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pittbull
06-17-2005, 05:02 PM
Name this QB in the comparison to Carr, as far as stats go!!!

Player "X" David Carr
ATT (474) (466)
Comp (288) (285)
PCT. (60.8) (61.2)
Yards (3,692) (3,531)
AVG. (7.79) (7.58)
TD "28" (16)
INT (14) (14)
Long (50yrd) (69yrd)
Rating (92.6) (83.5)
Sacks (26) (49)


Player "X" happens to be two-time Super Bowl QB Tom Brady. The gist of this email is to remind those haters out there, this is still a young franchise, with a more than capable QB, if given the right tools around him. Not many are going to be Dan Marino or Peyton Manning and put up HUGE numbers every year, but given the right talent around them, and an offensive line that protects, there are some that could be Joe Montana or Troy Aikman-like!(Look at Big-Ben!!!) Carr is well on his way, as long as the protection is there, our receiving corp develops, and a healthy backfield takes pressure off of long 3rd down attempts. He has shown the strong arm, guts, and has the intelligence to know what to do when given time. With all that said, look for Davie Franchise to have a breakout year, and get mentioned for Pro Bowl honors. Possibly attending with Johnson, Robinson, and Peek!

Panther5407
06-17-2005, 05:08 PM
Those are some nice stats. Kinda hard to argue with that. Now imagine what Carr could do if his sack number was closer to Brady.

Nawzer
06-17-2005, 05:15 PM
I've always backed David Carr. I never thought he was the main reason for our problems on offense. I think if he can get decent protection and find a dependable no.2 threat this season, his numbers and the team will be great.

Texans Pride
06-17-2005, 05:22 PM
Pitt,

Nice post,

Hey, unless I am reading your stats wrong, you have David's TD/INT ratio incorrect. Carr had 16 TD's with 14 INT's. The way I am reading it, you have both at 16.

pittbull
06-17-2005, 05:31 PM
Thanks TP, your right! Carr acutally had 14 INT's, so I might have hurt the thread a bit....lol But when you think of Carr being sacked so often and throwing under so much pressure, it's a wonder the TD-INT stat wasn't the other way around or worse!!! :crying:

Texans Pride
06-17-2005, 05:35 PM
But when you think of Carr being sacked so often and throwing under so much pressure, it's a wonder the TD-INT stat wasn't the other way around or worse!!! :crying:


You got that right brother. . . you got that right!

infantrycak
06-17-2005, 06:00 PM
It's fixed for you now.

Double Barrel
06-17-2005, 06:07 PM
Excellent post, pittbull. :thumbup

I shall use these numbers in my continuing effort to education those haters out there.

I've never understood the point of slamming DC, considering the extremely tough position he was put in from the beginning. I feel certain that whatever veteran QB we could have picked up in the first year would have suffered the same fate of 76 sacks.

TexansNeedRBin05
06-17-2005, 06:15 PM
Carr is awesome! You put him on say the Ravens they are a desnity! :highfive:

CoachJim
06-17-2005, 06:49 PM
Carr is awesome! You put him on say the Ravens they are a desnity! :highfive:

I believe that'd be a dYnasty :goodnight

disaacks3
06-17-2005, 07:01 PM
Those are some nice stats. Kinda hard to argue with that. Now imagine what Carr could do if his sack number was closer to Brady.Imagine what our win total would be like if his TD total was closer as well! ..maybe we can kidnap an O-Line somewhere..

ArlingtonTexan
06-17-2005, 08:07 PM
Those numbers don't mean much of anything. If you put Aaron brooks, Matt Hasslebeck's, and Jake Plummer's raw numbers up they will probably look better than Tom Brady's over the last three or four years.

I am one of those who is called a Carr hater, because I think carr is a starting NFL quality QB in the range of Brooks or Plummer. Carr still does not make consistent enough good decisions and is below average in pocket awareness, but is able to off set that with an above average arm, tough and better than expected running ability, and good leadreship skills. I just don't think he is elite and consistent. Like the guys mention above Carr can put up probowl type seasons, but will not do it year in, year out.

I taking the bait for this :fishing: trip, and already know that Carr needs a better OL, a real 2nd Wr and more experience according to the normal rebuttals when these discussion goes on.

Joe Texan
06-17-2005, 08:18 PM
He has the tools to do the job, He needs protection to give them time to get open, We were better at the run last year and I believe that was because you have to start something before you can learn it. We went into a completely new line scheme with the zone blocking. I believe we will do alot better this year and David should have some time to see his recievers.
I see a break out year coming and I will be there front and center.

Davis37
06-17-2005, 08:48 PM
When Carr has time he can be amazing. Look back that the Minnesota game last year. Late in the game when Carr actually had time to go through his progressions, he picked the def apart. Im not saying that Carr is the next Montana, but I think if we ever fix the OL and get him a good #2 WR he could become the probowl QB everybody wants.

TexansTrueFan
06-17-2005, 09:12 PM
I have some odd feeling carr will have more time this year, even though we have the same O-Line as last year.

Davis37
06-18-2005, 12:07 AM
If the running game is as good as it was at the end of the year last year, then he should have a much better year. If the def has to key in on the running game, then it will open up alot of things for Carr and the WR's. Play action should buy Carr alot of time also.

