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infantrycak
03-12-2013, 07:36 PM
So it has been customary of late to slag Schaub's arm whenever any WR is brought up. Latest example Mike Wallace - well he is too fast for Schaub. So decided to look at what we were missing out on. Since Wallace was what brought this up I looked up Big Ben first but below are some other prominent QB's (when I say thrown I mean in the air, not the result of the play):

Big Ben - 17 attempts, 4 completions, 23.5%. (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Peyton - 20 attempts, 7 completions, 35% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brady - 19 attempts, 6 completions, 31.5% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Flacco - 38 attempts, 8 completions, 21% (2 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brees - 32 attempts, 12 completions, 37.5% (4 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Rodgers - 13 attempts, 5 completions, 38% (1 completion over 40 yards thrown)

Schaub - 17 attempts, 6 completions, 35% (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)

Here's the kicker for you. All but one of those QB's had 3 TD's which were thrown over 30 yds - that was Brees with 4.

By the way that means these QB's attempted throws over 30 yds 3.9% of the time.

But what the hell, stats are meaningless.

otisbean
03-12-2013, 07:45 PM
If Schaub has an issue with deep balls its that he waits a tad too long to release the ball. Maybe some would disagree, but I'd rather see a WR have to wait a bit on a deep ball but end up with a completion then watch open Wrs get over thrown

thunderkyss
03-12-2013, 07:59 PM
Yeah, the Schaub hate around has got to be driven by emotions. Schaub has his faults, but most of the criticism lately haven't been hitting on them.


Flacco - 38 attempts, 8 completions, 21% (2 completions over 40 yards thrown)

I mentioned this in another thread & these numbers bear it out. Flacco attempts way too many low percentage passes.... & this is only counting balls thrown over 40 yards. & here, only connecting on 2 of them is kinda like Dwight Howard at the free throw line.

Playoffs
03-12-2013, 08:00 PM
But what the hell, stats are meaningless.Haters hate numbers. http://www.thedigichick.com/forums/images/smilies/tantrum.gif

thunderkyss
03-12-2013, 08:05 PM
If Schaub has an issue with deep balls its that he waits a tad too long to release the ball. Maybe some would disagree, but I'd rather see a WR have to wait a bit on a deep ball but end up with a completion then watch open Wrs get over thrown

If we're talking about new receivers, I completely agree. Anything to increase the chance of a reception & moving the chains.

But.... if we're talking about guys he's been throwing to since 2006 (Andre, OD, Walter), he should be able to lead them with a high level of accuracy, I would think. Other QBs, like Peyton obviously doesn't need 6 years to get his timing down.

Open is open & if we're talking about guys like Andre & OD, you're costing yourself Touch downs. Maybe not on the 40 yards in the air passes, but on your 15 & 20 yarders that should turn into 30 & 40 yard gains.

Surreal McCoy
03-12-2013, 08:14 PM
I predict this thread will garner all the attention of grandmother in a bikini contest - the cool kids just don't want to hear this stuff.

hollywood_texan
03-12-2013, 08:19 PM
Stats don't lie, but when there are only seventeen in the population group, it makes since that you can review each instance individually.

From watching the Texans, I think Schaub either doesn't have the arm or throws too late, or a combination of both.

Maybe the completion of the long balls are because of the wide receivers despite Schaub?

I think Schaub is a good QB, but has areas of improvement, such as stretching out defenses. I don't think defensive coordinators are concerned about Schaub throwing the long ball.

texan279
03-12-2013, 08:43 PM
So it has been customary of late to slag Schaub's arm whenever any WR is brought up. Latest example Mike Wallace - well he is too fast for Schaub. So decided to look at what we were missing out on. Since Wallace was what brought this up I looked up Big Ben first but below are some other prominent QB's (when I say thrown I mean in the air, not the result of the play):

Big Ben - 17 attempts, 4 completions, 23.5%. (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Peyton - 20 attempts, 7 completions, 35% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brady - 19 attempts, 6 completions, 31.5% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Flacco - 38 attempts, 8 completions, 21% (2 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brees - 32 attempts, 12 completions, 37.5% (4 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Rodgers - 13 attempts, 5 completions, 38% (1 completion over 40 yards thrown)

Schaub - 17 attempts, 6 completions, 35% (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)

Here's the kicker for you. All but one of those QB's had 3 TD's which were thrown over 30 yds - that was Brees with 4.

By the way that means these QB's attempted throws over 30 yds 3.9% of the time.

But what the hell, stats are meaningless.


MSR. Excellent post.

thunderkyss
03-12-2013, 08:46 PM
I think Schaub is a good QB, but has areas of improvement, such as stretching out defenses. I don't think defensive coordinators are concerned about Schaub throwing the long ball.

From what we've seen, you might be right. But Schaub has made them pay many times.

Texan_Bill
03-12-2013, 08:53 PM
So it has been customary of late to slag Schaub's arm whenever any WR is brought up. Latest example Mike Wallace - well he is too fast for Schaub. So decided to look at what we were missing out on. Since Wallace was what brought this up I looked up Big Ben first but below are some other prominent QB's (when I say thrown I mean in the air, not the result of the play):

Big Ben - 17 attempts, 4 completions, 23.5%. (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Peyton - 20 attempts, 7 completions, 35% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brady - 19 attempts, 6 completions, 31.5% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Flacco - 38 attempts, 8 completions, 21% (2 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brees - 32 attempts, 12 completions, 37.5% (4 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Rodgers - 13 attempts, 5 completions, 38% (1 completion over 40 yards thrown)

Schaub - 17 attempts, 6 completions, 35% (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)

Here's the kicker for you. All but one of those QB's had 3 TD's which were thrown over 30 yds - that was Brees with 4.

By the way that means these QB's attempted throws over 30 yds 3.9% of the time.

But what the hell, stats are meaningless.

If Schaub has an issue with deep balls its that he waits a tad too long to release the ball. Maybe some would disagree, but I'd rather see a WR have to wait a bit on a deep ball but end up with a completion then watch open Wrs get over thrown

I heard a very interesting interview (a while back) with none other than Dante Pastorini, who BTW had a very strong arm. He suggested that it wasn't Schaub's arm strength as it was as much as his footwork and his progressions.. He suggested that Schaub commits a little too much to progressions rather than commit to the deep ball. Dan went on to say (and I'm paraphrasing here) that if Schaub committed to throwing the deep ball as the first option, he (Schaub) could make the throw. Dan went onto say (again, paraphrasing) that people that think Schaub has a weak arm, just don't know what they're watching..

I believe Dan.

infantrycak
03-12-2013, 08:56 PM
Maybe the completion of the long balls are because of the wide receivers despite Schaub?

I see WR's save QB's all over the league. Eli Manning got his first ring because of one. As far as I am concerned the Ravens are DOA without Boldin in the playoffs. Flacco frequently wing and a prayered the ball which is not something Schaub generally does. Plus remember, we only have one WR right?

Your timing comment and Bill's/Pastorini's has more merit to me than the whole arm strength thing.

Jules Winnfield
03-12-2013, 09:14 PM
the problem is almost all of schaubs deep throws are off of play action and augmented with threatening running game.

THOSE ARE IDEAL LONG PASSING PLAYS AND YET SCHAUB STILL HAS TROUBLE MAKING THEM.

Some of those guys on those list they dont always work off of play action because of their respective system. Schaub will only throw the long ball if its the play his twin brother gary calls. Conservative gary will only choose long passing plays if its ideal and needed. Those other guys, their degree of difficulty is much greater than schaub. Throwing the deep ball is just one of many problems with matt schaub.

In the analytics era, you can pull out any statistic and make any point you want seem truthful.

Nice moral victory thread and this proves once again how delusional houstonians are with their quarterback.

This is why we got stuck with david carr for so long. Houstonians and the front office were gutless and refused to see what they had in front of them. They kept on making rationalizations instead of making an honest analytical decision and move on from the situation.

Its happening again with schaub.

You people deserve matt schaub and gary kubiak.

hollywood_texan
03-12-2013, 09:18 PM
I see WR's save QB's all over the league. Eli Manning got his first ring because of one. As far as I am concerned the Ravens are DOA without Boldin in the playoffs. Flacco frequently wing and a prayered the ball which is not something Schaub generally does. Plus remember, we only have one WR right?

Your timing comment and Bill's/Pastorini's has more merit to me than the whole arm strength thing.

Maybe the timing issue is really about Kubiak's system and play calling?

Kubiak's system does not seem to allow for artistry in the QB position, but a methodical and predictable approach.

From what I see with my own eyes, and stats are not going to persuade me otherwise, the Texans have a problem with the deep ball.

ATXtexanfan
03-12-2013, 09:19 PM
Jules said it best. Schaub doesn't pass the eyeball test anymore. What did kubiak say. He's won like 75% of his starts last few years. So what. Just a stat

Nawzer
03-12-2013, 09:22 PM
Numbers don't lie, but they don't always tell the whole truth. I don't know if it's his arm strength or if he's not technically right, but he's nowhere as good as some of the other QBs. In this instance "seeing is believing" saying applies to me. You only have to look at that Colts game where he fluttered a pass that was picked off and then overthrew AJ for another pick. Even when he does get the ball deep, the receiver almost always has to slow down and reach back to make the catches. Schaub is who he is and I've accepted that fact. The key to next season will be whether or not Kubiak will change his offense and be more up tempo. If he can do that successfully we'll be fine as an offense and should be in the playoffs again, but beyond that I don't know.

dalemurphy
03-12-2013, 09:26 PM
Numbers don't lie, but they don't always tell the whole truth. I don't know if it's his arm strength or if he's not technically right, but he's nowhere as good as some of the other QBs. In this instance "seeing is believing" saying applies to me. You only have to look at that Colts game where he fluttered a pass that was picked off and then overthrew AJ for another pick. Even when he does get the ball deep, the receiver almost always has to slow down and reach back to make the catches. Schaub is who he is and I've accepted that fact. The key to next season will be whether or not Kubiak will change his offense and be more up tempo. If he can do that successfully we'll be fine as an offense and should be in the playoffs again, but beyond that I don't know.

Schaub looked great until December. He looked bad after that. I don't know why. Perhaps it was his foot... Some of his underthrows late in the year were inexplicable, and it did appear he could not drive the ball like he usually can (not that he has a gun). Hopefully, it was an injury that can/will heal or some other correctable issue. I'm not worried until I see those problems continue this coming year.

powda
03-12-2013, 09:27 PM
the problem is almost all of schaubs deep throws are off of play action and augmented with threatening running game.

THOSE ARE IDEAL LONG PASSING PLAYS AND YET SCHAUB STILL HAS TROUBLE MAKING THEM.

Some of those guys on those list they dont always work off of play action because of their respective system. Schaub will only throw the long ball if its the play his twin brother gary calls. Conservative gary will only choose long passing plays if its ideal and needed. Those other guys, their degree of difficulty is much greater than schaub. Throwing the deep ball is just one of many problems with matt schaub.

In the analytics era, you can pull out any statistic and make any point you want seem truthful.

Nice moral victory thread and this proves once again how delusional houstonians are with their quarterback.

This is why we got stuck with david carr for so long. Houstonians and the front office were gutless and refused to see what they had in front of them. They kept on making rationalizations instead of making an honest analytical decision and move on from the situation.

Its happening again with schaub.

You people deserve matt schaub and gary kubiak.

Rep. People can and will spin stats how they like. Watch the games.

Texn4life
03-12-2013, 09:27 PM
Its going to be a very long offseason.

eriadoc
03-12-2013, 09:30 PM
If you go back and read my post in the Mike Wallace thread, I never said the word "arm". Getting the ball to the receiver (in stride) down the field has a lot more involved than just pure arm strength. Been watching Schaub underthrow receivers due to whatever bad mechanics since the very first 70 yard TD to AJ back in '07.

This year, the most telling play was when Schaub rolled out on a play action bootleg, planted, surveyed the field, had all damn day to throw it, and then underthrew Casey by at least a couple yards, for an inexcusable INT. Tell me what stat that falls under.

otisbean
03-12-2013, 09:31 PM
If we're talking about new receivers, I completely agree. Anything to increase the chance of a reception & moving the chains.

But.... if we're talking about guys he's been throwing to since 2006 (Andre, OD, Walter), he should be able to lead them with a high level of accuracy, I would think. Other QBs, like Peyton obviously doesn't need 6 years to get his timing down.

Open is open & if we're talking about guys like Andre & OD, you're costing yourself Touch downs. Maybe not on the 40 yards in the air passes, but on your 15 & 20 yarders that should turn into 30 & 40 yard gains.

