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kbourda
06-25-2004, 11:51 PM
As reported on Fox 26 tonight from Mark Berman, the Texans will have a press conference tomorrow announcing the signing of Jason Babin. He made a comment about him signing a 6 year deal with an option on the sixth based on performance.

Good job with taking care of business.

texan279
06-25-2004, 11:57 PM
Awesome news. I read yesterday we are the only team in the AFC South to sign any of our draft picks so far. This makes four. Awesome job.

:banana: :monkey: :coolb:

beerlover
06-26-2004, 12:16 AM
Another mark to chalk up to being a positive draft day move- signability. I wonder if he is still going to be signing autographs tomorrow @ George Brown?
I cannot wait to purchase a Babin jersey and wear it with Texan pride, fellow fans I think he's going to really be special, this is awesome news :mag:

aj.
06-26-2004, 06:36 AM
The Chronicle's story:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/printstory.mpl/sports/2648640

Vinny
06-26-2004, 11:41 AM
This kid seems to have his priorities in line. Congrats to the Texans and Babin for hashing out a deal so quickly. He only has to worry about the playbook now instead of having his contract on his mind.

Ibar_Harry
06-26-2004, 03:03 PM
Early on Babin had indicated he understood the chance he was being given by the Texans and how much respect they had shown for him. I think he returned the favor realizing that minor differences just didn't mean much in this case. Hopefully, things will go equally well with DR. The indications are that DR has chosen some very reasonable agents. In fact, according to ESPN, they thought DR would be the 1st to reach agreement. Makes training camp a whole lot easier to deal with when you have all your recruits in the fold. Also, indicates the kind of togetherness you have. Happy recruits makes for a happy camp and progress todwards the ultimate goal of winning. I don't believe we have many unhappy campers among the returnees either. Looks like its all coming together very nicely.

Mistril48
06-26-2004, 07:49 PM
Jason Babin signed!

In order to obtain Babin, the Texans had to move their second pick up over a dozen spots to get back into the first round.

The Titans, in salary cap hell, were forced to allow the Texans to acquire what many believe is 'the final piece to a team posed to make a playoff run' (made up quote) in the desperate hope that drafting several players would yield some starters to replace the starters lost to free agency and retirement. The best part is it only cost the Texans their third round pick, one of their 4th round picks and an exchange of 5th round picks in the 2004 draft. The Texans were able to get back in the 1st round in the 2004 draft without losing any of their future year's picks! (In contrast, it must have been terrifying for the Ravens fans to lose a future first round pick to get back in the first round in 2003 to take Boller and terrifying for the Bills fans to give up a future first round pick to get back in the first round in 2004 to take Losman. The Texans, on the other hand, still enjoy 4 first day picks in 2005, including their first round pick. Amazing.

(Please don't say "The Texans gave the Titans a 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th for Babins and a 5th." My way sounds better)

I've got to go now, the Democratic Election Committee is on the phone ... (I'm also available for Toasts to the Bride if your daughter is getting married)

aj.
06-26-2004, 08:11 PM
OK, I won't say that the Texans gave Tenenssee a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th in exchange for a 1st and 5th, or that the Texans later traded Jax the 5th they got from Tennessee for 6th and 7th round picks.

I will say that in the end, this is how it all worked out:

Texans Get
1st round, No. 27: Jason Babin, LB
6th round, No. 175: Jammal Lord, FS
7th round, No. 210: Raheem Orr, LB

Titans Get:
2nd round, No. 40: Ben Troupe, TE
3rd round, No. 71: Randy Starks, DT
4th round, No. 103: Bo Schobel, DE
5th round, No. 138 Jacob Bell, G

DominatorDavis
06-26-2004, 08:14 PM
Most 1st rounders in Babins spot get about $3.3. mil upfront and then $1.3 mil per year. If this is a 6 year deal with a 5th year option then it should break down to counting against the cap around $1.96 mil per year for the first 5 years. Right?