Big B Texan Fan
06-18-2005, 03:23 AM
I like Carr. I find myself defending him alot these days though. And I'm having to with people who know their football. He does lack some tools like pocket presence but Marino lacked escapability. I had an argument with a guy for at least a half hour cuz he thought he was a sissy cuz he wore his wedding ring on the field and because he does'nt cuss. I thought my ears were gonna start bleeding. I'd would like to see the Texans get a back-up next year that will get his butt scared though. That is unless he goes for 4000+ with 24+ TD's >10 Int's and 20-24 sax with 'bout 200-250 yrd rushing (scrambling). Alot of you guys might be thinking...whoa, that's TOO many yards rushing but with our O-Line....C'mon. Besides, he's got the ability. He might as well use it. As long as he can remember to slide.

Davis37
06-18-2005, 05:57 AM
Its hard to have pocket presence when there isnt a pocket...

bigtex77
06-18-2005, 08:57 AM
Its hard to have pocket presence when there isnt a pocket...

Very true!!

infantrycak
06-18-2005, 09:02 AM
Its hard to have pocket presence when there isnt a pocket...

Very true, but there are times when he could learn to slide one or two steps to assist the OL instead of going into full flight mode. Lord knows he has reason to run screaming much of the time but he could improve in this area.

ArlingtonTexan
06-18-2005, 09:16 AM
Its hard to have pocket presence when there isnt a pocket...

No really..the two are more integrated than that. If a Qb drops to far, does not drop far enough, runs to the side, runs too quickly, or does not release the ball when he is supposed then it looks like the OL is not givng him time when the QB is making the mistake.

IM0, the combination of OL's below average pass protection and Carr's average at best pocket presence is the combination that makes the sack total so poor. QBs such Manning and Brady who are above average in thier pocket awareness make their average to slightly above average OLs look a heck of a lot better than they really are.

aj.
06-18-2005, 09:18 AM
As far as lack of pocket, it's not all on the o-line. Some QBs, Brady in particular, are very adept at creating space for themselves on mid to deep drops by taking short, quick, jab and shuffle steps to avoid the rush. Carr's first escape/avoidance step is almost always a long stride which severely limits his ability to maneuver through smaller gaps in the rush.

edit: ok, sorry for the redundant post. I stepped away while in the middle of composing this response and in the meantime a couple of others said what needed to be said.

TheTim5125
06-18-2005, 09:40 AM
nice... thats pretty interesting... good find

GoBrowns
06-18-2005, 10:12 AM
Not only is Carr an improving young quarterback, he has wit. On this Web site, Carr said of his plans for the time off before training camp: ďI have to go base jumping and sky diving, surfing and riding some motorcycles and then Iíll be ready for training camp,Ē Carr said, barely cracking a smile.
Trust me, Browns fans appreciated the jab more than Kellen Wnslow I & II.

pittbull
06-18-2005, 10:37 AM
The difference between Carr and the players that you named Arlington, none of them have ever shown the heart Carr does. All that you mention have been content to pick up a pay check and play for teams and cities that do the same. You can best believe here in H-Town, that will not happen. We Want A CHAMPIONSHIP, A CHAMPIONSHIP QB, AN OWNER THAT WANTS ONE, AND FANS THAT SUPPORT! Carr has the fire and it shows on Sunday's, problem is, we're still trying to retool an expansion franchise into players that all share the same thoughts of winning. The O-line is slowly getting there, but needs another "nasty" fire guy, and once that happens.......lookout! Don't look at guys that were nothing in college and just so happened to make it to the leauge like Brooks and Hasselbeck. Carr has been a leader and winner no matter where he went. As for Plummer, bad timing. If he played on a better Bronco team, he wins. He's got guts, but isn't always the smartest player either!

pittbull
06-18-2005, 10:52 AM
As for pocket presence, does anyone know what it is like facing a front 7, averaging 275lbs, running a sub 4.8, and breathinng down your neck. NO! If you did, you would be palying or coaching in the NFL. What you see, is not always what you get. Many aspects of the game, affect how a QB or any player for that matter continue play! I have close friends that have played at the highest level, along with three family members, and they will all tell you the same about fans on sites! "Those who complain about players and their production the most, usually know the least about the game" Study what the entire offense is doing, not just one player. Did we have a "true" #2 receiver that was capable of being another outlet for Carr.......NO! Was Dominic helathy all year for the team to gel...........No! Did we have a defense that placed us in bad field position often.......yes! Many aspects affect how plays are called, schemes, and how each player is then affected. Take Brady, Manning, Big-Ben, whatever QB that had a good year, and he would not do much better. All the sliding in the pocket in the world was not going to help Carr escape the rush that was coming at him last year. Remember, the more he slides in the pocket, the throwing lanes are decreased in number, and then limits him to one side of the field, rather than staying in the pocket and viewing the entire field. Problem........No lanes to see in when they are being colapsed! Also, the less chance of him being accurate when throwing against his body. Look at howlong Brady and Manning stay in the pocket.....it can seems like decades. Carr's not Vick. Even Farve has a worst percentage outside the pocket, than in! :goodnight

aj.
06-18-2005, 12:32 PM
As for pocket presence, does anyone know what it is like facing a front 7, averaging 275lbs, running a sub 4.8, and breathinng down your neck. NO! If you did, you would be palying or coaching in the NFL. ...

... I have close friends that have played at the highest level, along with three family members, and they will all tell you the same about fans on sites! "Those who complain about players and their production the most, usually know the least about the game"

Ok, we're all stupid.

