PDA

View Full Version : Let's settle it...Carr vs Harrington


Huge
06-24-2005, 09:11 AM
(Poster's note: Let me start off by saying that I don't believe Harrington is the better QB. I'd take Carr on just about every day except when he's off. This is more of a question as to why Harrington is perceived as the one who's not "lived up to his 3rd overall selection" while Carr is apparently on his way to the Hall of Fame.)


I know it's a dead horse but another article (http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/8446751) has come up on NFL.com and I just don't get it.

From the article...
David Carr, taken first overall by the expansion Texans, started all 16 games as a rookie and was sacked a league-high 76 times. Carr has improved each year, setting career highs in completion percentage (61.2), yards (3,351), touchdowns (16) and quarterback rating (83.5) en route to leading the Texans to a franchise best 7-9 record in 2004.

Joey Harrington has been slow to develop in Detroit. With recent free-agent acquisition Jeff Garcia waiting in the wings, this season may be the last for Harrington to live up to his No. 3 overall selection. Harrington's cause should be helped by a bevy of young playmakers. The Lions have used their last three No. 1 picks on receivers Charles Rogers, Roy Williams and Mike Williams, and running back Kevin Jones led all rookies with 1,113 rush yards in 2004.

Carr set career highs last year - 61.2%, 3,351 yards, 16 TDs, 83.5 rating
Harrington set career highs last year - 56%, 3,047 yards, 19 TDs, 77.5 rating

Carr (and his numbers) have improved each year (rating only) - 62.8, 69.5, 83.5
Harrington (and his numbers) have improved each year (rating only) - 59.9, 63.9, 77.5

Carr leads the Texans to a "franchise best" 7-9 record.
Harrington leads the Lions to a 6-10 record.

Carr's record as a starter - 14-29.
Harrington's record as a starter - 14-30.

Just based on these numbers (I'll post more when they're called for), how is it that Harrington needs to validate his 3rd overall selection while Carr is seemingly getting a free ride from the media?

Anybody?

PapaL
06-24-2005, 09:16 AM
Circumstances - David came to a new team where everyone was new, Joey went to "established" team and he was the new guy. David should have put up worse numbers, but didn't.

texasguy346
06-24-2005, 09:37 AM
I pretty much agree with what LCROD said. Carr came to an expansion franchise with not much on it at all. That's not to say that Joey had it easy, but he came to an established franchise. They had veteran personnel in place, and weren't left relying on other teams cast offs and waiver wire type of pick ups. In our first season McKinney was the best O-Lineman that we had on our team, and much of the talk now is how he is the weakest link on our line. That shows a marked improvement in the level of talent on the OLine. Joey didn't come into an ideal situation. He came to a team that had become familiar with losing and the fans were in search of a savior. All this from a team that has had a pretty bad history at picking starting QBs. I really think that you'll start to see the media be more critical of Carr since this is now our 4th season. We've got the same kind of depth that many other NFL teams have now, and excusing Carr for not having any talent around him is no longer accurate. I think Carr will make yet another step forward this season, and will start to prove his worth as a #1 overall pick in 2002. Harrington certainly has everything in place to succeed as well. He's got a trio of WRs that any QB would be envious of when they're all healthy, and he's got a skilled TE as well as a talented and promising young RB. His O-Line has been pretty solid throughout his development, and he has no more excuses either. I think if everyone stays healthy that Harrington will show improvement too (How could he not with that type of offense?), but I doubt that will be enough to ease concerns of Lions fans unless he helps them make a playoff run.

blockhead83
06-24-2005, 09:59 AM
Yea, I think Harrington's woes are receiving hype now because they've concentrated so much on providing him with weapons. He has 3 high first rounders to throw the ball to, a solid up and coming runner, and a shiny new tight end who's a great threat. Carr has AJ and Davis, the rest of the guys don't get too much attention from the media. If Harrington can't show good production leading the offense with the guys he has now, he may not be cut out for his role in Detroit.

Let me say that I don't think Carr has performed all that much better than Harrington, and both of them were drafted into poor starting situations. They both have the chance to be good QB's, Harrington just needs to put it all together now, and Carr just needs some time to throw the damn ball.

TexSon
06-24-2005, 10:08 AM
I agree that Carr playing for an expansion team, while Harrington plays for an established team (no matter how bad they were) gives Carr more of the benefit of the doubt. Also, Carr's first year he was basically a tackling dummy, and things really have not gotten a whole lot better for him. Yet, he never bad mouths his teamates or coaches, or complains to the media. I think this has bought him some leeway.
But I think the biggest reason for Carr being viewed as the better QB, is because of the front office and fans reactions. Our front office and coaches have continually expressed total confidence in Carr, and have repeatedly said he is right on track. Harrington's, meanwhile, have been wishy washy and have not backed their QB consistently.
I think how the fans view their QB has a lot to do with it as well. Carr is well liked in Houston, and has the type of good natured family man personality that goes over well here. Harrington does not fit so well in blue collar Detroit. The fans have never really embraced him there, and that results in a poorer view of him league wide. If his own fans don't like him, how good could he possible be?
Now while these factors don't really have anything to do with on field production, I do believe they play a huge part in how a QB is viewed. Let's face it, most of these sports writers have not seen more than a couple of games from both teams, so their opinions are formed by how the QBs are viewed, and how they are viewed begins with their own fans and front office.
That said, I think Harrington can be a starting QB, but I don't think he will ever be anything exceptional. Carr on the other hand I believe has the potential, temperament, and tools to be a special player.

Ihategeeks
06-24-2005, 10:44 AM
Joey came to a Lions team that was cutting all of it's fat after Barry Left. And off 2-14 season.

If the Texans didn't get the expansion default #1 pick, the Lions would have had the #2 pick in the draft.

The Expansion team thing doesn't really mean much, The Lions had the worst team in 60 years of Lions Football. I'd call that a wash.


There is no debate about which one is better. Right now, they both havn't lived up to their status.

But the choice on who will do best next year? I am going with Joey, he would have to be a bust of Tim Couch Ryan Leaf levels NOT to do well next year with all that help.

From Famine to Feast for Joey, I bet he goes to bed with a big stupid grin on his face until the first game.


We could sit here and debate which is better all day long, both QB's have strengths and weakness, both QB's havn't won very much.

Both QB's had a crappy casts their first 3 years, with Carr having an egde in healthy skill players.

gwallaia
06-24-2005, 10:48 AM
Not again.

:confused: :confused:

texasguy346
06-24-2005, 11:48 AM
Not again.

:confused: :confused:

I felt the same way, and it's admirable tha Huge included "Let's settle it..." in the title of the thread but we all know this debate will be an ongoing thing for many seasons to come.

F-minus67
06-24-2005, 12:11 PM
Another reason why Carr doesn't get it as bad as Harrington is that Carr has won more that Harrington. I mean the only time the Texans picked before the Lions was when they picked Carr.

canadiantexan
06-24-2005, 12:27 PM
But the choice on who will do best next year? I am going with Joey, he would have to be a bust of Tim Couch Ryan Leaf levels NOT to do well next year with all that help.


