PDA

View Full Version : Time to replace Walter


El Tejano
01-18-2013, 02:30 PM
I know, I know, he does the small things right. Well, I'm tired of the small things. We need another receiver who can do the small things AND big things right. Andre doesn't have many years left and Walter just can't seem to get open enough anymore.

If you weren't re-signing certain players this past off season because they didn't contribute enough on 3rd down defense, or dropped passes (which a no catch is equivalent to) then we can get rid of a receiver who isn't helping out the passing game much. And I've appreciated Walter over the seasons but it's about getting better.

tru80texan
01-18-2013, 02:47 PM
I know, I know, he does the small things right. Well, I'm tired of the small things. We need another receiver who can do the small things AND big things right. Andre doesn't have many years left and Walter just can't seem to get open enough anymore.

If you weren't re-signing certain players this past off season because they didn't contribute enough on 3rd down defense, or dropped passes (which a no catch is equivalent to) then we can get rid of a receiver who isn't helping out the passing game much. And I've appreciated Walter over the seasons but it's about getting better.

Couldn't agree more. Walter has had issues getting seperation & taking pressure off of Andre for a few years now. He simply cannot add anything to help the offense outside of his, overrated in my mind, blocking. His limited contributions have not earned him the right to be the starter & to be honest I'm sure not he would or could be a starter for any team outside of the Texans. Kubiak has carried him along long enough & considering Walter is due 3-3.5M next season I believe that money could be well spent elsewhere that could actually help this team progress.

Rey
01-18-2013, 03:01 PM
It was time to replace Walter two years ago.

otisbean
01-18-2013, 03:06 PM
This is what bums me out about Posey. I know he only has a small body of work but in that brief time he showed good blocking ability, good speed and good hands. I believe, if not for his injury, he'd be our number 2 next season.

Corrosion
01-18-2013, 03:06 PM
Yes. You will get no arguement from me. I wont make excuses for him anylonger.

silentassassin
01-18-2013, 03:16 PM
This is what bums me out about Posey. I know he only has a small body of work but in that brief time he showed good blocking ability, good speed and good hands. I believe, if not for his injury, he'd be our number 2 next season.

Definitely. That injury really sucks.

tru80texan
01-18-2013, 03:17 PM
This is what bums me out about Posey. I know he only has a small body of work but in that brief time he showed good blocking ability, good speed and good hands. I believe, if not for his injury, he'd be our number 2 next season.

I had my doubts about posey early on, but he was really coming on. It's unfortunate that we weren't allowed to see more of him, Jean, & Martin earlier in the season to get a true idea of what kind of talent they have. Kubiak, imo, held them back & because of that there continues to be questions about the position as a whole. I still have high hopes for all 3, but they need opportunities to play & that seems to have been hard to come by w/ Walter in the way.

Dutchrudder
01-18-2013, 03:23 PM
If he signs for vet minimum, I don't mind keeping him around. Even then, I would be worried that he keeps them from upgrading the position entirely.

tru80texan
01-18-2013, 03:29 PM
If he signs for vet minimum, I don't mind keeping him around. Even then, I would be worried that he keeps them from upgrading the position entirely.

He's already signed thru 2014. Set to make somewhere between 3-3.5M each of those years. Do you mean if he restructures to only receive vet league minimum? He took a pay cut last season w/out recouping any of the money lost in a bonus or what not. Him taking another could happen again, but I just can't help but think that kubiak will not move on from him & allow the others opportunities to step up.

76Texan
01-18-2013, 03:42 PM
I had hoped that Kubiak would work Jean into the line-up more to take over those blocking situations, but I guess Jean wasn't consistent enough in any aspect of the game to earn more playing time.

And now with the injury to Posey, I don't know what to say.

Reduce Walter salary and keep him one more year and draft another receiver is probably the most prudent thing to do.

Dutchrudder
01-18-2013, 03:49 PM
He's already signed thru 2014. Set to make somewhere between 3-3.5M each of those years. Do you mean if he restructures to only receive vet league minimum? He took a pay cut last season w/out recouping any of the money lost in a bonus or what not. Him taking another could happen again, but I just can't help but think that kubiak will not move on from him & allow the others opportunities to step up.

He has a contract, but none of it is guaranteed at this point. Cutting him this offseason will save 4.5 million dollars in 2013, which could be used to get a WR who can catch and run better. If he's willing to go to vet minimum, I don't mind keeping him around, but if he restructures to 3 million again, then we are just wasting money that could be better spent elsewhere.

76Texan
01-18-2013, 03:55 PM
He has a contract, but none of it is guaranteed at this point. Cutting him this offseason will save 4.5 million dollars in 2013, which could be used to get a WR who can catch and run better. If he's willing to go to vet minimum, I don't mind keeping him around, but if he restructures to 3 million again, then we are just wasting money that could be better spent elsewhere.

$2M, maybe $2.5 max just as a token for valor, what do you think?

And watch, they will just pay him the 4, LoL!

Dutchrudder
01-18-2013, 03:58 PM
$2M, maybe $2.5 max just as a token for valor, what do you think?

And watch, they will just pay him the 4, LoL!

1.5 million, that's my final offer!:fingergun:

76Texan
01-18-2013, 04:01 PM
1.5 million, that's my final offer!:fingergun:

It can happen, but I kinda of doubt it though, haven't we learned anything about the Texans organization yet? It's kinda of good and not so good ???

tru80texan
01-18-2013, 04:01 PM
$2M, maybe $2.5 max just as a token for valor, what do you think?

And watch, they will just pay him the 4, LoL!

No on both. That's what he weaseled out of them this season for another stellar year of blocking. That's just too much for what has to offer or lack thereof.

The Texans need the money so I can't see them giving him 4 after cutting his pay last season. That money could easily be used to help sign Quin who has more to offer to this team imo.

76Texan
01-18-2013, 04:03 PM
No on both. That's what he weaseled out of them this season for another stellar year of blocking. That's just too much for what has to offer or lack thereof.