Yay Texans! You're the best! Carr is a Hall of Famer. 16-0 baby!

Is that better?

Why reject legitmate and constructive criticism from people who have watched football closely for dozens of years? Granted most of us have only played through high school or a few years of college ball, but to say that fans can't have an educated opinion about the game just because they haven't played at the highest level is ridiculous. Some of us have been watching football closely since the 60's and I think it's a bit presumptuous to basically tell fans they don't know what they are talking about unless they have played or coached.

ArlingtonTexan
06-18-2005, 12:37 PM
The difference between Carr and the players that you named Arlington, none of them have ever shown the heart Carr does. All that you mention have been content to pick up a pay check and play for teams and cities that do the same. You can best believe here in H-Town, that will not happen. We Want A CHAMPIONSHIP, A CHAMPIONSHIP QB, AN OWNER THAT WANTS ONE, AND FANS THAT SUPPORT! Carr has the fire and it shows on Sunday's, problem is, we're still trying to retool an expansion franchise into players that all share the same thoughts of winning. The O-line is slowly getting there, but needs another "nasty" fire guy, and once that happens.......lookout! Don't look at guys that were nothing in college and just so happened to make it to the leauge like Brooks and Hasselbeck. Carr has been a leader and winner no matter where he went. As for Plummer, bad timing. If he played on a better Bronco team, he wins. He's got guts, but isn't always the smartest player either!

Honestly, I have real no response to this because it is emotional homerism, but I as I am want to do, I will try anyway.

I don't know, but overcoming an average college career to become an above average pro-starter shows a lot of moxie to me. Seriously, there are a ton of players who player there tails off in the NFL whose primary motivation is money. I never have a good handle on who has "heart of a champion" or plays hard because of "money and fame" (see T. Owens, which one for him? looks the same to me)

FWIW, Carr reminds most of Plummer than anyone else in the league. I have stated this repeatedly for about a year now on various boards.

Actually, much of the objective opinion, that I present on this board and other has been forged by my brother-in-law who played in the NFL for 13 years. Especially, the stuff about who is motivated what and who is playing hard. Basically, a ton of the "heart and guts" are frauds and show boats like Sanders and Irwin are often the hardest working people on the field.

Grid
06-18-2005, 12:41 PM
... I have close friends that have played at the highest level, along with three family members, and they will all tell you the same about fans on sites! "Those who complain about players and their production the most, usually know the least about the game"

of course thats what they will say. Thats what I would say too if I was a player getting shredded on a message board.

How many of those players actually spend enough time on a message board to get to know the posters and actually see how much knowledge they have?

100 bucks says that 99.9999999999% of them.. if they even looked at a message board before.. only looked at it long enough to read the negative posts by the 15 year old *****s.. and based their entire opinion on that.

I agree with aj. Some people have been following the game for years.. they may not understand every single nuance of the game from the inside out.. but they understand enough to be able to give an educated opinion on a players production, and what issues they are having.

Big B Texan Fan
06-18-2005, 12:55 PM
of course thats what they will say. Thats what I would say too if I was a player getting shredded on a message board.

How many of those players actually spend enough time on a message board to get to know the posters and actually see how much knowledge they have?

100 bucks says that 99.9999999999% of them.. if they even looked at a message board before.. only looked at it long enough to read the negative posts by the 15 year old *****s.. and based their entire opinion on that.

I agree with aj. Some people have been following the game for years.. they may not understand every single nuance of the game from the inside out.. but they understand enough to be able to give an educated opinion on a players production, and what issues they are having.
I'm with you guys, fans (who care) nowadays' have a zillion more resources about the game and all of it's nuances from the field to the front office than let's say 15 years ago. With the sport growing, the internet, all the sports channels, Fantasy Football, Video games, etc..... we all know more about the sport now more than ever. And I'm sure most of played @ least in high school so we have some idea what they go through.
Plz don't go saying that I said WE KNOW what they go through, just that some of us have some idea (if not more) of what they go through.

Vinny
06-18-2005, 12:55 PM
I'll try to stay out of this one but I think we have a few really, really astute minds around here when it comes to breaking down NFL stuff objectively. Over the years (since the franchise birth), aj and Arlington Texan are consistently the most spot-on and insightful eyes that choose to participate around here. Being rah-rah about Carr is great and all, but he has flaws in his game. I think it is a good thing that we can talk about his game at least semi-objectively. Saying that we don't grasp the game because we were never players is kinda goofy.

ArlingtonTexan
06-18-2005, 01:10 PM
Saying that we don't grasp the game because we were never players is kinda goofy.

This idea can be taken to a logic extreme such as, "You can't say anything bad a about that fast food manager who just screwed up that order. You only worked at Wendy's a couple of summers when you were in high school and college, and have no understanding of what it is like to have 3 sixteen year olds call out, a supply truck sitting at the back door and bus full of screaming eight year olds tearing up the dining room."

