2009 vs 2012 gives me reason to believe that the play calling, pass vs rush, would yield different results between the 2 yrs. The offensive rankings seem to agree.

Needless to say, I agree that we can agree to disagree on most of these items.:)

The Pencil Neck
04-10-2013, 04:05 PM
So basically there is no source we can refer back to unless we try to figure out which broadcast of the Ravens & Bengals games it was actually mentioned in which by your account could've been any of the years past & not necessarily last years. Well...that sounds like some solid information that we can all take to the bank. :toropalm:

So... you're calling me a liar?

deucetx
04-10-2013, 04:10 PM
Eh, not sure why you guys are even discussing the zone blocking. It's not like the Texans created it so not like any utilizing it are imitating the Texans. It's been around for years and there are several teams that use it. Heck, some high schools use it so it's not some Texans innovation.

In any case, the running game isn't the issue. It is the passing game. You don't go six quarters against the likes of the Vikings and Colts without scoring a touchdown and everything is picture perfect. Your redzone production (touchdown wise) doesn't drop dramatically around 20-25% during the season because all is well. Heck, you don't score just a measly 6 points at home to the Viqueens either.

So yeah, this offense could use some adjustments. Major ones? No, of course not. It still was productive most of the time. But this team needs to find the endzone more and not have to cave any time we have a 3rd and 8 or whatever constitutes the need for a draw play almost every single time. While the personnel needs some upgrading...or I should say we simply need some freaking speed...we could try using our personnel and fit the scheme around them instead of the other way around. After all, didn't we learn as kids that trying to shove a square peg into a round hole won't work? Well unless you use a sledgehammer or something.

Every facet on this team needs some work and I would think the end of the season told us that much. Just the changes do not need to be such a major upheavel as some may believe.

The Pencil Neck
04-10-2013, 04:19 PM
Once again, I stand by my statement that just because a team adopts the ZBS scheme in whole or in parts does not mean that that team is "imitating" the Texans & adopting their offensive playbook or offensive approach. Which in my opinion is "imitation". Merely studying a team to learn how to utilize a scheme is researching IMO. The Texans are hardly the inventors of the ZBS, so not all of whom adopt it are Texan imitators IMO.


If they study the Texans to learn how to do something and try to do it the way the Texans do it, then there's some imitation involved.

And the Bengals weren't studying our ZBS, they were studying our route combinations.

Oh, wait. No. I'm lying about that. :mariopalm:


Here's some food for thought:
Texans NFL Offensive Ranks (NFL.com)

2009- Passing #1 Rushing #30
2010- Passing #4 Rushing #7
2011- Passing #8 Rushing #2
2012- Passing #11 Rushing #8

Now maybe you don't see a difference in the offensive approach, but it's pretty clear that in 2009 that the Texans were very pass heavy & as the years have gone by, & the emergence of Arian, the transition has gone from pass heavy to balanced in 2010 & then favoring the run in 2011 & 2012. So there has obviously been a transition from pass to run & the rankings seem to reflect it. Granted the playbook may contain plays that have been there since 2009, but which ones are utilized more often seems to have changed & studying the Texans offense in 2009 vs 2012 gives me reason to believe that the play calling, pass vs rush, would yield different results between the 2 yrs. The offensive rankings seem to agree.

Needless to say, I agree that we can agree to disagree on most of these items.:)

Just because you choose to call more passing plays than rushing plays when the pass game is working better than the running game doesn't mean that it's a different offense.

Kubiak's goal in this offense has ALWAYS been to very balanced between rush and pass. In the past, he couldn't but with the emergence of his offensive line and his running backs, he's able to rely more on them the way he's always wanted to.

You're confusing the playcalling for the offense. Every week, the game plan changes. And with the change of the game plan, the play calling changes. Some weeks, you're going to call more long pass plays, some weeks, more screens and drop offs, and some weeks you're going to run more. But it's all the same offense.

The Pencil Neck
04-10-2013, 04:24 PM
Eh, not sure why you guys are even discussing the zone blocking. It's not like the Texans created it so not like any utilizing it are imitating the Texans. It's been around for years and there are several teams that use it. Heck, some high schools use it so it's not some Texans innovation.

Using the ZBS isn't imitating the Texans and I never said it was.

But the announcers at one of the games said that LEACH said that he sat down with the Ravens offense and taught them how the Texans run the ZBS. They sat down and watched tape on the Texans and Leach showed them what their reads were and how it was supposed to work. At that point, when they wanted to run a ZBS play, they tried to do it like the Texans did.

To me, that's imitation. They're not pulling out the whole playbook but they're imitating the way the Texans do certain things.

infantrycak
04-10-2013, 04:27 PM
To me, that's imitation. They're not pulling out the whole playbook but they're imitating the way the Texans do certain things.

I won't pretend to remember when exactly but I have heard such comments made several times within the last couple years.

drs23
04-10-2013, 05:51 PM
I won't pretend to remember when exactly but I have heard such comments made several times within the last couple years.