I hear ya. I think he holds the ball a bit to make extra sure the guy is open, if that makes sense. Notice that he doesn't get picked too often going deep. It does cost you TDs but you also end up with 40 completions which aren't bad

Jules Winnfield
03-12-2013, 09:35 PM
Schaub looked great until December. He looked bad after that. I don't know why. Perhaps it was his foot... Some of his underthrows late in the year were inexplicable, and it did appear he could not drive the ball like he usually can (not that he has a gun). Hopefully, it was an injury that can/will heal or some other correctable issue. I'm not worried until I see those problems continue this coming year.


matt's accuracy has always been a problem even before his injury. Just look at the film, even short passes he has trouble making accurate throws. That's why you always see receivers having to make high difficulty catches on simple crossing patterns.

my god even his check down passes are horrible. How many times have you seen owen daniels having to make crazy catches on the account of schaub? Look at that last playoff game, horrible throw to andre in the end zone, horrible passes to casey, owen daniels where an accurate throw to a pass no longer than 20 yards would have netted a first down.

If we had a lesser tight end instead of a pro bowl caliber one, this weakness would be glaring much brighter. Even some of the throws to arian foster were ridiculously bad, that one throw vs jets or bears i think where foster had to lunge all out to grab a touch down pass just shows matt's accuracy problem.

With all that being said, matt's biggest problem is not his arm strength but his decision making. That is matt's biggest weakness IMO. He has shaky decision making, not very accurate and the problem is augmented with the fact that he's not athletic, fast, nor a playmaker.

But yes, lets sign him to a contract extension no way we can find anybody better than that. Its impossible....

Nawzer
03-12-2013, 09:35 PM
If you go back and read my post in the Mike Wallace thread, I never said the word "arm". Getting the ball to the receiver (in stride) down the field has a lot more involved than just pure arm strength. Been watching Schaub underthrow receivers due to whatever bad mechanics since the very first 70 yard TD to AJ back in '07.

This year, the most telling play was when Schaub rolled out on a play action bootleg, planted, surveyed the field, had all damn day to throw it, and then underthrew Casey by at least a couple yards, for an inexcusable INT. Tell me what stat that falls under.

That's the play I was referring to in my post too. But the game was preceded by a bunch of other ****ty performance by him and the offense.

Dutchrudder
03-12-2013, 09:38 PM
So it has been customary of late to slag Schaub's arm whenever any WR is brought up. Latest example Mike Wallace - well he is too fast for Schaub. So decided to look at what we were missing out on. Since Wallace was what brought this up I looked up Big Ben first but below are some other prominent QB's (when I say thrown I mean in the air, not the result of the play):

Big Ben - 17 attempts, 4 completions, 23.5%. (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Peyton - 20 attempts, 7 completions, 35% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brady - 19 attempts, 6 completions, 31.5% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Flacco - 38 attempts, 8 completions, 21% (2 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brees - 32 attempts, 12 completions, 37.5% (4 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Rodgers - 13 attempts, 5 completions, 38% (1 completion over 40 yards thrown)

Schaub - 17 attempts, 6 completions, 35% (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)

Here's the kicker for you. All but one of those QB's had 3 TD's which were thrown over 30 yds - that was Brees with 4.

By the way that means these QB's attempted throws over 30 yds 3.9% of the time.

But what the hell, stats are meaningless.

Any idea how many INTs each of them made during these passes?

infantrycak
03-12-2013, 09:41 PM
If you go back and read my post in the Mike Wallace thread, I never said the word "arm".

I didn't quote you because I wasn't trying to make it particular post - just what it lead me to look up.

This year, the most telling play was when Schaub rolled out on a play action bootleg, planted, surveyed the field, had all damn day to throw it, and then underthrew Casey by at least a couple yards, for an inexcusable INT. Tell me what stat that falls under.

He had 0 INT's on passes thrown over 30 yds (the other QB's combined for 5).

Any idea how many INTs each of them made during these passes?

I remember Brees had 3 of the 5 INT's and then two others had 1 each. Edit - Peyton and Rodgers had 1 each.

Rep. People can and will spin stats how they like. Watch the games.

I am sorry but at some point the eyeball test says more about the beholder. If these other QB's are so much better at slinging the ball, over the course of 4000 pass attempts it should be reflected. Bottom line, folks are being anti-homers on Schaub and the Texans from Rodgers not even attempting to throw the ball down field as much to Flacco being wildly inaccurate with his big gun of an arm. I would have bet money people's eyes would have said Rodgers threw down field more often and Flacco was more accurate.

dalemurphy
03-12-2013, 09:43 PM
matt's accuracy has always been a problem even before his injury. Just look at the film, even short passes he has trouble making accurate throws. That's why you always see receivers having to make high difficulty catches on simple crossing patterns.

my god even his check down passes are horrible. How many times have you seen owen daniels having to make crazy catches on the account of schaub? Look at that last playoff game, horrible throw to andre in the end zone, horrible passes to casey, owen daniels where an accurate throw to a pass no longer than 20 yards would have netted a first down.

If we had a lesser tight end instead of a pro bowl caliber one, this weakness would be glaring much brighter. Even some of the throws to arian foster were ridiculously bad, that one throw vs jets or bears i think where foster had to lunge all out to grab a touch down pass just shows matt's accuracy problem.

With all that being said, matt's biggest problem is not his arm strength but his decision making. That is matt's biggest weakness IMO. He has shaky decision making, not very accurate and the problem is augmented with the fact that he's not athletic, fast, nor a playmaker.

But yes, lets sign him to a contract extension no way we can find anybody better than that. Its impossible....

This simply isn't true. Schaub has a very long track record... college, Atlanta, and 7 years in Houston and his accuracy has never been an issue. He has always been among the leaders in completion percentage and the important stat: Yards per attempt.

You can argue that he is limited athletically, that he is brittle, etc... but arguing that he is not accurate means that you either don't know football or you have a negative bias against him that has colored your perspective.

Texan_Bill
03-12-2013, 09:46 PM
I heard a very interesting interview (a while back) with none other than Dante Pastorini, who BTW had a very strong arm. He suggested that it wasn't Schaub's arm strength as it was as much as his footwork and his progressions.. He suggested that Schaub commits a little too much to progressions rather than commit to the deep ball. Dan went on to say (and I'm paraphrasing here) that if Schaub committed to throwing the deep ball as the first option, he (Schaub) could make the throw. Dan went onto say (again, paraphrasing) that people that think Schaub has a weak arm, just don't know what they're watching..

I believe Dan.

Y'all are so busy fighting amongst yourselves that none of y'all took the time to read my post about Dan Pastorini's assessement of Schaub..

TexanSam
03-12-2013, 09:48 PM
Y'all are so busy fighting amongst yourselves that none of y'all took the time to read my post about Dan Pastorini's assessement of Schaub..

I don't know if committing to progressions is such a bad thing. He's make the reads and figuring out the best receiver to throw it too. Maybe he's trying too hard and overthinks plays?

infantrycak
03-12-2013, 09:53 PM
Y'all are so busy fighting amongst yourselves that none of y'all took the time to read my post about Dan Pastorini's assessement of Schaub..

cough - I specifically referenced you and him.

Mr teX
03-12-2013, 10:00 PM
Great post I-cak but u know folks here don't see the whole picture......largely b/c they don't want to. I watch every team play at least 1 game every year...and that's being conservative....every qb in the league has at 4-6 passes a game where his WR's makes him look good by catching passes that aren't quite where they should be.

Go back and look at Flacco's TD pass to a wide open Jacoby Jones behind the defense in the SB. Easy pitch and catch right? look how much Jacoby had to slow down to make that catch...if that's Schaub who makes that throw, people here are losing their minds..It was only a TD b/c Jones had the presence of mind to get back up after he fell catching the severely underthrown ball and make a few moves. The stat officially goes to both, however Jones is the guy who primarily made that happen, not Flacco.

mussop
03-12-2013, 10:02 PM
But what the hell, stats are meaningless.

They aren't meaningless they just don't tell the whole story. You want to convince people who watch Schaub consistently over throw wide open WR's you're going to need more than completion percentage and passes attempted.

infantrycak
03-12-2013, 10:15 PM
They aren't meaningless they just don't tell the whole story. You want to convince people who watch Schaub consistently over throw wide open WR's you're going to need more than completion percentage and passes attempted.

I didn't claim he over throws. But I will say when you look at 4000 passes, with 4 likely hall of famers and 2 other guys with SB rings and the overall efficiency comes out looking very similar then I think it is pretty damn strong evidence people's eyes/disappointment with the team are fooling them more than reality.

I am sure all 7 of the 40+ yard throws by Peyton/Brady were perfectly thrown/drops/perfectly defended/whatever freaking excuse or there would have been at least one completion and Schaub's 3 of 4 completions were all despite being a horribly inaccurate, noodle armed, backup only quality QB.

People are missing a significant reason for this thread - 30+ yard throws are rare, 40+ are hens teeth (.325% of pass attempts by high end to elite QB's).

Mr teX
03-12-2013, 10:22 PM
Maybe the timing issue is really about Kubiak's system and play calling?

Kubiak's system does not seem to allow for artistry in the QB position, but a methodical and predictable approach.

From what I see with my own eyes, and stats are not going to persuade me otherwise, the Texans have a problem with the deep ball.

I tend to agree with this....Kubiak's playcalling has more to do with whats going on with schaub than people want to believe. he's conservative by nature, you have to figure that some of his coaching to Schaub has been "make the safe plays" essentially only allowing for chances to be taken throwing the ball when guys are wide open....or when we have to. And schaub's progressions are most definitely short to deep 8 out of 10 times.

Mixing things up more would also help a lot too.

Texan_Bill
03-12-2013, 10:24 PM
I don't know if committing to progressions is such a bad thing. He's make the reads and figuring out the best receiver to throw it too. Maybe he's trying too hard and overthinks plays?

No.... Progression is not a bad thing at all. Pastorini was suggesting that sometimes Schaub shouldn't worry about progressions but rather trust that AJ (or whoever) would beat their man deep and commit to that throw.

cough - I specifically referenced you and him.

My bad Bro... I missed that.

infantrycak
03-12-2013, 10:37 PM
I tend to agree with this....Kubiak's playcalling has more to do with whats going on with schaub than people want to believe. he's conservative by nature, you have to figure that some of his coaching to Schaub has been "make the safe plays" essentially only allowing for chances to be taken throwing the ball when guys are wide open....or when we have to. And schaub's progressions are most definitely short to deep 8 out of 10 times.

Mixing things up more would also help a lot too.

OK but if Kubiak is so conservative and Schaub is only supposed to attempt hitting wide open WR's wouldn't that lead to non-conservative folks like Manning, Brady, etc. with better WR corps having more attempts and completions?

mussop
03-12-2013, 10:45 PM
So it has been customary of late to slag Schaub's arm whenever any WR is brought up. Latest example Mike Wallace - well he is too fast for Schaub. So decided to look at what we were missing out on. Since Wallace was what brought this up I looked up Big Ben first but below are some other prominent QB's (when I say thrown I mean in the air, not the result of the play):

Big Ben - 17 attempts, 4 completions, 23.5%. (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Peyton - 20 attempts, 7 completions, 35% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brady - 19 attempts, 6 completions, 31.5% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Flacco - 38 attempts, 8 completions, 21% (2 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brees - 32 attempts, 12 completions, 37.5% (4 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Rodgers - 13 attempts, 5 completions, 38% (1 completion over 40 yards thrown)

Schaub - 17 attempts, 6 completions, 35% (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)

Here's the kicker for you. All but one of those QB's had 3 TD's which were thrown over 30 yds - that was Brees with 4.

By the way that means these QB's attempted throws over 30 yds 3.9% of the time.

But what the hell, stats are meaningless.

They aren't meaningless they just don't tell the whole story. You want to convince people who watch Schaub consistently over throw wide open WR's you're going to need more than completion percentage and passes attempted.

Actually over throw was a poor statement. What I meant to say was that if you want to convince people who watch Schaub consistently throw inaccurate deep passes.

Mr teX
03-12-2013, 10:54 PM
OK but if Kubiak is so conservative and Schaub is only supposed to attempt hitting wide open WR's wouldn't that lead to non-conservative folks like Manning, Brady, etc. with better WR corps having more attempts and completions?

No not really. It's all in how a defense plays you as an offense, what your offense is built upon (bread and butter) and truthfully how the games go.......obviously if you're a team that likes to sling it, teams will run more nickel and dime packages to discourage you from doing what u like to do...

For instance, In blowouts the winning team tends to throw less while the losing team kicks it up a few notches in passing attempts. Spread offenses bread and butter are the short passes which typically = more attempts run based offenses like ours tend to throw it a little less.