pittbull
06-18-2005, 05:25 PM
My reply was not to tear down anyone who really watches the game, have played the game, and understands the breakdown of the game. It was merely a point, where those who watch games through their favorite teams colored blinders, don't look past wins and losses. Believe me, I know there are many "knowledable fans on sites", especially in the heart of Texas where football is king, but there are also those who study the media's perspective, an individual player, or playstation 200?, to gain their perspective on the game, whether it be football, basketball, baseball, or checkers. The point I was making is, it's tougher than what we think and much easier to see a rush, a broken play, blown coverage, or whatever from the stands and a day later, than within seconds when our favorite individual players life is on the line! A.J. has shown to be extremely knowledable, as those who I have had in depth football convo's and everyone's opinion is theirs, and I respect that. My post is really for those who think no matter what the Texans should be in the Super Bowl every year. I for one, am realist. If we stink.....we stink! If a player stinks......he stinks. At the same time, I do realize his job is ,much harder than mine, being that he's most likely working out right now to save his life, and I'm typing to save mine.......lol :highfive:

pittbull
06-18-2005, 05:32 PM
A.J., Grid, and Arlington. I for one know you to be knowledgable about the game, and my rant was not to attack you guys. It was merely for those who may be looking at our threads who think the game is "easy"! :ouch:

throwANDREtheBALL
06-18-2005, 05:42 PM
its not Carr's fault that Mckinney is washed up already. And "project" Wand was starting before he had developed into starting caliber. Infantrycak, we should put you at QB and see how fast you PEE your pants from all the angry 300+pounders trying to knock you out.


Quote from Infantrycak
"Very true, but there are times when he could learn to slide one or two steps to assist the OL instead of going into full flight mode."


Yeah, that's it eh, buddy.............just needs to learn to slide ?

hahahhahaha..............good one buddy........... :highfive:

JacksonvilleJaguar4
06-18-2005, 06:28 PM
Carr will alot better this year, I heard you guys are instaling more quick 3-5 step drop designed to get the ball out of Carr's hand faster. I know your solid #1 reciever is Andre Johnson, and you have talent in Gaffney, and Bradford, but they aren't solid #2's but what about this I think his name is Jerome Mathis? What about him? I heard he was fast and impressed alot of people in practice sounds like he could be your #2. How good is this guy? If so, these quick 3-5 step drops, with solid help from Johnson, Mathis, Bradford, Gaffney lets not exclude the HB's and FB's and TE's could contribute along with the recieveing corps, could set up Carr to have that 24 TD 10 INT 3,600+ yard season many of you guys are talking about. :highfive:

Grid
06-18-2005, 06:38 PM
Mathis.. most likely.. will be our #4 or #5 receiver. I think we will find a way to fit him into our roster so that we can put him out there on 3rd and longs and such.. but chances are he will not be our #2 or #3 for another season or so. He needs time to develope.

Armstrong is another good WR we have who will most likely play a bigger role in our offense this next season... all in all I think with Gaffney, Bradford, Armstrong, and Johnson.. we will be in good shape. And with our returning Oline and their experience in the zone blocking scheme.. we will have better protection for carr.. and bigger holes for Davis.

I think we will be a borderline top ten Offense.. somewhere in the 8-12 range.

JacksonvilleJaguar4
06-18-2005, 07:03 PM
Here are some pics of Carr (tried to get pictures of him and the line)

http://www.kansasviking.com/imageshouston/david_carr.html

http://www.kansasviking.com/imageshouston/jabar_gaffney.html

http://www.kansasviking.com/imageshouston/kevin_williams.html

http://bookofjoe.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/tx_david_carr_getty.jpg

pittbull
06-18-2005, 09:36 PM
Way to dig out old stats! That's a good one to have around!

Porky
06-18-2005, 10:48 PM
I have to agree with Arlington here. Figures lie, and liars figure. I would say Brady is about 3 times better than Carr, at least according to his mantle. Carr has plusses in his game, and I am a big fan, but I try to look at things objectively. And, looking at it objectively, considering he was the #1 pick in the draft, I have to say he has been a mild disapointment. I think Arlington was pretty much spot on in his criticisms. That's not to say Carr couldn't make a giant leap this year, but imo, his hype hasn't come close to matching his productivty thus far.

ArlingtonTexan
06-18-2005, 11:47 PM
Explian what games and what were the bad ones? Pockett awareness? he rushed 73 times for 300 yds 4.6 yd avg. and when blitzed makes good decisions (Kansas City game if you want to go watch it) and NObody can say anything about his arm strength it is up there with Bretts

I complimented his arm strength. If you want an explanation of pocket awareness read the entire thread. There are several options offered by myself and others throughout the thread.

By your previous post, I am probably not going to be able sway you with a logical arguemnt because you think Carr is already great and not young QB learning how to play the position. I am open to the fact that he could improve greatly and prove me wrong. Are you open to the fact that last year for every good game you could pull out, I could pull out another where he stepped into pressure repeatedly , or checked down too often and quickly to DomDavis?

BTW, scrambling stats if anything prove my point. QBs like Steve Young, McNabb, Culpepper became better QBs after they learned when to run versus taking off as soon as the DLman had more than an inch of space from the OLman. The best running QB in the league Michael Vick has the worse pocket awareness in the league. He was sacked 46 times with superior running skills to over half the RBs in the league.

Because I think Carr a starting calibur but, not great QB back does not mean I hate him. It is not an either/or game. Like most things the truth is somewhere in the middle. If you stop to comprehend what is written you would see that I am saying Carr is the middle of the pack of NFL QBs.