The Texans need the money so I can't see them giving him 4 after cutting his pay last season. That money could easily be used to help sign Quin who has more to offer to this team imo.

I can see them doing it if they need to; after all they let quite a few guys walk last year.

tru80texan
01-18-2013, 04:09 PM
I can see them doing it if they need to; after all they let quite a few guys walk last year.

I hear ya on letting guys walk last season. That's what kinda has me wondering if Antonio is on the radar. He's due to make 6M next season which is quite a bit. If the Texans feel it is necessary for them to free up more money I wouldn't be surprised if his name comes into play. I wouldn't like it, but after the last offseason moves I wouldn't rule out anything.

silvrhand
01-18-2013, 04:14 PM
I hear ya on letting guys walk last season. That's what kinda has me wondering if Antonio is on the radar. He's due to make 6M next season which is quite a bit. If the Texans feel it is necessary for them to free up more money I wouldn't be surprised if his name comes into play. I wouldn't like it, but after the last offseason moves I wouldn't rule out anything.

Antonio has had if not his best, one of his best seasons this year, don't think he's going anywhere.

tru80texan
01-18-2013, 04:19 PM
Antonio has had if not his best, one of his best seasons this year, don't think he's going anywhere.

I realize that & I hope you are right, but I don't recall too many thinking DeMeco & Winston were going anywhere at this same time last year either. That salary cap will make teams do some strange things.

srrono
01-18-2013, 04:42 PM
This team drives me crazy sometimes. We keep around a WR who can't create separation or get open but blocks well. The #1 job of a receiver is to catch passes right? Then we let go talented traditional blocking FBs for what we all agree is a dangerous mismatch FB that the team refuses to use consistently. Kubs keeps Walters around because of his blocking value then gives up blocking advantage FB for mismatch FB we don't use as a advantage. Instaed Casey is constantly trying to only be a blocker which is not his strength, so confusing. At this point I would rather see a really good FB blocking for Foster and every ounce in a while that FB slips out for a huge catch with no one covering him(and sometimes drop that pass lol) atleast the blocking will be a advantage.


Its like Jeckil & Hyde.

Texcore
01-18-2013, 04:56 PM
Couldn't agree more. Walter has had issues getting seperation & taking pressure off of Andre for a few years now. He simply cannot add anything to help the offense outside of his, overrated in my mind, blocking. His limited contributions have not earned him the right to be the starter & to be honest I'm sure not he would or could be a starter for any team outside of the Texans. Kubiak has carried him along long enough & considering Walter is due 3-3.5M next season I believe that money could be well spent elsewhere that could actually help this team progress.

Very true, I love Walter, but we have to move. Sucks that Posey had that devastating injury. I had high hopes for him. Athletes just aren't the same after that injury. Hopefully Posey can be an exception to the rule.

Jules Winnfield
01-18-2013, 05:47 PM
bu bu but he's a legendary blocker!!!!!!!

smdh....

it seems like certain type of "people" get way too much benefit of the doubt and are held less accountable than others.

rush2112mn
01-18-2013, 07:02 PM
I was hoping Jean or Posey would eventually move into to 2nd wr position.......Posey is out....Jean.....I dont know know what the deal is with him. I thought this was supposed to be the year he made a big splash coming off injury last year. Nothing much happened.
Think they are going to have to draft or pickup 1 or 2 wrs again this year.....Doubt Posey ever gets back to where he was ....those achillles tears are brutal.

Grungo_Taco
01-18-2013, 08:15 PM
This team drives me crazy sometimes. We keep around a WR who can't create separation or get open but blocks well. The #1 job of a receiver is to catch passes right? Then we let go talented traditional blocking FBs for what we all agree is a dangerous mismatch FB that the team refuses to use consistently. Kubs keeps Walters around because of his blocking value then gives up blocking advantage FB for mismatch FB we don't use as a advantage. Instaed Casey is constantly trying to only be a blocker which is not his strength, so confusing. At this point I would rather see a really good FB blocking for Foster and every ounce in a while that FB slips out for a huge catch with no one covering him(and sometimes drop that pass lol) atleast the blocking will be a advantage.


Its like Jeckil & Hyde.

aaahahaha! what can ya say?.. Kubiak is such an aggie :/

thunderkyss
01-18-2013, 09:06 PM
If he signs for vet minimum, I don't mind keeping him around. Even then, I would be worried that he keeps them from upgrading the position entirely.

I don't mind keeping him either, but he's not a WR. He's a smallish TE. That's how I'd use him.

Two WR sets would include WRs not named Walter. Three wide receiver sets would not include 83. He'll make his money trying to keep OD or Graham off the field.

ATXtexanfan
01-18-2013, 09:44 PM
Walter isn't going anywhere. Hell, if we are keeping Matt we may as well keep Walter.

Bingo. Schaub more of a problem than Walter. New wrs same old inaccurate throws. Same short passes etc. Even if we had victor Cruz or Wes Weller schaub would miss the throw.

AJ-80
01-18-2013, 10:33 PM
Bingo. Schaub more of a problem than Walter. New wrs same old inaccurate throws. Same short passes etc. Even if we had victor Cruz or Wes Weller schaub would miss the throw.
Well, Shaub isn't going anywhere so the only option is to surround him with talent. That's the only way at this point.

mussop
01-18-2013, 11:12 PM
Well, Shaub isn't going anywhere so the only option is to surround him with talent. That's the only way at this point.

OMG! This is ridiculous!!!!! Please describe the kind of players you want to add "AROUND" Schaub and then explain how he (SCHAUB) is going to be able to utilize them. He already has three of the best weapons of any offense in the NFL and he has a FB that is as versatile and has as good of play making ability as any other FB in the league. (Don't even bring up his drop in the playoff game)

You want to replace Walter fine. Im ok with that. But if you think that player is going to make a huge difference you are crazy.