Someone please help.... idonno:

aj.
06-26-2004, 08:27 PM
Annual base salaries are backloaded over the term of the contract so the cap hit starts off relatively low and then gradually rises into the out years of the contract. Every contract is different. In some cases where they give option years (year 2 and/or year 5 in his case if it's a 6 year deal) that would be when you would see his cap number jump because of a jump in base and/or another bonus payment of some sort if he meets certain incentives. The signing bonus is prorated equally over the entire term.

DominatorDavis
06-26-2004, 08:28 PM
Here is the article from ESPN:

Saturday, June 26, 2004
By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com

With negotiations for most high-round draft choices still in the preliminary stages, the Houston Texans have raced ahead of the rest of the NFL field, becoming the first team to reach agreement with a first-round draft choice.

Linebacker Jason Babin of Western Michigan, the 27th prospect selected overall and the latter of the Texans' two choices in the first round, has reached an agreement in principle and signed his first NFL contract on Saturday. Details of the contract were not yet available.

The speedy resolution to Babin's deal came less than two weeks after the Texans opened negotiations with his representatives from Eastern Athletic Services, based in Baltimore. Talks began around June 15 and escalated in surprising fashion.

Ironically, the consensus around the league is that the Texans' other first-round pick, cornerback Dunta Robinson of South Carolina, would be the initial No. 1 choice to reach an agreement. That's because Robinson's agents, from Sportstars in Manhattan, have a track record for being very proactive in negotiations and not waiting for the draft market to establish itself.

With the Babin accord, the Texans now have reached terms with four of their nine picks from the 2004 draft. None of the other agreements, however, is with a prospect taken higher than the sixth round.

Last year's 27th overall pick, Kansas City tailback Larry Johnson, received a seven-year contract that voids to a five-year, $6.7 million deal. It included a $3.31 million signing bonus. It is uncertain how Babin's contract will compare to that, since teams can prorate deals for only six years now, as opposed to seven years in 2003.

It is expected that Babin will sign either a five- or six-year contract.

A defensive end in college, Babin will move to linebacker in the Texans' 3-4 scheme, and general manager Charley Casserly and head coach Dom Capers have already named him a starter at the left outside spot. The former starter there, Kailee Wong, will move to the outside spot on the right side.

Babin, 24, was a two-year starter at Western Michigan and finished his career with 299 tackles, including 75 for losses, and 38 sacks. He registered 15 sacks in each of his last two seasons and his 38 career sacks is a school record. He also had eight forced fumbles, two recoveries, 43 pressures and two pass deflections.

Houston hopes that Babin will help re-energize a pass rush that recorded just 19 sacks in 2003, the second-lowest total in the league.

The Texans snatched Babin, a player they arduously coveted, by acquiring a second choice in the first round. They swapped second-, third- and fourth-round choices to the Tennessee Titans for the 27th overall pick.

Len Pasquarelli is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1829841

DominatorDavis
06-26-2004, 08:29 PM
I am so pumped. I just know that these guys are too.

Fiddy
06-26-2004, 08:31 PM
In contrast, it must have been terrifying for the Ravens fans to lose a future first round pick to get back in the first round in 2003 to take Boller and terrifying for the Bills fans to give up a future first round pick to get back in the first round in 2004 to take Losman.Those werent bad deals if you read into them more.

Lets analyze the Ravens giving up a future first round pick 2 years ago: Lets say they dont get Boller, so now they have the 21st pick in the draft with no franchise QB and would reach to pick Losman. I dont think the Ravens giving up that pick was a bad deal at all because they have a franchise QB that has learned for a year and is about to take over a super bowl contender

Next, the Bills giving up the 1st round pick next year for Losman: They did their homework for next years draft and (I read this somewhere) didnt have a first round grade on any QB coming out next year. Now, the Bills believe that they are playoff contenders and if they are they would have a late 1st round pick and wouldnt get a franchise QB. Now they have Losman to backup Bledsoe and learn the system for a year and then will get the riens of the offense next year on a team that is playoff ready.

