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mussop
03-04-2013, 09:51 AM
And no word on Quin or Barwin. Seems we are more likely to lose both if they are allowed to test the open market.

HOU-TEX
03-04-2013, 10:04 AM
And no word on Quin or Barwin. Seems we are more likely to lose both if they are allowed to test the open market.

Oh well, neither are worth franchising imo. I'd like them both back, but not if it'll put us in more of a bind than we already are

CretorFrigg
03-04-2013, 12:01 PM
Oh well, neither are worth franchising imo. I'd like them both back, but not if it'll put us in more of a bind than we already are

Agreed, franchising either Quin or Barwin would mean we'd have to overpay them. Neither of them are top 5 at their position. They don't deserve to be paid like one. I wouldn't be against Barwin leaving, but I'd like to see Quin back, and that's the common perception I've noticed around these boards.

I'm confident the FO can work things out with Quin and not have to resort to overpay (franchise) him.

Thorn
03-04-2013, 12:34 PM
I think Barwin is worth more to us than some give him credit for, but not for top 5 pay at the postion. It'll hurt if he leaves, but it'll hurt more if we overpay him. It's not a very good situation for the Texans to be in.

El Tejano
03-04-2013, 12:42 PM
People keep saying that Quin isn't worth keeping and I have to go back and think about how our team was before we had quality safety play.

thunderkyss
03-04-2013, 01:10 PM
I think Barwin is worth more to us than some give him credit for, but not for top 5 pay at the postion. It'll hurt if he leaves, but it'll hurt more if we overpay him. It's not a very good situation for the Texans to be in.

If he leaves, I think there's no way you move Reed inside. I don't know of anyone else on the team who can play SLB.....

I am not convinced Mercilus can handle WOLB, but I don't think it does any good to have Barwin "push" him. Barwin is a fine pass rusher, but he's not a double digit sack guy & that's what we need at WOLB.

So regardless what we do with Barwin, we need to find another guy to share the WOLB position with Whitney. Someone who might be a double digit sack guy

tru80texan
03-04-2013, 01:32 PM
If he leaves, I think there's no way you move Reed inside. I don't know of anyone else on the team who can play SLB.....

I am not convinced Mercilus can handle WOLB, but I don't think it does any good to have Barwin "push" him. Barwin is a fine pass rusher, but he's not a double digit sack guy & that's what we need at WOLB.

So regardless what we do with Barwin, we need to find another guy to share the WOLB position with Whitney. Someone who might be a double digit sack guy

Seems you are quick to judge on Mercilus & Barwin. I can't say what either one are completely capable of, but I do know Barwin has registered double digit sacks & registered 4.5, which was half the total of the gentle giants sack total that season, in very limited action as a rookie. Barwin had a down year & didn't earn a big pay day by his own doing, but he has shown potential & has already accomplished double digit sacks which you stated he wasn't capable of...obviously that was wrong.

Mercilus has only had his rookie season & it would've been an uphill battle for him to supplant Reed or Barwin. When he did get in he had some success. I thinks it's a bit premature to assume he isn't capable of holding down an OLB position as starter based on part time duty as a rookie. He's a 2nd yr player now & young players have proven they can produce early in their careers. I'm not quite ready to cast Mercilus off after one season. A rookie could be brought in to start opposite of Mercilus or next to Cushing. I honestly believe LB could be the 1st pick & will possibly be the best available if he is capable of starting at olb or ILB.

Lurvinator11
03-04-2013, 01:50 PM
I read in the chronicle this morning that they will NOT be using the tag. That just means we have until march 12th to resign. It would be cheaper to resign, and make the cap hit for them small. But you don't want to give them to possibility to jump. All I know is if Quinn doesn't get resigned, I'm going to be incredibly pissed. Rick smith will become public enemy number 1 for me.

tru80texan
03-04-2013, 01:56 PM
I read in the chronicle this morning that they will NOT be using the tag. That just means we have until march 12th to resign. It would be cheaper to resign, and make the cap hit for them small. But you don't want to give them to possibility to jump. All I know is if Quinn doesn't get resigned, I'm going to be incredibly pissed. Rick smith will become public enemy number 1 for me.

It seems the Texans have decided not use the franchise tag, as you stated, according the John McLame(McClain) of the Chronicle. Here's a link w/ a copy of the tweet from McLame.
http://www.stateofthetexans.com/?p=10659

I agree as far as Rick Smith, I haven't been overly impressed by the job he has done so far considering he did his best work, IMO, only when he felt his job was on the line following the 2010 season & by his & Kubiak's admission Wade played a key role in acquiring Watt & Reed. Losing key members of the team 2 seasons in a row because of a salary cap mess that he created his unacceptable IMO.

Lurvinator11
03-04-2013, 02:13 PM
It seems the Texans have decided not use the franchise tag, as you stated, according the John McLame(McClain) of the Chronicle. Here's a link w/ a copy of the tweet from McLame.
http://www.stateofthetexans.com/?p=10659

I agree as far as Rick Smith, I haven't been overly impressed by the job he has done so far considering he did his best work, IMO, only when he felt his job was on the line following the 2010 season & by his & Kubiak's admission Wade played a key role in acquiring Watt & Reed. Losing key members of the team 2 seasons in a row because of a salary cap mess that he created his unacceptable IMO.

I have been a big supporter of Rick, as felt he has done a good job drafting and keeping the players we need to keep. The players we let go last season, I can understand why we let them go. To me, Quinn is the player that would hurt the most if we lost him. Rick knows that, and I hope we hear a deal very soon.

tru80texan
03-04-2013, 02:19 PM
I have been a big supporter of Rick, as felt he has done a good job drafting and keeping the players we need to keep. The players we let go last season, I can understand why we let them go. To me, Quinn is the player that would hurt the most if we lost him. Rick knows that, and I hope we hear a deal very soon.

Those players lost last season obviously meant more to the team then many believed & we learned that the hard way as those positions struggled & now many feel they are needs. I understand that Winston & Ryans were let go because of salary cap issues, but once again those issues were Smith's doing & are still hurting this team w/ the loss of key players & the potential loss of more.

I hope you are right concerning Quin & how Smith views & values him, but I truly have my doubts in what Smith is capable of. Time will tell...