There are also other factors. Manning has an entire offense designed around him...he's got complete control to do whatever; audible run to pass or vice versa.

eriadoc
03-12-2013, 11:47 PM
He had 0 INT's on passes thrown over 30 yds (the other QB's combined for 5).

I don't trust your stats.

1-10-HOU 30 (4:19) (Run formation) 8-M.Schaub pass deep middle intended for 86-J.Casey INTERCEPTED by 23-V.Davis at IND 35. 23-V.Davis to HOU 39 for 26 yards (81-O.Daniels).

That's 35 yards in the air, intercepted by Vontae Davis.

infantrycak
03-12-2013, 11:49 PM
No not really. .

You can attempt to frost this cake any way you want. I am sorry but over the course of a season and multiple different styled QB's your rationales fall away. At the end of the day the results weren't better on big plays. Someone should be really standing out particularly with this class of comparisons to lowly Schaub. You would think the holders of 9 SB rings would easily shine against Schaub with stats on this issue.

I don't trust your stats.

That's 35 yards in the air, intercepted by Vontae Davis.

I used the same source for all of them. I doubt ESPN was biased for Schaub.

Don't get caught up in the minutiae. The fact is these big names were not flinging the ball around 30+ yds with a great deal more success than Schaub. Y'all can rationalize it away all you want but that is a fact.

eriadoc
03-12-2013, 11:56 PM
I used the same source for all of them. I doubt ESPN was biased for Schaub.

*shrug* ... I just copied and pasted from the play-by-play on NFL.com.

powda
03-13-2013, 12:10 AM
Relying on stats here is foolhardy. Completing a deep pass does not and never has meant a qb has a strong arm or is a great deep ball passer. This whole argument of handing out credit based on a stat line is like saying Barry Sanders must've had a great line because of the stats he put up.

Furthermore, this whole circus is focusing on attempts and completions. How bout lost yards and scores on most of his completions. Again and again receivers a mile open had to wait for the ball while defenders got back in the play. Early in the season teams were burned fairly often by play action passes to the OPPOSITE side of the field. Scheme completions. It got on tape and it stopped because Schaub does not have a strong arm and is not a good deep ball passer. He's a rhythm passer who's solid in short to intermediate passes.

GP
03-13-2013, 01:18 AM
Good luck arguing on this thread.

Anywho, Matt Schaub is a stats QB. Good stats here, good stats there. Good stats EVERYWHERE! Yay!

The. End.

infantrycak
03-13-2013, 01:53 AM
Relying on stats here is foolhardy. Completing a deep pass does not and never has meant a qb has a strong arm or is a great deep ball passer. This whole argument of handing out credit based on a stat line is like saying Barry Sanders must've had a great line because of the stats he put up.

This is on a very specific subject which has been brought up repeatedly on this MB. If you don't like it, walk away.

Furthermore, this whole circus is focusing on attempts and completions. How bout lost yards and scores on most of his completions.

Again this is not a Schaub thread generally. It is on a specific issue. Long ballin'.

Early in the season teams were burned fairly often by play action passes to the OPPOSITE side of the field. Scheme completions. It got on tape and it stopped because Schaub does not have a strong arm and is not a good deep ball passer. He's a rhythm passer who's solid in short to intermediate passes.

Talking about balls thrown in the air here. Total and complete BS on they figured out we were running play action. Kubiak/Shanahan/Walsh have been doing it for several decades now. This isn't some new oh crap Schaub is doing it mid way through his 6th season with the Texans revelation to anyone but you.

You do realize an opposite side of the field throw counter-body is one of the hardest around, right?

Again - this is not a general Schaub thread. The point here is performance on balls thrown 30+ yds.

amazing80
03-13-2013, 06:57 AM
So it has been customary of late to slag Schaub's arm whenever any WR is brought up. Latest example Mike Wallace - well he is too fast for Schaub. So decided to look at what we were missing out on. Since Wallace was what brought this up I looked up Big Ben first but below are some other prominent QB's (when I say thrown I mean in the air, not the result of the play):

Big Ben - 17 attempts, 4 completions, 23.5%. (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Peyton - 20 attempts, 7 completions, 35% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brady - 19 attempts, 6 completions, 31.5% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Flacco - 38 attempts, 8 completions, 21% (2 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brees - 32 attempts, 12 completions, 37.5% (4 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Rodgers - 13 attempts, 5 completions, 38% (1 completion over 40 yards thrown)

Schaub - 17 attempts, 6 completions, 35% (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)

Here's the kicker for you. All but one of those QB's had 3 TD's which were thrown over 30 yds - that was Brees with 4.

By the way that means these QB's attempted throws over 30 yds 3.9% of the time.

But what the hell, stats are meaningless.

whered you get these numbers from?

cdastros
03-13-2013, 07:25 AM
Schaub gets his deap plays to wide open recievers off of play action, and under throws them. Other Qbs get thier deep plays on covered WR's, and throw them open.

thunderkyss
03-13-2013, 08:14 AM
In the analytics era, you can pull out any statistic and make any point you want seem truthful.


Okay, do it. Pull out your stats that show Matt Schaub has trouble with the deep ball.


Nice moral victory thread and this proves once again how delusional houstonians are with their quarterback.


Again, most of the people in this thread are as cynical as you about this point. Who exactly are you referring to? If I had to guess, most of Houston is not happy with Schaub right now.


This is why we got stuck with david carr for so long. Houstonians and the front office were gutless and refused to see what they had in front of them. They kept on making rationalizations instead of making an honest analytical decision and move on from the situation.


Again, most of Houston was ready to move on from David Carr at least a season earlier than the Texans were. Proving that how Houstonians & Houston Texans' fans feel about their QB has absolutely nothing to do with why David Carr was with the Texans for so long.


Its happening again with schaub.

You people deserve matt schaub and gary kubiak.

Again, this is a totally different beast all together from David Carr. The only thing you can point at with Carr that you might argue he was successful, was his completion percentage. David Carr has never experienced any kind of success as a Houston Texans or other wise.

And David Carr had everything we consider to be Matt's weaknesses, he was (at the time) young, he was mobile, he had a cannon of an arm. He wasn't a dummy, but he had no idea how to win in this league.

Schaub is slow, has a weak arm, looks like he's 40, has all the stats you'd want from a QB, led the league in passing one year, & made two pro bowls. Getting rid of Schaub right now, would be similar to getting rid of Brees after having a successful season post shoulder injury.

It doesn't make sense.

Again, I don't consider myself a Schaub fan, not in the slightest. Prior to 2012 I was probably his most vocal critic on this board. But what we've been seeing this last year, is just crazy talk. You don't straight cut a guy like Matt Schaub if you don't have someone ready to take his place. Had Tj went on a tear last year, similar to Russel Wilson.... yeah, Schaub shouldn't have got a new contract. But he didn't.

If the Texans were concerned about Schaub's health, then they should have drafted a QB last year.. maybe Russel Wilson in the third. But they didn't. If they have concerns this year, then maybe they should.... we'll see.

But how you or I feel about it will not play a factor in their decision.

thunderkyss
03-13-2013, 08:28 AM
Kubiak's system does not seem to allow for artistry in the QB position, but a methodical and predictable approach..

Signed -
Rosencopter


Numbers don't lie, but they don't always tell the whole truth. I don't know if it's his arm strength or if he's not technically right, but he's nowhere as good as some of the other QBs. In this instance "seeing is believing" saying applies to me. You only have to look at that Colts game where he fluttered a pass that was picked off and then overthrew AJ for another pick.

I think what Infantrycak's numbers show is how myoptic we are. We watch every Texans' game & analyze every snap, every throw, every drop. We know how often our receivers are turning around & slowing down to catch balls.

But we don't know to the same certainty how common that is. Anquan Boldin was a beast in Arizona & Baltimore because he can locate & adjust to the ball like very few receivers in the NFL can. That's part of the game.

The numbers clearly show Matt Schaub completes those passes with the same or better percentage than everyone on that list. No one is completing more deep passes (percentage wise) than Schaub. & his attempts are in line with guys "we" drool over..... Rogers, Ben, Peyton, Brady.

The only thing separating Schaub from those guys, is wins. If you think the QB deserves all the credit he gets from wins & all the blame he gets from losses then I understand the general sentiment around here.

But if you know this is a team game, then it doesn't make sense to me.

Flacco had a decent core of receivers when he came into the league. Mason I remember. But they said they have to get better at the skill position to go deep into the play offs. They went & got Boldin, they went & got Torrey Smith, & they picked up Pitta. The Falcons knew they would need more than Tony Gonzales & Roddy White to win (just win) in the post season, they moved up several spots to get Julio Jones.

Why is it that we think we should have won the Super Bowl by now, with Andre Johnson, Kevin Walter, David Anderson, & Jacoby Jones? If you blame Kubiak & Rick Smith for that, then why take your anger out on Schaub?

Again, I wanted nothing more, than for Tj Yates to light it up last season.. but he didn't. Schaub got his job back. That's the way it goes.

Texanmike02
03-13-2013, 09:12 AM
the problem is almost all of schaubs deep throws are off of play action and augmented with threatening running game.

THOSE ARE IDEAL LONG PASSING PLAYS AND YET SCHAUB STILL HAS TROUBLE MAKING THEM.

Some of those guys on those list they dont always work off of play action because of their respective system. Schaub will only throw the long ball if its the play his twin brother gary calls. Conservative gary will only choose long passing plays if its ideal and needed. Those other guys, their degree of difficulty is much greater than schaub. Throwing the deep ball is just one of many problems with matt schaub.

In the analytics era, you can pull out any statistic and make any point you want seem truthful.

Nice moral victory thread and this proves once again how delusional houstonians are with their quarterback.

This is why we got stuck with david carr for so long. Houstonians and the front office were gutless and refused to see what they had in front of them. They kept on making rationalizations instead of making an honest analytical decision and move on from the situation.

Its happening again with schaub.

You people deserve matt schaub and gary kubiak.

While it may be true that you can misrepresent stats, it isn't true that all statistics are misrepresented. I think this is a pretty good application of statistics. I do analytical work all of the time and have made quite a few changes that contradicted what everybody "knew" to be true. At the same time there is always pressure to "tell a story with statistics" and that can be done too. The only criticisim of this particular statistic would be that it is a small sample size (though there are ways to deal with that) but it is hard to argue to the contrary. Perhaps you could find an alternative to that statistic which proves the contrary?

With HWWNBN it was a slightly different situation. The only statistic in his favor was his completion percentage. Every other statistic pointed to him being less than adequate (I carried his banner for a little too long admitidly but it was a lesson in analytics for me). What are the stats you would use to suggest that Schaub doesn't have a good arm or is a sub par QB?

Mike

silvrhand
03-13-2013, 10:28 AM
So it has been customary of late to slag Schaub's arm whenever any WR is brought up. Latest example Mike Wallace - well he is too fast for Schaub. So decided to look at what we were missing out on. Since Wallace was what brought this up I looked up Big Ben first but below are some other prominent QB's (when I say thrown I mean in the air, not the result of the play):

Big Ben - 17 attempts, 4 completions, 23.5%. (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Peyton - 20 attempts, 7 completions, 35% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brady - 19 attempts, 6 completions, 31.5% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Flacco - 38 attempts, 8 completions, 21% (2 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brees - 32 attempts, 12 completions, 37.5% (4 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Rodgers - 13 attempts, 5 completions, 38% (1 completion over 40 yards thrown)

Schaub - 17 attempts, 6 completions, 35% (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)

Here's the kicker for you. All but one of those QB's had 3 TD's which were thrown over 30 yds - that was Brees with 4.

By the way that means these QB's attempted throws over 30 yds 3.9% of the time.

But what the hell, stats are meaningless.

This doesn't pass my litmus test, so I went digging..

For 20+ yard completions, I show that he was 16th in the league with 46 completions of 20+ yards. He was also what 14th with 8 long balls of 40+ yards or more.

Not only do the stats contradict yours, but in general the eyeball test for Matt is he doesn't have good ball placement has to be on a schedule, or else he's very inefficient. I still think Matt is a system QB, and that's all he'll ever be, but that's all Kubiak wants though IMHO.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_20PLUS_YARDS_EACH&tabSeq=0&season=2012&Submit=Go&experience=&archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&qualified=false

Dutchrudder
03-13-2013, 10:40 AM
This doesn't pass my litmus test, so I went digging..

For 20+ yard completions, I show that he was 16th in the league with 46 completions of 20+ yards. He was also what 14th with 8 long balls of 40+ yards or more.