Same here. It's been discussed on air. I've heard it on more than one occasion. Flattery I tell ya. :bubbles:

76Texan
04-10-2013, 07:59 PM
Same here. It's been discussed on air. I've heard it on more than one occasion. Flattery I tell ya. :bubbles:

You're lying; you and TPN both! :swatter:

The Pencil Neck
04-10-2013, 08:37 PM
You're lying; you and TPN both! :swatter:

NEG Rep FOR YOU!!!

:evil:

drs23
04-10-2013, 09:46 PM
NEG Rep FOR YOU!!!

:evil:

:goodpost: :evil: :bat:

tru80texan
04-10-2013, 10:58 PM
So... you're calling me a liar?

No Sir!! I take your word as the gospel regardless of whether or not it's backed by a source. :bubbles:


Kubiak's goal in this offense has ALWAYS been to very balanced between rush and pass. In the past, he couldn't but with the emergence of his offensive line and his running backs, he's able to rely more on them the way he's always wanted to.

You're confusing the playcalling for the offense. Every week, the game plan changes. And with the change of the game plan, the play calling changes. Some weeks, you're going to call more long pass plays, some weeks, more screens and drop offs, and some weeks you're going to run more. But it's all the same offense.

We know kubiak tries to be balanced. That goes w/out saying & the rankings I provided shows that. Never disputed that. What was disputed & what you seem to be missing is what the original debate was over. Someone stated that other teams have studied the Texans in attempt to imitate their offense for the last 3 seasons. Considering the Texan's offense has transformed from a pass heavy team in 09 to a slightly run heavy team in 2012, then it's safe to say those that have studied the Texans in hopes of imitating have noticed the shift as well. I'm not confused about game plans because that to goes w/out saying as well, plans change according to opponents. This was a change in offensive strategy due to the Texans limitations in the past. No RB, suspect o-line, & Swiss cheese defense=pass heavy offense In 2009. No real confusion, it's pretty straight forward IMO. Once again, we can agree to disagree because this horse has been beaten to the bones.

tru80texan
04-10-2013, 11:06 PM
I won't pretend to remember when exactly but I have heard such comments made several times within the last couple years.

Your statement is probably the best way to make that claim, IMO, as opposed to saying:

"Fill in NFL team has studied the the Texans offense for years in attempt to imitate them. I recall this being said in fill in random year, but I can't remember for sure. Trust me!". Just my :twocents:. lol!

thunderkyss
04-11-2013, 12:51 AM
Your statement is probably the best way to make that claim, IMO, as opposed to saying:

"Fill in NFL team has studied the the Texans offense for years in attempt to imitate them. I recall this being said in fill in random year, but I can't remember for sure. Trust me!". Just my :twocents:. lol!

Usually, when they talked about imitating the Texans, it was about our formations, the motions, & the route combinations. It wasn't just one or two games, it was several. Just about every time they would go on about Andre always being open (& back then, it wasn't only on the play action) they would talk about other teams borrowing from the Texans.

Sometimes they would talk about it when they talked about our fast starts (back when we were a fast start team).

& then when they talked about Tj Yates, his college coach pretty much said he flat out ripped off our play-book, which was what a lot of people credited Tj's ability to pick up on our offense so quickly.

Honestly, it was mentioned so many times over the years, I'm more surprised that you don't remember one instance.

deucetx
04-11-2013, 09:09 AM
Using the ZBS isn't imitating the Texans and I never said it was.

But the announcers at one of the games said that LEACH said that he sat down with the Ravens offense and taught them how the Texans run the ZBS. They sat down and watched tape on the Texans and Leach showed them what their reads were and how it was supposed to work. At that point, when they wanted to run a ZBS play, they tried to do it like the Texans did.

To me, that's imitation. They're not pulling out the whole playbook but they're imitating the way the Texans do certain things.

Your first line contradicts your last statement. I wasn't saying that you were stating they are imitating the total Texans offense because quite honestly that would be a bit silly. And I'm sure the Ravens did pick it up since they started messing with ZB in 2011.

Either way that wasn't my point. My point was what does someone imitating or taking points from our zone blocking system have to do with the issues we have on offense? In the NFL everyone takes something from everyone. This isn't something the Texans have exclusively. Our offense isn't horrible so of course other teams will take finer points and see how to install them into their own or find ways to adjust it to their benefit. Every single team does this. It's nothing new.

The point is the offense has issues that need to be addressed, adjusted or changed. We shouldn't have problems when we're down against a good team if we wish to be among the elites. We shouldn't look out of sync when things don't go perfectly to plan or the script. We shouldn't be handicapped on 3rd and 8+ yards. For the personnel on this team and having an offensive minded coach you would expect our 3rd down conversions to be 40%+. You would never suspect we'd go 6 quarters without scoring a touchdown against bottom half or medicore defenses, etc.

So someone imitating or taking points from the things we actually do well on offense does not erase the issues at hand. That is the point. Yay they imitated the one thing we do excellent in. Great. But now we earned 1st place schedules so will have to perform against these top tier teams consistently. Not showing up offensively one moment and completely becoming a field goal-a-thon the next won't cut it. Whether it is playcalling, personnel usage, or scheme, something needs to change to keep the team consistent which last year definitely was not the case especially after the bye.