ReliantTexan
01-18-2013, 11:40 PM
OMG! This is ridiculous!!!!! Please describe the kind of players you want to add "AROUND" Schaub and then explain how he (SCHAUB) is going to be able to utilize them. He already has three of the best weapons of any offense in the NFL and he has a FB that is as versatile and has as good of play making ability as any other FB in the league. (Don't even bring up his drop in the playoff game)

You want to replace Walter fine. Im ok with that. But if you think that player is going to make a huge difference you are crazy.Let's not pretend that Foster is some Marshall Faulk in the passing game, or that Owen is one of the top tight ends in the league anymore.

I mean a rookie who was out of football for a year looked like our second most explosive player in the passing game late in the season.

AJ-80
01-18-2013, 11:47 PM
OMG! This is ridiculous!!!!! Please describe the kind of players you want to add "AROUND" Schaub and then explain how he (SCHAUB) is going to be able to utilize them. He already has three of the best weapons of any offense in the NFL and he has a FB that is as versatile and has as good of play making ability as any other FB in the league. (Don't even bring up his drop in the playoff game)

You want to replace Walter fine. Im ok with that. But if you think that player is going to make a huge difference you are crazy.
It's far from ridiculous...its factual.

Shaub is signed for 4 more years with 60 million on his contract. What is management going to do? Let him go? Let Yates play over him? Come on man, get real.

We are stuck with Matt Shaub, weather you like it or not, thats how its going to be, at least for the next couple of years. Having Kevin Walter as your complement to Andre is...sad? I don't even know.

Walter has been a solid receiver through his years here. Nothing special, yet consistent. You know what you're going to get from him. I like the guy, personally. But the Houston Texans are taking the next step in the NFL. We are going from a playoff team to Super Bowl contender (or at least thats what we are trying to do.) In order to make that next step, you cannot have Kevin Walter as your #2 guy. I'm fine with keeping him to be that #3-4 or to provide depth. But considering how much he will be asking for, thats going to be a bit of a challenge to negotiate that contract with him.

I hope you understand what I'm saying. Shaub is Shaub. you aren't going to change him. Give him another guy that makes plays. Give him a high-caliber prospect like Robert Woods or Tavon Austin. Andre has needed a playmaker alongside him for years. Its time we fill that need, finally. It will give our offense a new dimension, count on it.

mussop
01-19-2013, 12:58 AM
Let's not pretend that Foster is some Marshall Faulk in the passing game, or that Owen is one of the top tight ends in the league anymore.

Really? Foster is very good in the passing game. He just wasn't used enough this year. OD had one of his better years this year. How many passes did he have to make great catches and how many passed did he catch and get hit right away? Thats on the QB.

I mean a rookie who was out of football for a year looked like our second most explosive player in the passing game late in the season.

Really? And what good did it do us? He only caught 6 passes all season. I rest my case.

mussop
01-19-2013, 01:06 AM
It's far from ridiculous...its factual.

Shaub is signed for 4 more years with 60 million on his contract. What is management going to do? Let him go? Let Yates play over him? Come on man, get real.

We are stuck with Matt Shaub, weather you like it or not, thats how its going to be, at least for the next couple of years. Having Kevin Walter as your complement to Andre is...sad? I don't even know.

Walter has been a solid receiver through his years here. Nothing special, yet consistent. You know what you're going to get from him. I like the guy, personally. But the Houston Texans are taking the next step in the NFL. We are going from a playoff team to Super Bowl contender (or at least thats what we are trying to do.) In order to make that next step, you cannot have Kevin Walter as your #2 guy. I'm fine with keeping him to be that #3-4 or to provide depth. But considering how much he will be asking for, thats going to be a bit of a challenge to negotiate that contract with him.

I hope you understand what I'm saying. Shaub is Shaub. you aren't going to change him. Give him another guy that makes plays. Give him a high-caliber prospect like Robert Woods or Tavon Austin. Andre has needed a playmaker alongside him for years. Its time we fill that need, finally. It will give our offense a new dimension, count on it.

Dude I know Matt isn't going anywhere. Thats my point. He is what he is. He has good weapons available to him. Adding more isn't going to make him a better QB. He only looks at one option before he checks down. On the rare occasion he does look through more than one he isn't capable of getting the ball to anyone that isn't wide open within 15 yards. Adding another WR is fools gold.

The only way to help Schaub is to have a dominating running game and defense.

tru80texan
01-19-2013, 07:01 AM
Dude I know Matt isn't going anywhere. Thats my point. He is what he is. He has good weapons available to him. Adding more isn't going to make him a better QB. He only looks at one option before he checks down. On the rare occasion he does look through more than one he isn't capable of getting the ball to anyone that isn't wide open within 15 yards. Adding another WR is fools gold.

The only way to help Schaub is to have a dominating running game and defense.

So you add another weapon & there are no excuses. As it stands Walter is not a weapon because he can't draw attention away from Andre. That has been proven time & time again. Walter has issues getting seperation & this season his hands didn't seem as dependable as years past. It's time for him to move on & replace him w/ younger, faster talent. Remove the excuse for Schaub & then it will apparent that he is the problem. That or he actually realizes he has other options & starts getting others involved. That would be a good thing imo. Lets be honest...even if Schaub is the problem, which I believe he is to some degree, & he actually did look for Walter its highly unlikely that Walter would be open. He is easily swallowed up in 1 on 1 coverage & that is a problem that needs to be addressed regardless of Schaub.

HJam72
01-19-2013, 08:41 AM
It is not time to replace Walter.

It is past time to replace Walter.

welsh texan
01-19-2013, 11:36 AM
I agree it was time to replace Walter 2 years ago and its now long overdue, the problem I see is that while we needed to replace Walter 2 years ago with a WR2 to groom to become a WR1, we now need to be looking at someone to quickly become WR1 and knock AJ down to WR2. AJ seems like he could keep playing for a good number of years if used correctly, we need to ensure that we don't burn him out at this stage in his career. Unfortunately I feel the Texans have missed the boat on this one and the real issue stems from putting too much faith in Jacoby to become that guy.

If Walter is keeping someone with Jacoby's physical tools off the field still in year 3, surely at that point you know its a failed experiment.