Not only do the stats contradict yours, but in general the eyeball test for Matt is he doesn't have good ball placement has to be on a schedule, or else he's very inefficient. I still think Matt is a system QB, and that's all he'll ever be, but that's all Kubiak wants though IMHO.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_20PLUS_YARDS_EACH&tabSeq=0&season=2012&Submit=Go&experience=&archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&qualified=false

You're looking at plays of 20+ total yards, whereas Cak was showing passes of 30+ yards in the air, regardless of the result.

handswarmer
03-13-2013, 10:44 AM
So it has been customary of late to slag Schaub's arm whenever any WR is brought up. Latest example Mike Wallace - well he is too fast for Schaub. So decided to look at what we were missing out on. Since Wallace was what brought this up I looked up Big Ben first but below are some other prominent QB's (when I say thrown I mean in the air, not the result of the play):

Big Ben - 17 attempts, 4 completions, 23.5%. (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Peyton - 20 attempts, 7 completions, 35% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brady - 19 attempts, 6 completions, 31.5% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Flacco - 38 attempts, 8 completions, 21% (2 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brees - 32 attempts, 12 completions, 37.5% (4 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Rodgers - 13 attempts, 5 completions, 38% (1 completion over 40 yards thrown)

Schaub - 17 attempts, 6 completions, 35% (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)

Here's the kicker for you. All but one of those QB's had 3 TD's which were thrown over 30 yds - that was Brees with 4.

By the way that means these QB's attempted throws over 30 yds 3.9% of the time.

But what the hell, stats are meaningless.

Color me dumb but I cannot understand these 'stats'. Further explanation please?

powda
03-13-2013, 10:55 AM
Talking about balls thrown in the air here. Total and complete BS on they figured out we were running play action. Kubiak/Shanahan/Walsh have been doing it for several decades now.


I dont really see much that undermines my post. And your stance on Kubiak, Shanahan, Walsh having been there done that is asinine. Apparently no one in the NFL is capable of conjuring new plays/schemes because its all been said and done.

Mr teX
03-13-2013, 11:07 AM
You can attempt to frost this cake any way you want. I am sorry but over the course of a season and multiple different styled QB's your rationales fall away. At the end of the day the results weren't better on big plays. Someone should be really standing out particularly with this class of comparisons to lowly Schaub. You would think the holders of 9 SB rings would easily shine against Schaub with stats on this issue.



I used the same source for all of them. I doubt ESPN was biased for Schaub.

Don't get caught up in the minutiae. The fact is these big names were not flinging the ball around 30+ yds with a great deal more success than Schaub. Y'all can rationalize it away all you want but that is a fact.

Lol..i-cak i'm on your side in this debate my man, i just don't see the correlation you're trying to make with pass attempts and completions with completing the long ball. Just b/c the qb is better or you throw the ball more doesn't necessarily mean that you will be or should be completing passes of 40+ yards or more than everyone else....we agree there. My point however is that there are too many factors that contribute to that stat for it to be as cut and dry as you're presenting it.


Matt Stafford threw the ball 727 times last year...by far the most in the league. Yet he only attempted to throw the ball 40+ yds 25 times for a grand total of 7 completions...28%...pretty much right in line with the other qb's you listed in your initial post (stats from ESPN). You don't think the fact that opposing defenses know their offense is based primarily on them throwing it up to Calvin Johnson had any effect on that completion % and how they played them? or how about the fact that their defense couldn't stop anyone so they found themselves down big in a lot of 4th qtrs or the fact that their run game was trash? That stuff matters more than people like to admit.

With Kubiak's stubborn conservative ass playcalling, we overly commit to the run and i'm sure the pass plays he does call for Schaub throughout the course of games are high % designed to keep us in 3rd and short situations where we can run or pass. Hell, how many times have we all complained about the playcalling in 3rd and long situations and Kubiak calls a freakin draw? His playcalling is 1 of the biggest detriments to Schaub and our offense at times; I'm convinced now more than ever.

Dutchrudder
03-13-2013, 11:18 AM
Ok, lemme help you guys out. On ESPN and many other site, you can look at the "Splits" section of any player to get a boatload of situational information. For Schaub go here: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/5615/matt-schaub

If you look at the bottom of Schaub's page, you can see passes by distance, which is what Cak is using to create those stats. You can do this for any QB, and find similar stats for other positions. The one important to the discussion is passes of 31+ yards. You can see the ranges in this pic:

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/Sports/SchaubStats1.jpg

Note that these are passes in the air, which is why it shows incompletions. If Schaub throws a pass to Foster at the LOS and he runs it 80 yards for a TD, it won't be in the 31-40 stat shown, but it would show up in the stats Silvrhand was looking at as a 40+ yard play. That's the big difference. Check out Schaub's 21-30 yard passes to see his big deficiency.

The second set of stats in that list shows Schaub's stats based on field position. If you look at the 19-GOAL line, you can see his Red Zone stats. However, don't combine the 19-GOAL and 10-GOAL or you will be double-counting the stats. Schaub had 22 TDs this year, 14 of which came from the Red Zone.

eriadoc
03-13-2013, 11:23 AM
One of you stat gurus find me the number of completions Schaub has thrown where he underthrew the receiver and it cost yards and/or a TD. I've watched it.

dalemurphy
03-13-2013, 11:36 AM
One of you stat gurus find me the number of completions Schaub has thrown where he underthrew the receiver and it cost yards and/or a TD. I've watched it.

Yes, Matt Schaub sometimes makes imperfect passes. I'm not sure your point. Schaub is a good QB (somewhere between the 7th-15th best in the NFL), depending on the season, system, and personal preferences. Other than my 12 year old son, I don't think anyone is arguing he is in the class of Brady and Rodgers. Schaub played poorly the last two months last year. Nobody knows why but we hope it doesn't continue. What else needs to be said?

bOODRO87
03-13-2013, 12:07 PM
Matt needed the high altitude in Denver to hit WR's in stride on the long ball. That game is literally the only one that I can remember him throwing the long ball well in 2012.

Mr teX
03-13-2013, 12:09 PM
One of you stat gurus find me the number of completions Schaub has thrown where he underthrew the receiver and it cost yards and/or a TD. I've watched it.

Why do u keep bringing this up like he's the only qb who does this with regularity? Seriously, why act like this isn't the case for every single qb in the league? Again, go back and watch the superbowl. Flacco severely underthrew a wide open Jacoby Jones...Jones made the play to come back to the ball and wound up turning that into a TD...If the db was even remotely where he needed to be that's probably an incomplete pass /pick.

Every qb in the league underthrows/overthrows or misplaces throws to WR's in every game they play at least 4-6 times a game. The difference many of the times is the guy they're throwing to, whether he can make a better play on the ball than the db. That's why guys like Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald are coveted..they can turn bad decisions/throws into good ones.

Texanmike02
03-13-2013, 12:23 PM
This doesn't pass my litmus test, so I went digging..

For 20+ yard completions, I show that he was 16th in the league with 46 completions of 20+ yards. He was also what 14th with 8 long balls of 40+ yards or more.

Not only do the stats contradict yours, but in general the eyeball test for Matt is he doesn't have good ball placement has to be on a schedule, or else he's very inefficient. I still think Matt is a system QB, and that's all he'll ever be, but that's all Kubiak wants though IMHO.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_20PLUS_YARDS_EACH&tabSeq=0&season=2012&Submit=Go&experience=&archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&qualified=false

How many QBs aren't system QBs? Manning, Brady, Rogers... to a lesser degree Brees (had one good year pre Sean Payton). Luck. Hell RG3 (I'm a fan of his btw) has to be in the right system. Outside of those guys, how many guys can you put in a different system and expect the same kind of performance? (This is just off of the top of my head, I may have missed a few).



Mike

Texanmike02
03-13-2013, 12:28 PM
Since we're doing eye tests... Most of the top QBs in the league have one (or more) receivers that make great catches. Can somebody please come up with a list of top QBs that don't have receivers that bail them out? I really can't think of any. Brees throws to Colston, Flacco has Boldin and Smith. Hell Jacoby Jones made a phenominal move to score a TD on an underthrown ball. Which QBs don't have receivers that make phenominal plays and make them look great?

Mike

Mr teX
03-13-2013, 12:46 PM
Since we're doing eye tests... Most of the top QBs in the league have one (or more) receivers that make great catches. Can somebody please come up with a list of top QBs that don't have receivers that bail them out? I really can't think of any. Brees throws to Colston, Flacco had Boldin and Smith. Hell Jacoby Jones made a phenominal move to score a TD on an underthrown ball. Which QBs don't have receivers that make phenominal plays and make them look great?

Mike

fixed

76Texan
03-13-2013, 01:01 PM
No, Schaub doesn't have a big arm, but he's good enough to make the necessary throw in the WCO; that's all that matters.

infantrycak
03-13-2013, 01:03 PM
whered you get these numbers from?

Dutchrudder is correct - ESPN.

This doesn't pass my litmus test, so I went digging..

For 20+ yard completions, I show that he was 16th in the league with 46 completions of 20+ yards. He was also what 14th with 8 long balls of 40+ yards or more.

Not only do the stats contradict yours, but in general the eyeball test for Matt is he doesn't have good ball placement has to be on a schedule, or else he's very inefficient. I still think Matt is a system QB, and that's all he'll ever be, but that's all Kubiak wants though IMHO.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_20PLUS_YARDS_EACH&tabSeq=0&season=2012&Submit=Go&experience=&archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&qualified=false

Dutchrudder is also correct on this. Your stats do not contradict mine. They are just for something completely different. I spelled this out explicitly in my original post - this is on how far the ball travels IN THE AIR not the length of the end result of the play. Maybe your eyeball test should be able to tell the difference between those two basic concepts. The 41 yd WR screen to AJ to win in overtime - not in this. The 53 yd in the air pass - in this.

Color me dumb but I cannot understand these 'stats'. Further explanation please?

What is there not to understand? I think you are asking for conclusions and I was leaving those to each person.

ckhouston - try reading. This is in the air. It has nothing to do with dumping it to Foster and having him go 80 yards.

This thread was not intended as a general referendum on Schaub. I was surprised when I saw Big Ben's numbers and so started looking at some other QB's.

Double Barrel
03-13-2013, 01:53 PM
I'm pretty ambivalent about Schaub. I see his good, his bad, and I'm pragmatic in realizing that he's the best option at QB the Texans have right now.

So, fwiw as it relates to this thread, some anecdotal stuff:

Schaub’s deep ball impresses Patriots corner Aqib Talib

The Patriots have said all week they expect a very different Texans team on Sunday than the one they faced in December.

Patriots cornerback Aqib Talib said he’s seen changes on film and expects more in the game.

Asked what he thinks Texans quarterback Matt Schaub’s biggest strength was, Talib said it was Schaub’s deep ball.

“He can get that ball out there,” Talib said. “He knows the speed of his receivers; he’s real good on putting that deep ball on the money.”

Source (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/01/schaubs-deep-ball-impresses-patriots-corner-aqib-talib/)

silvrhand
03-13-2013, 02:23 PM
I'm pretty ambivalent about Schaub. I see his good, his bad, and I'm pragmatic in realizing that he's the best option at QB the Texans have right now.

So, fwiw as it relates to this thread, some anecdotal stuff:

WTF is with that quote, that's one of the things that always drives me crazy is Matt's long balls the receivers are ALWAYS waiting.. this is like Talib wanting Matt to go deep so he can chase it down and pick it off lol.

thunderkyss
03-13-2013, 02:48 PM
matt's accuracy has always been a problem even before his injury. Just look at the film, even short passes he has trouble making accurate throws. That's why you always see receivers having to make high difficulty catches on simple crossing patterns.

my god even his check down passes are horrible. How many times have you seen owen daniels having to make crazy catches on the account of schaub? Look at that last playoff game, horrible throw to andre in the end zone, horrible passes to casey, owen daniels where an accurate throw to a pass no longer than 20 yards would have netted a first down.

If we had a lesser tight end instead of a pro bowl caliber one, this weakness would be glaring much brighter. Even some of the throws to arian foster were ridiculously bad, that one throw vs jets or bears i think where foster had to lunge all out to grab a touch down pass just shows matt's accuracy problem.

With all that being said, matt's biggest problem is not his arm strength but his decision making. That is matt's biggest weakness IMO. He has shaky decision making, not very accurate and the problem is augmented with the fact that he's not athletic, fast, nor a playmaker.

But yes, lets sign him to a contract extension no way we can find anybody better than that. Its impossible....

Best post you've made so far. Also the best anti-Matt post I've seen in a while. These are issues that we've been debating about Matt Schaub for a long time.