It's as simple as if you want to go to the next level (which they do and fans should too) then you have to raise your level of play.

GP
04-11-2013, 09:40 AM
Your first line contradicts your last statement. I wasn't saying that you were stating they are imitating the total Texans offense because quite honestly that would be a bit silly. And I'm sure the Ravens did pick it up since they started messing with ZB in 2011.

Either way that wasn't my point. My point was what does someone imitating or taking points from our zone blocking system have to do with the issues we have on offense? In the NFL everyone takes something from everyone. This isn't something the Texans have exclusively. Our offense isn't horrible so of course other teams will take finer points and see how to install them into their own or find ways to adjust it to their benefit. Every single team does this. It's nothing new.

The point is the offense has issues that need to be addressed, adjusted or changed. We shouldn't have problems when we're down against a good team if we wish to be among the elites. We shouldn't look out of sync when things don't go perfectly to plan or the script. We shouldn't be handicapped on 3rd and 8+ yards. For the personnel on this team and having an offensive minded coach you would expect our 3rd down conversions to be 40%+. You would never suspect we'd go 6 quarters without scoring a touchdown against bottom half or medicore defenses, etc.

So someone imitating or taking points from the things we actually do well on offense does not erase the issues at hand. That is the point. Yay they imitated the one thing we do excellent in. Great. But now we earned 1st place schedules so will have to perform against these top tier teams consistently. Not showing up offensively one moment and completely becoming a field goal-a-thon the next won't cut it. Whether it is playcalling, personnel usage, or scheme, something needs to change to keep the team consistent which last year definitely was not the case especially after the bye.

It's as simple as if you want to go to the next level (which they do and fans should too) then you have to raise your level of play.

Agreed.

That's a huge problem around here: Fans looking at Schaub's stats, showing Schaub's numbers to AJ (completions, yards, etc.), talking about our rankings on offense...all of it, they say, is some sort of indicator that all is well and we just need this or that to jump to the next level.

I don't want to talk about stats. In the NBA, for a few years, the Phoenix Suns had crazy insane numbers...unbeatable, can't keep up with them, they out-hustle defenses, they're built for speed, blah blah blah...and yet they never won a title. Were never even really close, actually. So the STATS game is not where titles are won. And that's Kubiak's overriding problem, as well.

With Gary Kubiak, you get the sense that he thinks his offense and his guys--if they perform the way they should--it should end up with the good guys (Texans) winning the game. He's built an offense, he's stocked it with his guys, he's loyal to his guys, and if those guys will just run the plays and do what he wants (how he wants it) then it should add up to a victory.

When watching A Football Life: Tom Landry, the entire underlying framework of what Tom Landry was about was his idea that IF his players would just run his plays, the way they should run them based on how Landry wanted them to, then they would win. The interviews with players echoed this over and over, to the point that the players said "You really honestly felt like you were just a drone. Like you needed to just do what Coach Landry said and that's all there was to victory. Do it his way, every time, and the system would be unbeatable." I'm paraphrasing there, but you get the drift. When I saw that documentary, it really turned on a light bulb for me in terms of what Kubiak's biggest downfall is. He has a form of Tom Landry Syndrome, the idea that you've built the perfect offense and you've got the perfect guys for it...now all that needs to happen is for them to do it the way you want them to do it and it means victory on Sundays.

In a way, it's worked. But only in the sense that it's enabled us to beat teams who are either at our level of talent or teams below us. When we have to play "up" to teams such as GB and NE, we can't. Those are the games where crafty, innovative, and just plain "nasty" head coaching has to push the guys over the top against teams like Patriots and Packers.

In essence, it kinda' sucks that Gary basically has this philosophy that his system and his guys are good enough to win every Sunday just on the merits of their knowledge and execution of his system. How many times have we seen this team come off a bye week, the past however many seasons now, and they looks flat? They had two weeks to rest and get ready for a team and they blew it. How about the fact that you got your ass spanked by the Patriots in the reg season and the best you could manage in the playoffs against them was to at least not look as pathetic as you did before? How can you continue to call plays that don't work, give up on 3rd and long ROUTINELY, and how do you not fire a really really bad special teams coach?

At the end of the day, your numbers can look good but you're not really achieving anything of true factual significance. Ask Barry Sanders about all his crazy stats he had; ask him if he wanted those stats or HOF entry or a Super Bowl Title the most. I bet he'd say Super Bowl Title.

Stats are fun. But stats do not win championships. Good coaches, good players, and making your own luck DO win championships. Gary needs to dig deep into the suitcase of courage and start watching game-deciding field goals, start letting his guys compete on 3rd and long, and make changes at positions such as special teams...but he won't. He even had to have his hand forced on firing Frank Bush, basically being advised that if he stayed with Frank in 2011 and things stayed bad that it would be everyone's head on the chopping block for having stuck with his guy.

And it pisses me off. We finally have a competent defense under a real d-coord and it's being wasted. All because Gary values his ideology more than the overriding concept of TEAM FOOTBALL. Sure, he takes the blame for his guys' failures. That's nice. Sure, he sticks with underperforming coaches because he wants them to work out of a rut and get back to winning form. That's nice. Sure, he has some decent stats every year. That's nice.