I'll remember you said that for when Garcia takes over in week 7.
I see Harringtons next season going like this...... :goodnight

Carr Bombed
06-24-2005, 12:40 PM
Its really quite simple. Lion fans like to bring up stats except for this one. 140 to 53. Carr has been sacked almost a hundred more times and the best Joey could do is put up #s comparable to his. Switch those Stats and think about it. Joey gets sacked 140 times and his inacurate passes only get worse, it would be devestating to his production. Carr has managed to stay afloat and his production #s have been able to absord those sack #s. Regardless of all those sacks and pressure he has been able to reach the 60% mark. While despite all of the protection Harrington has had, especialy in his first two seasons could not. Harrington is going to have to have a probowl year right out of the gate to keep his job. Steve M. isn't going to take anything less. You could see it all over his face in his last interview on Total Access. When asked about Joey he said the political correct thing and said what he had to say, but when asked about Garcia, his expression totally changed. There is no doubt in my mind who is going to be the starting qb at about week 5. Steve didn't draft Joey and Garcia wasn't brought in to be the back up

Lucky
06-24-2005, 12:58 PM
...Regardless of all those sacks and pressure he has been able to reach the 60% mark. While despite all of the protection Harrington has had, especialy in his first two seasons could not...
I don't agree with you analysis. Harrington's lower sack total & lower completion % can be partially explained by his willingness to throw the ball away in the face of the pass rush. Carr is more likely to hold on to the ball and try to make a play. While I do believe Joey has gotten better pass protection than Carr, I don't think his blocking has been stellar.

On the flip side, Harrington's quick trigger has brought his toughness into question. What this tells me is that when you lose, critics will find something to complain about. If Carr & Harrington's teams start to win, most of their critics will go away.

nunusguy
06-24-2005, 01:09 PM
He has 3 high first rounders to throw the ball to, a solid up and coming runner, and a shiny new tight end who's a great threat. Carr has AJ and Davis, the rest of the guys don't get too much attention from the media.
The Lions have got to have one of the greatest collections of young, WRs
ever assembled on a single team - I'm sure DC would kill to have any one
of those guys to play alongside AJ. And TE, this is the most underserved position on the Texans team.

Carr Bombed
06-24-2005, 01:12 PM
I don't agree with you analysis. Harrington's lower sack total & lower completion % can be partially explained by his willingness to throw the ball away in the face of the pass rush. Carr is more likely to hold on to the ball and try to make a play. While I do believe Joey has gotten better pass protection than Carr, I don't think his blocking has been stellar.

On the flip side, Harrington's quick trigger has brought his toughness into question. What this tells me is that when you lose, critics will find something to complain about. If Carr & Harrington's teams start to win, most of their critics will go away.

He was sacked under 20 times in 2 seasons. His protection has been there. His problem is he is very inacurate. If it wasn't for Roy Williams making some stellar catches on underthrown balls one of them could of possibly been a int. He also has played in a division that has had 2 teams who can't decide who wants to win the division and plays in the NFC at the weakest it has ever been. Last year sub .500 teams were still in contention until the last week, thats pathetic. Other than last season the Titans and Colts have been two of the best teams in all of football and we play in the AFC which is loaded from top to bottom and has the leagues best defenses. Harrington has been given every chance to succeed, with FOUR #1 draft picks spent on offense the last 3 Drafts. Carr has had only ONE draft pick spent on his side of the ball since he came into the league.

Lucky
06-24-2005, 01:27 PM
He was sacked under 20 times in 2 seasons. His protection has been there. His problem is he is very inacurate.
So you're saying that Harrington doesn't have a propensity for throwing the ball away? I'm aware of Harrington's sack numbers (which rose to 36 after Mariucci implored Joey to hold on to the ball longer). What I'm saying is that if Harrington's sack totals go up, it doesn't mean (as you suggested) his completion % would go down. In fact, I'd expect it to rise.

As far as how many #1 picks has had to work with, Joey hasn't had Rogers much over the past 2 seasons (and it's questionable if he ever will). And Kevin Jones wasn't fully incorporated in the Lions offense until the 2nd half of the '04 season (FF freaks take note). Obviously, Harrington will have the weapons in '05, but I wouldn't say his cup was runneth over in previous seasons.

PapaL
06-24-2005, 01:40 PM
The Expansion team thing doesn't really mean much, The Lions had the worst team in 60 years of Lions Football. I'd call that a wash.......
Both QB's had a crappy casts their first 3 years, with Carr having an egde in healthy skill players.

I disagree completely. The worst team in 60 years is still better than the no team Houston had. It is safe to say that Detroit had a better roster from top to bottom than Houston had when the QB's were drafted.
Carr having an edge on healthy skill players? How about Joey having an edge on better players across the board (at that time). If your backups are not better than an expansion teams starters in the first few years, that bad on the "established" team. Switch the 2 QB's and David flourishes faster in Detroit and Joey never makes out of the 1st season.

Carr Bombed
06-24-2005, 01:41 PM
So you're saying that Harrington doesn't have a propensity for throwing the ball away? I'm aware of Harrington's sack numbers (which rose to 36 after Mariucci implored Joey to hold on to the ball longer). What I'm saying is that if Harrington's sack totals go up, it doesn't mean (as you suggested) his completion % would go down. In fact, I'd expect it to rise.

As far as how many #1 picks has had to work with, Joey hasn't had Rogers much over the past 2 seasons (and it's questionable if he ever will). And Kevin Jones wasn't fully incorporated in the Lions offense until the 2nd half of the '04 season (FF freaks take note). Obviously, Harrington will have the weapons in '05, but I wouldn't say his cup was runneth over in previous seasons.

I'm not saying he doesn't have a propensiy for throwing the ball away. When I talk about inacurate passes I'm not talking about him throwing the ball away. I'm talking about him throwing inacurate passes. I'm saying he has played behind a much better line than Carr has, which he has. I remember in our game the announcers saying "Lots of time" or "Plenty of time", which are phrases I've never heard when Carr was under center. I really don't remember any draft analyst saying anything about the lions needing any lineman. While we were blasted for not taking one with our #1 pick. Yes Rodgers has been injured, but I just bring up the 4 draft picks as the willingness his front office has had to supply him with the tools he needed. Harrington has played behind a better Oline against weaker competition. I'm not rooting for the guy to fail or anything, I hope he can get it together next year, especialy with the weapons he is going to have at his disposel, cause if he doesn't it is going to get UUGGLLY!

Carr Bombed
06-24-2005, 01:50 PM
So you're saying that Harrington doesn't have a propensity for throwing the ball away? I'm aware of Harrington's sack numbers (which rose to 36 after Mariucci implored Joey to hold on to the ball longer). What I'm saying is that if Harrington's sack totals go up, it doesn't mean (as you suggested) his completion % would go down. In fact, I'd expect it to rise.

As far as how many #1 picks has had to work with, Joey hasn't had Rogers much over the past 2 seasons (and it's questionable if he ever will). And Kevin Jones wasn't fully incorporated in the Lions offense until the 2nd half of the '04 season (FF freaks take note). Obviously, Harrington will have the weapons in '05, but I wouldn't say his cup was runneth over in previous seasons.

Oh and if his sack total went up because he held on to the ball longer, which in theroy should of made his comp. % rise. It really didn't help his case much, his comp. % went up a whole .2%, again proving that he is a inacurate passer.

Huge
06-24-2005, 02:31 PM
Circumstances - David came to a new team where everyone was new, Joey went to "established" team and he was the new guy. David should have put up worse numbers, but didn't.

I can somewhat agree to this. But as the Lion fan pointed out, there's not much difference between joining an expansion team and joining a team that really blows (as the Lion's 2nd to last place finish in '01 would indicate).

And as the #1 overall pick compared to the #3 overall pick, the #1 overall pick should never be expected to put up worse numbers.

Yea, I think Harrington's woes are receiving hype now because they've concentrated so much on providing him with weapons. He has 3 high first rounders to throw the ball to, a solid up and coming runner, and a shiny new tight end who's a great threat. Carr has AJ and Davis, the rest of the guys don't get too much attention from the media. If Harrington can't show good production leading the offense with the guys he has now, he may not be cut out for his role in Detroit.