Corrosion
03-04-2013, 02:36 PM
Oh well, neither are worth franchising imo. I'd like them both back, but not if it'll put us in more of a bind than we already are

I agree with you for the most part .... I dont think either is worth the franchise number.

Just wonder , what do you think Quin's value is both to the Texans and on the open market.

Lurvinator11
03-04-2013, 02:39 PM
Those players lost last season obviously meant more to the team then many believed & we learned that the hard way as those positions struggled & now many feel they are needs. I understand that Winston & Ryans were let go because of salary cap issues, but once again those issues were Smith's doing & are still hurting this team w/ the loss of key players & the potential loss of more.

I hope you are right concerning Quin & how Smith views & values him, but I truly have my doubts in what Smith is capable of. Time will tell...

Not only were they let go due to salary cap issues, but their production was on the downhill. As an every other down back, ryans was being overpaid. Plus he didn't fit well into the system. I'm glad we got value for him. Great player, just didn't fit well in a 3-4 scheme. Winston seemed like he had already hit his peak, and we weren't going to get much more out of him. That and he committed a lot of penalties. Sure, losing them hurt our team a bit, but I feel like we could get better production through the draft.

SheTexan
03-04-2013, 02:49 PM
I read in the chronicle this morning that they will NOT be using the tag. That just means we have until march 12th to resign. It would be cheaper to resign, and make the cap hit for them small. But you don't want to give them to possibility to jump. All I know is if Quinn doesn't get resigned, I'm going to be incredibly pissed. Rick smith will become public enemy number 1 for me.

After our past discussions on RS, this really gave me a good laugh. You know my feelings about him, and they haven't changed. I backed off posting about my intense dislike for him because of you, and now all I've gotta say is I TOLD YA SO!! Our failure to make it to the SB last year lies solely at his feet, JMO!!! I'm not gonna debate the issues either because it only leads to arguments, and besides, what's done is done, and we have to move on.

TexansSeminole
03-04-2013, 02:51 PM
I agree with you for the most part .... I dont think either is worth the franchise number.

Just wonder , what do you think Quin's value is both to the Texans and on the open market.

I think Quin has high, high value. He can man up on slot or TEs effectively and is stout against the run. He fits our scheme very well. He is everything that Wade would want in a safety for his scheme. It is very important for us to either keep Quin, or to replace him with a very competent player. He is absolutely key to our defense, without him we are much, much worse on defense.

Quin is certainly worth top 5 safety money for not only his versatility but for what he means to our team. He is a leader to not only younger guys but vets view him that way as well.

Not retaining Quin would be a huge mistake in my opinion.

Lurvinator11
03-04-2013, 03:01 PM
After our past discussions on RS, this really gave me a good laugh. You know my feelings about him, and they haven't changed. I backed off posting about my intense dislike for him because of you, and now all I've gotta say is I TOLD YA SO!! Our failure to make it to the SB last year lies solely at his feet, JMO!!! I'm not gonna debate the issues either because it only leads to arguments, and besides, what's done is done, and we have to move on.

Wow. Look at the classy attitude from shetexan. I will not concede my opinions on him and admit you were right, because you weren't. I would be upset if I we lose Quinn, but that doesn't automatically overturn every good thing RS ha done for this team, which you foolishly overlook due to your warped and biased view. And no, it does not solely lie at his feet. This is a team game, not a blame game. The failure of our team lies on the team, not the GM whose sole responsibility is to sign players who are good for our team, which he has done.

tru80texan
03-04-2013, 03:09 PM
Not only were they let go due to salary cap issues, but their production was on the downhill. As an every other down back, ryans was being overpaid. Plus he didn't fit well into the system. I'm glad we got value for him. Great player, just didn't fit well in a 3-4 scheme. Winston seemed like he had already hit his peak, and we weren't going to get much more out of him. That and he committed a lot of penalties. Sure, losing them hurt our team a bit, but I feel like we could get better production through the draft.

I disagree on the production going downhill concerning Ryans. His production decline early in 2011 was because he was still recovering IMO. His production picked towards the end of the season & that was acknowledged by Kubiak as well as others. Assuming Ryans production wasn't going to be effected to some degree 1 year removed from an Achilles injury in pure foolishness IMO. Holding that against him is hardly fair or an accurate judgement of Ryans abilities. Ryans rebounded very well this season & looked like his old self & it seems the new regime in Philly feel Ryans is very much capable of playing in the 3-4. I tend to believe them. The myth that Ryans wasn't suited for the 3-4 was generated by most of the same folks that foolishly assumed that James could easily replace him. I think they were obviously wrong on James as a replacement & will ultimately be wrong on what Ryans is capable of in a 3-4 scheme. Ryans was making too much for only being a 2 down LB, but that's what happens when a player starts next to the likes of Cushing in Wade's scheme. The better player stays on the field, but Ryans is still very good in his own right & claiming his production is down seems to be completely false considering his production just this past season. The numbers speak for themselves.

As far as Winston, his production may have been slipping some as a Texan but he too performed well for is new team as it seems the Texans misjudged the talent level of Butler & Newton. I admit I thought Butler could possibly fill the void, but that didn't happen & I was wrong just as they were. Once again the salary cap is a beast that was created by Smith & he has yet to tame it & it is costing the Texans quality players in the process.

I do agree that Winston & Ryans may have needed to go because of salary cap numbers, but not because of their production. They are both still quality players that are better then what we currently have at their positions & money was the reason they are no longer here & that is easily proven w/ the production this past season.

drs23
03-04-2013, 03:11 PM
I think Quin has high, high value. He can man up on slot or TEs effectively and is stout against the run. He fits our scheme very well. He is everything that Wade would want in a safety for his scheme. It is very important for us to either keep Quin, or to replace him with a very competent player. He is absolutely key to our defense, without him we are much, much worse on defense.

Quin is certainly worth top 5 safety money for not only his versatility but for what he means to our team. He is a leader to not only younger guys but vets view him that way as well.

Not retaining Quin would be a huge mistake in my opinion.

I believe I'm one of many that agree 100%. They need to find a way to do it. GQ is WAY to important as a major cog in the defensive machine to let get away. If he hits the open market, he's gone. That will/would be a sad, sad day in Texanville.

tru80texan
03-04-2013, 03:17 PM
Wow. Look at the classy attitude from shetexan. I will not concede my opinions on him and admit you were right, because you weren't. I would be upset if I we lose Quinn, but that doesn't automatically overturn every good thing RS ha done for this team, which you foolishly overlook due to your warped and biased view. And no, it does not solely lie at his feet. This is a team game, not a blame game. The failure of our team lies on the team, not the GM whose sole responsibility is to sign players who are good for our team, which he has done.