I'm not saying you're right, or that you're wrong, but these points are at least arguable.

thunderkyss
03-13-2013, 03:00 PM
This simply isn't true. Schaub has a very long track record... college, Atlanta, and 7 years in Houston and his accuracy has never been an issue. He has always been among the leaders in completion percentage and the important stat: Yards per attempt.


I think what Jules is talking about is ball placement. He puts the ball in some of the darndest places. Arian's TD pass that he mentions, for instance, that might have been the best place to put that ball, away from the defender, in bounds, but Arian was going to have to make a play. I believe the pass to Andre in the endzone (the one he dropped) was similar, Aj should have come off his feet to catch that one.

The underthrown ball to Casey that was picked off...... that's been an issue since day one, one that I've brought up frequently. However, there is a quote where he says he does it on purpose to increase the odds of it being caught. 'cak's numbers & his overall completion percentage points to him being more right on that case (even though I hate it).

If you look at the two big plays Jacoby had during the play offs... both underthrown, but he had more time to locate the ball (because they were thrown high) & adjust. If they were thrown ahead of him, he'd have to run underneath it. We've seen receivers do it all the time, but we've also seen more of those passes (I think) graze fingertips, than the underthrown ones go incomplete. So I'm on the fence on the "underthrows it on purpose" argument.

& speaking of Jacoby, I think the reason he's not here, & KDub made another year, was that Matt simply didn't trust him. You go back to that Raiders game a couple years back where he was targeted 11 times & didn't catch 1 ball. Matt put those balls where Jacoby would have to do some acrobatics to have a chance & I think that was because he didn't trust Jacoby to fight off defenders.

But I've seen several throws to Walter & Daniels that were on the numbers when they had defenders on their backs.

Bottom line, his completion percentages always look good. But watching the game I can't help but question his placement.

Rey
03-13-2013, 03:06 PM
The ravens game where he threw the pick 6 in overtime a couple years ago...

Not that throw, but the 2 pt conversion that got us to OT was intended for andre. Jacoby caught it though.

76Texan
03-13-2013, 08:55 PM
Shoot, we've seen Schaub overthrow receivers deep before, even back then with Andre Davis, who was another speedster.

leebigeztx
03-13-2013, 09:09 PM
So it has been customary of late to slag Schaub's arm whenever any WR is brought up. Latest example Mike Wallace - well he is too fast for Schaub. So decided to look at what we were missing out on. Since Wallace was what brought this up I looked up Big Ben first but below are some other prominent QB's (when I say thrown I mean in the air, not the result of the play):

Big Ben - 17 attempts, 4 completions, 23.5%. (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Peyton - 20 attempts, 7 completions, 35% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brady - 19 attempts, 6 completions, 31.5% (no completions over 40 yards thrown)
Flacco - 38 attempts, 8 completions, 21% (2 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Brees - 32 attempts, 12 completions, 37.5% (4 completions over 40 yards thrown)
Rodgers - 13 attempts, 5 completions, 38% (1 completion over 40 yards thrown)

Schaub - 17 attempts, 6 completions, 35% (3 completions over 40 yards thrown)

Here's the kicker for you. All but one of those QB's had 3 TD's which were thrown over 30 yds - that was Brees with 4.

By the way that means these QB's attempted throws over 30 yds 3.9% of the time.

But what the hell, stats are meaningless.

An explosive play is considered 20 yds or more. Now you can twist the numbers how you feel,but the tape dont lie. How many times have you seen schaub just drop back on a 7 step drop and throw strikes? What about andre with a step and a half and he has to wait for the ball? They dont show up in the stat sheets, but we've seen it way too many times. You think mike wallace and torrey smith are better wrs than andre? Well both of those guys score more tds than andre because their qb can put it out there without playaction or a windup.

thunderkyss
03-13-2013, 09:14 PM
An explosive play is considered 20 yds or more.

You're right.


But that has absolutely nothing to do with the point Infantrycak is trying to make.

BigBull17
03-14-2013, 09:48 AM
Schaub looked great until December. He looked bad after that. I don't know why. Perhaps it was his foot... Some of his underthrows late in the year were inexplicable, and it did appear he could not drive the ball like he usually can (not that he has a gun). Hopefully, it was an injury that can/will heal or some other correctable issue. I'm not worried until I see those problems continue this coming year.

Watch the Denver game and then one from the end of the season and its hard to believe they are the same guy. Was like The Hulk turning back into Chad Pennington.

dalemurphy
03-14-2013, 10:40 AM
Watch the Denver game and then one from the end of the season and its hard to believe they are the same guy. Was like The Hulk turning back into Chad Pennington.

Yeah, some of those deep posts he tried to throw late in the year were pathetic... You seldom, if ever, see a QB step into a throw with no pressure around him and severely underthrow a post route without a safety on top of it. It was as if he was throwing a wet blanket. I hope, whatever it was, can be corrected/heal.

eriadoc
03-14-2013, 10:55 AM
Yeah, some of those deep posts he tried to throw late in the year were pathetic... You seldom, if ever, see a QB step into a throw with no pressure around him and severely underthrow a post route without a safety on top of it. It was as if he was throwing a wet blanket. I hope, whatever it was, can be corrected/heal.

There's nothing to correct or heal, according to stats.

powda
03-14-2013, 11:18 AM
There's nothing to correct or heal, according to stats.

Yup. No point even watching the games because the stat line tells us he's Dan Marino.

Sorry but this whole thread is silly to me. Maybe I just let my "Matt Schaub Sunshine Club" dues lapse.

dalemurphy
03-14-2013, 11:47 AM
There's nothing to correct or heal, according to stats.

I agree with ICak. I don't think Schaub struggles with the deep pass. I think he's quite good... However, I recognize he was awful throwing downfield in December and January. I don't think Icak would disagree with that assertion.

GP
03-14-2013, 12:03 PM
I'd care a lot more about this "exercise in objectivity" if, for once, the findings contradicted the OP's long held stance on the issue.

Another example of someone finding the stats that supports the original opinion. When has someone on here EVER said "Player X is pretty good!" and then found numbers and came back on here and said "Whoops, my bad. Player X sucks really bad!"

Heh. It doesn't happen.

Jacoby Jones' stats heading into 2011 were miles beyond David Anderson's stats. Not even close, except in one category of drops/fumbles IIRC. All other categories, JJ's stats were consuming David's stats like a midnight snack in the hands of a growing teenager. What happened? Jacoby stumbled and bumbled his way out of Houston after 2011........only to go and perform multiple VERY CLUTCH moments with the Ravens, in both the Broncos game and the Super Bowl game, and that tells us the following: Stats. Don't. Matter. Not when you look at the grand scheme of things.

I suppose since stats are kept, we look to them for validation of a player. They're on the back of trading cards, for Pete's Sake! They MUST be worth something. In the end, though, they're just that: Stats. Congrats on your stats! Where's your rings?

Rings > Stats. All day, every day. Forever.

EXAMPLE: This is why, IMO, the Texans let Quin walk. To be honest, he wasn't very clutch heading through December. We had a lot of deep plays thrown on us in the month of December. I think we all cursed at our TVs when we watched deep passes, on multiple situations, get by our safeties. Quin might have just been more of a liability for the dollar he was about to command. Ed Reed is smarter in the defensive backfield, so maybe it's an upgrade in the eyes of the coaches. Ed has more rings and more big-game experience than Quin does. Period. For that alone, it's excusable to let Quin walk. We were going to have to spend that coin on someone, Texans weren't confident in spending THAT coin on Quin. Just as a reference on the whole stats vs. rings example I gave earlier.

thunderkyss
03-14-2013, 12:48 PM
Another example of someone finding the stats that supports the original opinion. When has someone on here EVER said "Player X is pretty good!" and then found numbers and came back on here and said "Whoops, my bad. Player X sucks really bad!"

Heh. It doesn't happen.


We're looking at Matt's stats & saying, "See he wasn't that bad."

In another thread, we're looking at Quin's stats & saying, "See he wasn't that good."

But we all acknowledge the stats don't tell the whole story. In this particular instance, the stats were not presented to say, "Look, Schaub is a damn good QB."

They were presented to say, "Look, the gunslingers aren't as gunslingerish as you think." They're all just as conservative as Schaub & his completion percentage on those long balls is just as good.

But around here, you throw the word Stat & Matt Schaub out there & some people don't take the time to understand what context the stats are being presented.

I don't believe you can find anyone on this board to argue Matt played well in December. I may be the only one who would argue he played better in January, but some might misconstrue that & think I said he played well, so I'm not going there.

infantrycak
03-14-2013, 01:50 PM
I agree with ICak. I don't think Schaub struggles with the deep pass. I think he's quite good... However, I recognize he was awful throwing downfield in December and January. I don't think Icak would disagree with that assertion.

I don't disagree with that assertion at all.

I'd care a lot more about this "exercise in objectivity" if, for once, the findings contradicted the OP's long held stance on the issue.

What long held stance? I posted this thread with very little commentary. I explained the origin which was looking at Big Ben not Matt Schaub.

Everybody is so caught up in trying to make this a general referendum on Schaub which I have denied from the beginning.

Some of the things which struck me as interesting:

1) I was surprised to see the two guys with the biggest arms have such low completion percentages.
2) I was surprised to see the Texans were in line on trying to go down field with quite a few other teams.
3) I was surprised to see Manning and Brady had zero completions of over 40 yards thrown.
4) Frankly Flacco's regular season numbers made the Ravens post-season run more spectacular because they kept trying unsuccessfully during the season and then it paid off in the post-season.
5) I was surprised by the uniformity of TD's and the relative lack of INT's with Brees being the exception on both.

handswarmer
03-14-2013, 02:23 PM
4) Frankly Flacco's regular season numbers made the Ravens post-season run more spectacular because they kept trying unsuccessfully during the season and then it paid off in the post-season.
.

You have to remember the change in OC's from Cam to Caldwell factored into that disparity.

thunderkyss
03-14-2013, 02:52 PM
You have to remember the change in OC's from Cam to Caldwell factored into that disparity.

another, "handswarmer really needs to go to a Raven's board"

All Infantrycak said was he was surprised about the disparity. That's it. Didn't say he didn't understand the disparity. Didn't say he needed someone to "remind him" that Caldwell is better at coaching the deep ball than Cameron.

amazing80
03-14-2013, 08:20 PM
An explosive play is considered 20 yds or more. Now you can twist the numbers how you feel,but the tape dont lie. How many times have you seen schaub just drop back on a 7 step drop and throw strikes? What about andre with a step and a half and he has to wait for the ball? They dont show up in the stat sheets, but we've seen it way too many times. You think mike wallace and torrey smith are better wrs than andre? Well both of those guys score more tds than andre because their qb can put it out there without playaction or a windup.

How dare you use your eyes and common sense to determine our qb lacks consistent accuracy on deep throws and hampers this teams explosiveness. Stats tell all. Of course Mike Wallace is better than AJ. What kind of stu..........ya im done being sarcastic, you get the point.

thunderkyss
03-14-2013, 08:39 PM
How dare you use your eyes and common sense to determine our qb lacks consistent accuracy on deep throws and hampers this teams explosiveness. Stats tell all.


I think you're missing the point. The stats say that Matt is inconsistent & inaccurate. They also say that Roethlisberger, Rogers, Brees, Brady, & Manning are just as inconsistent & inaccurate.

What I'm saying, is that we make a mountain out of what is really a mole-hill.

It's not his deep ball, it's his clutch factor.

ObsiWan
03-15-2013, 01:01 PM
Y'all are so busy fighting amongst yourselves that none of y'all took the time to read my post about Dan Pastorini's assessement of Schaub..

I read it. Thought it was insightful from a guy who had the same job and should know what the hell he's talking about.

handswarmer
03-17-2013, 12:29 PM
another, "handswarmer really needs to go to a Raven's board"

All Infantrycak said was he was surprised about the disparity. That's it. Didn't say he didn't understand the disparity. Didn't say he needed someone to "remind him" that Caldwell is better at coaching the deep ball than Cameron.

Laughable. Mr Internet police.

If you don't want opposing fans here, why not lobby the mods to make a "Members Only" club complete with letter jackets and a monthly circle jerk as part of your paid subscription?

FWIW- infantrycak also didn't say that he DID understand the disparity in Flacco's numbers. A lot of fans of other teams didn't even know we fired our OC after the 13th game of the season.

Lighten up, Francis

kingtexan
03-19-2013, 10:38 AM
I didn't read all of this post, but it is very apparent that Matt Schaub cant throw the long ball. Hopefully that is what it was pointing out, and not making excuses for his lack of arm strength.