Let me say that I don't think Carr has performed all that much better than Harrington, and both of them were drafted into poor starting situations. They both have the chance to be good QB's, Harrington just needs to put it all together now, and Carr just needs some time to throw the damn ball.

texasguy346 I pretty much agree with what LCROD said. Carr came to an expansion franchise with not much on it at all. That's not to say that Joey had it easy, but he came to an established franchise. They had veteran personnel in place, and weren't left relying on other teams cast offs and waiver wire type of pick ups. In our first season McKinney was the best O-Lineman that we had on our team, and much of the talk now is how he is the weakest link on our line. That shows a marked improvement in the level of talent on the OLine. Joey didn't come into an ideal situation. He came to a team that had become familiar with losing and the fans were in search of a savior. All this from a team that has had a pretty bad history at picking starting QBs. I really think that you'll start to see the media be more critical of Carr since this is now our 4th season. We've got the same kind of depth that many other NFL teams have now, and excusing Carr for not having any talent around him is no longer accurate. I think Carr will make yet another step forward this season, and will start to prove his worth as a #1 overall pick in 2002. Harrington certainly has everything in place to succeed as well. He's got a trio of WRs that any QB would be envious of when they're all healthy, and he's got a skilled TE as well as a talented and promising young RB. His O-Line has been pretty solid throughout his development, and he has no more excuses either. I think if everyone stays healthy that Harrington will show improvement too (How could he not with that type of offense?), but I doubt that will be enough to ease concerns of Lions fans unless he helps them make a playoff run.

Here's where I introduce more numbers:

People have pointed out that the Lions drafted Charles Rogers, Roy Williams and now Mike Williams.

Well so far, Mike Williams has yet to see the field for the Lions. So we can't blame Harrington for not completing any passes to him. Charles Rogers has played a grand total of 6 games while catching 3 TDs. Roy Williams has played in 12 games while catching 8 TDs. That's a total of 18 games combined. Andre Johnson has played in 32 games.

And if you take away the 11 TDs that Harrington has thrown to Rogers and Williams, he still has more TDs (37) than Carr (34).

I agree that Carr playing for an expansion team, while Harrington plays for an established team (no matter how bad they were) gives Carr more of the benefit of the doubt. Also, Carr's first year he was basically a tackling dummy, and things really have not gotten a whole lot better for him. Yet, he never bad mouths his teamates or coaches, or complains to the media. I think this has bought him some leeway.
But I think the biggest reason for Carr being viewed as the better QB, is because of the front office and fans reactions. Our front office and coaches have continually expressed total confidence in Carr, and have repeatedly said he is right on track. Harrington's, meanwhile, have been wishy washy and have not backed their QB consistently.
I think how the fans view their QB has a lot to do with it as well. Carr is well liked in Houston, and has the type of good natured family man personality that goes over well here. Harrington does not fit so well in blue collar Detroit. The fans have never really embraced him there, and that results in a poorer view of him league wide. If his own fans don't like him, how good could he possible be?
Now while these factors don't really have anything to do with on field production, I do believe they play a huge part in how a QB is viewed. Let's face it, most of these sports writers have not seen more than a couple of games from both teams, so their opinions are formed by how the QBs are viewed, and how they are viewed begins with their own fans and front office.
That said, I think Harrington can be a starting QB, but I don't think he will ever be anything exceptional. Carr on the other hand I believe has the potential, temperament, and tools to be a special player.

That's an outstanding take. And I agree with everything you just said.

Problem is, their performance on the field hasn't warranted such a difference in their perceptions thus far.

I felt the same way, and it's admirable tha Huge included "Let's settle it..." in the title of the thread but we all know this debate will be an ongoing thing for many seasons to come.

gwallaia Not again.

I understand what y'all are saying. But again, this isn't a comparison between the two players. I'm trying to get a feel on why there's such a difference in their perceptions.

Again, I just don't see it.

Another reason why Carr doesn't get it as bad as Harrington is that Carr has won more that Harrington. I mean the only time the Texans picked before the Lions was when they picked Carr.

See Vinny's post. And again:

Carr's record as a starting QB - 14-29
Harrington's record as a starting QB - 14-30

Carr is 1/2 a game better.

The Lions have got to have one of the greatest collections of young, WRs ever assembled on a single team - I'm sure DC would kill to have any one of those guys to play alongside AJ. And TE, this is the most underserved position on the Texans team.

Carr BombHe was sacked under 20 times in 2 seasons. His protection has been there. His problem is he is very inacurate. If it wasn't for Roy Williams making some stellar catches on underthrown balls one of them could of possibly been a int. He also has played in a division that has had 2 teams who can't decide who wants to win the division and plays in the NFC at the weakest it has ever been. Last year sub .500 teams were still in contention until the last week, thats pathetic. Other than last season the Titans and Colts have been two of the best teams in all of football and we play in the AFC which is loaded from top to bottom and has the leagues best defenses. Harrington has been given every chance to succeed, with FOUR #1 draft picks spent on offense the last 3 Drafts. Carr has had only ONE draft pick spent on his side of the ball since he came into the league.

But again, how many games has this "greatest collection of young WRs ever assembled" played? Sure the future is bright, but what has it gotten them so far?

In '02, Detroit's leading WR was Az-Zahir Hakim. In '03 it was Shawn Bryson. In '04 it was Roy Williams (in 12 games).

Not exactly the pretty picture of "FOUR #1 draft picks" that you're painting it to be.

I disagree completely. The worst team in 60 years is still better than the no team Houston had. It is safe to say that Detroit had a better roster from top to bottom than Houston had when the QB's were drafted. Carr having an edge on healthy skill players? How about Joey having an edge on better players across the board (at that time). If your backups are not better than an expansion teams starters in the first few years, that bad on the "established" team. Switch the 2 QB's and David flourishes faster in Detroit and Joey never makes out of the 1st season.

Who were the better players "across the board" for Detroit? Was there such a dramatic difference between the teams that both QBs can put up similar numbers yet be perceived so differently?


Thanks for the responses. I was hoping to get several unbiased opinions and so far there are a ton of them.

Ihategeeks
06-24-2005, 02:40 PM
I disagree completely. The worst team in 60 years is still better than the no team Houston had. It is safe to say that Detroit had a better roster from top to bottom than Houston had when the QB's were drafted.
Carr having an edge on healthy skill players? How about Joey having an edge on better players across the board (at that time). If your backups are not better than an expansion teams starters in the first few years, that bad on the "established" team. .

Starters still on the team from the 2002 season that are still starters now.

Harrington (rookie)
Rogers ( 2002 he was almost traded because of his poor play)
Raiola ( first good year was 2004)
Backus (solid )
Hall ( 2 sacks, 50 tackles)
Corey Schlsinger (best FB EVER *homer alert*)

Everyone else is either gone or at the bottom of a depth chart. Or gone, and not goen on other teams, alot of them are out of the league. Much like your team.

And even the players we did have, were on IR. You can tell me how much the Lions were talented. But that doesn't mean squat if they aren't on the field.

Switch the 2 QB's and David flourishes faster in Detroit and Joey never makes out of the 1st season

So David Carr would pick up the WCO faster than Joey, and he would learn to make his progressions faster than Joey, and learn to read a defense faster than Joey, and would overcome no rushing attack in 2003, and no WR's worth a damn for 02 , 03, and most of 04? David Carr wouldn't be effected by 2 OC changes(going on 3), and a Headcoaching Change.

And despite all the injuries, the piss poor team, he would flourish.

Ok, why hasn't he flourished in Houston? Grandmaster of overcoming adversity should have no problem.