Managing the salary cap & players is not a team game, it's a Rick Smith & FO responsibility. Failing in that area is on Smith IMO. Obviously not all of decisions have been the right ones or the Texans wouldn't continue to be in salary cap despair & losing quality to players. I understand it happens to all teams, but others seem to find ways to keep quality players or replace them w/ such as opposed to always hoping that the teams needs can be filled yr in & yr out by a rookie...very similar to what we are once again hoping for this year.

infantrycak
03-04-2013, 03:31 PM
Quin is certainly worth top 5 safety money for not only his versatility but for what he means to our team. He is a leader to not only younger guys but vets view him that way as well.

I would like to keep Quin but where do you get all this leadership stuff from?

TexansSeminole
03-04-2013, 03:35 PM
I would like to keep Quin but where do you get all this leadership stuff from?

Jonathan Joseph has made comments several times in regards to Quin's natural leadership ability. Early on he spoke about encouraging Quin to embrace his natural ability to be a leader. He and another Texan, maybe Manning, spoke about it again last year. I would have to look up the quotes, but they are somewhere for sure.

Here is an article after the season was over where JJ stressed the need to retain Quin: http://www.csnhouston.com/football-houston-texans/talk/joseph-gap-between-texans-pats-not-big

I'll find some old quotes today.

thunderkyss
03-04-2013, 03:46 PM
Seems you are quick to judge on Mercilus & Barwin. I can't say what either one are completely capable of, but I do know Barwin has registered double digit sacks & registered 4.5, which was half the total of the gentle giants sack total that season, in very limited action as a rookie. Barwin had a down year & didn't earn a big pay day by his own doing, but he has shown potential & has already accomplished double digit sacks which you stated he wasn't capable of...obviously that was wrong.


I don't see how one could be happy with Barwin & not happy with Mario. Even before the $100M pay day. If Mario had a season like Barwin had in 2012, it would be straight for the chopping block.

I don't think Barwin is a double digit sack guy. I think Wade's system got Barwin double digit sacks. Had he been a true double digit guy, I believe he would have been approaching 1 sack per game kind of numbers; partially due to natural ability, partially due to the system. You take a 5-6 sack/year guy & put him at WOLB he should get you about 11 sacks (& all the pressures & hurries that go along with them). You take a 10 sack guy in Wade's system at WOLB, you should have a 16+ sack season. To get 11 & then follow it up with 4-5.... when he was healthy all year, he's not the pass rusher we need. But you're right, it's only been 4 years. He's got great potential.

I'd like to see him on the strong side & get me those 5-6 sacks from there. With Watt, Antonio, and a true menace on the weakside, maybe we'll get 8 sacks from him.



Mercilus has only had his rookie season & it would've been an uphill battle for him to supplant Reed or Barwin. When he did get in he had some success. I thinks it's a bit premature to assume he isn't capable of holding down an OLB position as starter based on part time duty as a rookie. He's a 2nd yr player now & young players have proven they can produce early in their careers. I'm not quite ready to cast Mercilus off after one season. A rookie could be brought in to start opposite of Mercilus or next to Cushing. I honestly believe LB could be the 1st pick & will possibly be the best available if he is capable of starting at olb or ILB.

I'm not assuming Mercilus can't be the guy we need at WOLB. I just don't want to put all our eggs in that one basket. I'd start him at WOLB, then I'd get a pass rushing specialist to back him up, could be Braman, could be a 4th or later pick, could be an UDFA, could be a street FA.

TexansSeminole
03-04-2013, 03:52 PM
I'm not assuming Mercilus can't be the guy we need at WOLB.

I thought Mercilus was pretty effective when he saw snaps as a rookie. I'm more excited about his development than any pass rusher we have drafted since Mario, maybe more than Mario because he is not that expensive.

infantrycak
03-04-2013, 03:55 PM
Jonathan Joseph has made comments several times in regards to Quin's natural leadership ability. Early on he spoke about encouraging Quin to embrace his natural ability to be a leader. He and another Texan, maybe Manning, spoke about it again last year. I would have to look up the quotes, but they are somewhere for sure.

Here is an article after the season was over where JJ stressed the need to retain Quin: http://www.csnhouston.com/football-houston-texans/talk/joseph-gap-between-texans-pats-not-big

I'll find some old quotes today.

Don't spend too much time on it. I take those kinds of quotes as JJo and Manning being leaders and trying to develop Quin into one rather than they already are looking to him for leadership. JJo is the sideline leader (by observation) for the DB's. Locker room I won't pretend to know.

TexansSeminole
03-04-2013, 03:58 PM
Don't spend too much time on it. I take those kinds of quotes as JJo and Manning being leaders and trying to develop Quin into one rather than they already are looking to him for leadership. JJo is the sideline leader (by observation) for the DB's. Locker room I won't pretend to know.

Yea, it gave you the impression that they see potential in him in that role as a young player.

thunderkyss
03-04-2013, 04:10 PM
I thought Mercilus was pretty effective when he saw snaps as a rookie. I'm more excited about his development than any pass rusher we have drafted since Mario, maybe more than Mario because he is not that expensive.

I'm high on Merci

But second year players don't always have monster seasons like Watt did. It's important that we get pressure from the edge. Too important to go with only Mercilus as our potential outside pass rusher.

eriadoc
03-04-2013, 04:10 PM
Neither of them are top 5 at their position.

I think Quin has high, high value.

Just curious as to which safeties people rank above Quin. Personally, I think he ranks very highly, but can't honestly say I know who I'd put ahead of or behind him. So I'm curious what people's thoughts are. I know that Quin in this system is different from some of the other top safeties would be in this system.

silvrhand
03-04-2013, 04:30 PM
Those players lost last season obviously meant more to the team then many believed & we learned that the hard way as those positions struggled & now many feel they are needs. I understand that Winston & Ryans were let go because of salary cap issues, but once again those issues were Smith's doing & are still hurting this team w/ the loss of key players & the potential loss of more.

I hope you are right concerning Quin & how Smith views & values him, but I truly have my doubts in what Smith is capable of. Time will tell...