Double Barrel
03-19-2013, 11:07 AM
I didn't read all of this post, but it is very apparent that Matt Schaub cant throw the long ball.

lol! :choke:

Rey
03-19-2013, 11:39 AM
Where is the stats for how often schaub throws the deep ball off of the bootleg play action where he's throwing into one on one coverage or sometimes to a guy that's wide the hell open?

Schaub is regular. This offense lends itself to generating numbers. He's not doing what big Ben or Brady do. They might do play action at times, but their play action is not nearly the same..their offenses are different.

If those guys were in this offense our team would be deadly.

But instead we are stuck with a qb that's good enough to connect the dots, but can't paint a picture from scratch on an empty canvass.

If you think schaub is good at the longball you're incorrect. Put him in a different offense where he's constantly dealing with safeties over the top instead of this offense where the play design gets receivers in extremely favorable match ups and he's not near this borderline star qb that people believe he is.

Not saying we can't win with schaub, but he's not putting the team on his back and bombing us to wins due to his long ball prowess. Yeah right.

powda
03-19-2013, 11:44 AM
lol! :choke:

Seconded.

thunderkyss
03-19-2013, 12:49 PM
Schaub is regular. This offense lends itself to generating numbers. He's not doing what big Ben or Brady do. They might do play action at times, but their play action is not nearly the same..their offenses are different.

If those guys were in this offense our team would be deadly.

But instead we are stuck with a qb that's good enough to connect the dots, but can't paint a picture from scratch on an empty canvass.

If you think schaub is good at the longball you're incorrect.


Bottom line, the stats show those guys aren't any more successful delivering the long ball than Schaub is. IMO, that means we need to change what we think about the long ball, since our current beliefs aren't supported by the facts. I think, if anything, the stats show us that the long ball doesn't affect the game as much as we think it does. Then again, we did win 12 games.

If Ben & Brady's offenses aren't designed to get their players wide open, then Kubiak is a much better coach than I've been giving him credit for.

It's long been my belief that the thing that separates Schaub from the really-good to great QBs, is that they all have the ability to extend plays. One way or another if there isn't a good throw to be had, they'll either buy time getting out of the pocket, allow the play to develop or a receiver to come open, or they'll do what they need to do to pick up a first down.

Coming back from major neck surgery, Peyton Manning rushed the ball 23 times, picking up 2 first downs. His longest carry went for 10 yards.

By contrast, Schaub didn't pick up a rushing first down until the post season. He crossed the LOS 21 times (& I can't remember one of them) for a -9 yards. His longest run was 8 yards (go figure).

At the same time, I've seen our receivers run their routes, then stop & look to see what's happening. Where on other teams it seems everyone knows what to do when the QB leaves the pocket.

I won't lie, When I saw Matt Schaub play in 2009, I said to myself... we got a good one, maybe great. At that time, the only thing separating Schaub from the great QBs was the wins. I figured as soon as "we" start winning, people will think differently of Matt Schaub.

This, isn't what I had in mind though.

Rey
03-19-2013, 02:23 PM
If Ben & Brady's offenses aren't designed to get their players wide open, then Kubiak is a much better coach than I've been giving him credit for.


Ben and bradys offenses are built around them having more talent at the recieving positions than you can cover. They rely on their talent flat out bearing your db's coverage and having qb's good enough to make plays.

Not that they don't have good play design, but they aren't running plays where the whole offense makes it look like a stretch running plays and then all of a sudden receivers break into their routes.

How many times have you seen schaub on a straight drop back read the coverage, manipulate safeties maybe scramble and escape some pressure and then launch a ball hitting a guy in stride streaking way down the field?

The answer to that may just actually be never.

And if you haven't given kubiak good enough credit as an offensive mind then I don't know what to tell you.

Credit as an overall coach? Not from me. He's about average as a head coach overall.

I don't know qnd haven't thought about the Importance of the long ball being completed at a high rate, but I do know that CIRCUMSTANCES in which schaub delivers his long ball are different than a lot of other qb's based on the design of the offense.

76Texan
03-19-2013, 02:40 PM
It's not neccessary to run the play-action out of the ZBS.

The play action is where the QB doesn't take a straight drop back.
He relies on the scheme to draw some defenders up to play the run, and therefore benefit from the scheme.

Great QBs like Montana, Steve Young, Elway flourished in this scheme.

But Manning and Brady got their share of success out of it as well.

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=3185256&src=desktop

Rey
03-19-2013, 02:44 PM
It's not neccessary to run the play-action out of the ZBS.

The play action is where the QB doesn't take a straight drop back.
He relies on the scheme to draw some defenders up to play the run, and therefore benefit from the scheme.

Great QBs like Montana, Steve Young, Elway flourished in this scheme.

But Manning and Brady got their share of success out of it as well.

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=3185256&src=desktop


This thread is about the long ball.

How many of Matt schaubs deep balls come off of straight drop backs compared to other qb's?

76Texan
03-19-2013, 02:45 PM
This thread is about the long ball.

How many of Matt schaubs deep balls come off of straight drop backs compared to other qb's?

I don't know, do you?

Rey
03-19-2013, 02:46 PM
I don't know, do you?

I can ballpark it

76Texan
03-19-2013, 02:48 PM
On the other hand, I don't think the OP started this thread with what you had in mind Rey.

And BTW, if you would, please read the part about how Brady is one of the master of disguising the hand-off.
This is another piece that gives credit to the QB on the play-action, since the Pats rarely run the ZBS.

76Texan
03-19-2013, 02:52 PM
RG III ran a lot of play-action off the zone read at Baylor, and then with the Skins.

Andrew Luck got a lot of receivers wide open at Stanford running the play-action off of a man blocking scheme. (Even in man, you can make the blocking looks similar in both run and pass; and besides, you can always pull different lineman to help disguise the look the same (just different in the base concept.)

Rey
03-19-2013, 02:53 PM
On the other hand, I don't think the OP started this thread with what you had in mind Rey.

And BTW, if you would, please read the part about how Brady is one of the master of disguising the hand-off.
This is another piece that gives credit to the QB on the play-action, since the Pats rarely run the ZBS.

This thread is about the success rates and the amount of longballs being thrown.

And a regular play action is not the same as the zone stretch bootleg playaction we run...

A qb can be awesome at faking a handoff, but when you get an entire defense flowing a certain direction and playing like it's a run it's far more effective than a qb faking a handoff no matter how good the fake is.

Rey
03-19-2013, 02:55 PM
RG III ran a lot of play-action off the zone read at Baylor, and then with the Skins.

Andrew Luck got a lot of receivers wide open at Stanford running the play-action off of a man blocking scheme. (Even in man, you can make the blocking looks similar in both run and pass; and besides, you can always pull different lineman to help disguise the look the same (just different in the base concept.)

You're all over the place.

Not going down this rabbit hole with you. :tiphat:

76Texan
03-19-2013, 02:55 PM
Romo and the Cowboys got their share of the PA in the man blocking scheme while Aaron Rodgers got plenty of his off the ZBS quite a few years now.

Of course, Andy Reid is a WC guy, so his QBs always benefited from the scheme; from McNabb to Cunningham to Vick.

76Texan
03-19-2013, 03:04 PM
OK, let's stay current.

How much success did Aaron Rodgers get out of the ZBS?

Right here it tells us that he did for a long while (06-12), we just don't know much the Packers strayed away from the ZBS last year (but the Texans did, too.)

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1266981-scheme-adjustments-the-green-bay-packers-must-make-in-2012

Double Barrel
03-19-2013, 03:26 PM
Ben and bradys offenses are built around them having more talent at the recieving positions than you can cover. They rely on their talent flat out bearing your db's coverage and having qb's good enough to make plays.

Not that they don't have good play design, but they aren't running plays where the whole offense makes it look like a stretch running plays and then all of a sudden receivers break into their routes.

How many times have you seen schaub on a straight drop back read the coverage, manipulate safeties maybe scramble and escape some pressure and then launch a ball hitting a guy in stride streaking way down the field?

The answer to that may just actually be never.

And if you haven't given kubiak good enough credit as an offensive mind then I don't know what to tell you.

Credit as an overall coach? Not from me. He's about average as a head coach overall.

I don't know qnd haven't thought about the Importance of the long ball being completed at a high rate, but I do know that CIRCUMSTANCES in which schaub delivers his long ball are different than a lot of other qb's based on the design of the offense.

Some really good points. They do not undermine or diminish infantrycak's original point, as his premise was based on numbers and stats.

However, it is very interesting to look into how those balls are delivered and from what circumstances.

I cannot recall too many, if any, times that Schaub dropped back, manipulated safeties, and landed a deep ball in stride for a TD/long gain.

Is that due to scheme or talent? Or combo of both?

Vinny
03-19-2013, 03:29 PM
Some really good points. They do not undermine or diminish infantrycak's original point, as his premise was based on numbers and stats.

However, it is very interesting to look into how those balls are delivered and from what circumstances.

I cannot recall too many, if any, times that Schaub dropped back, manipulated safeties, and landed a deep ball in stride for a TD/long gain.

Is that due to scheme or talent? Or combo of both?
Andre Johnson....1500 yards and 4TD's. Four. That's almost impossible.

Let me just say that when your head coach comes out in public and states that we are not going to throw the ball to Foster because we don't want to overwork him...and then you don't throw the ball to Foster....well, you aren't exactly the Patriots.

76Texan
03-19-2013, 03:33 PM
And also we need to compare Schaub to players about his level, not guys that earn more.

Why do we even try to compare Schaub with Brady and Ben?

thunderkyss
03-19-2013, 03:56 PM
And also we need to compare Schaub to players about his level, not guys that earn more.

Why do we even try to compare Schaub with Brady and Ben?

Because the question is, "Can we win a Super Bowl with Schaub"

Until avg schmoes start winning the Super Bowl with regularity, we're going to compare Schaub to the guys that make a lot more.

Hopefully Flacco started a trend, & we got a shot.

infantrycak
03-19-2013, 05:50 PM
I cannot recall too many, if any, times that Schaub dropped back, manipulated safeties, and landed a deep ball in stride for a TD/long gain.

Well let's define deep - do you mean over 30 or over 40? I think prior to this thread many folks would have answered over 40.

Of course having seen the stats now they would hate to admit in 2012 Peyton and Brady NEVER successfully dropped back in any fashion and passed the ball 40 yds.

Anyway, I believe Schaub's 53 yd pass over the middle was a straight drop. I can't remember if he manipulated the safeties on that play. I can recall Gruden and a couple other commentators during last season talking about how well Schaub did exactly that.

Andre Johnson....1500 yards and 4TD's. Four. That's almost impossible.

Just shy of 1600 yds. Now that is one of the great mysteries of the universe.

Not that they don't have good play design, but they aren't running plays where the whole offense makes it look like a stretch running plays and then all of a sudden receivers break into their routes.

OK this is just out in left field. None of these plays are coming off AJ hanging around the line of scrimmage faking like he is blocking and then tearing ass down field and the guy he was blocking just goes f#$k it I will inexplicably let AJ run down field, maybe he wants a jog on this rushing play. You're just making stuff up. The WR's run routes whether they are running or passing. That is what makes it deceptive.

thunderkyss
03-19-2013, 06:29 PM
Anyway, I believe Schaub's 53 yd pass over the middle was a straight drop. I can't remember if he manipulated the safeties on that play. I can recall Gruden and a couple other commentators during last season talking about how well Schaub did exactly that.


I will say that he made more use of the pump fake this year than I've been accustomed from him.

Double Barrel
03-19-2013, 06:31 PM
Well let's define deep - do you mean over 30 or over 40? I think prior to this thread many folks would have answered over 40.

Of course having seen the stats now they would hate to admit in 2012 Peyton and Brady NEVER successfully dropped back in any fashion and passed the ball 40 yds.

Anyway, I believe Schaub's 53 yd pass over the middle was a straight drop. I can't remember if he manipulated the safeties on that play. I can recall Gruden and a couple other commentators during last season talking about how well Schaub did exactly that.


You have done an excellent job on this subject.

And it pretty much aligns with my own thoughts on Schaub, that his limitations are not physical but rather mental. Obviously he's not a mobile guy, but that's never been in question. That's a given. But he can sling the ball.

And while I never say never about his mental state as it pertains to carrying this team when it needs a QB to carry it in big games, he will have to prove it to us before I believe it at this point.

eriadoc
03-19-2013, 07:52 PM
Well let's define deep - do you mean over 30 or over 40?

Personally, I would say 20 yards, when you're talking about passes and not just pass plays. 20+ plays are tracked, as are 40+ plays. The latter happens so infrequently in the NFL that the former is really a long play. No one tracks 30+ plays, as far as I know.