But nice doesn't win hardware in February. And I think that's what Michael Lombardi and others mean when they say the Texans are soft, or that we're posers and phonies. We're the Phoenix Suns of the NFL.

infantrycak
04-11-2013, 09:54 AM
When watching A Football Life: Tom Landry, the entire underlying framework of what Tom Landry was about was his idea that IF his players would just run his plays, the way they should run them based on how Landry wanted them to, then they would win. The interviews with players echoed this over and over, to the point that the players said "You really honestly felt like you were just a drone. Like you needed to just do what Coach Landry said and that's all there was to victory. Do it his way, every time, and the system would be unbeatable." I'm paraphrasing there, but you get the drift. When I saw that documentary, it really turned on a light bulb for me in terms of what Kubiak's biggest downfall is. He has a form of Tom Landry Syndrome, the idea that you've built the perfect offense and you've got the perfect guys for it...now all that needs to happen is for them to do it the way you want them to do it and it means victory on Sundays.

LOL that you just tried to spin a negative out of a comparison to one of the greatest (and most innovative) coaches in NFL history.

Sign me up for the Tom Landry Syndrome of 18 playoffs in 20 years. What a joke.

The Pencil Neck
04-11-2013, 11:44 AM
Your first line contradicts your last statement.

No. It doesn't.

Using the ZBS isn't imitating the Texans UNLESS you look at and study the way the Texans do it as your example and use the Texans' approach as your template.

The Colts under Manning ran a lot of zone concept runs but they weren't imitating the Texans' way of doing it. The Ravens had plays with zone concepts but before Leach taught them our way of doing it, they weren't imitating us.

We don't own the ZBS and we don't own the West Coast Offense but we run a particular and specific variation of each. If a team studies us and then MODELS their offensive approach off of ours, then that's imitation.


I wasn't saying that you were stating they are imitating the total Texans offense because quite honestly that would be a bit silly. And I'm sure the Ravens did pick it up since they started messing with ZB in 2011.

You didn't say that but someone else in the thread did.


Either way that wasn't my point. My point was what does someone imitating or taking points from our zone blocking system have to do with the issues we have on offense? In the NFL everyone takes something from everyone. This isn't something the Texans have exclusively. Our offense isn't horrible so of course other teams will take finer points and see how to install them into their own or find ways to adjust it to their benefit. Every single team does this. It's nothing new.

The point is the offense has issues that need to be addressed, adjusted or changed. We shouldn't have problems when we're down against a good team if we wish to be among the elites. We shouldn't look out of sync when things don't go perfectly to plan or the script. We shouldn't be handicapped on 3rd and 8+ yards. For the personnel on this team and having an offensive minded coach you would expect our 3rd down conversions to be 40%+. You would never suspect we'd go 6 quarters without scoring a touchdown against bottom half or medicore defenses, etc.

So someone imitating or taking points from the things we actually do well on offense does not erase the issues at hand. That is the point. Yay they imitated the one thing we do excellent in. Great. But now we earned 1st place schedules so will have to perform against these top tier teams consistently. Not showing up offensively one moment and completely becoming a field goal-a-thon the next won't cut it. Whether it is playcalling, personnel usage, or scheme, something needs to change to keep the team consistent which last year definitely was not the case especially after the bye.

It's as simple as if you want to go to the next level (which they do and fans should too) then you have to raise your level of play.

There's a difference between picking up some pointers and modeling parts of your approach on something.

Does our offense need to perform better? Yes, it does.

But the question is: what's broken? Is it the OFFENSE -- which to me is the playbook and its underlying scheme and concept? Is it the playcalling? Or is it the execution of the plays?

For me, the offense is fine. There's nothing wrong with our fundamental approach.

I also don't have any problem with the conservative approach to play-calling. I know that's what's rubbing most people the wrong way. Most people here want something more vertical and more showy.

My problem with the offense last year was the execution by the players. Newton/Caldwel/Jones on the right side hurt us. Especially down the stretch. Arian Foster seemed a lot easier to tackle last year than in previous years. Posey and Martin didn't develop as quickly as we would have liked. We missed Dreessen's blocking. We're still missing Leach's blocking. We need to fix all that.

One thing you've got to remember is that... we played a first place schedule last year and we went 12-4. We beat the two other first place teams because of that schedule (Broncos and Ravens. I didn't include the Pats because we played their entire division.)

kingtexan
04-11-2013, 11:54 AM
Not sure why the debate about imitating some other team. One time someone decided to throw the ball instead of run it, and after that others also threw the ball. It worked out ok.

Hervoyel
04-11-2013, 01:21 PM
LOL that you just tried to spin a negative out of a comparison to one of the greatest (and most innovative) coaches in NFL history.

Sign me up for the Tom Landry Syndrome of 18 playoffs in 20 years. What a joke.


I get what he's saying though. "TSL" if you will is fine provided you're as good a coach as Tom Landry was. It's not such a good thing if your coach isn't nearly that level.

Sign me up for it too. 18 playoffs in 20 years sounds great. First we need a Tom Landry though. Not sure I see one of those at Reliant Stadium.