Injuries hurt us, not the loss of Ryans at the ILB position. As far as Winston he was a better run blocker, but think we broke even on the pass blocking. Longer term we'll be ok without that much tied up into a RT position.

silvrhand
03-04-2013, 04:37 PM
Just curious as to which safeties people rank above Quin. Personally, I think he ranks very highly, but can't honestly say I know who I'd put ahead of or behind him. So I'm curious what people's thoughts are. I know that Quin in this system is different from some of the other top safeties would be in this system.

I'm sorry while Quin is an ok safety he's not like it's top 5 in the league, we just haven't had good safety play in a long time noone remembers what it looks like.

Ed Reed
Troy Polamalu
Weddle
Goldson
Wilson
Byrd

CretorFrigg
03-04-2013, 04:48 PM
I'm sorry while Quin is an ok safety he's not like it's top 5 in the league, we just haven't had good safety play in a long time noone remembers what it looks like.

Ed Reed
Troy Polamalu
Weddle
Goldson
Wilson
Byrd

In addition to that, I'd include Kam Chancellor and Earl Thomas of the Seahawks. They've been playing lights out defense, and they haven't been getting any recognition.

Eric Berry is a great safety, Goldson of the 49ers (don't know his first name).

TexansSeminole
03-04-2013, 07:45 PM
Just curious as to which safeties people rank above Quin. Personally, I think he ranks very highly, but can't honestly say I know who I'd put ahead of or behind him. So I'm curious what people's thoughts are. I know that Quin in this system is different from some of the other top safeties would be in this system.

I would say Eric Berry, Earl Thomas, Dashon Goldson, Eric Weddle, and Troy Polamalu all rank ahead of Quin in terms of value. I don't think Quin is a top 5 safety right now but he one of the best of the rest and still is young, with alot of football left it would seem.

TexCanada
03-04-2013, 07:49 PM
There are a lot of holes on this team if we let these 2 walk. They are replaceable players, but its tough to replace them and fix other areas all in one off-season.

jukhan
03-04-2013, 08:03 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000146877/article/connor-barwin-on-joining-patriots-that-would-be-nice

looks like Barwin wants to test the open market.

thunderkyss
03-04-2013, 08:08 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000146877/article/connor-barwin-on-joining-patriots-that-would-be-nice

looks like Barwin wants to test the open market.

Well.... it was nice while it lasted.



NExxxXXXXTTTT!!!

Dutchrudder
03-04-2013, 08:39 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000146877/article/connor-barwin-on-joining-patriots-that-would-be-nice

looks like Barwin wants to test the open market.

When Barwin was in the draft, the Patriots were very interested in him. It wouldn't be surprising to see them pick him up.

tru80texan
03-04-2013, 08:46 PM
Injuries hurt us, not the loss of Ryans at the ILB position. As far as Winston he was a better run blocker, but think we broke even on the pass blocking. Longer term we'll be ok without that much tied up into a RT position.

Injuries are part of the game & every team deals w/ them. Weak excuse, but so be it. If you think this team wouldn't have been better off w/ Ryans manning the middle w/ whomever else was available as opposed to James manning the middle w/ the fillers...well I question your judgement. Ryans next to Cushing was the better option & Ryans manning the middle when Cushing went down would've been a much better option then what we dealt with. Plain & simple. James was hardly an adequate replacement for Ryans & ultimately losing Ryans made that position weaker & area of need.

Winston was better then Newton & Butler. Once again, denying that fact would call your judgement into question. Newton is still young & could develop into a good player, but he had his issues & was not on Winston's level. When you consider that Winston's salary was in the same range that Briesel & Myers are earning then he wasn't exactly breaking the bank. It seemed he was getting paid a fair amount.

Vinny
03-04-2013, 11:37 PM
Just curious as to which safeties people rank above Quin. Personally, I think he ranks very highly, but can't honestly say I know who I'd put ahead of or behind him. So I'm curious what people's thoughts are. I know that Quin in this system is different from some of the other top safeties would be in this system.I could name about half the league in guys I'd prefer but he's a good player. I also mean that there is nothing wrong with being just "good". He's a slot above JAG (just a guy) and a notch below the top tier players. "Starting caliber" player but isn't a ball hawk, doesn't have elite range or instincts, but does just about everything fairly well. I consider him above average in man coverage (unless covering very speedy wrs). Decent vs the run, but I think took some bad angles last year at times.

Wolf6151
03-05-2013, 01:16 AM
People keep saying that Quin isn't worth keeping and I have to go back and think about how our team was before we had quality safety play.

That's not what people said at all. They're saying, and I agree, that Quin isn't worth franchising. There's a big difference. Quin is good and we'd like him back but he's not elite at his position and not worth top 5 money/franchising.

ObsiWan
03-05-2013, 04:38 AM
That's not what people said at all. They're saying, and I agree, that Quin isn't worth franchising. There's a big difference. Quin is good and we'd like him back but he's not elite at his position and not worth top 5 money/franchising.

Exactly. What would we be giving up if we allocated franchise money to Quin? Perhaps the ability to sign a F/A WR or ILB...? I don't know, I'm just wondering aloud.

And at the end of the day, it's really kinda up to Wade.

deucetx
03-05-2013, 07:31 AM
I could name about half the league in guys I'd prefer but he's a good player. I also mean that there is nothing wrong with being just "good". He's a slot above JAG (just a guy) and a notch below the top tier players. "Starting caliber" player but isn't a ball hawk, doesn't have elite range or instincts, but does just about everything fairly well. I consider him above average in man coverage (unless covering very speedy wrs). Decent vs the run, but I think took some bad angles last year at times.

Perfectly said. I was making a list in response then realized 'Damn...this is longer than I thought'. This right here covers it perfectly. Right now it's more about what he means to the Texans than what he is compared to the other safeties so they should do what they can to bring him back but don't go overboard and put yourself in a hole for future signings/extensions. Not often you hear about safety contracts going the way of absurd though so there's that.

Unfortunately with Byrd and Wilson off the free agent listing that means Quin just moved up more and if his agent knows his business he'll tell Quin to test the market because someone will seek his services at this point.

thunderkyss
03-05-2013, 08:22 AM
Perfectly said. I was making a list in response then realized 'Damn...this is longer than I thought'. This right here covers it perfectly. Right now it's more about what he means to the Texans than what he is compared to the other safeties so they should do what they can to bring him back but don't go overboard and put yourself in a hole for future signings/extensions. Not often you hear about safety contracts going the way of absurd though so there's that.