Big B Texan Fan
06-19-2005, 03:01 AM
Something else to ponder too is that the team did not open up the play book because they knew they were not gonna win too many games and did not want to overwhelm young players. Plus other teams can game plan you better with more on film. We have not given anyone too much to study.
Starting this season we're gonna see Mucho Mas plays with multiple formations that it's gonna keep the die-hard Texan fans on they're toes. And as far as the play book is concerned, I'm sure we waited to see what kind of talent we were gonna have before we carved too much in stone. This alone will help he Kid bloosom into a better QB.
I'm looking for about 3800+ yards passing with 30-32 TD's & 10-12 INT's. This prediction could be a year pre-mature but let's hope not.

Davis37
06-19-2005, 04:30 AM
I'm looking for about 3800+ yards passing with 30-32 TD's & 10-12 INT's. This prediction could be a year pre-mature but let's hope not.

I think Carr is going to improve this season, but not that much. Your saying that hes gonna double the amount of tds from last season (16). I think he will throw between 20-25 this season and im hoping he can cut his interceptions down to around 10 or so. If Carr can throw more than 25 tds next season, I will be very impressed.

TEXANRED
06-19-2005, 08:55 AM
when the Texans quit getting themselves in third and long is when you will see Davids numbers start to increase and the sacks, int decrease and TD, and yardage increase. third and eight your not (i know its hard to believe for all you palmer haters and i am on of them) going to run the ball. so you get blitzed, sacked then punt.

For all you carr lovers out there dont stress out to much. this city has never liked any of its QB's. Hated pasterinie(i dont know how to spell his name) hated moon, hated billy joe tolliver but for abvious reasons-cause he sucked. I pesonaly couldnt stand cody carlson, in fact the only QB this city has ever liked is Bucky Richardson. I dont think he ever started a game.

ArlingtonTexan
06-19-2005, 10:36 AM
Well if he is a middle of the pack qb and we are a middle of the pack franchise right now and we have seen all carr is going to do, wouldnt we be trying to get some qbs in here through FA or the draft to take his spot?
You want pockett presents then have carr dodge 1 guy then 3!

While you are being cute, there are some blitz pick-up where the job of the QB is to have released the ball or to avoid a certain blitzer and then throw the ball. (corner blitzes often fall into this category)

As for the Texans being a middle of the pack franchise, the hardest step for Carr as a QB and the Texans a franchise will be going from the big pile in the middle of the league to becoming consistent playoff and Superbowl contenders. A middle of the pack QB can have top 5 year and middle of the pack team can make a run at the Superbowl. Being a top 5-10 QB year in year out and serious playoff team for several years in a row in more challenging.

As for Carr this is a key year, as the number 1 pick and being allotted time to grow with a young franchise, he will be given four full years to develop. That's a ton of time in the NFL, but it is the proper thing to do in the texans situation. Over a career Carr and Harrington are pretty close in terms of career wins, pass rating, etc, but notice the Lions have brought in Garcia as at least a token challenge.

Porky
06-19-2005, 12:26 PM
WHY?Put Tom Brady on our Texans and put Carr on the Patriots. You think the Texans would have 3 Superbowl rings by now. I believe that Carr would have a couple Superbowl rings playing for the Patriots right now, he is that good.

Once again, Arlington has hit the nail on the head. As to your question, I will disagree. I don't think Carr, at this stage of his career, would have led the Pats to a SB, nor would Brady have won one here, but that's an open question, and can be debated. What I don't think is an open question is comparing Carr's and Brady's careers. Brady has much, much better pocket awareness, desicion making, and comes up biggest in the biggest games. Right now, he is the best QB in the game, and that includes Manning. When Manning, or Carr put three SB trophies on thier mantle in 4 years, then we can talk. But, right now, this contest is a total rout, and Brady is far superior. And, to add insult to injury Carr was a #1 overall pick, and Brady a 6th rounder. Ouch! :goodnight

Vinny
06-19-2005, 12:47 PM
Very true, but there are times when he could learn to slide one or two steps to assist the OL instead of going into full flight mode. Lord knows he has reason to run screaming much of the time but he could improve in this area. Speaking of that, if you go to the bottom of this page and click our home page you will see a new video that shows them working on sliding in the pocket. It's called Drill Instruction: Quarterbacks.

Lucky
06-19-2005, 01:03 PM
...And, to add insult to injury Carr was a #1 overall pick, and Brady a 6th rounder. Ouch! :goodnight
Not in the same draft. Brady was taken in the 2000 draft, 2 years prior to the Texans stepping on the field. There's no "Ouch", the Texans never had a shot at Brady. Or Manning for that matter.

And of course Brady & Manning are better QBs right now than Carr. But I will say that David has seen things in the NFL that Tom & Peyton never have. Did you know that despite playing 20 fewer games than Brady, Carr has been sacked 140 times compared to Brady's 130? Or that Carr has been sacked once more than Manning and has played in 72 fewer games. Sure pocket awareness can count for some of that. But a nearly 300% difference? Please!

Has Tom or Payton ever felt a rush the likes that David did against the Chargers in '02? The Saints in '03? Any Colt game or even the Browns last season? Yeah, they play in the same league. But Carr's experiences in the NFL backfield belong on a different planet, if not solar system.

Brady steps into a team that's capable of a Super Bowl run. Manning comes into the league with Marshall Faulk as his RB, Marvin Harrison his #1 WR, and Tarik Glenn his LT. They haven't had the "privilege" of lining up with Jimmy Herndon, Demingo Graham, Jonathan Wells, Billy Miller, & Seth Wand. Maybe Brady could have made it through the past 3 years here, I don't know. But from watching Manning scream bloody murder after each time he's touched, I know he wouldn't have made it. Carr has stood tall all 3 years and barely said a peep. Things are going to get better around here, and David Carr's leadership will play a big part in that. And leadership, not TD/Int ratio, is how you ultimately judge a QB.