Mr teX
04-11-2013, 01:41 PM
No. It doesn't.

Using the ZBS isn't imitating the Texans UNLESS you look at and study the way the Texans do it as your example and use the Texans' approach as your template.

The Colts under Manning ran a lot of zone concept runs but they weren't imitating the Texans' way of doing it. The Ravens had plays with zone concepts but before Leach taught them our way of doing it, they weren't imitating us.

We don't own the ZBS and we don't own the West Coast Offense but we run a particular and specific variation of each. If a team studies us and then MODELS their offensive approach off of ours, then that's imitation.



You didn't say that but someone else in the thread did.



There's a difference between picking up some pointers and modeling parts of your approach on something.

Does our offense need to perform better? Yes, it does.

But the question is: what's broken? Is it the OFFENSE -- which to me is the playbook and its underlying scheme and concept? Is it the playcalling? Or is it the execution of the plays?

For me, the offense is fine. There's nothing wrong with our fundamental approach.

I also don't have any problem with the conservative approach to play-calling. I know that's what's rubbing most people the wrong way. Most people here want something more vertical and more showy.

My problem with the offense last year was the execution by the players. Newton/Caldwel/Jones on the right side hurt us. Especially down the stretch. Arian Foster seemed a lot easier to tackle last year than in previous years. Posey and Martin didn't develop as quickly as we would have liked. We missed Dreessen's blocking. We're still missing Leach's blocking. We need to fix all that.

One thing you've got to remember is that... we played a first place schedule last year and we went 12-4. We beat the two other first place teams because of that schedule (Broncos and Ravens. I didn't include the Pats because we played their entire division.)

I'd give the 1st place schedule more creedence if it factored more into our schedule..In truth, that aspect only accounts for 20% of our total schedule and only 2 of our losses came from that bracket of teams. Now there's a case to be made that we likely would've lost to Denver if we played them later in the season as opposed to the beginning when they were a completely different team but of course that didn't happen and we lucked up in that regard. It also has no bearing on our other 2 other losses which came from teams that truthfully shouldn't have been on the same field as us much less dominate our offense to the tune of no touchdowns in 6 or so quarters.......on our home field...............in consecutive games............going into the playoffs like they did.

& that to me signifies a problem...clearly an adjustment was made by our opponents...an adjustment that didn't seem to alarm Kubiak and he just kept on doing what we were doing at the beginning of the season..."we just need better execution"....Ok, Kubes but every team in the league can say the same thing every week since 99% of teams in the league don't execute 100% week in week out. You think you might want to start calling some "out of the box/ more aggressive" type of plays to take some pressure off your bread & butter plays? Maybe open it up a little more? Doesn't every coaching staff have someone on thier staff who monitors tendencies in playcalling so as to avoid these very things?

76Texan
04-11-2013, 01:43 PM
I get what he's saying though. "TSL" if you will is fine provided you're as good a coach as Tom Landry was. It's not such a good thing if your coach isn't nearly that level.

Sign me up for it too. 18 playoffs in 20 years sounds great. First we need a Tom Landry though. Not sure I see one of those at Reliant Stadium.

Well, Landry's Cowboys didn't get to the play-offs until his seventh year, so Kubiak is ahead of him on that front. :kitten:

The Pencil Neck
04-11-2013, 02:40 PM
Not sure why the debate about imitating some other team. One time someone decided to throw the ball instead of run it, and after that others also threw the ball. It worked out ok.

Grantland says our offense is outdated.

TKyss (I think) says that it's funny that not too long ago, lots of people were looking at and studying our offense and imitating some of the things we do and now we're outdated. Basically, we're not outdated.

Then tru80texan said that no one was imitating us.

And I jumped in because I've heard, several times over the years, teams say that they're studying how we do certain things to try to steal them for their own offenses.

And then there's a big debate that seems to revolve around the definition of the word "imitate."

76Texan
04-11-2013, 03:24 PM
There are still a lot of teams running their own variety of the WCO; successful teams at that: Niners, Packers, Seahawks to name a few.
The Seahawks drafted Wilson for that reason; as he ran the offense at N.C.St. (and a mix of WCO/Pro system at Wisconsin.)

Then you have the Dolphins, the Eagles, the Titans, the Raiders, the Vikings and the Cardinals that I know of.

Jay Gruden, the Bengals OC, has root in the WCO under his brother Jon; he was with Shanahan for a little while too.

The Browns have been running the WCO, but will probably make the change this year while the Cowboys might opt to the exact opposite.

Andy Reid is certainly going to bring it to his new job; even the Jets and the Bills are said to be getting ready to make the change to the WCO this upcoming year.

Oh, and the Colts made the change to the WCO last year and drafted Luck (who runs it at Stanford.)


Yeah, it's an outdated offense alright! :chef:

76Texan
04-11-2013, 03:30 PM
Even with Kirk Cousins in the line-up, the Redskins hardly went to the option-read last year.

I just read that he's working hard on it during the off-season because he doesn't want the offense to be "limited" with him not being a running threat.

That tells you Shannahan adapted the option read to utilize RG III skill set.
If he doesn't have a mobile guy like RGIII, one would think he would have stayed with the more traditional approach.

thunderkyss
04-13-2013, 04:27 PM
Agreed.