Not bad deals in my eyes. :twocents:

Mistril48
06-26-2004, 08:52 PM
Fiddy, I can't disagree with what you say about the Bills and the Ravens trades (at least not yet). I was merely pointing out that it is more terrifying to trade a first round pick in a future year (as Oakland showed, you never really know how high it will be) than to trade later round picks in the present draft. What if the Giants pick is a top five. Yikes!

I think the Texans, Bills and Ravens would all be considered good front offices. I'm in favor of using every arrow in the quiver, including trades. In several years we can look back at all these moves, including the Texans and see how they turned out.

I view the Texans trade as a 'short pants' move. You have to wear long pants to trade a future first round pick.

That's enough cliches for now ...

Fiddy
06-26-2004, 08:56 PM
Fiddy, I can't disagree with what you say about the Bills and the Ravens trades (at least not yet). I was merely pointing out that it is more terrifying to trade a first round pick in a future year (as Oakland showed, you never really know how high it will be) than to trade later round picks in the present draft. What if the Giants pick is a top five. Yikes!I get what you are saying now and I do agree that it is dangerous to deal future 1st round picks.

But I am hoping that the Giants pick is the #1 pick overall in the draft so the Chargers get it and can thank Eli Manning for it. :D

nunusguy
06-27-2004, 09:07 AM
I've seen all kind of "value" charts for exchanging draft picks, but they seem
pretty arbitrary to me. So what the aggregate point total is for 2, 3, 4 (10 th spot), compared to the 27th pick overall is, well choose your chart (exchanging 5 th round spots seems almost immaterial in this calculation).
The premium (if one thinks we paid one), is the 4th round pick. And D.Davis
types , if not rare, are very unusual. What's the success rate of 4th rounders
making it in the NFL - 20% ? So if we paid a premium, it really wasn't that
much of a premium. And perhaps the premium was for the 27th, not using
the 27 on Babin. I think there is a difference. But the basic problem I have
with the pick is I think we're still in the stage of development where we need quantity atleast as much as quality. But if Babin goes to the Pro Bowl in the next 2 or 3 years, his pick will be more than justified.

ArlingtonTexan
06-27-2004, 10:26 AM
On the value chart thing, the premiums for moving up this year were higher than other drafts in recent history. The price of moving varies from year to year.

Vinny
06-27-2004, 12:18 PM
I think we're still in the stage of development where we need quantity atleast as much as quality. But if Babin goes to the Pro Bowl in the next 2 or 3 years, his pick will be more than justified.The Texans had a press conference right after the draft and claimed otherwise. Casserly said that we didn't need any more bodies and wanted a couple of starters at the top of this draft. We need a starting edge rusher. In two years we have gathered a ton of projects but no real real elite talent for this position. From what I gather looking at news and such, Laboy projects to be a situational player just like our other players at OLB. We only gave up one first day pick and it looks like we will get a starter out of it at a position of need. A high need for that matter. We were the last in the league in sacks and sacks come from OLB's in our system. I am not in disagreement with you as much as I am just passing along what I think I know.

just to refresh...

by GM Charley Casserly
"We thought it was a strong draft early and a strong draft late. There were a lot of players in the middle that we already had here, because we had so many draft picks in our first two years. Other teams didn’t have the draft picks like we had. They didn’t have the luxury of having a surplus of picks to trade and move up to get a player. The way I viewed the trade is that we had two fourth round picks, one of which came from a fifth round trade last year. When you have extra picks, you get them to move up. It was a throw away pick. In my view we gave up a third round pick to move up. At that point the player on our board was an offensive guard and we’ve got enough good offensive guards now. That was not a position we wanted to take. We probably would have moved out of the third round."

by GM Charley Casserly
(opening statement) “We gave up a two, three, four and swapped fives. Today we will not pick again, and we will not trade up to pick in the third. Tomorrow, we’ll have a four, a fives, two sixes and two sevens. We have players rated and this was a player that we had rated highest at his position. He’s an outside linebacker for us. We had him slated to go late in the first round or early in the second. We got wind, others were trying to trade up to get him. So it became a little bit of a race to go get him. You have to make a decision if you want or don’t want the player. We wanted the player and this is the price that we had to pay. When you go into the draft, you have a wish list. Our two top guys were Dunta Robinson and Jason Babin. We accomplished the objective of getting our first two picks of our wish list.”