ArlingtonTexan
06-19-2005, 01:57 PM
Think you are not giving Brady enough credit. The NE Patriots were a mediocore team and became a Superbowl contender once Brady was installed at QB. He makes the players around him better. That and his leadership are his greatest attributes. His skills as passer and in the pocket are often underrated by many.

NE's OL is okay, but not special. Unitl last year, he did not have an above average Rb and he does not have an Andre Johnson in his WR core.

I like Carr's leadership and toughness very much. No, he has not had even a mediocore pass blocking line, but I think blindly going when he gets a better OL, he will be a great QB is an oversimplification and ignores the fact he is not a complete product in his development.

cred
06-20-2005, 02:58 PM
I do see at least his stats getting better because of the idea of shorter passes and timing routes because our receivers, especially AJ can make alot of YAC yards, and once the opposing defences stary keying on the short passes we at that point can air it out with play-action pass as long as o-line can hold the point of attack just a little better which I believe they will with the added time together of another season.


sorry about the spelling

eriadoc
06-21-2005, 04:31 AM
I agree that Carr has flaws in his game. I have yet to see a QB that doesn't. WHat kills me about the Carr haters is how they can come to the conclusion that he is not and never will be the QB to take us to the promised land. It's been pointed out before, but it bears repeating -- go look at year 1-3 stats on many of the big-name QBs out there. Aside from the two phenoms from the class of '84, most have very similar numbers to what Carr has. Hell, Plunkett suffered most of his career before finally landing ona good team and winning a Super Bowl. Favre was very erratic and many will argue that he still is. He's got hardware and he'll be in the HoF.

From a statistics standpoint, Carr has shown as much improvement as most other year 3 QBs that went on to be successful -- and more than many that never did. From an intangibles standpoint, he has courage, leadership, and a will to win. He's improved, from my observation, in the areas of awareness, decision-making with the football, and improvisation. You can point out flaws, but there simply isn't as much evidence to support the assertion that he won't be a Pro Bowl-caliber QB ..... yet. We'll see after the season, but at this point, Carr should be the #11 concern on an offense of 11 men, IMO.

Davis37
06-21-2005, 06:33 AM
The thing is, I dont see how anyone can bash Carr seeing what he has to work with. Yes, he does have AJ to throw 2, but he doesnt have a good #2. He also has a horrible pass protection. He has all the tools to become a great QB, but until we get him a solid #2 WR and decent pass protection we can never see his true potential. I dont think we can/should judge him until he has better talent around him.

rittenhouserobz
06-21-2005, 06:35 AM
Why would somebody compare Brady to Carr? Their repective teams are so different. Carr has more arm strength. I would be willing to bet that if he were somehow drafted by NE in 2002, then Carr would be their QB right now. I am probably giving NE's coaching the greatest credit, which appears to be due.

BTW, Brady or Big-Ben are mediocore if they are the Texans QB. The Texans just don't have the well established coaches and systems in place. If the Texans keep the coaches for the next couple years, then I think they have a shot at winning a SB with Carr at the helm. If the Texans change coaches now, then I think we could be 3-4 years away. IMHO.

Beaverhunter
06-21-2005, 11:29 AM
Carr is a good guy and he shows some talent I dont think people hate him. I think a lot of people like him he seems like a nice guy.But with that said the practice time is over and its time to win just look around the league other teams completely rebuild in a few years and get in the playoffs and it usually is behind a bold and determined QB and a run stopping defense so if Carr has something to show us its time. The Texans should be winners first and foremost no excuses even if its ugly we need to win. It has been a long time for Houston so whoever is QB Carr,Ragone,or someone else we need a winner now!

Vambo, the Marble Eye
06-21-2005, 11:34 AM
[QUOTE=ArlingtonTexan]
I am one of those who is called a Carr hater, because I think carr is a starting NFL quality QB in the range of Brooks or Plummer.

Cuz, Brooks is practically retarded... and I just want to KILL HIM when he laughs after throwing an interception. I am not saying Brooks doesn't have talent, but you must really hate Carr to rank him in the same category as Brooks when it comes to intangibles like leadership. :)

TEXANRED
06-21-2005, 12:07 PM
There should be no question of Carrs leadership skills on or off the field. Just look at how he handled himself after the fans pelted his wife and children with beer. Put yourself in his position and think if that was your family. How would you react? He also handled the showers of boo's after the cleveland game. Couch was booed less than Carr and couch went on a radio show and whined like a baby. And then after all of that he still went to the football clinic for the lady's to help explain the game of football. Lets also remember during the Falcon game when Carr had a separated shoulder and came into replace banks and won that game for us. that was a late season game with nothing on the line and Carr brakes off a 30 yard run with a bum shoulder. No other QB in the league would have done that. Any other Qb would have told the coach to put ragone in. Look at Vick he sprains a pinky nail and he out 6-8 weeks.

And despite the record Carr had respectable numbers last year. He threw 16 touchdown in a heavily run offense. Yes he did throw 14 int but that is also the competitor in him trying to make somthing happen.

He is a competitor, a leader, a hard thrower, and i belive that he finaly has the tools around him for us to make it to the playoffs.

And on a side note has anyone noticed that the three players that we have on the headliner for the message board that carr looks like he is running for his life?