That's a huge problem around here: Fans looking at Schaub's stats, showing Schaub's numbers to AJ (completions, yards, etc.), talking about our rankings on offense...all of it, they say, is some sort of indicator that all is well and we just need this or that to jump to the next level.

I don't want to talk about stats. In the NBA, for a few years, the Phoenix Suns had crazy insane numbers...unbeatable, can't keep up with them, they out-hustle defenses, they're built for speed, blah blah blah...and yet they never won a title. Were never even really close, actually. So the STATS game is not where titles are won. And that's Kubiak's overriding problem, as well.

With Gary Kubiak, you get the sense that he thinks his offense and his guys--if they perform the way they should--it should end up with the good guys (Texans) winning the game. He's built an offense, he's stocked it with his guys, he's loyal to his guys, and if those guys will just run the plays and do what he wants (how he wants it) then it should add up to a victory.

When watching A Football Life: Tom Landry, the entire underlying framework of what Tom Landry was about was his idea that IF his players would just run his plays, the way they should run them based on how Landry wanted them to, then they would win. The interviews with players echoed this over and over, to the point that the players said "You really honestly felt like you were just a drone. Like you needed to just do what Coach Landry said and that's all there was to victory. Do it his way, every time, and the system would be unbeatable." I'm paraphrasing there, but you get the drift. When I saw that documentary, it really turned on a light bulb for me in terms of what Kubiak's biggest downfall is. He has a form of Tom Landry Syndrome, the idea that you've built the perfect offense and you've got the perfect guys for it...now all that needs to happen is for them to do it the way you want them to do it and it means victory on Sundays.

In a way, it's worked. But only in the sense that it's enabled us to beat teams who are either at our level of talent or teams below us. When we have to play "up" to teams such as GB and NE, we can't. Those are the games where crafty, innovative, and just plain "nasty" head coaching has to push the guys over the top against teams like Patriots and Packers.

In essence, it kinda' sucks that Gary basically has this philosophy that his system and his guys are good enough to win every Sunday just on the merits of their knowledge and execution of his system. How many times have we seen this team come off a bye week, the past however many seasons now, and they looks flat? They had two weeks to rest and get ready for a team and they blew it. How about the fact that you got your ass spanked by the Patriots in the reg season and the best you could manage in the playoffs against them was to at least not look as pathetic as you did before? How can you continue to call plays that don't work, give up on 3rd and long ROUTINELY, and how do you not fire a really really bad special teams coach?

At the end of the day, your numbers can look good but you're not really achieving anything of true factual significance. Ask Barry Sanders about all his crazy stats he had; ask him if he wanted those stats or HOF entry or a Super Bowl Title the most. I bet he'd say Super Bowl Title.

Stats are fun. But stats do not win championships. Good coaches, good players, and making your own luck DO win championships. Gary needs to dig deep into the suitcase of courage and start watching game-deciding field goals, start letting his guys compete on 3rd and long, and make changes at positions such as special teams...but he won't. He even had to have his hand forced on firing Frank Bush, basically being advised that if he stayed with Frank in 2011 and things stayed bad that it would be everyone's head on the chopping block for having stuck with his guy.

And it pisses me off. We finally have a competent defense under a real d-coord and it's being wasted. All because Gary values his ideology more than the overriding concept of TEAM FOOTBALL. Sure, he takes the blame for his guys' failures. That's nice. Sure, he sticks with underperforming coaches because he wants them to work out of a rut and get back to winning form. That's nice. Sure, he has some decent stats every year. That's nice.

But nice doesn't win hardware in February. And I think that's what Michael Lombardi and others mean when they say the Texans are soft, or that we're posers and phonies. We're the Phoenix Suns of the NFL.

tlDr;


but I quoted the whole damn thing.

Texans_Chick
04-14-2013, 04:44 PM
Total snaps for the season don't truly capture Kubiak's conservative playcalling within a game...There are too many variables that have to be factored in looking at it this way.... Better insight into that would be to see his play breakdown based on down and distance for the first down.

For 2012, a year with a better defense than in pre-Wade years, the Texans were very aggressive on 1st down in the first half of games ending up with the 2nd most passes on first down in the first half of games (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&team_id=&opp_id=&game_type=R&playoff_round=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=1&quarter=2&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=1&ytg_gtlt=gt&yds_to_go=&yg_gtlt=gt&yards=&is_first_down=-1&fp_gtlt=gt&fp_tm_opp=team&fp_ydline=&type=PASS&type=RUSH&is_turnover=-1&is_scoring=-1&no_play=0&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&margin_min=&margin_max=&order_by=yards).

Only team that passed more on first down in the first half of games was the Patriots. The ratio of passes to runs on first down in the first half of games was far above average for the Texans.

In the second half of games, the Patriots were #1 in number of rushing plays. The Texans were 7th (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&team_id=&opp_id=&game_type=R&playoff_round=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=3&quarter=4&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=1&ytg_gtlt=gt&yds_to_go=&yg_gtlt=gt&yards=&is_first_down=-1&fp_gtlt=gt&fp_tm_opp=team&fp_ydline=&type=PASS&type=RUSH&is_turnover=-1&is_scoring=-1&no_play=0&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&margin_min=&margin_max=&order_by=yards).