This debate is incredibly stupid. Niether one of these guys has had a real team around them. And right now, we are trying to prove our points by proving our team is worse than the other guys. How sad is that?

Vinny said it best. The difference is 1 win. (and Joey has the H2H)

Both teams sucked ,niether QB has lived up to draft status. BOTH have alot to prove in 2005. But the Lions have the better team going into 2005. And I think Carr should get until his 5th year myself. I can't say the same for Joey, he has a complete compliment now

Lucky
06-24-2005, 03:35 PM
But again, this isn't a comparison between the two players. I'm trying to get a feel on why there's such a difference in their perceptions.
I think the difference is in the perception of toughness. Carr earned his Battle Red badge of courage his rookie season, setting the sack record & not missing a snap. Harrington has had the rap of not wanting to stand in the pocket and wait for his receivers. Then there's the Tony Siragusa "strawberries & chocolate" take that I don't even want to go into. As athletes, Carr is a plus athlete for a QB, Harrington is average. As shown, there's not much difference between them stat-wise. It's mainly perception about toughness & leadership ability, and Harrington can answer those questions if his team wins. Hey, Manning hates to get hit, but he's considered a great leader. Why? Because he wins.

Carr Bombed
06-24-2005, 03:42 PM
Not exactly the pretty picture of "FOUR #1 draft picks" that you're painting it to be.

That was one point out of many I have made and like I stated before it was to show the willingness his team has had to put grade A talent around him. Here's another point and might explain why his coaching staff has absolutely no confidence in him.

Harrington starts off relatively strong posting a 88.8 passer rating in the 1st quarter, but its all downhill from there. Football is a game about adjustments and after the adjustments made during halftime for whatever reason, wether he can't hold momentum or what he stinks comming out of the break and posted a absymal 49.6 passer rating in the 3rd quarter. Think about that for a second. What do you think that does to a head coach, after just taking your team to the locker room, prepping them on what they need to do to win the game and going over all your adjustments. Then you come out of the half and the guy whos supposed to be the leader of your team flat out lays an egg. only passing for 18 first downs all year with 10 of his 12 ints. comming in the second half.

Carr on the second hand is known to be a slow starter, but only gets stronger and stronger as the game goes one and is dead on in the second half posting a 95.3 passer rating comming out of the gate in the second half and only threw 4 ints all year in the second half. That is the reason why our coaching staff has confidence in him, they can count on him in the clutch.

GoPats
06-27-2005, 10:28 AM
While I have absolutely no facts to back this up, it seems to me the Texans don't get blown out quite as often as the Lions. Two QBs could have identical records, but how they get there can be completely different. Again, this is just an observation, and if I'm making this up entirely, my apologies.

rittenhouserobz
06-28-2005, 06:42 AM
I can't believe we are finally getting around to this debate. I have never seen this debate on the board before. :)

Switch Carr and Harrington and the Lions might have made the playoffs last year. Harrington would have had a meltdown much larger than Carr's meltdown. I believe they will both be doing a wonderful job for their teams in the near future. Carr has the edge.

Huge
06-28-2005, 10:14 AM
I think the difference is in the perception of toughness. Carr earned his Battle Red badge of courage his rookie season, setting the sack record & not missing a snap. Harrington has had the rap of not wanting to stand in the pocket and wait for his receivers. Then there's the Tony Siragusa "strawberries & chocolate" take that I don't even want to go into. As athletes, Carr is a plus athlete for a QB, Harrington is average. As shown, there's not much difference between them stat-wise. It's mainly perception about toughness & leadership ability, and Harrington can answer those questions if his team wins. Hey, Manning hates to get hit, but he's considered a great leader. Why? Because he wins.

I don't think anybody would question Carr's toughness. But proving he's tough doesn't prove Harrington isn't. Harrington has started the last 32 games for the Lions and has had well over 1,000 pass attempts during that time. He has taken his shots over the course of that span but hasn't missed a game. I won't question him getting rid of the ball early because I don't have enough evidence to support an argument. But you don't have that many pass attempts without getting hit. It just doesn't happen.

And again, why does Harrington need to answer those questions with wins when he has the same number of wins as Carr?

That was one point out of many I have made and like I stated before it was to show the willingness his team has had to put grade A talent around him.

What does it matter if the team has shown the willingness if the talent hasn't been around to help?

Harrington starts off relatively strong posting a 88.8 passer rating in the 1st quarter, but its all downhill from there. Football is a game about adjustments and after the adjustments made during halftime for whatever reason, wether he can't hold momentum or what he stinks comming out of the break and posted a absymal 49.6 passer rating in the 3rd quarter. Think about that for a second. What do you think that does to a head coach, after just taking your team to the locker room, prepping them on what they need to do to win the game and going over all your adjustments. Then you come out of the half and the guy whos supposed to be the leader of your team flat out lays an egg. only passing for 18 first downs all year with 10 of his 12 ints. comming in the second half.

Carr on the second hand is known to be a slow starter, but only gets stronger and stronger as the game goes one and is dead on in the second half posting a 95.3 passer rating comming out of the gate in the second half and only threw 4 ints all year in the second half. That is the reason why our coaching staff has confidence in him, they can count on him in the clutch.

Six one way, 1/2 a dozen the other.

The Texans can count on Carr to rally the team back after his poor performance in the first half.

The Lions can count on Harrington to get them out to a lead before his performance drops off.

Maybe the Texans wouldn't need to count on Carr in the clutch if he played better earlier in the game.

Either way, their stats are still pretty similar and their records as starters are almost dead even. How/When their teams took the lead and won the game is irrelevant.

While I have absolutely no facts to back this up, it seems to me the Texans don't get blown out quite as often as the Lions. Two QBs could have identical records, but how they get there can be completely different. Again, this is just an observation, and if I'm making this up entirely, my apologies.

Not sure what these numbers will illustrate but here goes:

Lions offense has averaged 18.2 PPG over the past 3 seasons.
Lions defense has averaged 24.6 PPG over the past 3 seasons.
Difference of 6.4 PPG.

Texans offense has averaged 16.2 PPG over the past 3 seasons.
Texans defense has averaged 22.4 PPG over the past 3 seasons.
Difference of 6.2 PPG.

How many times a team has been "blown out" would depend on your definition of a blow out I guess.

I can't believe we are finally getting around to this debate. I have never seen this debate on the board before.

Switch Carr and Harrington and the Lions might have made the playoffs last year. Harrington would have had a meltdown much larger than Carr's meltdown. I believe they will both be doing a wonderful job for their teams in the near future. Carr has the edge.

Again, this is not a debate to determine the better QB. I think anybody outside the Detroit area (and maybe even some inside it) would agree Carr is the better QB. That's not what this is about.

This is a comparison between the (minor) differences of their performances and production to the (major) differences of their perceptions from the media/fans.

You (by "you", I mean those that claim Harrington is on the hot seat while Carr is headed to Canton) can't argue that Carr has won more often because he hasn't.
You can't argue he's performed at a significantly higher level on the field because he hasn't.
You can't argue he's done it with lesser talent surrounding him because he hasn't.

But if you read enough articles (like the one I linked), you'd get an entirely different picture of the two QBs.

Agree or disagree?

Lucky
06-28-2005, 11:09 AM
And again, why does Harrington need to answer those questions with wins when he has the same number of wins as Carr?
Because the perception is (and perception, not "proof", is what we're talking about) that Harrington needs to play better for the Lions to win. The perception regarding Carr is that the team around him (specifically the offensive line) needs to play better for the Texans to win.

ArlingtonTexan
06-28-2005, 11:25 AM
Because the perception is (and perception, not "proof", is what we're talking about) that Harrington needs to play better for the Lions to win. The perception regarding Carr is that the team around him (specifically the offensive line) needs to play better for the Texans to win.