by Dom Capers
“From the first time we worked him out, we had a real feel that he fits the bill of what we look for in an outside linebacker. Probably our greatest need looking back at our defense was our inability to pass rush. He’s had 15 sacks in the last two years. He worked out very well at the combine and in individual workouts. He’s a great guy with a strong work ethic and plays with a tremendous motor. What I really feel good about with our first two picks is that we added coverage. Our corner has tremendous speed and now a pass rush. Those are two things you really look for on defense. Being able to upgrade our defense in those two areas was a real target heading into the day. I couldn’t feel better about our first two picks. I commend Charley (Casserly) for making the move to go up and get him. This is a guy that we project will be able to upgrade our pass rush, be a three down player for us, play OLB on the first two downs and defensive end on the third.” www.houstontexans.com

Mistril48
06-27-2004, 01:17 PM
... I think we're still in the stage of development where we need quantity at least as much as quality ...
While I agree with much of your post, I don't believe we needed quantity over quality at this year's draft.

As an expansion team, we generally added more young players to our roster than other teams the past two years. Some of these players required a year, or two, of development (physical training and technique), before we really knew if we had something. Unfortunately, current NFL rosters are much smaller than college rosters (or historical NFL rosters, I believe). To add more draft picks, we would have had to release players already on our roster (unless we were in salary cap hell like the Titans).

In the case of the Texans, we have players like Weary, Wells, Baxter, Ramon Walker, Faggins, Brown, Joppru, Peek, Ragone, Hollings, Earl, Lord, Thomas, etc. who haven't generally been starters and who are at various stages of development. Some may be released after this summer's camp, but I don't believe that the Texans felt they could draft players in the 3rd, 4th and 5th, round who would push the above players for roster spots this year, given that the above have the advantage of a year or two of development. Would a rookie guard, like Jacob Bell, be better as a rookie than Weary and Brown? Perhaps, but I don't believe the Texans think so.

It's difficult to build a 53 man roster and meet all your needs. You need some experience on the roster to help players develop. You can't have all developmental players.

CloakNNNdagger
07-01-2004, 08:48 PM
There are still Texans fans which are questioning the numbers $$$ that were thrown at Babin. But evidently, according to ProFootballTalk, very likely there will be a domino effect on other teams which will be looked upon as a very “destructive” precedent to the “system”.........................Widespread distain towards the Texans organization could be the result, especially if Babin does not pan out and prove his worth. Hopefully, Babin fills his billing and the Texans get their hard sought “diamond.” But let us not forget that no team exists in a vacuum and our actions will inevitably be put under the strain of the microscope.:
__________________________________________

July 1, 2004
BABIN DEAL TOO RICH?

A league source tells us that complaints are swirling among NFL teams regarding the contract signed by Texans first-rounder Jason Babin.
Per the source, Babin received a bump over "way over the normal incremental increase" as compared to his 2003 counterpart at the 27th overall pick, Chiefs running back Larry Johnson.

As a result, the agents of the players taken at number 26 and number 28 now have ammunition for jacking up the demands for their respective clients, and the increase could have a ripple effect throughout the round.
If Babin were the Texans' only first-round pick, the move could be characterized as a calculated effort by G.M. Charley Casserly to start a chain reaction that might squeeze the teams with picks high in the round into overpaying. But Casserly still has another pick to sign in round -- cornerback Dunta Robinson, who was taken with the 10th overall selection.

Indeed, part of the concern is that Casserly will overpay Robinson as well, guaranteeing that the high end of round one will be thrown out of whack this year.

Complicating matters is that the deal this year have a maximum six year term, not seven. As a result, there are less seasons over which the signing bonus can be prorated. With only a slight increase in the rookie salary pool, a spike in the across-the-board value of first-round contract will make it harder to get all of the guys signed with the dollars available.