Uncle Rico
03-19-2013, 08:03 PM
I've always thought that the Shanahan/Kubiak offense needed a mobile QB to be completely effective. In Schaubs early years in the offense he did much more bootlegs,rollouts and throwing on the run. Last few not so much. I think that Koobs cant run the full compliment of plays that he would like, thus handicapping what he can do with Schaub. Schaub just gets rattled. When it hits the fan, he hits the ground, balled up and sucking his thumb. His playoff performance didnt do anything to change skeptics minds about his play. Above average QB, nothing special. Andre Johnson should have 20 more TD passes during his tenure with Schaub if he didnt have to wait on balls.

infantrycak
03-19-2013, 08:30 PM
Personally, I would say 20 yards, when you're talking about passes and not just pass plays. 20+ plays are tracked, as are 40+ plays. The latter happens so infrequently in the NFL that the former is really a long play. No one tracks 30+ plays, as far as I know.

I don't think when guys are sitting around the table eating chicken wings and drinking beer they think of 20 yards as a deep ball. The stats you are talking about are on play result also so the pass may have been four yards behind the line of scrimmage and gone for 20. ESPN tracks in the air which was what I wanted to narrow down and examine and they do it separately for 31-40 and 41+.

When it hits the fan, he hits the ground, balled up and sucking his thumb.

This is just bogus. Schaub hangs and takes shots. Look no further than the back to back shots in Denver.

eriadoc
03-19-2013, 09:06 PM
The stats you are talking about are on play result also so the pass may have been four yards behind the line of scrimmage and gone for 20.

That is why I made the distinction between passes and pass plays. Perhaps I could have worded it better. Fact is, 20 yards in the air is a long pass play. It doesn't happen that often. I'd be curious to see percentage comparisons from the days before the WCO, but I'm sure no one has ever looked at that. Out of 544 pass attempts this season by Schaub, only 46 of them went for 20+ (9 more than 2011), 8 for 40+. That's a pretty small percentage, and that's even before we start really separating out the plays that you mention, where the receiver does all the work.

Like kickers, when you start talking percentages, you realize how close everyone is to each other. It's the difference in a few plays that separate the best from the good.

infantrycak
03-19-2013, 09:39 PM
Why do you keep going back to yardage results stats rather than in the air?

Damn you are really playing your stats too. "9 more than 2011" LOL. Schaub only played 10 games in 2011 (so in other words was on pace for 59 & 14.5). Try looking at the two prior seasons - 59 & 9 and 62 & 15.

It's the difference in a few plays that separate the best from the good.

Well the best were 0 of 8 and the good was 3 of 4.

eriadoc
03-19-2013, 10:22 PM
Why do you keep going back to yardage results stats rather than in the air?

Why do you keep overlooking my recognition of "in the air" stats? I have stated twice now that "in the air" 20+ is a long pass, and I have specifically distinguished that from "pass plays". I simply pointed out the overall 20+ to illustrate the fact that 20+ plays don't happen that often, and that is why I consider them long plays. So if 20+ plays don't happen that often, and 20+ in the air is an even smaller subset of that, clearly 20+ in the air is a rare play.

All of which just goes back to my point in the last post saying that I consider 20+ to be a long play. People can disagree all they want.

Damn you are really playing your stats too. "9 more than 2011" LOL. Schaub only played 10 games in 2011 (so in other words was on pace for 59 & 14.5). Try looking at the two prior seasons - 59 & 9 and 62 & 15.

Well the best were 0 of 8 and the good was 3 of 4.

I confess I don't even know what you're talking about, and frankly, I'm not that interested. I can go look at 20+ plays for other QBs if I cared enough, but that doesn't separate out the 20+ in the air plays. You claim your source does, but the very first and only play that I cared about earlier clearly breaks your source. Schaub threw an INT 35 yards in the air to Vontae Davis when your source said he had no INTs in that subset. Furthermore, every completion where the WR had to slow down from his wide open spot to let the ball and the defender get there is not factored into your source.

In the end, I don't care to parse stats. The man has an issue throwing a deep ball. Blame it on his foot, his mechanics, his arm, his head, or the offense; I don't care. I'm tired of watching the man play QB. If you disagree, that's cool. But you're not selling me on something else.

Texan_Bill
03-19-2013, 11:12 PM
:gun: WOW! Just wow!!

Dan Pastorini (and I've brought this up before) who was known for a very strong arm believes Schaub can make any and every throw necessary. He (Dante) believes that Schaub's footwork needs some improvement with regards to his deep balls.

76Texan
03-20-2013, 12:30 AM
The percentage of deep throws can vary depending on several factors.

Some teams like to go vertical more than others.
Coverage sometimes dictate the call.
Whether your team is behind by a lot or ahead by a lot, etc.


The most difficult is the deep out (besides the transcontinental pass).
These throws are supposed to be along the sideline, at depth between 35-45 yards.
As long as your QB can get the ball there on time (more often than not), you're fine.
This is why Pastorini doesn't complain about Schaub's arm.

On post routes or skinny posts, the actual distance is shorter as it's a straight downfield pass.
Sometimes, there are reasons why the QB might make the throw shorter.
If he (Schaub) can throw the deep out, it doesn't really make sense to complain about his underthrowing receivers down the middle.

One number that has some merit to look at is the Air Yard per Attempt, especially if you add all the seasons together (from 2007 until now.)

Schaub is going to be there around top 10 (with a certain minimum number of attempts, let's say 2,000). If you look it up, you will be surprised by the numbers of certain QBs that you think highly off.

One of the site that tracks it is SportingCharts.com

There's even one year when Schaub led the league in that category (if you take out the top rated guy (Todd Collins who was a backup and shouldn't qualify).

This number at least tell you who's dinking and dunking and who's not.
Specifically, you might want to compare Schaub with Brady.

thunderkyss
03-20-2013, 08:54 AM
Like kickers, when you start talking percentages, you realize how close everyone is to each other. It's the difference in a few plays that separate the best from the good.

I think the stats can show us that overall he isn't as different from the better QBs as many of us would like to believe.

However, in the past we've said we have a top 10 offense, or top 13 defense using NFL.com's ranking which goes by yards. when you look at points allowed, or points scored, we were more middle of the pack than anything.

Recently we've been able to say we're a top 5 offense & a top 10 defense, in scoring as well as yards & we've also been winning a lot of football games.

So when you look at scoring, Matt's "middle-of-the-pack" just like Flacco; 22 Tds. Of course, you have to factor in that we've got Arian Foster who led the league in rushing TDs. But the Patriots led the league in rushing TDs (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&season=2012&seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&role=TM&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&conference=ALL&d-447263-s=RUSHING_TOUCHDOWNS) & somehow Brady managed to throw 12 more TDs than Schaub (& Flacco).

Then again, when you think of who Brady could throw the ball to, who might score & you can come up with a list of names (http://www.nfl.com/teams/newenglandpatriots/statistics?season=2012&team=NE&seasonType=REG); Welker, Gronk, Lloyd, Woodhead, Hernandez, Stallworth, Riddley, Vareen.....

Make a list of players likely to score for Schaub (http://www.nfl.com/teams/houstontexans/statistics?season=2012&team=HOU&seasonType=REG); Andre, OD,
If anyone esle scored, we'd be just as surprised as the other team.

So the way I see it, Matt is Matt. I don't like the way he throws the long ball, but for whatever reasons, statistically he's on par with "the better" QBs in the league. His QB Rating (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&season=2012&seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-s=PASSING_PASSER_RATING)puts him in the Flacco/Eli tier.

He looked just as crappy/good to me at the end of the season as he did at the beginning of the season. He looked just as crappy/good in the pro bowl as he has his entire career. I don't question that we can win with Schaub (Freak'n Flacco won the Super Bowl with Jacoby Jones), I question whether the team can. Without a major upgrade in receivers, I don't see it happening.

& I don't understand why Kubiak would load up Arian with 600 carries, then keep him out of the passing game. Forsett is a fine receiver out of the backfield, & he's an ok runner. Casey... a fine receiver. If Schaub isn't going to make Kevin Walter look like Wes Welker, why aren't we getting these other receivers involved?

Mr teX
03-20-2013, 11:38 AM
You have done an excellent job on this subject.

And it pretty much aligns with my own thoughts on Schaub, that his limitations are not physical but rather mental. Obviously he's not a mobile guy, but that's never been in question. That's a given. But he can sling the ball.

And while I never say never about his mental state as it pertains to carrying this team when it needs a QB to carry it in big games, he will have to prove it to us before I believe it at this point.

I honestly don't believe the mental aspect of Schaub is even all on him...He shares that deficiency with his head coach; actually i put it more on Kubiak than i do Schaub b/c Kubiak just refuses to do certain things. Dre only having 4 TD's with 1500 yds recieving isn't simply him and Schaub not connecting in the red zone or schaub constantly underthrowing him deep on obvious potential TD's. it's more of Kubiak not looking for him when we're close and in the red zone.

I think everyone recognizes once we're inside the 15-10 yd line kubiak's playcallying goes ultra conservative...its the chief reason Foster's TD production has been double digits since he became a starter for us in 2010. If we do pass it, it's usually something underneath to a TE.....or to Foster largely b/c kubiak doesn't want to take a chance throwing it up to AJ. Kubiak is also not very creative calling plays either...Sometimes you just gotta put things on tape so coaches are aware that it's in your arsenal...Last year, we just play-actioned teams to death..teams got really used to seeing that & killed it.

Dread-Head
03-20-2013, 12:33 PM
Haters hate numbers. http://www.thedigichick.com/forums/images/smilies/tantrum.gif

No we don't. And you're forgetting the credo of our sect:

"Haters gotta hate."

Hater-ration, hater NATION!

76Texan
03-20-2013, 12:39 PM
No we don't. And you're forgetting the credo of our sect:

"Haters gotta hate."

Hater-ration, hater NATION!

I hate the term "Haters". :hurrah:

Dread-Head
03-20-2013, 12:40 PM
I hate the term "Haters". :hurrah:

We "haters" get no love.

76Texan
03-20-2013, 12:43 PM
We "haters" get no love.

I have love for you, brother, even though you can be an A sometimes, many times, often, LOL!

Dread-Head
03-20-2013, 12:45 PM
I have love for you, brother, even though you can be an A sometimes, many times, often, LOL!

I learned from Bill & Red-Zone

76Texan
03-20-2013, 12:46 PM
I learned from Bill & Red-Zone

You learn too damn well, hahahaha!

Dread-Head
03-20-2013, 12:48 PM
You learn too damn well, hahahaha!

There's an art to this...I've yet to rise to the level of master Bill and grandmaster Red-zone.

76Texan
03-20-2013, 12:52 PM
There's an art to this...I've yet to rise to the level of master Bill and grandmaster Red-zone.

Y'all are natural ... Pains in the butt! :whip: :spit:

otisbean
03-20-2013, 12:54 PM
:gun: WOW! Just wow!!

Dan Pastorini (and I've brought this up before) who was known for a very strong arm believes Schaub can make any and every throw necessary. He (Dante) believes that Schaub's footwork needs some improvement with regards to his deep balls.

I agree 100% with this. He holds the ball a tad too long and it looks like he opens up too much (for lack of a better descriptive phrase) on intermediate and deep throws. Pitchers can do the same thing which can cause wildness, particularly balls coming in high. It seems like alot of Schaub's intermediate throws tend to be high

thunderkyss
03-20-2013, 12:58 PM
it's more of Kubiak not looking for him when we're close and in the red zone.

I think everyone recognizes once we're inside the 15-10 yd line kubiak's playcallying goes ultra conservative...its the chief reason Foster's TD production has been double digits since he became a starter for us in 2010. If we do pass it, it's usually something underneath to a TE.....or to Foster largely b/c kubiak doesn't want to take a chance throwing it up to AJ. Kubiak is also not very creative calling plays either...Sometimes you just gotta put things on tape so coaches are aware that it's in your arsenal...Last year, we just play-actioned teams to death..teams got really used to seeing that & killed it.

I just can't get behind this. On any given down, on any given play, there is not one guy that Schaub is supposed to get the ball to, unless it's a screen. Other than a screen, Schaub is supposed to read the defense & decide where to go with the ball. If his first option is open, that's where he goes. If not, he goes to his second, & third, & so on until he has to decide to check it down, throw it away, or take a sack.

I remember during our divisional game against the Ravens in the 2011 season play-offs, Yates was told many time to trust Aj, give him a chance. I can't imagine Schaub doesn't have that same directive. But then we jump on him for "forcing" it to Aj.