Unfortunately with Byrd and Wilson off the free agent listing that means Quin just moved up more and if his agent knows his business he'll tell Quin to test the market because someone will seek his services at this point.

I don't think Quin is a top 5 safety. But I don't think he should be compared to guys like Byrd either. They play the position totally different & I think our system demands Quin plays the role he is. Byrd would be more like what we are asking (or should be asking) Manning & our Dime Safety to be doing.

If we're asking Quin to play centerfield ball hawk.... you're right, he is not that guy & never will be. But that's not at all what we're asking him to do.

Ed Reed is an excellent safety, but I don't think he could do what Quin is doing. We wouldn't ask him to, he's a different player all together.

SheTexan
03-05-2013, 12:56 PM
Wow. Look at the classy attitude from shetexan. I will not concede my opinions on him and admit you were right, because you weren't. I would be upset if I we lose Quinn, but that doesn't automatically overturn every good thing RS ha done for this team, which you foolishly overlook due to your warped and biased view. And no, it does not solely lie at his feet. This is a team game, not a blame game. The failure of our team lies on the team, not the GM whose sole responsibility is to sign players who are good for our team, which he has done.

I responded to your PM! Enjoy the board, it's the BEST!!

wolf123
03-05-2013, 01:19 PM
I responded to your PM! Enjoy the board, it's the BEST!!

I wish you well She Texan!!

HOU-TEX
03-05-2013, 01:42 PM
I agree with you for the most part .... I dont think either is worth the franchise number.

Just wonder , what do you think Quin's value is both to the Texans and on the open market.

I think there will be a team that's willing to pay him more than what he's capable of putting on the field. It happens every year, right?

Honestly, I'm not sure what his value is to the Texans. Like Vinny ( I think) said, Quin's an average joe as a player that might have decent coverage skills. It's just the fact that Manning and Quin have been the best Safety's we've had here that is raising Quin's worth to the fans.

I want Quin back, but surely not for the 6.9 tag amount. I might put a 3.5-4.5 value on him. What do you think?

badboy
03-05-2013, 02:10 PM
I guess the question is can we get starters for safety, OLB and WR2 in first four selections, if needed? You know by my post combine mock that I believe we can.

Dutchrudder
03-05-2013, 02:15 PM
I guess the question is can we get starters for safety, OLB and WR2 in first four selections, if needed? You know by my post combine mock that I believe we can.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see Quin, Casey and/or Barwin test free agency only to come back to the Texans. Chris Myers did this last year and got a good deal from us while threatening to go to the Titans. It happens every year, and sometimes the Texans are the team hosting the guy that's trying to get more money from his old team.

I'm really glad that the NFL does free agency well before the draft, unlike the NBA. I think it makes a lot of sense, because it's much easier to fill holes through the draft than trying your luck in free agency.

TexansSeminole
03-05-2013, 02:22 PM
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see Quin, Casey and/or Barwin test free agency only to come back to the Texans. Chris Myers did this last year and got a good deal from us while threatening to go to the Titans. It happens every year, and sometimes the Texans are the team hosting the guy that's trying to get more money from his old team.

I'm really glad that the NFL does free agency well before the draft, unlike the NBA. I think it makes a lot of sense, because it's much easier to fill holes through the draft than trying your luck in free agency.

I hope we can retain at least Quin and Casey. Getting quality safety play is not easy and is often what separates good from great defenses, so losing Quin would be a big loss to the team and would create perhaps the team's largest void.

Dutchrudder
03-05-2013, 02:37 PM
I hope we can retain at least Quin and Casey. Getting quality safety play is not easy and is often what separates good from great defenses, so losing Quin would be a big loss to the team and would create perhaps the team's largest void.

I think we will retain Quin, as I don't think he has much value around the league. He's not exactly a plug-and-play safety that fits all schemes. I think his value will be limited and his market small, but it only takes 1 team to bid up the price against us. I'm hoping we get him for about 3 million a year at most. He's a good player, but not great, and I can't see him making more money than Manning.

Casey I think deserves the minimum. He's easily replaceable through the draft if some other team thinks he's worth anything more than that. I don't really see him finding a new home as a TE, and certainly not as a FB. We really need a TE that can block well, so I would be happy to replace Casey with Delanie Walker if he's not too expensive. We can find a UDFA fullback if need be.

Barwin will be tricky. He had one good season and one bad season, so I don't know what his market value will be. I suspect he will get between 3-5 million a year with low guaranteed money. He's still young and can develop more, so I could see a rebuilding team making a bid for him that we can't afford to match.

badboy
03-05-2013, 03:00 PM
As Barwin has allegedly offered to sign a one year deal to show he can do better than '12, I wonder why Texans have not moved on that?

thunderkyss
03-05-2013, 03:30 PM
I think we will retain Quin, as I don't think he has much value around the league. He's not exactly a plug-and-play safety that fits all schemes.

If teams can find a use for Bernard Pollard, they'll be able to use Glover Quin. That's pretty much what he is. A better Pollard.

thunderkyss
03-05-2013, 03:36 PM
As Barwin has allegedly offered to sign a one year deal to show he can do better than '12, I wonder why Texans have not moved on that?

I'm sure they have.

He didn't say he'll sign any one year deal. I'm sure it would have to be right before he takes it.

If I'm Rick Smith, I'm using that as my leverage to get him to sign before March 12th. A one year deal is on the table, until March 12th. Then it's gone. He can sign it & try to earn a better contract in the future, either with our team or another.

After March 12th, he'll have to try to convince another team to give him a one year deal if he can't find one to offer him the big time pass rusher contract.

I want him to stay, but for a very reasonable Texans friendly deal, or a slightly rich one year deal. Other than that..... he's welcome to do what's best for him.

Dutchrudder
03-05-2013, 04:03 PM
If teams can find a use for Bernard Pollard, they'll be able to use Glover Quin. That's pretty much what he is. A better Pollard.

Sure, and guess how much money Pollard got from the Ravens. 4 years 10.25 million, for an average of $2,562,500 a year.