I think an argument, Huge has done a great job of laying the facts to support one, that both perceptions are at minimum too one-sided and even could be flat worng.

DomDavis has performed better than over the last two years than the whoever has been the Rb for the Lions (yes Kevin Jones is more talented). Andre Johnson has been to the probowl and not missed a game as the lead WR while both Charles Rogers and roy williams have shown flashes, but neither has played to Johnson nor has proven the ability to stay healthy (a little unfair on Roy williams)

Honestly, neither OL is very good, but i will give the Lions an edge there.

Hervoyel
06-28-2005, 12:09 PM
Who were the better players "across the board" for Detroit? Was there such a dramatic difference between the teams that both QBs can put up similar numbers yet be perceived so differently?


Thanks for the responses. I was hoping to get several unbiased opinions and so far there are a ton of them.

Minor point but how many players from the Lions team in 2002 are still on that team today. That should help to clarify how much better they were than the expansion team that began play that same year.

If the Lions have kept a large number of those players and gotten better then I'm thinking that makes the answer tend to lean towards Harrington starting with a better team than Carr. If the Lions have dumped personnel at the same rate as the Texans then it's a non-factor in my mind. I'd also limit my attention to the offensive side of the ball.

Lucky
06-28-2005, 02:15 PM
DomDavis has performed better than over the last two years than the whoever has been the Rb for the Lions (yes Kevin Jones is more talented). Andre Johnson has been to the probowl and not missed a game as the lead WR while both Charles Rogers and roy williams have shown flashes, but neither has played to Johnson nor has proven the ability to stay healthy (a little unfair on Roy williams)

Honestly, neither OL is very good, but i will give the Lions an edge there.
Well, if talking over the entire 3 year period, you'd have to give the Lions the edge in RB in '02. James Stewart was still a legit RB then, and James Allen & Wells were not. In year 2, Domanick was superior to anyone Detroit had. Last season, both Davis & Jones got off to slow starts but came on in the 2nd half. DD was the better receiver, but the Lions used Shawn Bryson effectively as the 3rd down back. Over the past 3 seasons, I'd call the RB position a push.

The Lions & Texans receivers were pretty much equal in '02. Equally bad. Andre Johnson was a big help for Carr the past 2 seasons, as Roy Williams was for Harrington last year. If the Texans could have utilized that advantage, I think Carr's numbers would be higher. But despite having superior weapons (er, weapon) to the Lions, Harrington has thrown 5 more passes per game than Carr has. What's the point of having an edge if you can't use it?

Of course the Texans can't throw more often because they've had statistically the worst pass blocking in the NFL over the past 3 seasons. The Lions O-line has been nothing to get excited about. Guys like Jeff Backus, Stocker McDougle, Dominic Raiola, Damien Woody, Ray Brown, & Eric Beverly aren't heading to the Pro Bowl. But they are (or were) legit NFL linemen. Joey never had to play behind Jimmy Herndon, Demingo Graham, Ryan Schau, Fred Weary, Milford Brown, Greg Randall, or Seth Wand. Those guys would have never played for the Lions. And to be fair to Detroit, Harrington has never been the most mobile QB in the league. The Lions O-line may have never been better than average while Harrington been there. But they've been head & shoulders over what David Carr has in front of him on Sundays.

Have either Harrington or Carr had enough tools to win on offense the past 3 years? Probably not. But given the fact that Joey has had an adequate line and Carr has not should give Harrington an edge in stats. Maybe the Texans’ line shores up in '05 & Carr closes the gap. But I will say this: If 32 NFL GMs were given the choice between David Carr & Joey Harrington, Carr would be selected 32 times. Carr is a better athlete than Harrington, has a stronger arm, and is more accurate. Even if things like intangibles were a wash (and I don't think they are), Carr would be the overwhelming choice. That doesn't mean that Joey Harrington is a bust or that he can't be a winning QB. He's not a bust and he can win with the Lions. I think Detroit should win 9 games this year, and if they don't heads should roll. Starting with Matt Millen's.

Huge
06-28-2005, 02:43 PM
Because the perception is (and perception, not "proof", is what we're talking about) that Harrington needs to play better for the Lions to win. The perception regarding Carr is that the team around him (specifically the offensive line) needs to play better for the Texans to win.

But is that perception (that Harrington needs to play better while Carr's team needs to play better) fair? Has Carr played that much better than Harrington for this perception to have merit? I don't think he has.

Minor point but how many players from the Lions team in 2002 are still on that team today. That should help to clarify how much better they were than the expansion team that began play that same year.

If the Lions have kept a large number of those players and gotten better then I'm thinking that makes the answer tend to lean towards Harrington starting with a better team than Carr. If the Lions have dumped personnel at the same rate as the Texans then it's a non-factor in my mind. I'd also limit my attention to the offensive side of the ball.

Whew...that'd be a toughie to come up with.

Well, if talking over the entire 3 year period, you'd have to give the Lions the edge in RB in '02. James Stewart was still a legit RB then, and James Allen & Wells were not. In year 2, Domanick was superior to anyone Detroit had. Last season, both Davis & Jones got off to slow starts but came on in the 2nd half. DD was the better receiver, but the Lions used Shawn Bryson effectively as the 3rd down back. Over the past 3 seasons, I'd call the RB position a push.

Agreed.

The Lions & Texans receivers were pretty much equal in '02. Equally bad. Andre Johnson was a big help for Carr the past 2 seasons, as Roy Williams was for Harrington last year. If the Texans could have utilized that advantage, I think Carr's numbers would be higher. But despite having superior weapons (er, weapon) to the Lions, Harrington has thrown 5 more passes per game than Carr has. What's the point of having an edge if you can't use it?

Agreed on '02. Having AJ for two seasons trumps Harrington having Roy Williams for one. I don't see the "superior weapon" advantage going to Detroit.

Of course the Texans can't throw more often because they've had statistically the worst pass blocking in the NFL over the past 3 seasons. The Lions O-line has been nothing to get excited about. Guys like Jeff Backus, Stocker McDougle, Dominic Raiola, Damien Woody, Ray Brown, & Eric Beverly aren't heading to the Pro Bowl. But they are (or were) legit NFL linemen. Joey never had to play behind Jimmy Herndon, Demingo Graham, Ryan Schau, Fred Weary, Milford Brown, Greg Randall, or Seth Wand. Those guys would have never played for the Lions. And to be fair to Detroit, Harrington has never been the most mobile QB in the league. The Lions O-line may have never been better than average while Harrington been there. But they've been head & shoulders over what David Carr has in front of him on Sundays.

Carr will win any comparison of offensive (in Carr's case, really offensive) lines.

Agreed.

That doesn't mean that Joey Harrington is a bust or that he can't be a winning QB. He's not a bust and he can win with the Lions.

This is all I'm saying. Just don't understand the national perception that this is Joey's "do or die" season. Unless of course it's just another knee-jerk reaction from sports writers that don't take the time to actually research anything and just want to tear something down to feel better about themselves.

Then I completely understand. :)

ArlingtonTexan
06-28-2005, 02:58 PM
I would not say that the number is 32 out of 32 that would prefer Carr(don't think 32 guys ever agree on anything), but believe the majority GMs would prefer Carr. IMO, the hardest things the quantify are the biggest gaps in the game of the two. Carr appears to have better leadership skills and has the confidence of his teammates. Despite this i am not sure that Carr plays well enough to improve the players around him with just his presence. (IMO, the primary difference between an elite QB and being a good QB).

As for Harrington, I KNOW he does not improve the players around him nor inspire confidence from the organization because of his leadership skills.