Jean and Maehl both have a chance to be bonus acquisitions in UDFA who can play a role, Keyshawn and Posey though we definitely need them to pay off bigtime, Martin doesn't excite me all that much and Posey is just a huge ugly question mark now due to that injury, despite having looked promising later in the season.

We can keep going back to the QB situation till we're blue in the face, but its just pissing in the wind because we are stuck with Schaub for at least 2 years I'd imagine.

I've asked this question a few times in the past and I ask it again, what on earth is Kubiak looking for in a WR? Is Kubiak capable of selecting and coaching up a WR? So far, in 7 years, the bloke has managed to make a serviceable WR out of Kevin Walter (stuck with him too long), has failed to get what he needs out of JJones year after year AND failed to realise that the guy wasn't going to work in his system, and what else?

What on earth does Kubiak intend to do with the position? I have this huge worry that the bloke is incapable of addressing the position. If I'm right, God help us now that AJ is on the decline gradually, because all this talk about how well the system works to get mediocre talent receivers open is going to be totally ****ed the minute teams no longer need to double up on AJ to keep his gains from being game changing.

That time is getting closer all the time and how close are we to remedying it?

The more I think about it, the more I feel a strong urge to advocate an O heavy draft, ideally WR, OT, QB with the first 3 picks (obviously dependent on there not being an obvious BPA at any other position) maybe plug ILB in with the 3rd RD comp pick, and look to get a prototype to develop into DT in the 4th say. In an ideal world where all the talent available fits into that and can help us I think that puts the team in the right direction moving forward.

EllisUnit
01-19-2013, 12:00 PM
I was hoping Jean or Posey would eventually move into to 2nd wr position.......Posey is out....Jean.....I dont know know what the deal is with him. I thought this was supposed to be the year he made a big splash coming off injury last year. Nothing much happened.
Think they are going to have to draft or pickup 1 or 2 wrs again this year.....Doubt Posey ever gets back to where he was ....those achillles tears are brutal.

WHEN the ball was thrown Jeans way he looked good, but he hasnt exactly played very much and when he did you could almost always count on it being a run.

76Texan
01-19-2013, 12:14 PM
WHEN the ball was thrown Jeans way he looked good, but he hasnt exactly played very much and when he did you could almost always count on it being a run.

Jean and the rookies were too inconsistent, especially Martin and Jean.
In the off-season, I'll bring this job again to recount tbe plays where it happened.

EllisUnit
01-19-2013, 12:19 PM
Jean and the rookies were too inconsistent, especially Martin and Jean.
In the off-season, I'll bring this job again to recount tbe plays where it happened.

Saw jean drop a few but also saw him makes some really good tough catches as well. Still a young player but i still see potential

thunderkyss
01-19-2013, 12:34 PM
I love Andre, but he can't be our #1 going into next season. We need someone now who can feasibly be better than Andre. Posey's Achilles pretty much takes him out of that equation.

We need to draft a WR who could conceivably a #1 on other teams & let him compete, on the field, for that position..... a Torey Smith to Anquan Bolden, or a Julio Jones to Roddy White.

I know we're not going to replace Andre in one season, but the point is we can't be targeting WRs to take Walter's spot. Walter is done as a WR inmo, Andre clearly has that spot. We need to fill #1, #3, & #4...... I think we've got good candidates for 3 & 4 already on the team, we need someone better than all of them.

infantrycak
01-19-2013, 01:10 PM
I love Andre, but he can't be our #1 going into next season.

OK insanity has now truly hit the MB. Y'all have fun deciding which player to bash next.

tru80texan
01-19-2013, 01:26 PM
OK insanity has now truly hit the MB. Y'all have fun deciding which player to bash next.

Lol! I would have to agree. Andre is hardly an issue & is considered by many, & I am referring to many outside of Houston as well, to still be a very capable #1wr. He still dealt w/ double teams & being the defenses primary focus & he still posted some of best his stats. Can't complain about that...or at least I can't.

mussop
01-19-2013, 01:51 PM
So you add another weapon & there are no excuses. As it stands Walter is not a weapon because he can't draw attention away from Andre. That has been proven time & time again. Walter has issues getting seperation & this season his hands didn't seem as dependable as years past. It's time for him to move on & replace him w/ younger, faster talent. Remove the excuse for Schaub & then it will apparent that he is the problem. That or he actually realizes he has other options & starts getting others involved. That would be a good thing imo. Lets be honest...even if Schaub is the problem, which I believe he is to some degree, & he actually did look for Walter its highly unlikely that Walter would be open. He is easily swallowed up in 1 on 1 coverage & that is a problem that needs to be addressed regardless of Schaub.

There is no excuse. I have no problem replacing Walter. He should of been replaced a couple of years ago. But replacing him is far down the list of important moves this team needs to make this offseason.

playa465
01-19-2013, 01:56 PM
OK insanity has now truly hit the MB. Y'all have fun deciding which player to bash next.

Lol! I would have to agree. Andre is hardly an issue & is considered by many, & I am referring to many outside of Houston as well, to still be a very capable #1wr. He still dealt w/ double teams & being the defenses primary focus & he still posted some of best his stats. Can't complain about that...or at least I can't.

They are not bashing AJ. Their point is not to wait until AJ can no longer perform at a high level; get a top flight WR now while AJ is still good before it happens out of an act of desperation.

mussop
01-19-2013, 01:58 PM
OK insanity has now truly hit the MB. Y'all have fun deciding which player to bash next.

Its crazy! AJ had a career year and he shouldn't be our #1 anymore??? :gun: The only thing this offense needs to be successful is for the right side of the OL to start to jell. Once that happens and the running game takes off again everything else will fall into place.

tru80texan
01-19-2013, 01:58 PM
There is no excuse. I have no problem replacing Walter. He should of been replaced a couple of years ago. But replacing him is far down the list of important moves this team needs to make this offseason.

You got to start somewhere. And what better way to get started then freeing up 3-3.5M to address the needs that you are referring to? Walter is eating up money & space. Money is key & freeing it up 1st is essential imo.

theNumber80
01-19-2013, 02:04 PM
I love Andre, but he can't be our #1 going into next season. We need someone now who can feasibly be better than Andre. Posey's Achilles pretty much takes him out of that equation.