Is Quin worth considerably more than that around the league? I don't think so, which is why I think 3-4 million a year for him is a decent number. I seriously doubt we are going to see the Bengals or some other crap team swoop in and offer him something crazy like 4 years 25-30 million.

silvrhand
03-05-2013, 04:09 PM
Injuries are part of the game & every team deals w/ them. Weak excuse, but so be it. If you think this team wouldn't have been better off w/ Ryans manning the middle w/ whomever else was available as opposed to James manning the middle w/ the fillers...well I question your judgement. Ryans next to Cushing was the better option & Ryans manning the middle when Cushing went down would've been a much better option then what we dealt with. Plain & simple. James was hardly an adequate replacement for Ryans & ultimately losing Ryans made that position weaker & area of need.

Winston was better then Newton & Butler. Once again, denying that fact would call your judgement into question. Newton is still young & could develop into a good player, but he had his issues & was not on Winston's level. When you consider that Winston's salary was in the same range that Briesel & Myers are earning then he wasn't exactly breaking the bank. It seemed he was getting paid a fair amount.

You act like there was an option for keeping everyone, you make judgements on what you've seen and what you think you can lose. The OL and LB cores were one of the strenghts of the team so if you had to lose something you could lose a bit there and then pick up.

Did I hate to lose Ryans, absolutely he was my favorite Texan, but I understood that his what 6.6 or so million dollary contract was a lot for us to cover, along with another 5.5 or so from Eric Winston. I personally would have liked to keep both but the numbers just didn't work.

Simply denying the fact we had salary cap issues, makes me call your judgement into question, it's not fantasy land we can't have it all. We are making tough decisions and it just didn't quite work out for us, will it this year? I dunno we still have Matt to get sorted out :)

tru80texan
03-05-2013, 04:41 PM
Those players lost last season obviously meant more to the team then many believed & we learned that the hard way as those positions struggled & now many feel they are needs. I understand that Winston & Ryans were let go because of salary cap issues, but once again those issues were Smith's doing & are still hurting this team w/ the loss of key players & the potential loss of more.

I hope you are right concerning Quin & how Smith views & values him, but I truly have my doubts in what Smith is capable of. Time will tell...

I disagree on the production going downhill concerning Ryans. His production decline early in 2011 was because he was still recovering IMO. His production picked towards the end of the season & that was acknowledged by Kubiak as well as others. Assuming Ryans production wasn't going to be effected to some degree 1 year removed from an Achilles injury in pure foolishness IMO. Holding that against him is hardly fair or an accurate judgement of Ryans abilities. Ryans rebounded very well this season & looked like his old self & it seems the new regime in Philly feel Ryans is very much capable of playing in the 3-4. I tend to believe them. The myth that Ryans wasn't suited for the 3-4 was generated by most of the same folks that foolishly assumed that James could easily replace him. I think they were obviously wrong on James as a replacement & will ultimately be wrong on what Ryans is capable of in a 3-4 scheme. Ryans was making too much for only being a 2 down LB, but that's what happens when a player starts next to the likes of Cushing in Wade's scheme. The better player stays on the field, but Ryans is still very good in his own right & claiming his production is down seems to be completely false considering his production just this past season. The numbers speak for themselves.

As far as Winston, his production may have been slipping some as a Texan but he too performed well for is new team as it seems the Texans misjudged the talent level of Butler & Newton. I admit I thought Butler could possibly fill the void, but that didn't happen & I was wrong just as they were. Once again the salary cap is a beast that was created by Smith & he has yet to tame it & it is costing the Texans quality players in the process.

I do agree that Winston & Ryans may have needed to go because of salary cap numbers, but not because of their production. They are both still quality players that are better then what we currently have at their positions & money was the reason they are no longer here & that is easily proven w/ the production this past season.

Injuries hurt us, not the loss of Ryans at the ILB position. As far as Winston he was a better run blocker, but think we broke even on the pass blocking. Longer term we'll be ok without that much tied up into a RT position.

You act like there was an option for keeping everyone, you make judgements on what you've seen and what you think you can lose. The OL and LB cores were one of the strenghts of the team so if you had to lose something you could lose a bit there and then pick up.

Did I hate to lose Ryans, absolutely he was my favorite Texan, but I understood that his what 6.6 or so million dollary contract was a lot for us to cover, along with another 5.5 or so from Eric Winston. I personally would have liked to keep both but the numbers just didn't work.

Simply denying the fact we had salary cap issues, makes me call your judgement into question, it's not fantasy land we can't have it all. We are making tough decisions and it just didn't quite work out for us, will it this year? I dunno we still have Matt to get sorted out :)

Read my past posts carefully & you will see I am well aware of the fact that the salary cap was an issue & the reason why I felt Winston & Ryans were moved. I'm not in denial about that fact despite you overlooking what I've have stated. You can also see that I laid that blame squarely at the feet of Rick Smith because he created the cap nightmare & continues to lose quality players in the process. I understand you can't keep them all, but we are having issues just keeping a few to be frank. Im not too impressed w/ the job he has done & depleting the o-line & LB position was far from a smart move. Im not sure how you considered those positions a strength at once when outside of the starters there was obviously not much depth to step in & take over for the players lost. That's not much of a strength IMO.

My reply to you stemmed from what seemed to be your denial that Smith's cap management, or mismanagement, was what ultimately lead to the Texans woes & not just injuries as you implied. I too am not sure it will work out this season as it seems we are possibly going to lose yet some more starters & once again it's because of salary cap woes that surely were not helped w/ Smith's decision to re-sign Schaub who just may no be the answer but a problem. Time will tell...

thunderkyss
03-05-2013, 06:29 PM
Sure, and guess how much money Pollard got from the Ravens. 4 years 10.25 million, for an average of $2,562,500 a year.

Is Quin worth considerably more than that around the league? I don't think so, which is why I think 3-4 million a year for him is a decent number. I seriously doubt we are going to see the Bengals or some other crap team swoop in and offer him something crazy like 4 years 25-30 million.

Hey... I don't want to franchise him either, I'm expecting the same $3-4M/yr you are. $5M would be a stretch.....

However, if I'm the F.O. & I'm thinking we've got a window here, I don't think I would be able to easily replace him.

I said in another thread I'd be willing to acquire a safety in the first if the opportunity arises. I'm mainly looking at Manning & 2014.... basically the same situation. I don't think he's worth $5M/yr anymore than Quin is.