JacksonvilleJaguar4
06-21-2005, 12:49 PM
^ no offense to you guys but if you looked at the acctual picture, you would probably see a defender diving to tackle him, I doubt he's just scramnbling because he wants to

canadiantexan
06-21-2005, 02:31 PM
I just dont understand the Carr haters out there if you look at his numbers from last year they stand up well compared to the rest of the league.
Carrs QB rating of 83.5 put him ahead of qbs like Hasselbeck, Leftwich, Brooks, Vick and Carson Palmer. Davids completion percentage was better than Carson Palmers, Tom Brady, Leftwich, Hasselbeck, Plummer, Delhomme, Brooks, Vick and Harrington. He also threw for more yards than top QB's like Collins, Hasselbeck, Brees, Harrington, Leftwich, Palmer, Pennington, Roethlisberger, Vick and Warner+Eli manning combined. In fact in the AFC the only QB's to throw for more yards were Manning for the Colts(4557), Green from the Chiefs(4591), Plummer from the Broncos(4089) and Tom Brady from the Patriots(3692) Carr threw for 3531 yards with fewer attempts than any of these guys...

Player Yards Atts Yards + Atts +

Trent Green 4591 556 1060 more than Carr 90 more than Carr
Payton Manning 4557 497 1026 more than Carr 31 more than Carr
Jake Plummer 4089 521 558 more thaqn Carr 55 more Than Carr
Tom Brady 3692 474 161 more than Carr 8 more than Carr

Also the only better completion % in the AFC were Manning, Big Ben, Green, Brees and Pennington. These players all had advantages that helped them beat Carr

Manning has three number one recievers and a quality tight end he also calls many plays.
Big Ben played in a very safe offence only throwing 5-15 yard passes most of the time and very rarely threw the ball downfeild. He was also helped by the great recieving core of Ward, Buressand Randel El.
Trent Green has the best O-line, pass catching tight end and arguably the best pass catching RB in the league.
The very same for Brees with the exception of the Best O-Line a very good one but not the best.
Pennington was the only guy who didnt have a distinct advantage over Carr.
I'm not saying numbers are everything because even the most casual football fan knows thats not true. What I am saying that if you take these numbers and factor in that Carr did all these on a third year team with no true tight end, very poor pass protection (and a coach who is a run first run second and throw when you have to kind of coach) then what Carr did last year looks even more impressive. Add to that Davids leadership skills and passion for the game and tremendous arm strength and you have all the ingrediants of a future pro bowl QB. :drool: :drool:

P.S. Sorry the numbers got bunched up

Vinny
06-21-2005, 03:13 PM
I don't see much 'Carr hating' here. Why call people talking about the quarterback - and care to critique his game - "Carr haters"? What's with that?

tsip
06-21-2005, 03:29 PM
My only concern about last season was that it was a tale of two halves
for Carr--great 1st half, horrible second. And,too, our running game was
solid the 2nd half so what happened to our passing game? For us to win
and be a playoff contender, I believe we are going to need to be more
consistent. As Capers pointed out, we only won 3 of our last 9 games
in '04 as our passing game was non-existent during that period. I'm not
saying it was all Carrs fault but the season is 16 games, so-for me- I'd
like to see more consistency and a greater emphasis on winning and less
on stats.

infantrycak
06-21-2005, 03:35 PM
I don't see much 'Carr hating' here. Why call people talking about the quarterback - and care to critique his game - "Carr haters"? What's with that?

C'mon Vinny, don't you know all of life is either black or white, zero on a test or 100? Either Carr is perfect or he is a bust. Either DD sucks or he is LT. We need to issue all of society the old MacPlus computers so they can remember there are shades of grey.

canadiantexan
06-21-2005, 04:02 PM
C'mon Vinny, don't you know all of life is either black or white, zero on a test or 100? Either Carr is perfect or he is a bust. Either DD sucks or he is LT. We need to issue all of society the old MacPlus computers so they can remember there are shades of grey.

I'm not trying to say Carr is perfect just that he is better than some of the Bashers say he is. Is there still alot he has to learn YES. Is he the best in the game NO. But what he is in my mind is one of if not the best young QB in the entire NFL and that is a very good thing for a young franchise. One thing is for sure David IS the face of our franchise and as such I think that we (the fans) should support and believe in our player(s). Much the same can be said of DD, is he a Hall of fame back...No probobly not but he is a very good running back who can catch as well as he can run. But if you ask certain people around this message board like (NeedRBin05) they will just say he is terrible. It is good to have your own opinions and express them, that is what a message board is for but...it makes your point more valid if it can be backed up with facts instead of just spouting off about something or someone that you just simply do not like. When our O-Line is shored up we will have a pretty good idea of where David is at as a NFL QB until then it may be a little pre-mature to write off a QB or put him on a pedestal.

TEXANRED
06-21-2005, 04:36 PM
I don't see much 'Carr hating' here. Why call people talking about the quarterback - and care to critique his game - "Carr haters"? What's with that?

There is a diffrence between critiqueing and bashing.

Example: Critique-Carr has the physical attributes to be a tough strong QB that is suprisingly fast and able to move out of the pocket and make plays using his leg. However at times he needs to settle down, step up into the pocket and trust (yea i know) his blockers to do there job so as to make the big plays down field.