We need to draft a WR who could conceivably a #1 on other teams & let him compete, on the field, for that position..... a Torey Smith to Anquan Bolden, or a Julio Jones to Roddy White.

I know we're not going to replace Andre in one season, but the point is we can't be targeting WRs to take Walter's spot. Walter is done as a WR inmo, Andre clearly has that spot. We need to fill #1, #3, & #4...... I think we've got good candidates for 3 & 4 already on the team, we need someone better than all of them.

This is possibly the dumbest statement I've ever heard. There's only 2-3 receivers in the league that would be a #1 on this team. Calvin, AJ Green, and Larry Fitzgerald are the only players who would actually have a chance at being the #1 receiver on this team. Calvin definitely, Green and Fitz arguable. Other than that, we're not gonna find a "#1". Andre Johnson is the DEFINITION of a #1 receiver and you want to replace that? He still has 2-3 elite years left in him as long as he stays healthy. We're gonna have to draft a receiver in the first round if you want a potential Andre and even then making a rookie the #1 is stupid.

tru80texan
01-19-2013, 02:06 PM
They are not bashing AJ. Their point is not to wait until AJ can no longer perform at a high level; get a top flight WR now while AJ is still good before it happens out of an act of desperation.

I agree, but kubiak & smith seem to be taking the "develop" a player approach at that position as opposed to drafting 1 that is ready to go. There was sense of urgency to address wr last season by everyone except the Texans FO obviously. With 3 young wrs & Andre still playing at a high level I don't think that has exactly raised any more concerns this season then it did last season w/ the FO.

I agree a future #1 wr needs to be found before its too late, but I'm perfectly fine w/ Andre remaining the #1 wr next season which is what the other individual believed could not happen. I politely disagree.

welsh texan
01-19-2013, 02:12 PM
Nobody in this thread has 'bashed' Andre at all, what myself and TK have said is that whilst a couple of years back Smithiak needed to address the WR2 position, at this stage they need to be planning to eventually replace the WR1 position, with a guy who can be WR2 immediately and at some stage as AJ inevitably declines, they will gradually swap places.

Who, in the history of Smithiak, have you seen them take that had even a remote chance of filling that space? I've not seen it, I doubt, at this stage, their ability to identify the requisite talent at the position to ease that transition, maybe best case scenario is another 5 years of AJ being top 10 and capable of beating double coverage, but you can't exactly expect that of him.

We know that on average WRs take 3 years to realise their potential in this league, what are you in favour of doing? Wait it out and hope for the best or act now for immediate improvement and be ready when the time comes.

Ill give you another benefit of what were suggesting here, say Schaubs contract means were stuck with him at least 2 years, in that time whatever we do with the Oline will have had its time to gel, and we'll likely be starting a rookie/inexperienced QB. You want that guy to be throwing at a mid-30s AJ and a bunch of JAGs or to have some talent to look at beyond the Oline.

Everybody worships AJ around here and for good reason, but it shouldn't be sacrosanct to question his ability to handle the load in 2 or 3 years time when he's approaching 15 years in the league. It would be blind not to consider life after the great man's physical prowess declines to a stage when he can't do that anymore.

You want to see how Kevin Walter, Lestar Jean etc cope when the guy across from them isn't worthy of double coverage?

thunderkyss
01-19-2013, 02:34 PM
This is possibly the dumbest statement I've ever heard. There's only 2-3 receivers in the league that would be a #1 on this team. Calvin, AJ Green, and Larry Fitzgerald are the only players who would actually have a chance at being the #1 receiver on this team. Calvin definitely, Green and Fitz arguable. Other than that, we're not gonna find a "#1". Andre Johnson is the DEFINITION of a #1 receiver and you want to replace that? He still has 2-3 elite years left in him as long as he stays healthy. We're gonna have to draft a receiver in the first round if you want a potential Andre and even then making a rookie the #1 is stupid.

As stupid as it may sound, I presented a couple of examples to better explain what I'm thinking. Roddy White is still #1 in Atlanta, but Julio Jones is fighting for that spot. Anquan Bolden is still #1 in Baltimore, but Torrey Smith is fighting for that spot.

Marvin Harris was the #1 receiver in Indy, but Reggis Wayne was always knocking on that door.

I don't want to go into the draft targeting a #2 WR.

thunderkyss
01-19-2013, 02:41 PM
Nobody in this thread has 'bashed' Andre at all, what myself and TK have said is that whilst a couple of years back Smithiak needed to address the WR2 position, at this stage they need to be planning to eventually replace the WR1 position, with a guy who can be WR2 immediately and at some stage as AJ inevitably declines, they will gradually swap places.


Agreed. Last year the focus was to find a replacement for Walter, we got Posey & Martin. The idea was always to replace Walter & we've brought in Dorin Dickerson, LeStar Jean, Jacoby Jones and similar talent. Not only have we missed the mark, but we fell way below the mark & not one of these guys were able to successfully unseat the blocking King.

We need to raise our sights, aim for the stars & hopefully hit the moon.

76Texan
01-19-2013, 02:57 PM
Agreed. Last year the focus was to find a replacement for Walter, we got Posey & Martin. The idea was always to replace Walter & we've brought in Dorin Dickerson, LeStar Jean, Jacoby Jones and similar talent. Not only have we missed the mark, but we fell way below the mark & not one of these guys were able to successfully unseat the blocking King.

We need to raise our sights, aim for the stars & hopefully hit the moon.

With the contract AJ signed, I think the Texans look forward to AJ being here another 4-5 years.

If that's their plan, I don't think they will try to draft a replacement in another couple of years. Just my thinking.

tru80texan
01-19-2013, 03:01 PM
As stupid as it may sound, I presented a couple of examples to better explain what I'm thinking. Roddy White is still #1 in Atlanta, but Julio Jones is fighting for that spot. Anquan Bolden is still #1 in Baltimore, but Torrey Smith is fighting for that spot.