Most of the teams passing a lot on first down in the second half of games are teams that need to because they are losing.

So just because some people repeatedly say that the Texans are "run first" or are "overly conservative" doesn't mean it is true. I think sometimes people have unrealistic expectations relative to what NFL football just is. You know, like sometimes even good offenses punt. Or maybe a team that has a ton of turnover on the offensive line and injuries of their TEs and stuff may sometimes struggle with their execution.

thunderkyss
04-14-2013, 05:56 PM
Or maybe a team that has a ton of turnover on the offensive line and injuries of their TEs and stuff may sometimes struggle with their execution.

Well, one way or another, that was their own doing. Wouldn't it have been nice to have kept Dressen & let Water go? It's not like Walter was Mr. Dependable or anything. The kids could've rotated through that WR2 spot.

I know, hindsight.

But at the same time, I have no problem saying the Texans (read Kubiak) screwed the pooch with the OL & TE thing in 2012. However, as bad as it was, Matt was well protected most of the year & Foster was among the league's leading rushers. 2nd in the AFC.

Which I think is a testament to his coaching. Even though I don't like the guy.

Texans_Chick
04-14-2013, 09:26 PM
Well, one way or another, that was their own doing. Wouldn't it have been nice to have kept Dressen & let Water go? It's not like Walter was Mr. Dependable or anything. The kids could've rotated through that WR2 spot.

I know, hindsight.

But at the same time, I have no problem saying the Texans (read Kubiak) screwed the pooch with the OL & TE thing in 2012. However, as bad as it was, Matt was well protected most of the year & Foster was among the league's leading rushers. 2nd in the AFC.

Which I think is a testament to his coaching. Even though I don't like the guy.

They tried to keep Dreessen. He's from Colorado. The Broncos of 2012 had sooooo much more cap space to play with. What were they supposed to do, kidnap him?

The Texans had THREE TE's in the top 15 in TE efficiency in early 2012. Three! You know how unusual that is?

And then OD got nicked a bit, and then there was the concussion of Graham that happened at a really bad time...right before you are going on the road to face the Patriots. And you already had such injury problems on the offensive line that Andrew Gardner is going to get snaps.

And with no Walter, they would likely be worse off in 2012. Guess who the most reliable WR was in training camp. Walter. Guess who's catch rate was in +60%? Walter. Guess who's catch rate was far below 60%? All the inexperienced wide receivers.

In 2013, the training wheels are off the WRs, for better or worse. Likely will be a position of inconsistency because that is how baby WRs typically are.

The Texans were not going to be able to match Briesel's offer though I wish they could have worked harder to make the Winston numbers work. They had to do their spending at center because center is not a place you want to rely on a rookie if you want to do anything. For that matter, Ryans could have been handy last year too--they took a gamble at LB, and a position of strength turned into a position of weakness.

And Matt was NOT well protected for the year. They had training wheels on that offense. Early in the year, he was getting tons of hits right at the throw that didn't count as sacks. They started having him get rid of the ball faster, and by the end of the year, with more injuries to the line, even the sack numbers went up.

Though Foster's total numbers were high as just a matter of touches, his efficiency per play went down, most troubling with run stuffs. The Texans are usually one of the best teams at not getting stuffed at the line, and last year they were in the bottom third which is unusual for them.

I am hoping if Greg Jones stays healthy, and with Schaub having a full training camp including OTAs/minicamp, the offense will look better. Run stuffs can't continue to happen, because this offense like most works best when down and distance stays sane.

The Pencil Neck
04-15-2013, 01:50 AM
They tried to keep Dreessen. He's from Colorado. The Broncos of 2012 had sooooo much more cap space to play with. What were they supposed to do, kidnap him?

The Texans had THREE TE's in the top 15 in TE efficiency in early 2012. Three! You know how unusual that is?

And then OD got nicked a bit, and then there was the concussion of Graham that happened at a really bad time...right before you are going on the road to face the Patriots. And you already had such injury problems on the offensive line that Andrew Gardner is going to get snaps.

And with no Walter, they would likely be worse off in 2012. Guess who the most reliable WR was in training camp. Walter. Guess who's catch rate was in +60%? Walter. Guess who's catch rate was far below 60%? All the inexperienced wide receivers.

In 2013, the training wheels are off the WRs, for better or worse. Likely will be a position of inconsistency because that is how baby WRs typically are.

The Texans were not going to be able to match Briesel's offer though I wish they could have worked harder to make the Winston numbers work. They had to do their spending at center because center is not a place you want to rely on a rookie if you want to do anything. For that matter, Ryans could have been handy last year too--they took a gamble at LB, and a position of strength turned into a position of weakness.

And Matt was NOT well protected for the year. They had training wheels on that offense. Early in the year, he was getting tons of hits right at the throw that didn't count as sacks. They started having him get rid of the ball faster, and by the end of the year, with more injuries to the line, even the sack numbers went up.