Babin's official numbers have not yet been reported. We're trying to get them -- but we can't find any agents who'll give us their password for the NFLPA computer system.

www.profootballtalk.com

aj.
07-01-2004, 09:10 PM
Chiefs | Johnson Contract Breakdown - from www.KFFL.com
Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:40:57 -0700

Updating previous reports, ESPN.com's Len Pasquarelli reports the seven-year deal Kansas City Chiefs RB Larry Johnson received is worth $8.847 million, including a $3.31 million signing bonus.

If certain playing time benchmarks are achieved, Johnson's deal will void down to a five-year, $6.7 million deal. He'll have base salaries of $452,000 (2003), $515,000 (2004), $628,000 (2005), $741,000 (2006), $854,000 (2007), $967,000 (2008) and $1.08 million (2009) and there are workout bonuses of $50,000 each for 2004 through 2009.

Babin base salaries from NFLPA (it's been out there for several days already):

2004 $456,003
2005 $1,038,503
2006 $432,503
2007 $584,003
2008 $735,503
2009 $887,003

I read where his bonus was around $3.8 million, which would make his total deal 6 years $7.93 million as compared to Johnson's 7 years $8.85 million. Babin's second year base is $500,000 more than Johnson's but Babin's 3rd through 6th year bases are a combined $500,000 less than Johnson's.

I'm not sure I see the problem unless it's in the bonus somewhere.

texan279
07-01-2004, 09:24 PM
What I got from that article is that we cannot pay one of our first round picks what we want to pay him because we are supposed to keep all of the other teams in the NFL happy... :crazy: If we have the money we can pay our picks whatever we want to pay them...

aj.
07-01-2004, 09:33 PM
Well, there is a "scale" of sorts and you don't want to go too crazy. Bases rise in the agreement by a certain amount per year and I'm sure there's a "code" for year to year increases in bonus. Draft pick money is controlled by a rookie pool so it's not like you can go crazy and throw everything at one guy otherwise you wouldn't have anything left for the others. This type of stuff usually happens every year after the first pick of the first round is signed. It causes agents and teams to go back and recalibrate but I don't think this was as bad as they are making it sound.

infantrycak
07-01-2004, 10:16 PM
There are still Texans fans which are questioning the numbers $$$ that were thrown at Babin.

I find that odd since aj's information is the very first time I have seen any actual dollar amounts.

Babin's official numbers have not yet been reported. We're trying to get them -- but we can't find any agents who'll give us their password for the NFLPA computer system.

This says even the folks from the story had no idea what the numbers were so how could there be an uproar among Texans' fans?--and that weren't expressing it here?

Vinny
07-01-2004, 10:50 PM
profootballtalk.com is a pure gossip rag. I don't take much of their stuff seriously.

Good to see you around Cloak.

nunusguy
07-02-2004, 01:26 PM
Thanks for the compensation info on Babin & Johnson AJ. But I'm wondering,
why can't the NFL just use a "present value" formula to calculate the
real or true economic value of these contracts in todays terms for us fans instead of listing out that series of salary payments 7, 8 years into the future ?
That way we could really make a comparison of the compensation Babin and
Johnton get.

AdamJT13
07-02-2004, 03:06 PM
Babin base salaries from NFLPA (it's been out there for several days already):

2004 $456,003
2005 $1,038,503
2006 $432,503
2007 $584,003
2008 $735,503
2009 $887,003

You switched the years for those base salaries. The NFLPA site lists the salaries in that order, but they are for the years 2004, 2009, 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008, in order. So if you put them in order by year, it would look like this --

2004 $456,003
2005 $432,503
2006 $584,003
2007 $735,503
2008 $887,003
2009 $1,038,503

Babin couldn't have a base salary of $1,038,503 for 2005, because that would violate the 25-percent rule.


I read where his bonus was around $3.8 million

Babin got a $2.2 million signing bonus, a $1.275 million option bonus due next year, a $150,000 roster bonus this season, $382,480 in workout bonuses from 2005-2009 and $395,000 in NLTBE incentives ($170,000 this season and $45,000 in each of the other seasons). He also has an escalator up to $2.2 million in 2008, and the 2009 season is voidable.