Marvin Harris was the #1 receiver in Indy, but Reggis Wayne was always knocking on that door.

I don't want to go into the draft targeting a #2 WR.

I actually couldn't agree more. In fact, this is how I & many others felt last season. The problem is most believe a high draft pick must be used to accomplish acquiring a wr w/ true #1 wr potential. That's why I mentioned earlier that despite the Texans seemingly being in worst shape at wr last season they still chose not to go that route. Andre & Walter were the only 2 givens to make the roster & they still chose to wait to address wr in the 3rd & 4th rd.
That was a risky move imo, but its how it was addressed. After Jean, Martin, Posey, & even Maehl(who could replace Walter) all gained experience, I can't see the FO changing their philosophy & addressing wr w/ a high pick. The young guys gained experience & the situation was more dire going into last season, but was addressed w/out urgency or concern for obtaing a potential #1 wr. I'm not saying I agree w/ it but based on how they handled it last season I have my doubts that wr will be a priority this season either.

thunderkyss
01-19-2013, 03:09 PM
I actually couldn't agree more. In fact, this is how I & many others felt last season. The problem is most believe a high draft pick must be used to accomplish acquiring a wr w/ true #1 wr potential. That's why I mentioned earlier that despite the Texans seemingly being in worst shape at wr last season they still chose not to go that route. Andre & Walter were the only 2 givens to make the roster & they still chose to wait to address wr in the 3rd & 4th rd.
That was a risky move imo, but its how it was addressed. After Jean, Martin, Posey, & even Maehl(who could replace Walter) all gained experience, I can't see the FO changing their philosophy & addressing wr w/ a high pick. The young guys gained experience & the situation was more dire going into last season, but was addressed w/out urgency or concern for obtaing a potential #1 wr. I'm not saying I agree w/ it but based on how they handled it last season I have my doubts that wr will be a priority this season either.

& I believe the gamble on Posey was to get a true play maker on the field. Had he not blown his achilles, I'd be the last person talking about drafting a WR in the first. Drafting him in 2012, targeting #2 like, 1b production in 2013... I'm good with that & it looked like it was working.

Had it been a hamstring, even an ACL, it would be different. An achilles is career changing, maybe even career ending for a WR.

We can't go in to the draft thinking we'll get a guy who will produce next season, we need a guy who can produce now.

infantrycak
01-19-2013, 03:10 PM
I am by no means against planning for the future but this is what I responded to - " he can't be our #1 going into next season."

That is flat out stupidity with AJ coming off an almost 1600 yd season. There isn't anyone coming out in this draft who could lick the brake dust off AJ's wheels much less supplant him as #1 next season.

theNumber80
01-19-2013, 03:19 PM
I am by no means against planning for the future but this is what I responded to - " he can't be our #1 going into next season."

That is flat out stupidity with AJ coming off an almost 1600 yd season. There isn't anyone coming out in this draft who could lick the brake dust off AJ's wheels much less supplant him as #1 next season.

This x100. Almost every team in the league would be happy with Andre being their #1 receiver heading into the season. If we want our next #1 receiver it's gonna have to be in the first round. He'll replace Kevin Walter and when Andre hangs it up he'll somewhat be able to fill his cleats. No one in this draft or free agency is good enough to just take Andre's spot instantly. Only 2-3 people in the world could actually do that...Until Andre shows he's CLEARLY slowing down, a #1 receiver isn't an issue. A QB, NT, and a number TWO to take the pressure off AJ all come before that.

ReliantTexan
01-19-2013, 03:29 PM
Really? Foster is very good in the passing game. He just wasn't used enough this year. OD had one of his better years this year. How many passes did he have to make great catches and how many passed did he catch and get hit right away? Thats on the QB. Foster had 40 receptions for a little over 200 yds , he was no dynamic weapon in the passing game, at least not this season.

Don't get me wrong, OD had a good year and is still a solid player but he hasn't looked the same to me since he blew his knee out in 09, doesn't have the YAC ability or get the separation he used to.



Really? And what good did it do us? He only caught 6 passes all season. I rest my case.He didn't even get significant snaps until week 13. Still made more plays than Walter the last 5 games of the season (including playoffs).

tru80texan
01-19-2013, 03:30 PM
& I believe the gamble on Posey was to get a true play maker on the field. Had he not blown his achilles, I'd be the last person talking about drafting a WR in the first. Drafting him in 2012, targeting #2 like, 1b production in 2013... I'm good with that & it looked like it was working.

Had it been a hamstring, even an ACL, it would be different. An achilles is career changing, maybe even career ending for a WR.

We can't go in to the draft thinking we'll get a guy who will produce next season, we need a guy who can produce now.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fespn.go.com%2Fnfl%2Fstory%2F_%2Fi d%2F6932844%2Fdemaryius-thomas-denver-broncos-back-achilles-injury&ei=Zf_6UP2LEYno8gTk8YHADw&usg=AFQjCNElLCtvoC6slSgJFIw_ARdvde73ug
I understand the concern that surround Achilles injuries, but Demaryius Thomas had one early in 2011 & returned for the start of the 2011 season. The link is his story on his return. We can all agree that Thomas is playing at a high level so it is possible to resume a productive career imo.

I think these injuries are starting to evolve similar to ACL's & players are recovering quicker & returning to have productive careers. DeMeco & Thomas are examples of that. I'm not sure if Posey is #1wr material, but he is showing potential to be at least #2 wr material. Time will tell.

thunderkyss
01-19-2013, 03:47 PM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fespn.go.com%2Fnfl%2Fstory%2F_%2Fi d%2F6932844%2Fdemaryius-thomas-denver-broncos-back-achilles-injury&ei=Zf_6UP2LEYno8gTk8YHADw&usg=AFQjCNElLCtvoC6slSgJFIw_ARdvde73ug
I understand the concern that surround Achilles injuries, but Demaryius Thomas had one early in 2011 & returned for the start of the 2011 season. The link is his story on his return. We can all agree that Thomas is playing at a high level so it is possible to resume a productive career imo.