76Texan
03-20-2013, 01:36 PM
I agree 100% with this. He holds the ball a tad too long and it looks like he opens up too much (for lack of a better descriptive phrase) on intermediate and deep throws. Pitchers can do the same thing which can cause wildness, particularly balls coming in high. It seems like alot of Schaub's intermediate throws tend to be high

Before 2011, these are the exact things that I'd like for Schaub to improve on; and he did in 2011.

In 2012, especially late in the season; it might have been the reverse.
As TK pointed out, it looks to me that Schaub tends to get rid of the ball a bit too soon at times.

Somebody mentioned that it looks like he doesn't trust the protection enough.

It could be that Kubiak had worked to instill in Schaub the thought of "living for another day" a little too much; or Schaub himself carried it overboard.

I have rewatched all the games down the stretch and I must say I'm not too happy with Schaub.

thunderkyss
03-20-2013, 01:46 PM
It could be that Kubiak had worked to instill in Schaub the thought of "living for another day" a little too much; or Schaub himself carried it overboard.


Or, it could be that he's trying to "step up" his game.

He knows that he isn't particularly fleet of foot. He knows that he doesn't have the strongest arm in the league. He knows that his ball placement leaves something to be desired.

If he's going to get better...... & the only thing he is "really" good at is getting rid of the ball quickly, maybe that means get rid of it quicker to him.

Who knows?

infantrycak
03-20-2013, 01:52 PM
Cool - within three posts Schaub holds the ball too long and gets rid of it too soon.

Just kind of funny. Reality is I am sure every QB can be accused of both on individual plays.

Mr teX
03-20-2013, 01:53 PM
I just can't get behind this. On any given down, on any given play, there is not one guy that Schaub is supposed to get the ball to, unless it's a screen. Other than a screen, Schaub is supposed to read the defense & decide where to go with the ball. If his first option is open, that's where he goes. If not, he goes to his second, & third, & so on until he has to decide to check it down, throw it away, or take a sack.

I remember during our divisional game against the Ravens in the 2011 season play-offs, Yates was told many time to trust Aj, give him a chance. I can't imagine Schaub doesn't have that same directive. But then we jump on him for "forcing" it to Aj.


You think Peyton Manning is dropping back surveying the defense every single passing play without a clue of where he's going with the ball and who's getting it before he snaps it? I guess that's why he's legendary for getting the ball out on time..............and staring his WR's down too then huh? Lol the bolded is not at all accurate; 99% of good starting caliber qb's know where they're going with the ball presnap...the really great qb's and HC's know how to manipulate the defense presnap to get the play that they want to the guy they want.....neither of which are to be confused with Schaub and Kubiak...1: b/c Kubiak and his playcalling aren't aggressive and creative enough and 2: b/c Schaub is afforded very little flexibility with audibling.


Furthermore, I'm talking specifically in and around the red zone...where it's pretty tough for the safety to get all the way over the top if a fade route is thrown and 2 where you especially want to spread the ball around to all your playmakers and be more creative with your playcalling thereby giving the defense more to think about. Kubiak did none of that. 9 out of 10 times its a dive or stretch play, curl routes/dump offs up underneath to OD/Foster...and we casually yard by yard move inside the 10 where we can't get anymore 1st downs and then we kick a fg.....unless Foster breaks 1 before we get to that point. I don't think i saw a fade or deep post/ post corner route to AJ 1 time last year.

Opposing teams see your tendencies & i just think that towards the end of the season, Kubiak didn't do his offense any favors by trotting out the same gameplan week after week with little to no creativity. Then i watch teams like the patriots get inside the redzone, bring in an extra tackle, making him tackle elgible forcing the defense to either call a TO or think just enough as they run it up in the EZ for a score...Sure they didn't use the tackle elgible as a WR, but it's on tape and becomes an ace in the hole for them in tight games/playoff games.

otisbean
03-20-2013, 03:47 PM
Haha, from what I've seen, on deep balls, he tends to hold the ball a bit too long. I'm thinking specifically on boot legs as it seems we take most of our deep shots off those. I do think his footwork could improve, but that's easier said then done otherwise everyone's footwork would be perfect. I think at times he checks down fairly quickly.

Personally I rather have a receiver slow a bit and make a 40 yd connection vs watching balls sail over WRs heads when they're open deep

76Texan
03-20-2013, 04:04 PM
Cool - within three posts Schaub holds the ball too long and gets rid of it too soon.

Just kind of funny. Reality is I am sure every QB can be accused of both on individual plays.

With Otisbean's observations, I think it's more of a case that there are instances that Schaub didn't get the ball out on time; and I agree.

In the latter part of the season, there were inconsistencies in his game.
On certain plays, IMO, he should have taken the time but he didn't.
And then on other plays, he could have gotten the ball out sooner but he didn't either.
His rhythm, again - to me, is out of whack.

It was rather frustrating in the reviews.
I wanted to whack him sometimes (others not helping him is another matter.)

The whole offense was out whack really; it was far from a well-oiled machine that they showed in certain other games; and that included untimely penalties and stuffs. It simply lacked cohesive; and I have to say the QB is at the forefront.

You know I'm not over-critical of Schaub, but his plays left much to desire.
I expected a little better, at least.

Dutchrudder
03-21-2013, 02:58 PM
Not exactly the long ball which the thread is about, but it's interesting to see how Schaub does against blitzes.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BF4XqGyCUAAleT5.jpg:large

Note that this stat does not take into account # of blockers.

Dread-Head
03-21-2013, 03:07 PM
Not exactly the long ball which the thread is about, but it's interesting to see how Schaub does against blitzes.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BF4XqGyCUAAleT5.jpg:large

Note that this stat does not take into account # of blockers.



:thinking: Odd...Schaub in the aforementioned stats has 1 TD but TWO INTERCEPTIONS. Interesting. Where's the GREAT JOE FLACCO on this list?

And prithe Flacco...*where art thou? Deny thy statistics...and refuse thy press clippings...

* I used "where" here instead of wherefore because "wherefore" technically is another way of saying "why".

Vinny
03-21-2013, 04:36 PM
Flacco plays in a more vertical scheme. Schaub does well in our dink n dunk scheme designed to have a choice of dump passes. That is why a guy like AJ can have 1600 yards and 4 TD's.

thunderkyss
03-21-2013, 04:54 PM
Not exactly the long ball which the thread is about, but it's interesting to see how Schaub does against blitzes.


Note that this stat does not take into account # of blockers.

:hankpalm:

Use your eyes man. Use your eyes. Peyton, Brady, & Flacco aren't even on that list... therefore it can not be used in any shape, form, or fashion as evidence to the value of a "good" to "great" QB.


OT: the player from Texas fan in me is aweful anxious to see what happens with that Tannehill fella

disaacks3
03-21-2013, 05:32 PM
And also we need to compare Schaub to players about his level, not guys that earn more.

Why do we even try to compare Schaub with Brady and Ben? You're kidding , right? When the man who owns the team and the HC think he's good enough to get us to a Super Bowl, then let's see how he compares to those who do.

If he (Schaub) can throw the deep out, it doesn't really make sense to complain about his underthrowing receivers down the middle. Really? So, if you offense commonly gets the WR/TE free deep over the middle and your QB hangs it up there like a punt, you don't have any reason to complain? Maybe not all his fault though (see below).

I honestly don't believe the mental aspect of Schaub is even all on him...He shares that deficiency with his head coach; actually i put it more on Kubiak than i do Schaub b/c Kubiak just refuses to do certain things. Dre only having 4 TD's with 1500 yds recieving isn't simply him and Schaub not connecting in the red zone or schaub constantly underthrowing him deep on obvious potential TD's. it's more of Kubiak not looking for him when we're close and in the red zone. I agree with this and it's been said before by Schaub that his instructions are to put it up there and let his receiver go get it. (I'm guessing the theory being that a 30 yd. completion is better than the potential miss vs. potential TD.)

I just can't get behind this. On any given down, on any given play, there is not one guy that Schaub is supposed to get the ball to, unless it's a screen. Other than a screen, Schaub is supposed to read the defense & decide where to go with the ball. If his first option is open, that's where he goes. If not, he goes to his second, & third, & so on until he has to decide to check it down, throw it away, or take a sack.

I remember during our divisional game against the Ravens in the 2011 season play-offs, Yates was told many time to trust Aj, give him a chance. I can't imagine Schaub doesn't have that same directive. But then we jump on him for "forcing" it to Aj. True to a point, but Schaub also forces it to AJ when other guys are wide open because he likes his security blanket. All things being equal, I'd go to AJ too, but he does it in very UNequal circumstances as well.

99% of good starting caliber qb's know where they're going with the ball presnap...the really great qb's and HC's know how to manipulate the defense presnap to get the play that they want to the guy they want. On rare instances, that's true, but 95+% of the time, neither Brady, Manning, Rodgers, et al. are reading the coverages DOWNfield and determining the best target to throw to. Reading your progressions quickly is what makes for a good NFL QB. Manning is one of the best in the business with finding the open receiver as a play drags on.

infantrycak
03-21-2013, 06:19 PM
Really? So, if you offense commonly gets the WR/TE free deep over the middle and your QB hangs it up there like a punt, you don't have any reason to complain? Maybe not all his fault though (see below).

I agree with this and it's been said before by Schaub that his instructions are to put it up there and let his receiver go get it. (I'm guessing the theory being that a 30 yd. completion is better than the potential miss vs. potential TD.)

I have to say I both understand the criticism and like the result better. Carr had a cannon for an arm but it was so frustrating watching him overthrow Bradford and AJ by 5 yards. Yeah, I would rather have the 30 yard completion than the ball bouncing on the field in front of them.

I also think people really under appreciate how difficult it is to chuck a ball into a theoretical pickle barrel which is moving under its own plan while jacking with at least one defender 40 yards down the field while one or more people who intend to hurt you are about to pound you into sand.

No doubt about it, Schaub is not a Staubach or Elway. Those cats are rare.

True to a point, but Schaub also forces it to AJ when other guys are wide open because he likes his security blanket. All things being equal, I'd go to AJ too, but he does it in very UNequal circumstances as well.

I'd "force" it to AJ too. He is the most reliable receiver. Throwing to a triple covered AJ is sometimes the safer throw than throwing to Martin who is very likely to go "oh crap a football."

76Texan
03-21-2013, 06:36 PM
I have to say I both understand the criticism and like the result better. Carr had a cannon for an arm but it was so frustrating watching him overthrow Bradford and AJ by 5 yards. Yeah, I would rather have the 30 yard completion than the ball bouncing on the field in front of them.

I also think people really under appreciate how difficult it is to chuck a ball into a theoretical pickle barrel which is moving under its own plan while jacking with at least one defender 40 yards down the field while one or more people who intend to hurt you are about to pound you into sand.

No doubt about it, Schaub is not a Staubach or Elway. Those cats are rare.



I'd "force" it to AJ too. He is the most reliable receiver. Throwing to a triple covered AJ is sometimes the safer throw than throwing to Martin who is very likely to go "oh crap a football."
Obviously, anybody who wants to compare Schaub with those guys (including Brady and Rodgers) can do so if he pleases, but why bother?

We already know that Schaub doesn't stack up to them at the moment.

But to say criticize Schaub because of it makes little sense.
This team isn't built (financially) to rely on Schaub as heavily as those other teams relying on the elite QBs.

The extra money goes to AJ to help out Matt Schaub, Foster to help avoiding third and long, and the defense to stop the opponents to give Schaub better chance (short field/turnover, etc.)

We even spent resources on getting ST players for the same reason.

76Texan
03-21-2013, 06:40 PM
The core of this thread is basically about Schaub's arm strength, which leads to accuracy or the lack of it.

If a guy can throw a deep out on a natural projection, he has the arm strength to throw the ball straight downfield because it is a shorter distance; simple as that.

The reason that some ball hang is not because of his lack of arm strength.

silvrhand
03-23-2013, 09:53 AM
Obviously, anybody who wants to compare Schaub with those guys (including Brady and Rodgers) can do so if he pleases, but why bother?

We already know that Schaub doesn't stack up to them at the moment.

But to say criticize Schaub because of it makes little sense.
This team isn't built (financially) to rely on Schaub as heavily as those other teams relying on the elite QBs.

The extra money goes to AJ to help out Matt Schaub, Foster to help avoiding third and long, and the defense to stop the opponents to give Schaub better chance (short field/turnover, etc.)

We even spent resources on getting ST players for the same reason.

I think the reason people do that is because if you look at who's winning the superbowls, it's those guys. We all want to win the superbowl, but winning it with Trent Dilfer is very rare..