Goldensilence
03-05-2013, 06:47 PM
I could name about half the league in guys I'd prefer but he's a good player. I also mean that there is nothing wrong with being just "good". He's a slot above JAG (just a guy) and a notch below the top tier players. "Starting caliber" player but isn't a ball hawk, doesn't have elite range or instincts, but does just about everything fairly well. I consider him above average in man coverage (unless covering very speedy wrs). Decent vs the run, but I think took some bad angles last year at times.

Pretty accurate assessment Vinny. I would say Quinn doesn't really excel at one certain thing, but he's solid all around and fits well with what Wade does. Very versatile with his background at CB the first two years in the league.

If teams can find a use for Bernard Pollard, they'll be able to use Glover Quin. That's pretty much what he is. A better Pollard.

Pollard lack true range as a safety, but makes up for it being a more classic in the box safety and fits well into that role only. Reminds me a lot of Roy Williams from OU that played for the Cowboys.

I don't think Quinn is going to have a high FA market value, he's not an elite FS and doesn't hit hard enough to be a in the box safety like Pollard.

My biggest fear with losing Quinn is that the team won't really address the position in the draft or via FA. Looking past Quinn we've got Demps and Keo. They look bad enough when rotated into the defense, I almost puke at the though of either starting.

Barwin is likely gone. I wouldn't be surprised to see him picked up by Pats, they seemed high on him when we drafted him.

I did like what I saw from Merciless when he got reps later in the season, full-time starter? Still not too sure.

thunderkyss
03-05-2013, 06:52 PM
When you consider that Winston's salary was in the same range that Briesel & Myers are earning then he wasn't exactly breaking the bank. It seemed he was getting paid a fair amount.

If I remember right, we were paying Winston $5M/yr. I didn't think he was worth it. I don't think he is worth it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Chiefs manage to acquire Joekel, & replace Winston.

I don't understand how we're going to say Winston played well in KC, because Jamaal Charles (from Port Arthur, Texas) ran for 85 more yards than Arian did. Or that the Chiefs gave up 40 sacks & we gave up 28. & that's with Newton (a first time starter) playing next to a rookie. But he's not in Winston's class? I admit I didn't watch Winston in KC, but I know how he played.

Winston was what? A 6th year player & most likely led the team in false starts. He's a fine pass protecter when going against your powerful strongside DEs (like a Mario Williams) but against a quicker, Freeny type, or a quick/explosive guy like Clay Matthews, he's like a wet paper sack. On the playside of a run..... I don't know there's a better tackle save maybe DBrown76. On the backside, lots of room for improvement. He didn't flat out suck.. but nowhere near where he should be.

We had/have cap issues, because we paid players more than we should have. We should have parted ways with Winston after 2010. We should not have franchised Dunta. Antonio Smith, imo, only started earning his money since Wade got here. Wade Smith... great first season, but the last couple... way over paid. & yeah.... $16M+ or whatever we paid Mario in 2011. Not very bright.

tru80texan
03-05-2013, 08:44 PM
If I remember right, we were paying Winston $5M/yr. I didn't think he was worth it. I don't think he is worth it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Chiefs manage to acquire Joekel, & replace Winston.

I don't understand how we're going to say Winston played well in KC, because Jamaal Charles (from Port Arthur, Texas) ran for 85 more yards than Arian did. Or that the Chiefs gave up 40 sacks & we gave up 28. & that's with Newton (a first time starter) playing next to a rookie. But he's not in Winston's class? I admit I didn't watch Winston in KC, but I know how he played.

Winston was what? A 6th year player & most likely led the team in false starts. He's a fine pass protecter when going against your powerful strongside DEs (like a Mario Williams) but against a quicker, Freeny type, or a quick/explosive guy like Clay Matthews, he's like a wet paper sack. On the playside of a run..... I don't know there's a better tackle save maybe DBrown76. On the backside, lots of room for improvement. He didn't flat out suck.. but nowhere near where he should be.

We had/have cap issues, because we paid players more than we should have. We should have parted ways with Winston after 2010. We should not have franchised Dunta. Antonio Smith, imo, only started earning his money since Wade got here. Wade Smith... great first season, but the last couple... way over paid. & yeah.... $16M+ or whatever we paid Mario in 2011. Not very bright.

If I recall correctly Winston was making roughly $5M, which is what was used to sign Myers once Winston was cut.

As far as how Winston performed this past season, I havent read anything that said he didn't play well this season. You mention Charles' accomplishments which says a lot when you consider they had slim to no passing attack w/ a mediocre qb & yet Charles & the o-line still had success. You mention the sack total, but that is hardly a true reflection of how well Winston performed on an individual level. That total sack number could easily be because of the other o-lineman or poor qb play as most of us know since Carr was one of the biggest culprits in taking sacks that he didn't need to take. Regardless, Winston may have not been one of the best, but he wasn't necessarily being paid like one either. As it stands, most could easily say Winston is the better option compared to Newton. That could change in the future.

Couldn't agree more on some of Smith's questionable moves & to be honest he isn't doing much this offseason to change my mind. I personally will be highly upset if this team allows a quality player such as Quin walk away & Walter remains. Walter's $3.5M could easily offset what Quin could end up making & Quin has quite a bit more to offer this team in terms of ability & youth IMO. Keeping an overpaid underperforming wr while letting youth & potential walk away would show Smith's incompetence yet again IMO. We will see...

steelbtexan
03-05-2013, 09:55 PM
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see Quin, Casey and/or Barwin test free agency only to come back to the Texans. Chris Myers did this last year and got a good deal from us while threatening to go to the Titans. It happens every year, and sometimes the Texans are the team hosting the guy that's trying to get more money from his old team.

I'm really glad that the NFL does free agency well before the draft, unlike the NBA. I think it makes a lot of sense, because it's much easier to fill holes through the draft than trying your luck in free agency.

If FA was after the draft you would know what holes were on your team and those holes would be filled in FA. The market for FA's would be different too.

However, if FA were done last GM's would be under more pressure and I would hate to think about how Rick would respond under the gun.

mussop
03-05-2013, 10:58 PM
The more I look at FA and the draft the more I think Quin will be back. Lots of good options will drive down the market.

Barwin on the other hand probably is gone.

tru80texan
03-06-2013, 12:21 AM
The more I look at FA and the draft the more I think Quin will be back. Lots of good options will drive down the market.

Barwin on the other hand probably is gone.