Though Foster's total numbers were high as just a matter of touches, his efficiency per play went down, most troubling with run stuffs. The Texans are usually one of the best teams at not getting stuffed at the line, and last year they were in the bottom third which is unusual for them.

I am hoping if Greg Jones stays healthy, and with Schaub having a full training camp including OTAs/minicamp, the offense will look better. Run stuffs can't continue to happen, because this offense like most works best when down and distance stays sane.

Man.

I miss you when you're not posting here.

deucetx
04-15-2013, 08:48 AM
For 2012, a year with a better defense than in pre-Wade years, the Texans were very aggressive on 1st down in the first half of games ending up with the 2nd most passes on first down in the first half of games (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&team_id=&opp_id=&game_type=R&playoff_round=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=1&quarter=2&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=1&ytg_gtlt=gt&yds_to_go=&yg_gtlt=gt&yards=&is_first_down=-1&fp_gtlt=gt&fp_tm_opp=team&fp_ydline=&type=PASS&type=RUSH&is_turnover=-1&is_scoring=-1&no_play=0&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&margin_min=&margin_max=&order_by=yards).

Only team that passed more on first down in the first half of games was the Patriots. The ratio of passes to runs on first down in the first half of games was far above average for the Texans.

In the second half of games, the Patriots were #1 in number of rushing plays. The Texans were 7th (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&team_id=&opp_id=&game_type=R&playoff_round=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=3&quarter=4&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=1&ytg_gtlt=gt&yds_to_go=&yg_gtlt=gt&yards=&is_first_down=-1&fp_gtlt=gt&fp_tm_opp=team&fp_ydline=&type=PASS&type=RUSH&is_turnover=-1&is_scoring=-1&no_play=0&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&margin_min=&margin_max=&order_by=yards).

Most of the teams passing a lot on first down in the second half of games are teams that need to because they are losing.

So just because some people repeatedly say that the Texans are "run first" or are "overly conservative" doesn't mean it is true. I think sometimes people have unrealistic expectations relative to what NFL football just is. You know, like sometimes even good offenses punt. Or maybe a team that has a ton of turnover on the offensive line and injuries of their TEs and stuff may sometimes struggle with their execution.

Looking at the post you quoted, that was not what he was stating. He was pointing to Kubiak's approach to obtaining a first down and breaking down the down and distance during this play calling (i.e. what did we do on 3rd and 8, etc). Not the actual playcalling on first down.

GP
04-15-2013, 12:02 PM
If your QB can't handle being tough situations, and overcoming them, then nothing else matters.

Being a fan of the Texans has been an eye-opening process for me. This team started at ground zero, so we've been able to see 10 years of "construction" with this team.

It's like making a water filter. The first few years here, it was like the first level of the filter: Huge chunks of rocks that filters out the smallish particles (bits of rock found in the water). The next few years was like the second level of the filter that strains out the even smaller particles out of the water. Then the third level is sand, removing tiny almost microscopic particles. Finally the last level is the charcoal the purifies the water.

All of this has served to show me that you can have a great coach, a great defensive coach, a great offense system and defense system, and your owner can be committed to spending in FA and taking a chance on maybe pushing the cap space too closely. But at the end of the day, in the NFL, the quarterback position is the most important position of all.

On that front, we're screwed. And it doesn't help that we have Stats Mania around here. Great, crunch the numbers...but at the end of the day, a really solidly performing QB (no matter what stats or overall team injury situation, good or bad, he finds himself in at the moment) he's got to produce in the playoffs.

We've enjoyed lots of layers to this filtering process. But the last level, the charcoal, it's crucial to making sure the water is potable for consumption.

There is a part of me that would love to see the Texans take a risk and grab a guy like EJ Manuel in the first and make camp an open competition at QB. There needs to be old-fashioned competition for the QB spot, not just giving to a guy based on loyalty, stats, and making sure the status quo "locker room" stays the same. We need a guy who can move around and extend plays with his feet. Schaub has plateau'd and I really thought we were all smart enough 10 years into this thing to see it, acknowledge it, and move on from it. But apparently not.

Instead, we just need give it the old college try again. We're "learning to win, in time," as the article headline pointed out. LOL.

Vinny
04-15-2013, 12:09 PM
This slow, plodding offense rang up 1500+ yards from AJ but 4 TD's. That's kinda mind blowing in itself... Kubiak openly stated that they weren't going to throw to Foster as much since he was carrying the ball so much early in the season...brilliant move there coach. I'm sure Bill Belicheck does this all the time. When the team needed a quick score vs the Pats after the Manning return early in the 4th quarter we managed an 8 minute - 37 yard scoring drive (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2112762&postcount=1919) to kill any chance of a comeback. Nothing wrong with this offense....cough, cough.

Brisco_County
04-15-2013, 01:13 PM
The Texans had THREE TE's in the top 15 in TE efficiency in early 2012. Three! You know how unusual that is?

And then OD got nicked a bit, and then there was the concussion of Graham that happened at a really bad time...right before you are going on the road to face the Patriots. And you already had such injury problems on the offensive line that Andrew Gardner is going to get snaps.

Off topic, but this also supports LZ's case for the Texans taking Eifert.