I think these injuries are starting to evolve similar to ACL's & players are recovering quicker & returning to have productive careers. DeMeco & Thomas are examples of that. I'm not sure if Posey is #1wr material, but he is showing potential to be at least #2 wr material. Time will tell.

Thanks, that's good info.

mussop
01-19-2013, 09:18 PM
Foster had 40 receptions for a little over 200 yds , he was no dynamic weapon in the passing game, at least not this season.

That doesn't mean he's not one. Foster is one of the top dual threats in the NFL. The fact that he only caught 40 passes all year just shows he was under utilized.

As far as OD goes, did you see how many really good catches he made this year? If it weren't for him Schaubs QB rating would be way down. It's not his fault that he doesn't have a QB that can hit him in stride. I don't know how many times OD got creamed after making a good catch this year but it was a lot.

Im really not arguing that walter shouldn't be replaced. Im for upgrading every position on the team if its possible. However I think replacing Walter with anyone other than a top notch FA is going to be a waste of resources and time in the short term. Short term meaning next year. I don't know how much a top FA would improve the #2 WR spots production. Remember who we have at QB?

You give any good QB that can read a defense and make good audibles and give him OD, Johnson and Foster and he will tear it up. Schaub has them and well, they are not enough. He needs more. Is more really going to make a difference?

It wont matter who is playing the #2 WR as long as Schaub is the QB and Kubiak is in charge of the offense. Kubiak is either a control freak or he doesn't trust Schaub to do anything but what he is told. Either way thats not good for us.

Man next year is going to be stressful . We are not even going to be able enjoy Winning unless its against a really good team.

tru80texan
01-19-2013, 09:39 PM
That doesn't mean he's not one. Foster is one of the top dual threats in the NFL. The fact that he only caught 40 passes all year just shows he was under utilized.

As far as OD goes, did you see how many really good catches he made this year? If it weren't for him Schaubs QB rating would be way down. It's not his fault that he doesn't have a QB that can hit him in stride. I don't know how many times OD got creamed after making a good catch this year but it was a lot.

Im really not arguing that walter shouldn't be replaced. Im for upgrading every position on the team if its possible. However I think replacing Walter with anyone other than a top notch FA is going to be a waste of resources and time in the short term. Short term meaning next year. I don't know how much a top FA would improve the #2 WR spots production. Remember who we have at QB?

You give any good QB that can read a defense and make good audibles and give him OD, Johnson and Foster and he will tear it up. Schaub has them and well, they are not enough. He needs more. Is more really going to make a difference?

It wont matter who is playing the #2 WR as long as Schaub is the QB and Kubiak is in charge of the offense. Kubiak is either a control freak or he doesn't trust Schaub to do anything but what he is told. Either way thats not good for us.

Man next year is going to be stressful . We are not even going to be able enjoy Winning unless its against a really good team.

Who in your opinion is a "top notch" FA? Jerome Simpson? Devery Henderson? Ramses Barden? I'm mean when it's all said done this is probably the group that you would be looking at assuming the Texans are only willing to sign someone for money similar to what Walter is/was making. IMO all of these guys offer more potential then Walter & could actually be had for a cheaper price if you consider Simpson made 2M this season & Walter is due to make in the 3-3.5M area.

I don't think the Texans need a big name playmaker, but they do need someone who will at least force the other team to account for them or they could be burned. That is not the case w/ Walter. I'm not real impressed/ the FA group of wr's, but 1 thing is for sure...most have more to offer then Walter & potentially for less money.

I do agree on the wins. I will be happy w/ a win, but I will have a hard time being convinced or satisfied by them until it's against the likes of NE, Denver, SF, & even Seattle. We need to expect more against the better teams & quit being easily satisfied & impressed w/ wins against the likes of Jacksonville & Buffalo IMO.

gafftop
01-22-2013, 09:54 PM
OMG! This is ridiculous!!!!! Please describe the kind of players you want to add "AROUND" Schaub and then explain how he (SCHAUB) is going to be able to utilize them. He already has three of the best weapons of any offense in the NFL and he has a FB that is as versatile and has as good of play making ability as any other FB in the league. (Don't even bring up his drop in the playoff game)

You want to replace Walter fine. Im ok with that. But if you think that player is going to make a huge difference you are crazy.

Agree 100%. Matt is Matt. His skill set does not allow him to utilize top talent. How many times has Matt under thrown AJ. How many times has Matt missed seeing the open receiver. We are not even taking into consideration the plays they are unable to call because Matt cannot even make the throw.

Must get the Defense better. I think with Ms as qb the only way this team goes deep in playoff or even make the playoffs next year is with a better D. It seems to me that early in the season when the Texans were producing points the D was creating short fields for the Offense.

Walter should have been gone last year. MS should not have been extended. Who do you blame Gary or Rick? Should be the GM if we had a real GM.

imatexan
01-22-2013, 10:50 PM
One thing I like about KW is that he is pretty consistent.

Never really has big injury problems and always puts up at least decent numbers.

Could we do better? Yes and I am all for it if we can get someone in who is better.

Could we do worse? Yes.

gafftop
01-25-2013, 08:37 AM
If he signs for vet minimum, I don't mind keeping him around. Even then, I would be worried that he keeps them from upgrading the position entirely.

What would be the vet minimum for Walter? If around 1.5 I would agree.

infantrycak
01-25-2013, 10:02 AM
What would be the vet minimum for Walter? If around 1.5 I would agree.

$820k.

gafftop
01-25-2013, 11:24 AM
$820k.

I think for that amount I would definitely keep him.
thanks

ArlingtonTexan
01-25-2013, 11:40 AM
Kevin Walter is literally clogging up the WR situation both on the roster and from a scheme standpoint. He has to be schemed open and ofers little ability to turn a short pass into a longer gain. also, as long as he is here he is going to take up snaps that players who have a shot to get better should be getting.

deucetx
01-25-2013, 11:56 AM
Kevin Walter is literally clogging up the WR situation both on the roster and from a scheme standpoint. He has to be schemed open and ofers little ability to turn a short pass into a longer gain. also, as long as he is here he is going to take up snaps that players who have a shot to get better should be getting.