I'm just curious as to which players you are referring to? Here's a link to FA's available at Safety, as well as other positions, & outside of Goldson, Delmas, Phillips, Landry, & Bell I don't see nothing that a team could acquire that is looking towards the future instead of 2-3 yr gap filler w/ old timers such as Woodson, Reed, & Barber. If a team is looking for potential & youth then I believe Quin is high on the list. I believe he is better then Delmas, Bell, & maybe even w/ Phillips. Goldson & Landry may be the better option, but Landry has had health issues. With all that being said, Quin seems to be a good option towards the top of th lust, imo, considering his youth & potential.

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/42077/309/2013-nfl-free-agents

thunderkyss
03-06-2013, 07:48 AM
As it stands, most could easily say Winston is the better option compared to Newton. That could change in the future.


We'll agree to disagree on Winston. Our run game & passing game is just as good as it was with Winston. We had a three game skid at the end of the season & "everybody" is still emotional over that. Most don't remember we had multiple 3 game skids in previous seasons.

Factor in that Newton is younger with room to grow (improve), not making starter money..... I'd pick Newton in a heartbeat. I was very impressed with him before he got hurt, which just happens to coincide with when the offense started to struggle.


Couldn't agree more on some of Smith's questionable moves & to be honest he isn't doing much this offseason to change my mind. I personally will be highly upset if this team allows a quality player such as Quin walk away & Walter remains. Walter's $3.5M could easily offset what Quin could end up making & Quin has quite a bit more to offer this team in terms of ability & youth IMO. Keeping an overpaid underperforming wr while letting youth & potential walk away would show Smith's incompetence yet again IMO. We will see...

I'd be upset if two years from now we "have to" overpay Manning (again) because we don't have a good safety. This year, he should be primed for restructuring to lower his cap number, or an outright paycut (which I don't think they would do).

Imagine 2015 we're back to pre-Quin/Manning safety play.

deucetx
03-06-2013, 08:34 AM
We'll agree to disagree on Winston. Our run game & passing game is just as good as it was with Winston. We had a three game skid at the end of the season & "everybody" is still emotional over that. Most don't remember we had multiple 3 game skids in previous seasons.

Factor in that Newton is younger with room to grow (improve), not making starter money..... I'd pick Newton in a heartbeat. I was very impressed with him before he got hurt, which just happens to coincide with when the offense started to struggle.


My man, you are putting way too much in just total yards. Charles did that production on 66 less carries and 252 less snaps than Arian with a 5.3 yards per carry average (Arian 4.1). Meanwhile they had the same average after contact of 2.2. That means Charles got more room from his front line before even being touched to get that average per carry. Also add that Foster averaged 3.7 running at Newton. Charles averaged 5.8 running at Winston. Not even close. For instance PFF grades has Winston 6th amongst RT's in run blocking. Don't even ask where Newton is lol.

As for Newton's injury coinciding with the offense that would be a bit off. He got injured in the Lions game in Week 12 (only had 10 plays yet our offense was fine w/o him) so missed the Titans and Patriots game. He was there for the offensive downturn. His absence meant little in that regards since Ryan Harris was no worse than being the same player. So Newton was there for the field goal-a-thon against the Colts. The no mas touchdowns against the Vikings, etc.

Honestly, the alternating at RT tells the story. Before the season on August 27th as stated on houstontexans.com: Coach Gary Kubiak said there will not be a time-share between the two players, meaning the job is Newton’s and Newton’s alone. That was speaking of Butler and Newton after big Newt won the job. As the season went on though and Newton had his struggles we saw time shared at that spot with Harris (Newton 774 plays; Harris 416). Good indicator he was underperforming to the level Kubes and Dennison sought.

Hopefully, the guy improves and grows. But just like his youth means it's a possibility it also means he could be same as previous and not improve at all. It's all one giant crapshoot so all we can do is hope for the best there.

tru80texan
03-06-2013, 10:38 AM
We'll agree to disagree on Winston. Our run game & passing game is just as good as it was with Winston. We had a three game skid at the end of the season & "everybody" is still emotional over that. Most don't remember we had multiple 3 game skids in previous seasons.

Factor in that Newton is younger with room to grow (improve), not making starter money..... I'd pick Newton in a heartbeat. I was very impressed with him before he got hurt, which just happens to coincide with when the offense started to struggle.



I'd be upset if two years from now we "have to" overpay Manning (again) because we don't have a good safety. This year, he should be primed for restructuring to lower his cap number, or an outright paycut (which I don't think they would do).

Imagine 2015 we're back to pre-Quin/Manning safety play.

Im having a hard time believing you actually watched a game this past season if you can say that w/ a straight face. The run game was hardly the same as the Texans seemed reluctant to run to the right & when they did it normally didn't result in results that we were accustomed to in the past. The right side run blocking didn't pick up until the end of the season & even then when important yards were needed they normally ran it to the left.

The pass blocking wasn't nearly as efficient either. Im almost positive that I've seen you use the right side & specifically Newton as an excuse to defend Schaub's poor play. I don't recall Winston being used a Schaub's scapegoat in the past so how was the pass blocking just as good if you feel the need to blame the RT for the qb's shortcomings...doesn't quite add up. Is it the RT the problem or not or is it whatever fits the occasion? I believe it's a combination of poor qb & RT play to be honest, but Newton is young & has time to get better. I'm not sure the same can be said about the qb, but that's for another thread. Either way, we will agree to disagree because Newton is not on Winston's level just yet.

thunderkyss
03-06-2013, 11:40 AM
The pass blocking wasn't nearly as efficient either. Im almost positive that I've seen you use the right side & specifically Newton as an excuse to defend Schaub's poor play.


This is true. After the injury, I was not so big on Newton. He gave up too much ground too early..... before contact & I believe was the primary reason Schaub felt rushed.


I don't recall Winston being used a Schaub's scapegoat in the past so how was the pass blocking just as good if you feel the need to blame the RT for the qb's shortcomings...doesn't quite add up. Is it the RT the problem or not or is it whatever fits the occasion? I believe it's a combination of poor qb & RT play to be honest, but Newton is young & has time to get better. I'm not sure the same can be said about the qb, but that's for another thread. Either way, we will agree to disagree because Newton is not on Winston's level just yet.

I've complained about Winston's pass blocking, backside run play, & penalties for quite sometime.