His cap numbers --

2004 $972,669
2005 $1,130,329
2006 $1,281,829
2007 $1,433,889
2008 $1,585,389
2009 $1,736,893

Babin's combined bonuses (signing, roster, option) total $3.625, which is 9.5 percent higher than Johnson's $3.31. But his first-year cap number is only 5.2 percent higher than Johnson's was, which shouldn't keep any other teams from managing the rookie pool if Babin's contract sets the market for picks at the bottom of the first round.

CloakNNNdagger
07-04-2004, 05:48 PM
Quote:
There are still Texans fans which are questioning the numbers $$$ that were thrown at Babin.


I find that odd since aj's information is the very first time I have seen any actual dollar amounts.

Quote:
Babin's official numbers have not yet been reported. We're trying to get them -- but we can't find any agents who'll give us their password for the NFLPA computer system.


This says even the folks from the story had no idea what the numbers were so how could there be an uproar among Texans' fans?--and that weren't expressing it here?

______________________________

I may not have made myself clear, but by "numbers" I was meaning to refer not only to the dollars involved but to the steep trade which led to his acquisition...............To move into Tennessee's No. 27 spot in the first round, the Texans traded second-, third-, fourth- and fifth-round picks to the Titans....................There are still a good number of Texans fans that are questioning the package involved........and this will not be resolved until Babin has proven himself as a diamond or bust.

Vinny
07-04-2004, 05:56 PM
To move into Tennessee's No. 27 spot in the first round, the Texans traded second-, third-, fourth- and fifth-round picks to the Titans....................There are still a good number of Texans fans that are questioning the package involved........and this will not be resolved until Babin has proven himself as a diamond or bust.
I don't see too high a price, and I think pft.com is just reacting to the early, early reaction. Babin gave us two first round picks so he is a push with the 2nd round pick we traded. The off-set was really just one first day pick (3rd round) and a couple of second day selections. One of those second day picks started out as a 5th rounder didn't it? Giving away a 3rd round pick for a guy you project to start and build around as an OLB in a 3-4 defense isn't such a grand price to me. That was the reason Casserly was stockpiling picks; to move up when he had the "right guy". It all comes out in the wash soon though.

powda
07-04-2004, 06:37 PM
-babin isnt just a superior physical talent...he's also a high character guy wich is hard to find.

-based on what we did in the draft its obvious the texans had high rankings on upper echelon players and late round guys. seems to me they were not impressed with many of the mid draft prospects---hence the trade forward and trading back for additional late round picks.

-we didnt give up anything in next years draft wich i think is an indirect bonus. its harder to evaluate those players. this year we had tabs on everybody and obviously we'rent impressed with mid level players.

-we didnt get a player or 3 with questionable talent who MIGHT compete for a starting jobs this year or next. the texans went after someone who would make an impact in as short a time as possible. with the depth we finally have, do we want to pin our hopes on players who will more then likely be depth for a couple of seasons before they even compete for a starting job?

-a quality 3-4 olb/de to fit our system is hard to find to begin with. let alone one with babin's potential and character. and as i've emphatically insisted in another post olb may be the most crucial position in our defense.

-we had to pay a division rival to get the player we wanted. did you expect that to come cheaply?

-if your at this site your probably a hardcore fan. if your the average joe or even a free agent, 2 first round selections grabs your attention. how many average fans pay real attention to mr. irrelevant? this move catches your attention...and probably helps the recruiting process in free agency. this move proves in big bold letters if our managment wants you they'll do what it takes to get their man. the rest of the nfl took notice. our managment is proactive.

-as an additional bonus obviously money wasnt an issue. thats gotta count for something.

right or wrong, initially i thought we overpaid to. but realistically what kind of impact was a 3rd or 4th round pick going to have on this season? babin will have an impact. good or bad thats a gaurante.

edo783
07-04-2004, 11:41 PM
I have a good feeling about Babin. Of course it could just be a gas bubble, but something tells me he will be the real deal. I look for a reasonably solid rooky season and then in 05 I look for him to make his mark.