Harrington has to play better to gain the confidence of the players and coaching staff even though the guys around him equally need to step up their games. The Texans players need to improve to help Carr, but his improvement may help his teammates become better players.

I just think the perception that Harrington is all that is wrong with the Lion's offense is incorrect as believing that the OL and 2nd Wr are all that stand in the way of Carr and the Texans offense becoming formidatable. Too much Harrington sucks and Texans OL sucks mixed in the perception of fans/media from both teams.

Lucky
06-28-2005, 03:16 PM
...Too much Harrington sucks and Texans OL sucks mixed in the perception of fans/media from both teams.
Well, Harrington has not played well. But there are circumstances that have kept him from succeeding. The Texan O-line has been horrible. But, there are reasons such as lack of talent, inexperience, injuries. And yeah, underachievement. I don't think the book should be closed on Harrington. He deserves a legit chance with good players around him. Joey should have that chance in '05. The Texans O-line will have their chance, too. But I don't think you can say that they've "sucked" enough. At least not until they stop sucking.

And I don't quite get your rational as to why some GMs would take Joey over David. Admitting that Carr has leadership skills & the confidence of his teammates is the straw that broke Joey's back in the argument over which QB is better. Is there a GM out there that downgrades QBs on their athletic or arm superiority? Seriously, I don't think even Millen could blow that pick.

ArlingtonTexan
06-28-2005, 03:36 PM
Well, Harrington has not played well. But there are circumstances that have kept him from succeeding. The Texan O-line has been horrible. But, there are reasons such as lack of talent, inexperience, injuries. And yeah, underachievement. I don't think the book should be closed on Harrington. He deserves a legit chance with good players around him. Joey should have that chance in '05. The Texans O-line will have their chance, too. But I don't think you can say that they've "sucked" enough. At least not until they stop sucking.

And I don't quite get your rational as to why some GMs would take Joey over David. Admitting that Carr has leadership skills & the confidence of his teammates is the straw that broke Joey's back in the argument over which QB is better. Is there a GM out there that downgrades QBs on their athletic or arm superiority? Seriously, I don't think even Millen could blow that pick.

I am sensing that we are more splitting hairs than going in really different directions on the Texans OL/Harrington sucking.

As for the 32 GM out 32 Gms not taking Carr over Harrington, partly just a general belief that I could present the perfect logical argument and evidence to 32 people and there would be a few that refuse to see the logic. Also, remember a good number of the GMs would have graded Harrington out as better than Carr 4 years ago and would be invested in being correct.

The only other thing I could offer is some examples the QBs who have gotten either chance after chance (Jeff George) or too much time in a situation (Kordell stewart) or has evoked a wierd sense of blind faith by a coach (Vinny T and Bledsoe w/Parcells), when it appears pretty obvious that these guys are not the type of players you want to build around.

Carr Bombed
06-29-2005, 01:31 AM
What does it matter if the team has shown the willingness if the talent hasn't been around to help?

Williams and Jones(<-- was an alternate in the probowl, despite his slow start) were able to help and M. Williams will be able to contribute next year, hopefully along with rodgers next season. While Carr has watched the majority of our high draft picks go to the defensive side of the ball since we joined the league, including another first rounder this year. None of this really matters anyway and is kinda of a mute point.

The Texans can count on Carr to rally the team back after his poor performance in the first half.

Who said David performs bad in the first half, I said he starts off slow in the first quarter, Davids second best quarter stat wise is in the 2nd quarter

The Lions can count on Harrington to get them out to a lead before his performance drops off

:confused: That is EXACTLY WHY! his organization has no confidence in him. You wanted to know why and its staring you in the face.

[B]Maybe the Texans wouldn't need to count on Carr in the clutch if he played better earlier in the game.[B]

??? That is Exactly why our organization has confidence in him, because it doesn't matter if he comes out and starts the game with a bad series or two, he doesn't let it get to him and can still overcome it and win the game. That is a great sign and also one of the big reasons why I have no doubt Carr is going to have lots of success in this league. I remeber hearing old Cowboy fans say the same thing about Aikman during his early strugles after joining a 1-15 (basicly a expansion ) team.


You (by "you", I mean those that claim Harrington is on the hot seat while Carr is headed to Canton) can't argue that Carr has won more often because he hasn't.
You can't argue he's performed at a significantly higher level on the field because he hasn't.
You can't argue he's done it with lesser talent surrounding him because he hasn't.

But if you read enough articles (like the one I linked), you'd get an entirely different picture of the two QBs.

I am not ready to put Carr in Canton and remember plenty of articles before last season that was warming up the seat on Carr. It all comes down to what kind of situation your in and Harrington is in a situation where A) he is playing in a city that boos him and B) for a Coach that didn't draft him and who C) during the offseason aquired his old starting qb. The media, being the "I told you so" media is getting in on the ground floor so if he is pulled they can say "I told ya so".

Grid
06-29-2005, 01:55 AM
You can't argue he's performed at a significantly higher level on the field because he hasn't.

eh.. Harrington has rarely RARELY RARELY(!) ever had his QB rating go over 90 in any given situation.. while Carr consistently goes above 90 and into the 100s.

Carr's accuracy is a consistent 10% higher than harrington's.


The biggest stat that I can quote though is the difference in sacks. Carr has been sacked almost 3 times as much. You hear alot of people talking about WHY that is the case.. bottom line is that Carr is getting pressured alot more.. and still producing at a higher level.


and all this talk of "Harrington has had it rough too"... bull. No one can tell me that Harrington had it as hard his first season as Carr did. Heck, you really cant say that he has had it as hard ANY season as Carr has.. but especially the 2002 season.


But whatever.. the only reason this conversation keeps coming up is because people recognize that Carr is a great talent with huge potential.. and Harrington doesnt get the same recognition.. well there is a reason that he doesnt get the same recognition.. its because he hasnt played under the conditions that Carr has and shown that he can still be an effective QB. And he doesnt have the physical tools that Carr has either.

But the stats are fairly close so it will continue to be an arguement until Carr gets some protection and has his breakout year.. which I think will be this one. SO.. by this time next year.. we wont have to have this conversation anymore.

Ihategeeks
06-29-2005, 02:43 AM
eh.. Harrington has rarely RARELY RARELY(!) ever had his QB rating go over 90 in any given situation.. while Carr consistently goes above 90 and into the 100s.
And that explains the huge difference in QB rate at the end of the year....
2004 - Carr 7 times, Harrington 5 times.

Nope they are both pretty close to each other in the not impressive department.
But here is when Joey does go above 90 consistently
And it is with a healthy Roy Williams.
Once Roy Williams got hurt. Phhhhhhhhbit.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't Mr. Carr had Andre Johnson , HEALHTY, and on the field for most of the past 2 years? Wouldn't that be considered a significant advantage for a QB? You know, to have WR's?

It really doesn't matter. Both teams have sucked. But for some reason you all think the Lions have sucked a little less. For all the talent the Lions have. The Texans still have won more games. EVERY year.
Even with a struggling David Carr.

And to say he would come over to a team of similar or equal talent and rocket them to the playoffs is pure lunacy. If David Carr can't lead his team now, of similar talent, what makes you think he is just going to up and do it in Detroit?

How would David Carr do with No WR's?
In a complicated passing system that has no RB to take off pressure?
Wr's that can't get on the field, or can't get open
WR's that lead the league in drops each year.

It looks like David Carr has enough problems scorring TD's in Texas , and he has more help at the skill positions.

He can't just launch the pass 40 yards (no one ever got that far) or checkdown to Dom (there was no Dom until about week 8 2004) in Detroit.