Bashing-Carr has no pocket awarness and cant seem to find any open recievers down field. He cant read coverages and is to nervous to be an effective QB. Just because he can run dosent make him good, just look at vick,Mcnabb,Young and anyother Qb that was labled as a scrambler.

Vinny
06-21-2005, 10:00 PM
I still don't see any Carr hatred or Carr bashing here. I see some rather intelligent insight and some homer posts, but I don't see any hatred. We talk a heck of a lot worse about some of our other players.

Big B Texan Fan
06-21-2005, 11:54 PM
C'mon Vinny, don't you know all of life is either black or white, zero on a test or 100? Either Carr is perfect or he is a bust. Either DD sucks or he is LT. We need to issue all of society the old MacPlus computers so they can remember there are shades of grey.
Thank you. Too bad for me my wife don't read these MB's!!!!!!!!

GrandPa
06-22-2005, 09:23 AM
The thing is, I dont see how anyone can bash Carr seeing what he has to work with. Yes, he does have AJ to throw 2, but he doesnt have a good #2. He also has a horrible pass protection. He has all the tools to become a great QB, but until we get him a solid #2 WR and decent pass protection we can never see his true potential. I dont think we can/should judge him until he has better talent around him.

The cream rises to the top or at least shows the potential to be that special player.

David Carr has done neither and will never be an elite NFL quarterback.

If he does not show great improvement this year then is it time to accept the fact that he will never get the Texans further than maybe a first round playoff loss.

TEXANRED
06-22-2005, 09:37 AM
The cream rises to the top or at least shows the potential to be that special player.

David Carr has done neither and will never be an elite NFL quarterback.

If he does not show great improvement this year then is it time to accept the fact that he will never get the Texans further than maybe a first round playoff loss.


BASHING

Vinny
06-22-2005, 09:40 AM
This is a football message board. This is what happens (different people will have different opinions). We talk so badly about everyone else's game....Why don't I see you all upset about that? All the players are equal as humans.

JamesLovesGames
06-22-2005, 10:03 AM
It's going to be an interesting year. Carr's got alot to prove.

titan hater
06-22-2005, 10:04 AM
Ok, we're all stupid.

Yay Texans! You're the best! Carr is a Hall of Famer. 16-0 baby!

Is that better?

Why reject legitmate and constructive criticism from people who have watched football closely for dozens of years? Granted most of us have only played through high school or a few years of college ball, but to say that fans can't have an educated opinion about the game just because they haven't played at the highest level is ridiculous. Some of us have been watching football closely since the 60's and I think it's a bit presumptuous to basically tell fans they don't know what they are talking about unless they have played or coached.

Thank You Howard "I never played the Game" Cosell...

Davis37
06-22-2005, 10:24 AM
The cream rises to the top or at least shows the potential to be that special player.

David Carr has done neither and will never be an elite NFL quarterback.

If he does not show great improvement this year then is it time to accept the fact that he will never get the Texans further than maybe a first round playoff loss.

now thats true bashing... Im not even gonna try to dispute this, cause its apparent he is just a Carr hater. Just one thing, watch the Texans vs Vikes game from last year. That will show you some of Carrs potential.

TEXANRED
06-22-2005, 10:31 AM
This is a football message board. This is what happens (different people will have different opinions). We talk so badly about everyone else's game....Why don't I see you all upset about that? All the players are equal as humans.

Fine lets talk about other peoples game.
I like DD. He is a hard tough runner that bears down and scraps out for every yard he gets. Thats why he has had back to back 1000 yard seasons without ever playing a full season. I like David Carr, I like gaffney I believe that he is a slightly above average player with decenst hands and speed, God help me i even like Bradford, throw him the ball on a slant and watch him run 80 yard for a TD.(and yes i know its the only time he can catch the ball) i like Chester Pitts and as bad as he played the first year the second year at tackle was like night and day. He is another player that beared down consintrated and work hard and you never hear him complain. I dont have an opinion on our current LT cause this is his second(if he starts in that position)year at LT and this might be a drastic improvement as well. I even like, are ya ready for it, Mckinney, there ya go, i said it, i feel Wands rough first year at tackle and Pitts helping Wand left Mckinney on an island.

I am a fan, a homer. I am such a homer that my first child is due during the Texans Bye week. My wife accuses me of planning it that way so i wont have to miss a game. (as long as she comes on time watch her be late).but i am supposed to be a homer. Thats why we have the Texans.

I am two things, a born bred Texan, and a Texan fan. Talk bad about either and you get an ear full.

But I guess that what message boards are for.

:homer: and proud!

GrandPa
06-22-2005, 06:24 PM
now thats true bashing... Im not even gonna try to dispute this, cause its apparent he is just a Carr hater. Just one thing, watch the Texans vs Vikes game from last year. That will show you some of Carrs potential.

Carr threw for 16 TDs and 14 INTs in 2004. He has yet to show any big game ability. Yes he was able to put together a 372 yard, 3 TD game against a defensively poor Vikings, and two additional 2 TD games, but outside of that, he didn't throw more than one TD in a game. DC has shown great toughness during his brief NFL career. What he hasnít shown is an ability to get the ball in the endzone on a consistent basis.

bigtex77
06-22-2005, 09:27 PM
What he hasnít shown is an ability to get the ball in the endzone on a consistent basis.

He has yet to show any big game ability.

It's tough to when you're eating turf. If they protect him this year all of the haters will be silenced. Well, after they finish their "I'ts about time he did something" rants.