Exactly. It is about more than just his salary. It's about roster space especially since Kubes generally goes 5 receivers. It's about taking snaps from developing players. Plus...what the heck does he give you anyway? As another thread illustrated by linking an article from PFF, Walter is one of the lower yards per route ran in the league. He just doesn't offer much to remain on the roster honestly.

gafftop
01-25-2013, 11:58 AM
I hear you. I hope the coaching staff has the sense to use him as a backup but if not then they probably don't have the sense to get rid of him either. I just think at 1 mill he is worht it to have on the team.

HouTx11
01-25-2013, 04:37 PM
If the Texans continue to utilize Walter I don't fault Walter for putting on the pads and jersey and hitting the field as he does. The problem is not and has never been Walter.

The problem is either a. The Texans are unwilling to bring in a true #2, or b. The Texans have brought in WRs hoping for a true #2 to develop, but the WRs haven't made their way to that level yet. I must say I am extremely disappointed that Lestar Jean didn't have a much bigger impact this season!

Rey
01-25-2013, 05:13 PM
Kevin Walter is literally clogging up the WR situation both on the roster and from a scheme standpoint. He has to be schemed open and ofers little ability to turn a short pass into a longer gain. also, as long as he is here he is going to take up snaps that players who have a shot to get better should be getting.

I wouldn't mind Walter being WR depth.

I still think that he could serve a purpose on short routes making possession type catches when we need TD's or First downs...


I don't understand how Kubiak chooses to use players though, so I'd guess that's a pipe dream.

thunderkyss
01-25-2013, 06:06 PM
I must say I am extremely disappointed that Lestar Jean didn't have a much bigger impact this season!

Who knows? Most likely it was Kubiak's puckering sphincter than kept Jean off the field. Maybe he'll feel more comfortable with him next year.

tru80texan
01-25-2013, 07:27 PM
If the Texans continue to utilize Walter I don't fault Walter for putting on the pads and jersey and hitting the field as he does. The problem is not and has never been Walter.

The problem is either a. The Texans are unwilling to bring in a true #2, or b. The Texans have brought in WRs hoping for a true #2 to develop, but the WRs haven't made their way to that level yet. I must say I am extremely disappointed that Lestar Jean didn't have a much bigger impact this season!

You & me both. I had high hopes for Jean this season. It seems Martin was the only one getting any kinda of look early in the season. Jean had his knee issue, but never seemed to get going or in the mix after he recovered. Once kubiak moved on from Martin he slid straight to Posey. I think Jean has potential & will be looking for him. Hopefully he will get a true opportunity as opposed to a handful of plays w/ most of them w/ him just run blocking.

Surreal McCoy
01-26-2013, 02:37 AM
Who knows? Most likely it was Kubiak's puckering sphincter than kept Jean off the field. Maybe he'll feel more comfortable with him next year.

Not if he can't learn to get free at the LOS.

Wolf6151
01-26-2013, 04:12 AM
While I agree that Walter isn't the best #2 and we need an upgrade, I think he's back next year in a necessary evil sort of way. Posey won't be back in time for the season, Martin is barely a #3 in the slot, and Jean is or should be on the bubble of making the team. If we select a really good WR in the 1st round, someone with lots of potential for the future, then maybe we cut Walter in the offseason but that's a stretch. I just don't see a rookie being able to step up and learn our offense and the NFL well enough to take over at #2WR from day 1. WR much like CB takes a couple years to translate from college to the NFL.

thunderkyss
01-26-2013, 07:47 AM
While I agree that Walter isn't the best #2 and we need an upgrade, I think he's back next year in a necessary evil sort of way. Posey won't be back in time for the season, Martin is barely a #3 in the slot, and Jean is or should be on the bubble of making the team. If we select a really good WR in the 1st round, someone with lots of potential for the future, then maybe we cut Walter in the offseason but that's a stretch. I just don't see a rookie being able to step up and learn our offense and the NFL well enough to take over at #2WR from day 1. WR much like CB takes a couple years to translate from college to the NFL.

Good points, but Walter isn't a #2, he only plays one on TV. Making it easier to be replaced by LeStar, Martin, or a really talented rookie with Great hands.

Hopefully we'll bring in two capable WRs & it becomes a roster spot problem. I don't mind keeping KDub if he earns a spot through open competition.

TejasTom
01-26-2013, 02:07 PM
Good points, but Walter isn't a #2, he only plays one on TV...

I'm not a number 2 receiver but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.


Posted using Tapatalk from my phone. May contain errors.

sandman
01-30-2013, 02:56 PM
Foster had 40 receptions for a little over 200 yds , he was no dynamic weapon in the passing game, at least not this season.

Don't get me wrong, OD had a good year and is still a solid player but he hasn't looked the same to me since he blew his knee out in 09, doesn't have the YAC ability or get the separation he used to.



He didn't even get significant snaps until week 13. Still made more plays than Walter the last 5 games of the season (including playoffs).

Foster has 160 receptions and 1500 yards over the last three years. The decision not to utilize him as much this year MAY have been the need to save him for the rushing load he needed to carry because Ben Tate couldn't stay healthy.

And did you notice that he had 15 receptions, 100 yards and a TD in the two playoff games? Foster's ability to catch the ball out of the backfield is NOT one of the problems on this team.

As far as OD goes, this was his best season in four years, second best of his career, and he set a career high in TD catches. His YAC was 5.5 whereas 5.6 is his career average. He has only had two seasons when it was 6.0 or higher. Again, it wasn't Gronk-like stats, but statistically this will go down as one of his best years.

With Schaub throwing every third ball Andre's way because he wasn't good in his progressions, there is no way in hell any other receiver is going to have more than 60-65 receptions.

As with Foster, OD is not the reason the passing game is not dynamic.

417Texan
01-30-2013, 03:56 PM
Lot of servicable f/agent this upcoming year in Free agency.