He would have to go through a progression of WR's that aren't open, then look to dump down to a RB that had a LB right behind him because they don't repect the WR's or the RB and and ready to kill your safety outlet as they BLITZ EVERY FREAKING DOWN BECUASE YOUR HOTROUTE CAN'T EVEN GET OFF THE LOS , but even if he gets off that line, HE'll DROP THE DAMN BALL.........AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh, but don't get angry. This only usually happens on 3rd down. >_<

Yeah, Put David Carr on the Lions, Trade both QB's straight up.
Nothing changes for either of them. Well, it probally gets worse, Carr isn't really accurate or good with a progression, and Joey doesn't react well to pressure in his face every down.

How absolutely meaningless, pointless, *****ic, is this conversation?

BOTH TEAMS SUCKED, and even if you think for some reason that the 2-14 Lions were this great talented team. That great talent was rarely on the field.

Get over it, it's apples and oranges. Two QB's that aren't Brett Favre on crappy teams have yet to make an impact.

Joey has a much better team in 2005 even if we do suffer the typical rash of injures. Joey plays in a system that makes the Qb look good if the team is playing good. David Carr has until the 2006 season before he is in real danger.

Here, Compare David Carr to Byron Leftwich, they both play in a similar vertical offensive system, and Lefty has a much better team than both of us. That should be fun, and you can piss off Jags fans insted of making me think you people put something in your water.

Carr Bombed
06-29-2005, 10:24 AM
Although I don't agree with some stuf you said I'm just going to leave it alone, cause Im tire of beating this :deadhorse. My arm is getting tired and its starting to stink. I'll just let all this be settled on the field

BringItOn
06-29-2005, 10:58 AM
The Lion's have burned high 1st-round picks on WR's for 3 years in a row. When you couple their lot being cast on offense with Mariucci being regarded as an offense specialist, Harrington will be the odd man out if it doesn't work. It may not be fair and the GM may be an moron, but it's the way it is.

TopTexanFan16
06-29-2005, 11:55 AM
Well, it probally gets worse, Carr isn't really accurate or good with a progression, .

Carr is more accurate that Harrington just look at the stats....and you cant agrue hes not good with progression because he usually does have only 1 Wr to look at which is usually under double coverage before he has a 250 pound D-lineman rippin his head off.

Lucky
06-29-2005, 12:17 PM
...When Doug Flutie came in for Rob Johnson the Bills sacks were cut in half. Most people blamed the line there too, but the only thing they changed back then was the QB. Carr could learn a few things from Joey by throwing the ball away more.
Yeah, but how did Flutie avoid the sacks? By busting the pocket & rolling outside, of course. And I seem to remember complaints that Carr checked down too often to Davis. If Carr starts throwing the ball away more often (not saying it's a bad idea), critics will complain that he's not holding the ball long enough. Ask Joey. This is a no win argument until the pass blocking improves.

Lucky
06-29-2005, 12:24 PM
Any time anyone points out a flaw in Carr all the apologists come out and proclaim all his problems a by-product of the line or Charlie Casserly.
Have you considered the possibility that the people who point out the percieved flaws might be wrong? That if Carr stood behind the line longer, he might just be sacked more often? Not less? There are usually 2 sides (at least) to every story, no reason that both shouldn't be heard.

Huge
06-29-2005, 12:35 PM
Williams and Jones(<-- was an alternate in the probowl, despite his slow start) were able to help and M. Williams will be able to contribute next year, hopefully along with rodgers next season. While Carr has watched the majority of our high draft picks go to the defensive side of the ball since we joined the league, including another first rounder this year. None of this really matters anyway and is kinda of a mute point.

R. Williams and Jones have only played one season (and Williams only played in 12 of those games). Mike Williams has yet to take a snap so I don't see his relevance over the past 3 years.

"Moot" point. ;)

Who said David performs bad in the first half, I said he starts off slow in the first quarter, Davids second best quarter stat wise is in the 2nd quarter.

That is EXACTLY WHY! his organization has no confidence in him. You wanted to know why and its staring you in the face.

??? That is Exactly why our organization has confidence in him, because it doesn't matter if he comes out and starts the game with a bad series or two, he doesn't let it get to him and can still overcome it and win the game. That is a great sign and also one of the big reasons why I have no doubt Carr is going to have lots of success in this league. I remeber hearing old Cowboy fans say the same thing about Aikman during his early strugles after joining a 1-15 (basicly a expansion ) team.

You're right...you did say 1st quarter. You also mentioned Harrington's abysmal 3rd qtr QB rating. Interestingly enough, you didn't mention their 4th qtr ratings:

Carr: 84.3
Harrington: 84.8

Both QBs do really well in 3 qtrs of the game while suffering in one (1st for Carr ... 3rd for Harrington). 10 of Harrington's 12 INTs come in the 2nd half but almost half of his TDs (9 of 19) came in the 4th qtr.

Does this sound like somebody that crumbling near the end of the game?

Haams
06-29-2005, 12:41 PM
I'll just let all this be settled on the field

EXACTLY. These QB's are both on teams that are in building stages. This season is the first time that I think both teams are strong enough to make runs. When the season starts it will be obvious who's better. Neither has an excuse this year.

Huge
06-29-2005, 12:58 PM
EXACTLY. These QB's are both on teams that are in building stages. This season is the first time that I think both teams are strong enough to make runs. When the season starts it will be obvious who's better. Neither has an excuse this year.

:brickwall

No matter how hard I try...

From my very first post:
(Poster's note: Let me start off by saying that I don't believe Harrington is the better QB. I'd take Carr on just about every day except when he's off. This is more of a question as to why Harrington is perceived as the one who's not "lived up to his 3rd overall selection" while Carr is apparently on his way to the Hall of Fame.)

Again, this is not (intended to be) a comparison to see who is the better QB. I'm trying to get a read on those (media/fans/whoever) that have the perception stated above.

If you feel Harrington is fairly judged in such a manner (that he should be on the hot seat, do or die season, etc.), make your argument.

So far, what we've seen on the field has told me that the QBs are pretty even. Carr certainly has an edge but I don't see his performances as being so much better than Harrington that their perceptions should be so vastly different.

Again... :brickwall

Lucky
06-29-2005, 01:17 PM
Works both ways. Perhaps you should consider you may be wrong as well. I've been wrong before so I'll heal well if so. :cool:
I know that I have been wrong on many occasions. And if I think someone else is mistaken, I just try to make what I think are logical arguments. Rather than question the motives of other posters. I don't have any motives other than that.

I'm not sure if it makes sense to continually drag Harrington's name through the mud whenever questions about Carr arises. Let's say that the Texans did select Joey. Who's to say that he isn't sacked less than Carr has been? Who's to say that his Texan teammates wouldn't accept him a leader in a way his Lion teammates haven't? He could have made it in Houston. Maybe. As Carr could have in Detroit. They're not the same players. They haven't lived the same NFL life.

But I will say that the Lions have made a tremendous commitment to Harrington. Joey has one of the better QB gurus as his head coach. He's playing behind young premium pick vets at LT & C. Two very good FA guards. A solid pass receiving TE. Three (count 'em) top 10 selections at WR. And not least, a potential franchise RB. In my opinion, they've made too much of a commitment to the offense to the detriment of the defense. But that's another story.

I (as a Carr supporter) am not asking for the moon that Joey Harrington now revolves around. That would be wasteful. A franchise QB shouldn't need great players at every position. He should make those around him better. But, the QB needs a fighting chance. Complaining now about how Carr moves in the pocket or doesn't go through his progressions is akin to throwing a man in a hole and complaining that he doesn't get out of it fast enough. "I've seen guys get out of holes much better than David does". OK, but let's just get Carr out of the hole & see how he does. I don't think he can get a fair analysis, otherwise.

Haams
06-29-2005, 01:31 PM
: Carr certainly has an edge but I don't see his performances as being so much better than Harrington that their perceptions should be so vastly different.


Sorry dude. I think their perceptions are different because it's a team sport. The QB is always the first person to get the credit or the blame. Carr is percieved better because over all we are happy with the performance of the team and the direction it is headed. In Detroit I think the fans have been more dissapointed with the team.

Hope I hit on the right points, I didn't actually ever read the original post, I read where all the talk was headed.

Huge
06-29-2005, 01:40 PM
If the QBs get all the credit and take all the blame, how does Carr "get credit" for a 14-29 record as a starter while Harrington "takes the blame" for a 14-30 record as a starter?

All the arguments about their performances, supporting cast, etc. has been made in the previous posts on this thread. I'd really hate to rehash them.

See my point?

Huge
06-29-2005, 01:43 PM
Basically I'm saying this:

Why would it be so difficult to label Harrington a "solid" pro if you're going to label Carr a "budding superstar"? Both have performed close to the same level with a relatively similar supporting cast.

Yet in the media, it's just not this way. Why is that?

Haams
06-29-2005, 01:59 PM
I think it has to do with the feelings about the team. The media will reflect what people want to hear. We like the Texans, we've come a long way as an expansion team and I have complete faith we are headed towards a Super Bowl. Detroit is not an expansion team, so over the last few years to perform at the same level as one is pretty dismal. That's why I think they (Carr and Harrington) can have similar stats and records but the media is going to portray them differently. Basically, we're proud of our team so we say good things about our QB. Detroit isn't as proud of their team, so they question their QB. I think it totally has to do with their situations more than their performance. Also, finances play a role. Carr articulates better and is a better poster boy. Untill getting AJ we didn't have another star to sell jerseys and crap and the big boys are gonna make sure crap sells. I might be putting to much emphasis on finances, but I do think it plays at least a small role.

Ihategeeks
06-29-2005, 02:18 PM
Carr is more accurate that Harrington just look at the stats....and you cant agrue hes not good with progression because he usually does have only 1 Wr to look at which is usually under double coverage before he has a 250 pound D-lineman rippin his head off.
hahahah, well, I'll take your 1 doubled WR over our injured 4 Wr's any day of the week ^_^
And as always stats are the true measure of whats real. I always though David Carr had no mobility. Guess that explains all those sacks.

Carr Atheletic, Strong Arm, Good Enough Accuracy, Good Feet, Dumb as Rocks
Harrrington, Average Arm, Good Accuracy, Bad Feed, Smart enough to still be the QB in Detroit.

infantrycak
06-29-2005, 02:25 PM
Again, this is not (intended to be) a comparison to see who is the better QB. I'm trying to get a read on those (media/fans/whoever) that have the perception stated above.

If you feel Harrington is fairly judged in such a manner (that he should be on the hot seat, do or die season, etc.), make your argument.

IMO you are knocking your head against a brickwall here. Most fans don't catch more than a few games a year from a secondary team. For example, I watch every Texans game, several Dallas games and then a random hodge podge of games that seem interesting. That means many folks can't really look past the stats to explain them. My guess is there are more people like ArlingtonTexan on this MB in Detroit. By that I mean AT thinks Carr will most likely be a Brooks/Plummer quality QB--decent, but not very good or better. AT can provide a cogent description of non-stat based reasons for that belief. I think the perception you are dealing with is more people who regularly view Harrington having that sense about him than those who regularly view Carr.

TopTexanFan16
06-29-2005, 08:56 PM
hahahah, well, I'll take your 1 doubled WR over our injured 4 Wr's any day of the week ^_^
And as always stats are the true measure of whats real. I always though David Carr had no mobility. Guess that explains all those sacks.

Carr Atheletic, Strong Arm, Good Enough Accuracy, Good Feet, Dumb as Rocks
Harrrington, Average Arm, Good Accuracy, Bad Feed, Smart enough to still be the QB in Detroit.

wait i think carr was the second leading QB in rusing in the afc or maybe the third i dont recall so obviously hes mobile, come on cant escape them all. second how do you figure carr is dumb as rocks? please explain.....please!

infantrycak
06-29-2005, 11:17 PM
wait i think carr was the second leading QB in rusing in the afc or maybe the third i dont recall so obviously hes mobile, come on cant escape them all. second how do you figure carr is dumb as rocks? please explain.....please!

Carr was 1st in rushing in the AFC by almost 100 yds.

Ihategeeks
06-30-2005, 02:26 AM
Carr's Wonderlic score was a 24, which is average for an NFL QB. But someone posting about a person being "Dumb as Rocks" who can't spell athletic or the QB's name he is defending...

Harrington (notice the 2 r's) scored a 32, so this I will give Harrington, but that is the only thing I give him over Carr.

FYI, Jeff George scored a 10 on his Wonderlic!

So Defenssive.

TopTexanFan16
06-30-2005, 09:25 AM
Carr was 1st in rushing in the AFC by almost 100 yds.

yah i noticed my mistake when i watched the 2004 highlights of the texans on the NFL network. but it was a good surprise.

hou059
10-05-2005, 06:58 AM
Read an article not to long ago about how people are very hard on Harrington but should be equally as hard on Carr. The more I read and thought about it you can't begin to compare the situation. There situations are completley different. Different teams, and different personels. I wished Carr had two other recivers aside from AJ to throw to, had a solid O-Line to protect him. Harrington look like he just doesn't get it. Marrucci made winners out of Young and Garcia...GARCIA!!! and yet Harrington can't play well to save his life. Young was talented and IMO not a great QB but put up great numbers, Garcia was a sub-par QB but again adapted to the offensive scheme and put up big numbers. Carr has got a ways to go but IMO is light years ahead of Harrington. Thought and opinions please.

Huge
10-05-2005, 08:53 AM
Mariucci made a winner out of Young? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Steve Young won a Super Bowl way before Mariucci came along. Young never won less than 10 games in a season for 6 years before Mariucci took over. But Mariucci made a winner out him. You betcha.

Garcia had a .500 record as a starter (32-32) under Mariucci in San Francisco. He was 4-12 in his first season on a team that was 12-4 the previous year w/o him.

The thoughts/opinions have been posted on the previous 2 pages of this thread. Many of your arguments don't hold water.

How are their situations so different? Read the previous 2 pages before you come up with an answer.

thunderkyss
01-13-2006, 12:50 PM
Really good thread. I have to post my opinion.... I think Joey should get the same pass as Carr. They've both been on horrible teams. I think Harrington has a harder job to accomplish really. To erase years and years of history..... on a team where a future HOF inductee just up and quit, because the organization has no idea how to go about managing a winning football team. Carr doesn't have years of poor management to overcome, he started at zero, where Harrington started below zero.

Also, David is closer to your typical Quarterback, where Joey's size, and arm made him questionable to get a job in the NFL at all, much less a starter. To have played at Carr's level(stat wise) is actually quite commendable.

infantrycak
01-13-2006, 01:29 PM
Also, David is closer to your typical Quarterback, where Joey's size, and arm made him questionable to get a job in the NFL at all, much less a starter. To have played at Carr's level(stat wise) is actually quite commendable.

Funny, I never realized being an inch taller was the death knell of an NFL career before--Harrington 6' 4" 220 lbs, Carr 6' 3" 220 lbs.

HJam72
01-13-2006, 01:47 PM
Just like Carr has said before, if he threw the ball away every time that he technically should, he would ALWAYS either throw it away or dump it off.